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I suppose we might … 29 September 2007

Posted by marisacat in Inconvenient Voice of the Voter.
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An early Piranesi drawing features a pastiche of ancient temples and a piazza with obelisks.  [Photo: Pierpont Morgan Library]

Article: For Piranesi, Imagination Trumps Classical Boundaries

I suppose we might …come home from “Empire” but doubt I will live to see it…

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1. BooHooHooMan - 29 September 2007

Oh that your doubts would be unfounded, mcat.

I suppose we might …come home from “Empire” but doubt I will live to see it…

2. Madman in the Marketplace - 29 September 2007

if anything, we’ll vote for more weapons, more death, more Empire.

I expect general cheering for the home team if they bomb Iran.

3. Marie - 29 September 2007

ms_xeno – #111 &112 prior thread (and still have to get back to all the other goodies posted as I tried to find out who the hell ran in 1988 and then got sidetracked into taking a look at the DLC). At the PR level the GOP will always have an advantage because it feeds on entrenched American myths of individualism, etc. It’s simple, simplistic and seductive. The DLC feeds on that same crap which was the point in the beginning. Clinton’s win in ’92, after 12 years of GOP WH control, gave them a lot of political capital and they used it. The true believers like the Clintons, who essentially control that faction, dominate a lot of what we’re seeing out of Congress these days. (I left more on this at the bottom of the last thread.) I’ve sensed that many of those early members began to have doubts after the ’04 midterms and as they observed all the other anti-New Deal legislation that Clinton embraced.

What I wanted to respond to was the selection of Lieberman for VP – IMHO that was the pound of flesh the DLC extracted from Gore in 2000. For financial reasons he couldn’t do without them. And they were truly pissed when he began sounding like a populist in his acceptance speech. His endorsement of Dean was like a big FU to them at the end of 2003. Granted I’m reading around the edges and between the lines. He’s built a power base independent of them, something he didn’t have in the past. Yet, it also seems difficult for him to completely cut his ties to anything or anyone. So, it would disappoint me but not completely surprise me if he endorsed Hillary. That would mean that he plans to remain focused on environmental issues and appreciates that being inside DC is more powerful than being an outsider. (Not sure why anyone like him would trust them not to stiff him again, but he’s more forgiving and trusting than I am.) Anyway, whatever happens it will give us a more complete picture of the relationship among these people and where Gore really stands.

4. wu ming - 29 September 2007

i’m just trying to get my potatoes in before they drop the bombs.

5. Marie - 29 September 2007

Marisa, noticed that Zoe Lofgren was on the DLC member list . What’s the deal with her? I thought she was more liberal than that or am I confusing her with someone else?

6. wu ming - 29 September 2007

speaking of the DLC and new dems, one thing i’ve been thinking about recently is who exactly the BBBs were intended to coopt and divert.

my gut feeling about dKos is that a whole lot of the people who started flooding into the blogs in ’03 were white collar new dems in the 90s who were so horrified with the way things were going (esp. the dem roll-over-and-piss-themselves act that came in ’02 (and even worse, not winning anything while doing so)) that they started to get a wee bit radicalized, and listen now and then to the out-in-the-cold left. while the dean thing was more politically diverse than just that (i noticed a lot of perot and a lot of nader voters at the early meetups, FWIW), that moment did seem to be getting a lot of those people to start questioning their political assumptions in some rather radical ways at times.

and they flooded into places like dKos in ’04.

as the blog heeling got more pronounced, the focus was on reining those old new dems back in, keeping them away from the lefties, frustrating what seemed to me to be an emerging consensus hostile to the new dems and the DLC, not just on winning elections, but on real ideological grounds as well. dean’s stuff really resonated.

they’ve largely been successful at doing so, but for a moment there, it really seemed like people were cutting anchor.

i know this isn’t really news, but it just finally fell into place for me that it wasn’t as much about lefties as about wavering new dems, and dividing that emerging consensus.

7. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

that’s why so many of us more strident, independent commentors and posters were bullied and banned, wu ming.

We tried to warn you all (and Marisa was the one who woke me up to what they were up to, for which I thank her). I can’t tell you the number of people who I used to have good conversations with who sent nasty emails, delinked LSF from their own blogs, after the powers that be banned me.

It continues to amaze me how averse people are to uncomfortable questions and boisterous debate. Herd animals, nearly this entire fucking country.

8. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007
9. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

High School Security Guards Attack Teen With Cell Phone Camera Then Frame Him

Gonna try to get some sleep now … I’ve got to quit reading this stuff before bedtime.

10. wu ming - 30 September 2007

exactly. and the sad thing is that, before things got really bad, there were the beginnings of a lot of very productive discussions that got chewed up in the aftermath.

11. wu ming - 30 September 2007

whoa, WTF are security guards doing in a school anyway? i mean, we had some “be cool-stay in school” DARE cop who spent some time on our HS campus, but beefy shades-wearing security guards?

what’s next, blackwater? jesus.

12. Marie - 30 September 2007

wu ming and MitM – the factions and shifting alliances is probably impossible to keep track of. When I first landed on Atrios and dKos they were both pretty vanilla flavored anti-GWB. Atrios was a Gore guy and pissed about 2000. Kos was less defined; just generic DEM at the time and probably infused with an entrepeunuer’s spirit of making some money instead of promoting a specific political agenda beyond DEM. The shift began with the arrival of the clarkies that spring. Marisa and I disagree but I still don’t think there as anything nefarious about Kos’ initial attraction to Clark – is was just military hero worship from a superficial guy who didn’t hesitate to take money from the Dean campaign even though he was never truly on board with Dean. What I now think that Marisa got right is that they affiliiated with the NDN. I failed to appreciate that NDN was unofficially affiliated with the DLC – bought into the crap that they were independent. Would now guess that Kos started getting funding around the time Clark entered the primary race in ’03 (easy enough to justify since he never claimed to be doing anything other than tech consulting for Dean). May well have funded the conversion to scoop.

You’re probably right that the BBB were ’90s New Dems but it unlikely that they knew much and only thought of themselves as Clinton DEMs. They’ve never been radicalized from what I’ve seen. Only somewhat more conscious of being New DEMs or more invested in it since some of them are making money off it.

So, my take is that the boys started their blogs first and the funding and affiliiations with DEM orgs came second. May have been seen as a cheaper way to do what “Media Whores on-line” originally set out to do. They work awfully hard at trying to keep people in line and welcome the assistance of campaign operatives in that effort. But I tend to think that they mostly preach to the choir and don’t get many converts.

13. Paul - 30 September 2007

We need a big mobilization which is not compromised by posuers.

14. Marie - 30 September 2007

MitM #7 – they always hated me. Never had any good conversations with any of them. Not sure why I wasn’t banned long ago – might be because I failed to totally piss off MB and Bob, say what you will about those two, but they are more liberal then the rest of the gang.

15. Paul - 30 September 2007

Those guards who broke the girl’s arm need to be in prison.

I would deal out justice to any man who breaks the arm of a girl.

These people must be locked up, not merely fired.

I want to know much more about this case.

16. Paul - 30 September 2007

That cop should go to prison and remain there as long as necessary to protect the children from him.

17. Paul - 30 September 2007

I don’t know what I’d do about a rogue cop breaking a child’s arm in my presence.

I might have to give such a man a swift kick to the head and make a citizens arrest.

The breaking of a child’s arm cannot be merely observed by an ethical person.

Immediate action must be taken in such a case.

18. marisacat - 30 September 2007

kraant diary at PFF, a snip from one of the inside Burma blogs I listed yesterday (or whenever):

http://ko-htike.blogspot.com

Telephone conversation with a members of public

Er… they shot… people got killed. Er…but it seems like it wasn’t as bad as yesterday in terms of number of deaths, however we will know
the accurate picture tomorrow.

Er… la another disturbing news is that er… I would like to know if you would inform BBC and CNN about? (sob!!!) They burned the injured protesters/civilian people in the
YaeWay Crematorium la la .

Er… the staff from crematorium told this,
crying, to the people who went to the funeral service. Please let
this known to CNN and BBC. Thank you!!

19. marisacat - 30 September 2007

I have to say from Thursday to today, the local media here has interviewed local dissident Burmese groups as well as a couple core people from Tiananmen.

Nobody was hopeful, they expected this. Raw crushing brutality.

20. wu ming - 30 September 2007

monstrous.

21. marisacat - 30 September 2007

here is the link to yahoo news, Myanmar coverage

the top story (8 minutes ago at 2:02 am PDT) indicates the UN Envoy has met with Aung Sun suu

22. BooHooHooMan - 30 September 2007

I am not a lawyer –human, actually, but I think four crimes should be codified as our most serious crimes:
1. Rape – Life
2. Murder in the First Degree.50 – Life
3. Official Barbarism (catchy, eh?) – Life —
Give em back “the reasonable man” pallaver in adjudging unlawful use of force given standard police operating procedures delineated by Community Police oversight boards complete with indictment and prosecutorial resources. They would have the power to hire prosecutors directly or “sub out” like Publlic Defenders offices do.. (hmmm ACLU payday? me likey) Hell, there are standards of care determined (in theory at least) so hacks don’t maim or kill someone on an OR table–it’s too much to expect our cops don’t brutalize or club the populace damn near into the Hereafter?

As fancifully entitled as conceived, I’d have a whole host of charges in such an Official Barbarism Act

Minimum 30 for various crimes of degree.

Other possibilities, for example, Evidence or Witness Tampering in any case would bring the maximum penalty the accused would have been exposed to in a bullshit/ cop- filed charge.

Plain Ole False Arrest – one year for every day a defendent is jailed awaiting trial….

False Arrest resulting in conviction or incarceration how’s a mandatory 50 to life sound?
Police Intimidation might be a felonious class of Terrorist Threats Upon the Citizenry.

Throw on a minimum 10 to 20 for a catch-all Malicious Prosecution category for violating any of the Community Policing boards’ standards or committing any other criminal code infraction while supposedly in “Service” to the rest of us…

These are my seriously-have-had-it views despite my jesting manner…there is one other in my list of Crimes Against Society yet here I am only half serious, no one can be that cruel nor could we house all the Birdmen …:

4. Bribery / Official Corruption 50 – Life or an evening with the Singing Senators

23. marisacat - 30 September 2007

I read an interesting thing the other day… serial crime interests me. And America is a pleasure palace for both serial rapists and serial murderers. Certainly has been all my life…

I read that few states require counting of John/Jane Does as part of murder count. Nor do they require that the cases the b left open and part of statistics.

California is one that does, require counting and stats kept and so on…. And they always have way too many bodies for Missing Persons reports.

A destablised, destablising nation is a play ground for violence.

Anyway, right on cue (BBC):

‘Kurd attack’ kills 12 in Turkey

The attack follows the recent killing of a senior PKK figure

Twelve people have been killed after Kurdish separatists ordered them off a bus in south-east Turkey and opened fire, Turkish officials say.
Civilians and armed guards were said to be among the victims of the ambush, and just two passengers survived.

The attack, in Sirnak province near the Iraqi border, followed the killing of a Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) leader.

On Friday Iraq and Turkey signed a security agreement aimed at curbing the activities of the banned PKK.

The Turkish government in Ankara says 4,000 PKK fighters are operating from the Iraqi side of the border.

Turkey has been considering crossing the border to pursue the group. [snip]

24. marisacat - 30 September 2007

Just noticed this at Danny Schechter’s site:

BEHIND THE PROTESTS (PINR)

The first sign of the current protests currently underway in Myanmar occurred in a rare display of public outrage over the economic conditions within the country in February 2007.

A small group calling themselves the Myanmar Development Committee called on the military rulers to address consumer prices, lack of health care, education and the poor electricity infrastructure.

Normally unseen in Myanmar, the protest was quickly broken up after only 30 minutes of activity. Likely in response to the protests, the ruling military junta appointed Brigadier-General Than Han of the Myanmar police to the responsibility of handling civil unrest in Rangoon.

On August 15, 2007, the government made significant cuts to national fuel subsidies, which had an immediate effect of increasing the price of diesel fuel by a reported 100 percent, causing a five-fold increase in the price of compressed natural gas, and placing additional inflationary pressure on an economy already facing estimated inflation levels of 17.7 percent in 2005 and 21.4 percent in 2006.

http://www.pinr.org

25. marisacat - 30 September 2007

LOL The happy pick of industry;)

Hilary Clinton is not a populist by temperament. She had been a powerful corporate lawyer in Little Rock, accustomed to covert deals behind closed doors. When health care reformers,

Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein urged Mrs Clinton in early 1993 to use that small window of opportunity to take on the insurance industry and bring in a Canadian-style system and that the majority of all Americans would support her, she answered contemptuously to Himmelstein, “tell me something interesting”. As she embarked on her mission, all the early headlines concerned her obsession with secrecy.

By the time Mrs Clinton’s 1342-page Bill landed in Congress later in 1993, she had managed to offend the very Democratic leadership essential to making health reform a reality. The proposal itself, under the mystic mantra ‘Managed Competition’, embodied all the distinctive tropes of neo-liberalism: a naive complicity with the darker corporate ftorces, accompanied by an adamant refusal to even consider building the popular political coalition that alone could have faced and routed the opposition.

and a bit more… what the hell…

So ‘health reform’ in the present age means, at best, a slight cosmetic adjustment, and so it is with Mrs Clinton’s new plan, modelled on a scheme adopted in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, whereby everybody is legally compelled to have some type of health insurance.

As Drs Woolhandler and Himmelstein recently described it on this site the Massachusetts plan spells out as compulsory ruin.

A couple in their fifties face a minimum annual premium of $8,638. Their policy has no coverage for prescription medicines, and there’s a $2,000 deductible per person before the insurance even kicks in. In other words, they’re destroyed by the insurance costs, before they are plunged into bankruptcy with the arrival of any serious illness.

So, for all these reasons, no one–probably not even its author–takes Mrs Clinton’s plan very seriously. They all know that in this decade, far more than in the early 1990s, the darker forces are firmly in control.

Oh let’s cut to the chase… Bill and Hill are part of the dark forces.

Cue the thunder.

26. Miss Devore - 30 September 2007

from SJ Mercury News:

“The depth of California’s educational crisis was demonstrated – for the umpteenth time – this week when national test results on reading and mathematics skills of fourth- and eighth-graders showed California scraping bottom in state-to-state rankings.

Only fourth-graders in Washington, D.C., schools, for instance, performed lower than California’s in the federal government’s National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) – and, not surprisingly, scores among black and Latino students were especially low.”

27. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

Marie:

“…That would mean that he plans to remain focused on environmental issues and appreciates that being inside DC is more powerful than being an outsider…”

The “inside power” of taking on a Right-Wing, Bible-thumping psycho for your running mate and participating in bullshit like carbon-trading. The latter being right up there with Hillthatcher’s compulsory insurance just one more chance to beat up on the poor while touting one’s own “compassion.”

IOW, he’s a sweet-talking straw boss, or perhaps a wannabe’. Dean, I suppose, would be a real straw boss. For whatever that’s worth.

I remain utterly bewildered that anyone still continues to make excuses for Gore (or Dean) and the never-ending series of frauds they continue to push on us. I can’t stomach it. But no doubt if things really go to shit for poor Hillthatcher next Fall, she’ll snap her fingers and Gore will come running;Eager to rally the wayward flock back to the polls and the “big tent” unity of getting screwed in every orifice by nice people who “feel your pain.”

It’s not exactly new at this point. Gore cares about one person’s destiny: Al Gore’s. The rest of us can go take a flying leap.

28. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007
29. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

McCain: I’d Prefer Christian President

WASHINGTON — Sen. John McCain said in an interview published Saturday that he would prefer a Christian president over someone of a different faith, calling it “an important part of our qualifications to lead.”

In an interview with Beliefnet, a multi-denominational Web site that covers religion and spirituality, the Republican presidential hopeful was asked if a Muslim candidate could be a good president.

“I just have to say in all candor that since this nation was founded primarily on Christian principles … personally, I prefer someone who I know who has a solid grounding in my faith,” McCain said. “But that doesn’t mean that I’m sure that someone who is Muslim would not make a good president.”

Later, McCain said, “I would vote for a Muslim if he or she was the candidate best able to lead the country and defend our political values.”

Asked about Republican rivals Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith, McCain said, “I think that Governor Romney’s religion should not, absolutely not, be a disqualifying factor when people consider his candidacy for president of the United States.”

The Arizona senator was also asked about the confusion over which Christian denomination he belongs to. “I was raised Episcopalian, I have attended the North Phoenix Baptist Church for many years and I am a Christian,” McCain said. He added that he has considered being baptized in the Baptist church, but he does not want to do it during the presidential race because “it might appear as if I was doing something that I otherwise wouldn’t do.”

THIS is what passes for leadership in this country.

30. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007
31. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

The dead woman in Arizona is connected: Gotbaum’s Daughter-In-Law Dies in Phoenix Airport Custody

Somehow, I don’t think this is going away as easily as it might have.

Gotbaum married Noah Gotbaum twelve years ago (announcement here). She lived on West 95th Street, where Noah Gotbaum told a Post reporter, “I don’t want to talk about it. It’s rude.” Betsy Gotbaum, who is second in the line of succession for the job of Mayor, told the Post, “The family is in great grieving and stress. We have nothing to say. We hope that The Post and every other newspaper will respect our privacy.” And she said to the Daily News, “We are very concerned about what happened at Phoenix airport. It’s under investigation and we are following that investigation. She has three very small children. It’s a very delicate matter.”

32. aemd - 30 September 2007

From MITM’s link

“It appeared as though Ms. Gotbaum had possibly tried to manipulate the handcuffs from behind her to the front, got tangled up in the process, and they ended up around her neck area,” Hill said.”

Jesus, if anyone buys this line of shit they’re braindead.

“they ended up around her neck area”?? From the back??

No more air flight for me… TSA is full of crazy people.

33. marisacat - 30 September 2007

No more air flight for me… TSA is full of crazy people.

yes I agree… and I had too much trouble BEFORE 9/11.

34. Marie - 30 September 2007

ms_xeno – not making excuses for Gore merely trying to include all the facts available to us. Does Gore=Clinton? Many in 2000 voted for GWB because they were repulsed by Bill’s dalliance with Monica, and GWB exploited that with the code talk “restore honor and dignity to the WH.” I think we would agree that smearing Gore with Bill’s philandering was stupid. On the left, policywise Gore=Clinton. Perhaps, perhaps not. This was undefined which is why I never I trashed the Nader voters (although, Nader makes me gag). All we’ve learned since then is that Gore didn’t walk in lockstep with Hill/DLC on Iraq, endorsed Dean who the DLC was out to get and has been critical of the course this country is on. Scott Ritter’s take on Iraq is tht a President Gore would also have invaded which may or may not be correct. Just like I don’t know what JFK would have done in Vietnam had he lived or FDR would have done about demobilizing the country at the end of WWII. The federal institutional pressures to follow the course we have taken were enormous – but the person in the Oval Office does have the power to change the course. So, we don’t know.

One thing that makes Gore so difficult to read is the conflict inherent in his life story. Is he a racist bible thumper from TN or the pot smoking Harvard grad? FDR populist like his parents or DLC corporatist? His father paid a huge price for his opposition to the Vietnam War – Gore enlisted in the army, supported the Gulf War, and opposed the invasion of Iraq. As this is inconsistent, it makes little sense without drilling down. Would private citizen Gore taken a different position on the Gulf War than TN Sen Gore did? Would VP Gore have supported an invasion of Iraq? I don’t know. Has Gore continued to justify “:his” selection of Lieberman for VP? That’s one thing that’s very easy to read; he loathes Lieberman. In the quest for power, he’s not the first or last one that will be forced to make a compromise or bargain. Those of us with no power can be pure, but we have no power. Therefore, painting Gore black for a decision that was shoved down his throat is almost as bad as voting for GWB because Clinton got his dick sucked my Monica.

When I said, That would mean that he plans to remain focused on environmental …I meant that’s how he would rationalize a decision to endorse Hillary and not that I would find that acceptable. In fact, if he does endorse Hillary before the primaries, it will tell me that he’s back in or never left the fold. The case on Gore will be closed for me. Gore’s cautiousness and needing to belong to the club will have outweighed any evidence that he has a healthy impulse to do the right thing. I had no trouble reading Colin Powell for the toady that he is, but perhaps my powers of observation aren’t keen enough to perceive that Gore is no different. If so, I will be the first to admit it.

Do you really think Dean will survive President Hillary’s purge? I could be wrong on him too and like Powell he will also, and erroneously, conclude that he can do more good on the inside than outside. We shall see.

35. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

people who try to get out of cuffs like those usually go down with them, under their feet, don’t they?

36. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

Cops cuff your wrists behind your back–standard procedure.

Let’s try an experiment:

Clasp your hands behind your back.

Now try to raise your arms over your head.

Can’t be done, unless you dislocate both shoulders or are a Yogi master.

You HAVE to draw your knees to your chest and put your feet through the loop–but the cops cuff you so that the loop is NOT big enough for your feet to go through.

The official police story of how this woman died in their custody is pure bullshit.

37. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

Gotbaum was the in-law of an NYC politico. I looked up the surname on NYC Indymedia and noted that said in-law was none too popular with the regulars. An interesting sidebar there.

I absolutely agree that there’s no way this woman could have strangled herself. At the very least, there was some other self-inflicted trauma that these fuckers have to cover up because they were negligent in leaving an agitated person untreated and alone like that.

At the most, they killed her themselves, for jollies.

Wouldn’t be the first time, would it ?

38. aemd - 30 September 2007

“yes I agree and I had too much trouble BEFORE 9/11.”

And what a joke “Security” was prior to!

Ya know what happened here, the airline way overbooked, as they always do, and this woman had the balls to pitch a fit about it. Guess they taught her a lesson. Show up at the airport two hours early, keep your head down, your knees together and your ankles crossed. or else… ‘Bout it.

BTW, what airline calls in TSA the handle a customer service issue? What airline did this? Anyone know?

39. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

Madman beat me to it. Sorry.

I defiantly wore my “art vs. commerce” shirt in the PDX airport (there’s a gun pointed at St. Mickey Mouse on the front) last week and somebody in security actually complimented me on it. But perhaps he was being sarcastic.

40. aemd - 30 September 2007

Looks like the WordPress filters are gettin’ pissy again. Trying a repost….

“yes I agree and I had too much trouble BEFORE 9/11.”

And what a joke “Security” was prior to!

Ya know what happened here, the airline way overbooked, as they always do, and this woman had the balls to pitch a fit about it. Guess they taught her a lesson. Show up at the airport two hours early, keep your head down, your knees together and your ankles crossed. or else… ‘Bout it.

BTW, what airline calls in TSA the handle a customer service issue?

What airline did this?

Anyone know?

41. Arcturus - 30 September 2007

via As’ad:

“Singapore has sent the junta guns, rockets, armoured personnel carriers and grenade launchers, some of it trans-shipped from stocks seized by Israel from Palestinians in southern Lebanon.”

have any of y’all followed/heard about the McDavid ‘eco-terror’ conviction lat week? the one w/ a free-lancing informant/agitator who 1st shows up w/ pink hair & camo mini?

42. Sabrina Ballerina - 30 September 2007

Well, ms x. if they are responsible for her death, looks like they made a big mistake. But regardless, no one should be dying in airports in police custody just because they got a little agitated about missing a flight.

It’s a horribly sad story, she has three children also. But she was not some poor nobody whose death they could just write off. I wonder how many others have died in police custody that we have’t heard of.

No flying for me either until something improves here. And I just heard on the news that to go to Canada now you have to have a passport.

43. Marie - 30 September 2007

SB #39
No flying for me either until something improves here. And I just heard on the news that to go to Canada now you have to have a passport.

Makes you wonder if the real reason for the border fence isn’t to keep people out but to lock us in.

44. wu ming - 30 September 2007

exactly, marie. the great wall served a similar f(x).

45. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007
46. marisacat - 30 September 2007

sorry

just let aemd and marie out of moderation.

Off to check spam…

47. marisacat - 30 September 2007

Think it was the summer of 2004, that they came out with US Visit supposed to regulate the entrance INTO the country of non-nationals.

I sat down iwth it in the kitchen. It was clear to me, it ws to keep people IN.

As for passports, you now need them for both Mexico and Canada.

You need them to get back IN. Now the passport service was in a total mess this year, so they made an exception, if you had proof you had applied (because months were going by and people were not getting their passports…), then you could return without a passport.

I cannot imagine that went well.

They had to admit to big SNAFUs at the passport service as the lines in cities went for blocks. And people were mad. And local media was out filming, at least they were here.

48. Marie - 30 September 2007

MitM #45 – thanks

Is it just my imagination or has every one of the kosling spinoffs enlisted one or more of the most popular diarists to join them with the expectation that that person will drive people to the new blog? Jerome seems to be the one solicited for DocumD. Wonder how long he’ll last there considering that he only got 14 comments to his piece today (a very long and good piece that I doubt few will read fully and thoroughly). Not surprising that he would X-post it at dKos where he’s accustomed to getting hundreds of comments (ah, yes,not many of us are totally indifferent to those comments; writing and being ignored is a lonely place).

49. marisacat - 30 September 2007

NIck Turse on the Security State

Now, I was back to resolve the matter of my illegal arrest. As I walked through the metal detector of the Federal building, a security official searched my bag. He didn’t like what he found. “You could be shot for carrying that in here,” he told me. “You could be shot.”

and here is another tidy little factoid from the Tom Englehardt preamble to the article (embed links at the article):

Already our second defense department, the Department of Homeland Security, has sprouted a second, mini-military-industrial complex — and it’s not just a domestic matter either.

When it comes to the profits associated with surveillance and the crackdown, Chinese surveillance companies, already raising money from U.S. institutional investors, are reportedly about to get their first foothold on the New York Stock Exchange.

50. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

Is it just my imagination or has every one of the kosling spinoffs enlisted one or more of the most popular diarists to join them with the expectation that that person will drive people to the new blog?

Marisa calls those spin-off blogs “butterfly nets”, which is accurate, I think. and yes, I think that blogheelers are sent to them to keep the manufacturing of consent within acceptable boundaries.

Oh, as the the airline question, it was US Airways.

I have something new up at LSF:

White Mistakes

51. colleen - 30 September 2007

I expect general cheering for the home team if they bomb Iran.

I don’t know about that Madman, they sure don’t have that now with the ongoing Iraq occupation. The polls (on polling report) are certainly heading in the other direction with only 9% in favor of bombing, 24% believing Iran does not represent a threat at all and the overwhelming majority want DIPLOMACY (a concept which seems beyond Condi and the Bush administration)
I’m amazed by the utter cluelessness of the Dem friont runners after each debate and particularly after the Kyl/Lieberman amendment was passed. It’s as if both parties don’t even want to pretend to care about the will of the people they claim to represent.

52. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

wow, that Turse piece is amazing/depressing/horrifying. Oh, and the thing he could be “shot” for having?

So what, you might still be wondering, was it that led the security official at the federal courthouse to raise the specter of my imminent demise? A weapon? An unidentified powder? No, a digital audio recorder. “Some people here don’t want to be recorded,” he explained in response to my quizzical look.

53. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

Oh, I don’t think the cheering will last long, but it will be there.

54. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

Bubba Isn’t Who You Think:

In fact, if you look at voting behavior, low-income whites in the South are not very different from low-income whites in the rest of the country. You can see this both in Larry Bartels’s “What’s the matter with What’s the Matter With Kansas?” (pdf), Figure 3, and in a comprehensive study of red state-blue state differences by Gelman et al (pdf). It’s relatively high-income Southern whites who are very, very Republican. Can I get away with saying that rich white trash are the problem? Probably not.

What this reflects, in turn, is the odd fact that income levels seem to matter much more for voting in the South. Contrary to what you may have read, the old-fashioned notion that rich people vote Republican, while poorer people vote Democratic, is as true as ever – in fact, more true than it was a generation ago. But in rich states like New Jersey or Connecticut, the relationship is weak; even the very well off tend to be only slightly more Republican than working-class voters. In the poorer South, however, the relationship is very strong indeed.

This is why it’s true both that rich voters tend to be Republican, and that rich states tend to be Democratic.

55. marisacat - 30 September 2007

Counterpunch:

How to Make Iraq Look Like Whipped Cream So What About Iran?

By URI AVNERY

A respected American paper posted a scoop this week: Vice-President Dick Cheney, the King of Hawks, has thought up a Machiavellian scheme for an attack on Iran. Its main point: Israel will start by bombing an Iranian nuclear installation, Iran will respond by launching missiles at Israel, and this will serve as a pretext for an American attack on Iran.

Far-fetched? Not really. It is rather like what happened in 1956. Then France, Israel and Britain secretly planned to attack Egypt in order to topple Gamal Abd-al-Nasser (“regime change” in today’s lingo.) It was agreed that Israeli paratroops would be dropped near the Suez Canal, and that the resulting conflict would serve as a pretext for the French and British to occupy the canal area in order to “secure” the waterway. This plan was implemented (and failed miserably).

What would happen to us if we agreed to Cheney’s plan? Our pilots would risk their lives to bomb the heavily defended Iranian installations. Then, Iranian missiles would rain down on our cities. Hundreds, perhaps thousands would be killed. All this in order to supply the Americans with a pretext to go to war.

Well citizen are fodder… not always frontline fodder.. but let’s get real.

Pity the countries, US and ISrael, paired up, ever.

56. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

Like they don’t already use the settlers as willing fodder, not to mention the kids serving out their time being left out as bait on the borders.

The Israeli right will do it willingly.

57. wu ming - 30 September 2007

i noticed that just by looking through the 2004 election result demographics. for all the white collar liberal ire towards “white trash,” it was clear enough that a college education and a healthy income tended to correlate not with voting democrat but with voting republican.

bellatrys tried to point this out at dKos around then, and was roundly flamed for it.

somnetimes i wonder if the reason why republican pollers like luntz push categories like “NASCAR dads” and “soccer moms” and “religious voters” isn’t primarily a way of luring knee-jerk democratic partisans into denouncing various demographics that the republicans want to split off from the democratic party.

people take the bait, and talk shit as directed, and a wedge is driven in.

58. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

John Dean: From Nixon to Bush to Giuliani

“Look at the so-called Watergate abuses of power,” he said. “Nobody died. Nobody was tortured. Millions of Americans were not subject to electronic surveillance of their communications. We’re playing now in a whole different league.”

And how does Bush compare with the Republicans seeking to succeed him? “If a Rudy Giuliani were to be elected,” Dean said, “he would go even farther than Cheney and Bush in their worst moments.”

What about the rest of the pack? “I’m very concerned about the current attitude in the Republican party,” he said. “However there are candidates on the Republican side who are not quite as frightening as Giuliani.” When I asked who he had in mind, he laughed and said “Ron Paul.” He conceded that “there’s no chance he’s going to be president.”

59. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

Key demographics from the 2004 election:

Males–55% for Bush
Females–48% for Bush

White men–62% for Bush
White women–55% for Bush
Non-white men–30% for Bush (includes Latinos)
Non-white women–12% for Bush

Whites–77% for Bush
Blacks–11% for Bush
Latinos–44% for Bush
Asians–44% for Bush

It gets really interesting when you break down the vote by income category, which corresponds to social class (I know, there’s no classes in America, just one big middle class, but indulge me for a moment):

All percentages are those voting FOR Bush in 2004:

Under $15,000–36%

$15-30,000–42%

$30-50,000–49%

$50-75,000–56%

$75-100,000–55%

$100-150,000–57%

$150-200,000–58%

$200,000 or More–63%

Looks like households earning under $50,000 a year voted for their class interests by casting a vote for Kerry (although just barely) and those earning over $100,000 a year looked after their class interest by going for Bush.

What’s also interesting is that those earning over $200,000 a year make up 1% of the population but 3% of the voters. That means you’ve got to inspire and organise the working classes if you want to win elections for progressives. But ah, there’s the rub–Kerry wasn’t inspiring them and Hillary Clinton sure isn’t going to, either.

77% of white voters voted for Bush. I’d say chasing the Great White Bubba has been a fruitless pursuit for the Democrats, but, undeterred as always by evidence, the Democrats continue to plead with Whitey to vote Democratic. I take it from the 77% figure that most white folks fully approve of the openly racist, warmongering policies of the GOP.

Some good news: the demographics of the country are swinging in favour of a progressive majority, if only someone will organise the emerging non-white majority. Won’t happen for another generation or more, but it will happen: whites will be in the minority. And judging from the way white people vote, it’s a development that will benefit the country.

All facts and figures from here:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

60. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

Christian Conservatives Consider Third-Party Effort

Alarmed at the chance that the Republican party might pick Rudolph Giuliani as its presidential nominee despite his support for abortion rights, a coalition of influential Christian conservatives is threatening to back a third-party candidate in an attempt to stop him.

The group making the threat, which came together Saturday in Salt Lake City during a break-away gathering during a meeting of the secretive Council for National Policy, includes Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family, who is perhaps the most influential of the group, as well as Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council, the direct mail pioneer Richard Viguerie and dozens of other politically-oriented conservative Christians, participants said. Almost everyone present expressed support for a written resolution that “if the Republican Party nominates a pro-abortion candidate we will consider running a third party candidate.”

The participants spoke on condition of anonymity because the both the Council for National Policy and the smaller meeting were secret, but they said members of the intend to publicize its resolution. These participants said the group chose the qualified term “consider” because they have not yet identified an alternative third party candidate, but the group was largely united in its plans to bolt the party if Mr. Giuliani became the candidate.

Don’t hear anybody threatening them or calling them traitors to the party.

61. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

And you never will, Madman.

Romney’s their boy, anyway. Wonder how they’re going to get past his Mormonism?

Oh, right, I forgot: the unifying principle of the Republican Party is WHITE supremacy. It’s a place where white people of all different Christian denominations can come together and unite in an effort to keep down the more deeply-pigmented people in American society.

That’s why the Republicans always stick together: at the end of the day, the white racists (which is most of the white American population, as far as I can tell) who have been voting Republican for over 30 years stick together because they’ve got no place else to go. If Romney or Giuliani promise white supremacy–and we know from Giuliani’s record as NYC Mayor how HE treats the non-white minority–then they’ll get those Bubba votes that are key to the GOP majorities.

So they’ll come up with a comparison showing how Mormonism is almost exactly like the Baptist sect, and when Tom Cruise runs for President, they’ll do twists and turns for Scientology.

Not to say that the Democrats don’t get a lot of racist whites voting for them, too. It depends on what the Democrats promise. Serena Joy’s husband played the racist cards when he attacked that obscure hip hop singer, Sister Souljah, and “stood up” to Jesse Jackson (take THAT, progressive values!). Serena Joy, aka HR Clinton, will also piss on the heads of some non-white progressives to prove to the white voters that she’s nothing to fear.

62. marisacat - 30 September 2007

Gotta laugh… from part 1 of the Blitzer interview iwth Pelosi (part 2 was on this am):

BLITZER: You know your base is frustrated, really angry.

PELOSI: I’m frustrated myself.

BLITZER: So are you telling your angry base out there the Democratic Party that wants to see this war over with, wants to see the U.S. troops home that you as speaker, there is nothing you can do? You have to just throw your hands up and say …

PELOSI: I didn’t say that at all.

BLITZER: Given the legislative problems in the Senate and the president’s stubborn refusal to back down, that there is nothing you could do?

PELOSI: How could you ever have gotten that impression when I have said, for those who pay attention, is that we will hold this administration accountable, time and time again for the conduct of this war in Iraq.

What we do have to do is show them every step of the way how the president is taking us farther down a path from which is going to be harder to redeploy out of Iraq.

BLITZER: But when you hold the president accountable, I just want you to explain what does that mean, besides just complaining and holding hearings? Specifically, is there anything else you can do?

PELOSI: Holding hearings and the oversight that we have on the corruption and contracting in Iraq, the hearings that we’re holding and the harm to the readiness of our troops that the president is causing with his abstinence in this war in Iraq.

The retired generals tell us blah blah blahblah blah blah………….

blah blah blah blah……… our diplomats and protect our troops who are there, fight the al Qaeda and if we have to train the troops, if we have to continue to train the Iraqi security forces, it doesn’t have to be in country. And it doesn’t have to be all American. That can be done out of country.

blah blah….

So we are talking about a greatly diminished force there and a redeployment when safe and responsible within the next year. The president is talking about ten years. And then after that, a Korea- like presence in perpetuity. That’s the choice.

blah blah blah…

then we get to the nitty gritty…

BLITZER: And I just want to be precise. Impeachment, that notion which some of the base clearly would like, that’s off the table.

PELOSI: I’ve always said that impeachment is off the table. This is President Bush’s war. It’s Vice President Cheney’s war and now it’s become the war of the republicans in Congress.

take that! She hits them with the softest whitest, most baby baby kidskin gloves on earth. So soft the talcum in the fingers caresses their faces.

63. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

wow, she’s so fucking worthless.

just don’t vote for them. seriously.

64. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

BLITZER: But when you hold the president accountable, I just want you to explain what does that mean, besides just complaining and holding hearings? Specifically, is there anything else you can do?

PELOSI: Holding hearings and the oversight that we have on the corruption and contracting in Iraq, the hearings that we’re holding and the harm to the readiness of our troops that the president is causing with his abstinence in this war in Iraq.

So Pelosi’s complaint is that Bush and the Republicans are mismanaging the war, not the war itself?

Yeah, I already figured that one out, Madame Speaker.

Anybody got a link to Sheehan’s campaign site so I can donate money to her?

(By the way, I think that CNN might want to pay a transcriptionist who knows the difference between “obstinance” and “abstinence”–Bush’s “abstinence” is NOT the problem…)

65. marisacat - 30 September 2007

well that is the core issue at hand… the party as a whole and in its many parts will only take issue with the MANGEMENT of the war.

It is clearly verboten to call the war out, itself.

But then, as is also clear, the parties are in agreement. One leads, one is complicit.

66. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

I think a lot of those transcipts are produced by software, like the closed captioning is, then maybe cleaned up later.

Hell, those words have three syllables in them … thats only alowed when using financial or sports jargon. Threw them off.

67. liberalcatnip - 30 September 2007

Marie,

Sorry I didn’t get back to you on the previous thread (which I need to catch up on). My internets has been out most of the weekend.

68. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007
69. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007
70. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

Romney’s their boy, anyway. Wonder how they’re going to get past his Mormonism?

I’m trying to figure out who McCain’s bit about the how the president should be a Christian was aimed at.

It has to be Romney. This and McCain’s sudden conversation to the Baptist faith has to be dog whistle language aimed at the evangelical right.

It’s not as if Keith Ellison or Feingold were running.

Could it be Obama he’s aiming at? Hinting at his partly Muslim background?

Nah. It’ got to be Romney.

71. Marie - 30 September 2007

Shadow #59 – 77% of all voters are white and of those 58% voted for Bush and 41% for Kerry. In 2000 81% were white and they split 54% GWB and 42%.

That still means that a large number of poorer white Americans are voting GOP. iirc – every election since at least 1960, with the exception of 1992, how goes the white male vote; so goes the country. 2000 was also an exception with women breaking 54/43% and men 42/53 for Gore. But we were overruled by the 4/3 male split on the SC.

Without Nader in the race in 2004, GWB increased his percentage among men from 53% to 55%. That’s interesting. Nader who got 3% of the male vote might have helped Gore in 2000. But look what happened in 2004 to the women’s vote, GWB got 5% more and only 2% of women voted for Nader in 2000.

Demographic change (2000-2004)
Non-whites 19% to 23%
Women 52% to 54%

29 & under remained at 17% but in 2000 they split 48/46% for Gore and 54/45% for Kerry.

More women and minorities and greater DEM penetration in the youngest age group should have predicted a DEM win. This is what confounds the statisticians because the results don’t add up. GWB only performed 2% better among white males in 2004 but 6% better among white women. Looks to me as if the DEM Party has a white woman problem. Can Hillary be the answer?

72. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

Oh, right, I forgot: the unifying principle of the Republican Party is WHITE supremacy. It’s a place where white people of all different Christian denominations can come together and unite in an effort to keep down the more deeply-pigmented people in American society.

Amazing development. Only a few years ago it looked as if they were going to suceede in using the gay issue as a wedge to break off black social conservatives from the Democrats.

Now they’ve completely given up on getting black votes at all.

73. marisacat - 30 September 2007

new Newsweek poll has Obamamama leading in Iowa by (iirc) 4 pts. Then Hilarius and then Edwards.

Pretty clear the Republicans WANT to run against Hillary. IMO,that is.

74. marisacat - 30 September 2007

Left KQED on all day in the kitchen… as I went in and out, they over and over again ran “Soldados” a comapnion piece to War that has run thru this past week here… and a couple other similar things (Valentia, is one) aimed at Latino Americans.

Absolute recruiting BULLSHIT. Horrific. And clearly aimed at households without cable or satellite…

75. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

I’m predicting Huckabee is the nom. You can laugh at me and point next year when I’m proven wrong. Don’t see them voting for a Mormon or a flip-flopping multiply-divorced Catholic. Sorry, just don’t.

Anyway, the country is done, we’ve given up on the whole idea. Legacy of School Segregation Endures, Separate but Legal

The history provided by the Chamber of Commerce makes no mention of those days, but that’s all right. Ms. Shamburger, 56, has not forgotten.

She grew up the youngest of 13 in a Wilcox County place not found on any map, she says, but deep in that fabled vein called the Black Belt for reasons of soil and skin. Her father was a self-employed mechanic and her mother was a homemaker, which meant they were freer to speak out than their sharecropping neighbors.

She graduated in 1968 from the all-black Annemanie School, where she enjoyed a full education, she says, no matter that essentials like musical instruments were donated through the local Presbyterian church, no matter that her school had absolutely no interaction with the other, all-white high school in her town. “Different worlds,” she says.

Three years later, and with college degree in hand, she returned to teach math in Wilcox County, where Little Rock was nothing more than the name of some distant city. The ensuing struggle for desegregation soon turned the terrifying into the common.

“Threats to burn our house down, ropes in trees,” she says, matter of fact.

Her parents were jailed with dozens of others for marching without a permit. She lost her teaching job. And true integration in the county’s public school system lasted about as long as it takes to walk out a door. White residents quickly created private academies; the extra cost ensured that their children would not have to sit beside children of another color.

Through the 1990s, lawyers representing a class of poor schoolchildren waged a legal battle to change a state financing formula that clearly shortchanged Black Belt school systems like Wilcox. Ms. Shamburger, meanwhile, earned a doctorate in educational leadership and rose to become the system’s special education coordinator, which required her one day to visit a spacious high school in a Birmingham suburb where some students were studying photography.

Studying what?

“That’s when I realized we lacked so much,” she says.

Ms. Shamburger became superintendent last year. By now, thanks to increases in county taxes and hard-won changes to the state’s school financing formula, Wilcox had new buses, a new elementary school and other improvements that moved the system closer to the equity intended by desegregation.

But profound challenges remain. Parents are asked to provide toilet tissue and other paper products to cut down on costs. The high school band’s uniforms are verging on threadbare. The middle school, the Camden School of Arts and Technology, has no music teacher.

As for academics, Wilcox County spends more per pupil than most other Alabama counties, yet its reading scores — while steadily rising — remain below the national average. “It won’t be overnight, but we’re moving in a positive direction,” Ms. Shamburger says.

76. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

I’m predicting Huckabee is the nom. You can laugh at me and point next year when I’m proven wrong. Don’t see them voting for a Mormon or a flip-flopping multiply-divorced Catholic. Sorry, just don’t.

The media’s been trying to bulk up McCain over the past few days.

77. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

Bwahahaha !!! Poor Mr. Stomach Flu on PFF is having a conversation with himself over one of Choice Joyce’s old columns. Too funny !! Can’t somebody send in the sock puppet cavalry for the poor boy ?

[you'll have to imagine one of those rolling laughing smilies here.]

78. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

McCain is toast. I just don’t see it.

79. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

McCain is toast. I just don’t see it.

The idea that he’s a Baptist now is hilirious. He’ll do anything to be president, pander to anyone, say anything.

You might be right about Huckabee. The Republican field is very weak but the media can bulk up anybody it wants, Hillary, Huckabee, McCain, Rudy.

So maybe Huckabee’s got the least baggage.

80. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

Huckabee is laying low, I think, building his ground game. He’s like bill clinton w/out the appetites. Makes some noises about helping the poor, is very anti-abortion w/o being overtly strident, has that story to tell about losing all that weight …

81. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

Doesn’t Huckabee have some skeletons in regard to the Clintons? Didn’t he give clemancy to some prisoner put in jail by Bill and didn’t this prisoner then go out and kill someone?

82. marisacat - 30 September 2007

I read Bill’s interview with Al Hunt.. I think he WANTS Huckabee to be the nom. He called H the Republicans “best speaker”.

Romney lags b adly nationally. Guiliani promises with him they can win CA. I don’t see the hard core xtian right going for / permitting Guiliani.

Seems Romney must do well in Iowa and NH.

The Clintons really are fools.. if they think it would be an easy run against Huckabee.

and the media loves the simple stories of Huckabee.

83. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

My money’s still on Giuliani. The media will give him the tongue bath he requires, because of 9/11.

Some Cro-Magnon Southerner will run as his veep to sweeten the deal and placate the most slobbery camps of Bible-thumpers. Or maybe they’ll get Ann Coulter and go for the fiftysomething frat boy bloc instead.

84. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

The Clintons really are fools.. if they think it would be an easy run against Huckabee.

The “liberal” blogs will have their story for the next year (the Huckabee parole story) if he’s the nominee.

Whether the general public will care is another matter.

It’s not that easy to convey the idea that Huckabee’s a bad man because he parolled some guy who went out and killed again and that he did this to get at Saint Bill.

Unless he’s a big scary looking black guy, it’s probably going to create a lot of yawns outside Planet Atrios.

85. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007
86. Miss Devore - 30 September 2007

I’m sliding back to Obama. If all the dem candidates are roughly the same, I have to go with someone who can possibly improve our standing in the world. I don’t see Kucinich as someone the rest of the planet can relate to.

I know its kinda shallow, but I’m going with the prettier puddle.

87. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

72. Hair Club for Men – 30 September 2007

Oh, right, I forgot: the unifying principle of the Republican Party is WHITE supremacy. It’s a place where white people of all different Christian denominations can come together and unite in an effort to keep down the more deeply-pigmented people in American society.

Amazing development. Only a few years ago it looked as if they were going to suceede in using the gay issue as a wedge to break off black social conservatives from the Democrats.

Now they’ve completely given up on getting black votes at all.

Afraid it’s a bit more complicated than that.

The GOP never entertained any realistic notion of getting more than the 11% of the black vote they get now.

The GOP have been trying to accomplish two things with their homophobic politics:

1. Solidify the Christian fundamentalist base (done);
2. Turn black voters OFF the Democratic Party–the GOP don’t need blacks to vote for them, they just need them to NOT vote Democratic.

Question is, have the GOP managed to do that? Or are black voters too smart to fall for the trap?

88. Marie - 30 September 2007

If they could be Huckabee in Romney’s body they’d have their guy. Romney could pass in MA but the rest of the country has a bit more familiarity with Mormons. They operate with a different ethical code of standards. One I don’t understand, but let’s just say that those spinoff sects that practice plural marriage with the ex-wives and children collecting welfare shares something with the mainstream Mormon standards.

Romney was looking good at 6/07 in the money chase. But his burn rate is high and receipts have plummeted. May only pull in $5MM this Qtr and had to contribute another bundle to his coffers. And what has he accomplished? A couple of straw polls that haven’t set up any momentum for him. Huckabee’s not going anywhere unless Dobson throws in behind him and so far, he’s keeping his powder dry (or options open).

Either the GOP will take a dive next year or they already made a deal with Dobson to jump on board with Rudy. If I had to bet, it’s the former. Let their good buddy’s wife have it and destroy the Clinton legacy in a single four year term. Retool for 2012. That Webb takedown of Allen really screwed up the gameplan.

89. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

Question is, have the GOP managed to do that? Or are black voters too smart to fall for the trap?

I went to a black church in North Philly to photograph Justice Sunday (3 or 4 I foget).

http://www.pbase.com/srogouski/justice-sunday

Dobson/Santorum/Falwell and crowd basically just bought the church and the reverend and they all went along with it.

Faith based pork and “abstinence clearing houses” delivering slush funds can buy a lot of melanin based support.

But Katrina made it all irrelevent.

90. mattes - 30 September 2007
91. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007

ms. xeno –

the plan was for vitter to run as guiliani’s vice president. now they will have to find someone else, and i think he will choose either huckabee or thompson.

92. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007

i was just strolling around the internets, and i found this online. i think this is somewhat interesting.

http://www.myleftwing.com/showComment.do?commentId=259021

93. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

Anybody have some money burning a hole in their pocket?

Giuliani’s too scary, he’s not telegenic, and he doesn’t have the personal discipline–Giuliani will have some of his thuggish bodyguards haul out dissenters and beat the living shit of them during one of his speeches, and that’ll be that for him. Not only that, but the guy dressed in drag (as Marilyn Monroe, I think). Think Bubba’s going to vote for a guy who did that? Uh-uh. Bubba hates fags and Bubba hates guys who tolerate fags.

Romney, on the other hand–now there’s a guy who’s a human weathervane, plenty of money, looks good on camera even if he babbles nonsense about his favourite book being L. Ron Hubbard’s “Battlefield Earth”, and has lots of his own money if things get a bit tight with the fundraising.

Huckabee? He’s hoping for vice-president.

It’s Romney v. Clinton. We should just put both their names in a hat right now and draw to see who gets to be President. Best 2 out of 3 so there’s some element of democracy.

94. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

The only positive thing about a Hillary vs. Rudy run will be that it will dispell the idea of New York as a “liberal” city forever.

And maybe we can start getting beyond the bullshit red vs. blue strawman the media set up in 2004.

95. Marie - 30 September 2007

HC #84 – the Huckabee story isn’t a tough sell. They guy was in prison for raping some distant relative of Clinton. Huck pardoned him very early in his sentence because there were claims that Clinton had railroaded the guy. Nat Hentoff – Village Voice – has never answered for pushing that story. Within days of getting out the guy raped and killed at least one woman.

Miss D #85 – agree, not worse than the other two and you make a reasonable case for why he might be better in the international arena. But how’s he polling with white men and women?

96. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

I’m actually hoping for Clinton. If anybody can destroy the Democratic Party once and for all, it’s her. With the Democrats gone, maybe we can have a second political party that actually represents the working class?

Quit laughing at me, all of you. Stop it, I say!

97. marisacat - 30 September 2007

The only positive thing about a Hillary vs. Rudy run will be that it will dispell the idea of New York as a “liberal” city forever.

hell no it won’t! ;)

Look at SF, we had an assassintaion, dirty as could be when you poked around in it, an ex-cop shot and killed the first official gay elected pol and a mayor who did actually have a bone or two that was liberal.

And we still get labeled “liberal”. Because it is code, either for Jewish intellectual, or just Jew, or for LGTB… or hell just gay.

BTW, I ahve caught glimpses of Huckabee when he gots on his “liberal” bashing rants. I bet it gets very dark and dirty in his disucssions behind closed doors.

Fun to watch what is coming. Again, distribute weapons — and STAND BACK!

Still volunteering to hold the buckets for the blood…

8)

98. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

With the Democrats gone, maybe we can have a second political party that actually represents the working class?

Or we could have a one party authoritarian state.

99. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007

shadowthief,

thereisnospoon disagrees. according to him, hillary must be defeated at all costs. she must be defeated.

one writer responded with the following, and i think they are correct:

http://www.myleftwing.com/showComment.do?commentId=259021

100. Miss Devore - 30 September 2007

93–as if I look at polls. there seems to be a buzz that he’s ahead in Iowa. I loved Rich’s column “Is Hillary the New Old Gore” today. And I hate the anointing of Hillary, smacking of some vaunted experts know better.

Frankly, I think if Obama wants it at this point, he knows what he is getting into, and it will not be easy for him.

101. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

And we still get labeled “liberal”. Because it is code, either for Jewish intellectual, or just Jew, or for LGTB… or hell just gay.

And in NYC last week, Jews, intellectuals and gays were all used to demonize the brown skinned other and start the drumbeat for another war.

Liberal vs. Conservative is an obsolete division in so many ways.

Before the 2006 even Justin Raimondo and a certain type of libertarian were touting the Democrats and the “netroots” as being “not quite as bad and statist as the Republicans”.

Boy were they wrong.

Invoking the backward and reactionary qualities of a lot of traditional cultures (the ones that have oil) is the new justifcation for stealing their property.

New York is a lot like Paris now. It’s a great big gated community for the rich.

Now excuse me while I go mug that Amish farmer and take his land because he oppresses his women.

102. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

96. Hair Club for Men – 30 September 2007

With the Democrats gone, maybe we can have a second political party that actually represents the working class?

Or we could have a one party authoritarian state.

If you think the Democratic Party stands between you and an authoritarian state, you’ve not been paying close attention.

The ACLU, working with sympathetic courts, have thus far managed to blunt some of the sharp edges of the authoritarian sword that the Republicans have tried to plunge through the heart of democracy.

And the Democrats? They helped sharpen the sword and are holding the scabbard.

103. Marie - 30 September 2007

mattes #89 – chances are he’s just an asshole teen. Like the skinheads. Not that the parents and school should take this lightly. The question they have to attempt to answer is, was he being a jerk or is this a sign of a potentially violent young man? Not really a law enforcement issue at this stage. IMHO

Why didn’t this country ban the treasonous symbol of the Confederate flag after the civil war? That would have stomped out some of this shit.

104. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

If you think the Democratic Party stands between you and an authoritarian state, you’ve not been paying close attention.

I don’t. We have a one party authoritarian state now.

But getting rid of one piece of the figleaf isn’t really going to change it or open up any new possibilities.

Whether or not the dems exist is really pretty irrelevent. Those Trotskyists who put all their energy into bashing the democrats miss the point. There’s this idea that if only we get rid of Democrats and liberals, the Republicans, revealed to be what they are, will spark a mass revolt.

That’s not inevitable. If Katrina didn’t do it, it’s going to take a lot.

105. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

no, you’re not wrong mattes. dumb white guys don’t understand that racial epithets ARE threats.

106. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007

did not dobson fly into utah today in order to meet a group of conservatives who want to mobilize an effort for a third party from the right as a result of guiliani’s candidacy?

here is a link:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/054585.php

that would be an interesting spectacle to behold.

107. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

did not dobson fly into utah today in order to meet a group of conservatives who want to mobilize an effort for a third party from the right as a result of guiliani’s candidacy?

It might put Ohio into play.

108. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007

by the way, thereisnospoon has a new problem at my left wing.

i wonder if the comment at the bottom of the comments thread will be deleted anytime soon by those who hold the keys to the gates of the rapist sanctuary blog:

http://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=19002

109. Madman in the Marketplace - 30 September 2007

I’m tellin’ ya’, it’s gonna be Huckabee, and he’ll pick some winger militarist from out west for his running mate.

110. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

HC:

I agree with Smith & Co. at Stop Me. The only thing that really holds the GOP together is its group hatred of the Democrats. Without the Democrats around, the GOP’s own fissures will start to show up much more clearly than before– with explosive results.

111. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

mattes, you’ll never get anywhere arguing with B*r*n. Better to ignore him.

112. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

Without the Democrats around, the GOP’s own fissures will start to show up much more clearly than before– with explosive results.

But what does this mean? The GOP splits apart and we get a two party system with those two parties being the kill the Arabs neocons and the kill the Mexicans paleocons?

113. marisacat - 30 September 2007

And we still get labeled “liberal”. Because it is code, either for Jewish intellectual, or just Jew, or for LGTB… or hell just gay. — Mcat

And in NYC last week, Jews, intellectuals and gays were all used to demonize the brown skinned other and start the drumbeat for another war. — HCFM

AGREE!… as I read in the PNAC papers, I read half of it summer of 02… I flaked out at 55 pages – the

Iraq War is to divide and harden at home

and how.

I have to take slight exception to NY being like Paris, now. I started flying over NYC more than 20 years ago. I missed it, very much so, but I could have have better of EVERYTHING for less in Paris.

114. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007

how can huckabee survive the primary?

SC, he is 5th:

Fred Thompson
24%
Rudy Giuliani
20%
Mitt Romney
15%
John McCain
11%
Mike Huckabee
3%
Some other candidate
5%

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_2008_south_carolina_republican_primary

He is also 5th in NH:

Mitt Romney
25%
Rudy Giuliani
22%
Fred Thompson
19%
John McCain
12%
Mike Huckabee
4%
Some other candidate
5%

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/new_hampshire_primary_romney_25_giuliani_22

This is also the case in FL:

Rudy Giuliani
29%
Fred Thompson
23%
John McCain
12%
Mitt Romney
11%
Mike Huckabee
3%
Some other candidate
2%

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_2008_florida_republican_primary

Huckabee has to win Iowa, and it seems as if he is 5th there too.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ia/iowa_republican_caucus-207.html

115. marisacat - 30 September 2007

both parties are corrupt, need each other and fear and demonise anything remotely left.

116. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007

i also disagree with the comparison of nyc to paris.

117. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

both parties are corrupt, need each other and fear and demonise anything remotely left.

Undoubtedly true but lopping off one corrupt party doesn’t automatically lead to a mass upsurge of resistence.

Honestly, this Trotskyist/Anarchist mentality drives me slightly batshit. The enemy is always the person just to your left.

I just don’t buy it. The ruling class can just as easily manage without the figleaf.

118. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

It’s more complicated than that.

Historically, the United States is a two-party system. When one party fell so far out of line with the voters that it became irrelevant, it was supplanted by another, more vigorous party organisation.

That’s why you don’t see too many candidates running on the Whig ticket :)

The Democrats give just enough appearance of opposition to prevent a true working class party from forming. Permissible limits of debate, remember? If the Democratic Party defines “the Left”, then anybody to the left of the Democrats is a wild-eyed radical Commie. Never mind that in European politics, the Democratic Party would be considered the right-wing.

Remove the Democrats from the equation and you open up the political system to new possibilities. I think what’s going to happen in the long run is that regional parties will organise and run their own candidates, then form alliances in Congress to form a ruling coalition.

The political system cannot continue in its current state. Either a genuine opposition party or coalition of opposition parties arises, or we have a dictatorship. At least with a dictatorship, one could perceive the danger more clearly.

The Democrats give a false hope to millions that all they need is a swift kick in the bum and they’ll wake up and fight back against the Republicans. So long as the Democratic Party exists, that false hope–which is killing all chances for a genuine opposition to coalesce–will remain.

119. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

HC, do you seriously think that Leftists in the U.S., already routinely gagged and closeted by the DP, will be MORE gagged and MORE closeted when the DP is gone ?

I’m not buying that. I also think that a multiparty system, if we could establish one, would bring new classes of voters into the system. Plenty of people stay home now because so far as they’re concerned neither party is selling anything that they’re interested in buying.

The DP is in the way. If it vanishes, I say good riddance.

120. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007

i notice ron paul no longer surfaces in any republican polls. has he been locked out of the process, or was all the discussion about his candidacy a mere flash in the pan?

121. marisacat - 30 September 2007

Fed Thompson is gonna drop or become inconsequential.

Not all there. he keeps flubbing media questions, not knowing Big Stuff. And the money has never come in as it has too…

And someone sure got to Gingrich, one day he talks of a 30 million dollar litmus test, the very next day OUT OF HERE.

122. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

HC, do you seriously think that Leftists in the U.S., already routinely gagged and closeted by the DP, will be MORE gagged and MORE closeted when the DP is gone

I don’t think it’s going to be much different. The Republicans can gag the left as easily as the Democrats can.

The DP is in the way. If it vanishes, I say good riddance.

I’m not going to weep for the Democratic party. I just don’t think elimating it does anything in and of itself.

123. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

I am thinking that a split in the GOP would be more likely to form along Bucchanan/Friedman lines. Others’ milleage may vary.

124. marisacat - 30 September 2007

Yeah but the DP and the RP are smashed together and the Super Glue that is holding them together will take a NUCLEAR blast to rupture.

125. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

Newtie got himself the promise of a Cabinet post, Marisacat. Secretary of Defense? Secretary of State? Homeland Security? As long as the department has lots of young female interns, Newtie will be a happy boy.

126. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

I am thinking that a split in the GOP would be more likely to form along Bucchanan/Friedman lines.

Essentially the real split now is paleocon vs. neocon. And there’s not much daylight between these two groups either.

Some care more about Mexicans. Some care more about Arabs.

And it runs through both parties.

So eliminate one nominal party and the political balance stays the same.

127. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

Again, HC, you keep talking as if the GOP will remain a monolith without the DP monolith on the other side. I doubt that’s true, just as I doubt that one party will be able to contain everyone to the Left of the GOP, at least initially.

At any rate, it should be clear by now that reforming the DP is not going to do anything except keep us on the same destructive path we’re one. The DP is NOT INTERESTED in destroying the GOP, outside the fantasies of an ever-decreasing number of fools at Little Orange Footballs. So, if not this, what do you propose ?

128. antihegemonic - 30 September 2007

I know Miss Devore is supporting Obama. Who is everyone else supporting? I do not know for whom I will vote. I voted for Sharpton last time.

129. Shadowthief - 30 September 2007

120. marisacat – 30 September 2007

Yeah but the DP and the RP are smashed together and the Super Glue that is holding them together will take a NUCLEAR blast to rupture.

War with Iran might actually lead to the United States being defeated, something that hasn’t happened in a LONG time.

Alan Greenspan’s final Ponzi scheme, the housing bubble, has collapsed, and is pulling down the economy with it.

Maybe it’s the perfect storm and not a nuke that will blast things apart: A defeated military in the Arabian Peninsula, having former allies in the European Union turn on the United States, and a collapsing depression-era economy all combined just might do it.

Sounds like an awful lot of suffering for us regular folk. Not looking forward to it, but it seems inevitable and I’m resigned to it.

130. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

The DP is NOT INTERESTED in destroying the GOP, outside the fantasies of an ever-decreasing number of fools at Little Orange Footballs. So, if not this, what do you propose ?

Build mass resistence. The Trots/Anarchists I see within “the movement” tend to do more to disrupt resistence than build it.

It’s always “UPFJ and Leslie Cagan are the enemy because they have Democratic Party ties” or “if only we can stop these permitted anti-war rallies the revolution is at hand”.

Sounds exaggerated but it’s not.

Note. I’m not saying I support the Democrats in any way, shape or form. But assuming that eliminating them will make any great change is to assume we really have a two party system in some ways.

The two party system is already here. Just elimating one label is meaningless in my humble opinion.

131. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

Also, the divide between Friedman and Buchannan is not a divide between those who hate one dark race vs. those who hate another. It’s a divide between those who want to make boundaries completely fluid for the purpose of “free” trade and those who want newer and more draconian boundaries for the purpose of keeping those on U.S. soil in the dominant position in any and all trade arrangements.

One believes that Capital supersedes nationality. The other does not.

The two camps have largely kept their differences under wraps for the sake of a unified front. Without the DP around, they won’t need that front any more. Sorry I can’t dig up Smith’s column for you right now. He explained it quite well.

132. marisacat - 30 September 2007

Just an image to hold up a thread… 8)

LINK

133. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

I know Miss Devore is supporting Obama. Who is everyone else supporting?

I think you should vote for Kucinich, Paul or Gravel in the primaries then sit out the general election.

134. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

…Build mass resistence. The Trots/Anarchists I see within “the movement” tend to do more to disrupt resistence than build it…

HC, you may have to settle for multiple groups each operating their own versions of resistance, at least for awhile. Until it shakes out somewhat.

It’s hard for me to imagine how this could be worse than the “unified” movement to elect a sham candidate like Kerry. But fine. I’ll be a “Trot,” an “Anarchist,” whatever you want. Hell, Scruggs informed that I’m a “Situationist” and I’m still not sure what that means. Suppose I should go and look it up. :p

135. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

It’s hard for me to imagine how this could be worse than the “unified” movement to elect a sham candidate like Kerry.

I agree with this.

The problem is that groups like UPFJ actually work to build protests, to organize. You knock out their leadership and you have to replace it. Those 1.1 million people who came to NYC to protest the RNC just don’t materialize out of thin air by magic.

Once again, knock out the Democrats and I won’t shed many tears.

I just don’t think it’s the panacea or even something that’s worth wasthing time on.

136. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

“Knock the leadership out ?” HC, I didn’t propose putting anything to the guillotine here except the actual party, metaphorically. Literal Guillotines are not my style. You want the UPFJ leaders to stick around ? I know next to nothing about them and have no real opinion, so be my guest.

Also, you’re proposing disrupting a general election, or at least letting the air out of it. You are aware, I hope, that this would cast YOU into the Anarcho-Trot “dungeon,” too– in the eyes of a whole lot of the party hacks, ward heelers and traditional team players.

137. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

[Tips hat to Shadow, who summed it up better.]

138. Hair Club for Men - 30 September 2007

Also, you’re proposing disrupting a general election, or at least letting the air out of it. You are aware, I hope, that this would cast YOU into the Anarcho-Trot “dungeon,” too– in the eyes of a whole lot of the party hacks, ward heelers and traditional team players.

Of course. I wear my “purity troll” badge with pride.

In the simplest possible terms, I think that anything that builds real progressive resistence is worth pursuing under whatever name you call it.

There were about 500 GWU college democrats at the International Answer rally on September 15th. I’m not so much concerned about what they call tthemselves as I am about the fact that they came out to show themselves and do civil disobedience at the Capitol.

Even someone like Obama isn’t totally negative. Put him in another context, one where there’s genuine grass roots mobilization against the war, then he’ll tack left to keep up with the crowd.

Right now I’m in favor of disrupting the general election because we really won’t have a choice.

I don’t think Dean in 2004 was a totally negative thing. Sure he drew people into the Demoratic party but is there any guarantee they would have been active at all had he not?

I’m not so sure.

139. ms_xeno - 30 September 2007

…In the simplest possible terms, I think that anything that builds real progressive resistence is worth pursuing under whatever name you call it…

Cheez, HC. I don’t what you’re arguing about then. Unless it’s the false assumption that I and others called the possible breakup of the DP a “panacea.”

Far as I can tell, nobody said that. A potential for positive change is there with the institution that is the DP out of the way. No more. No less.

140. wu ming - 30 September 2007

guiliani -huckabee looks like a solid ticket, either order. romney is just not look mean enough to qualify, republican primary voters will want an out-and-out fascist leading the ticket.

if huckabee manages to get a ground game going, and gets the big dobson endorsement before iowa, i think he could take it, though. a huckabee-hillary race keeps me up at night, because he’ll use that phony christian compassion shtick to kick the legs out from hillary.

mccain’s “muslim president” comment is totally aimed at obama. it’s a wingnut dog whistle for those that freak out about his “two muslim fathers” as some bizarro-world islamofascist manchurian candidate fantasy. i ran across one just the other day on a local politics blog discussion of the architectural merits of a new mosque in town that got very weird very fast.

not sure if it’ll make a damn bit of difference, though. mccain is done, his shot at wrecking the country was back in 2000 when he had suckered independents like myself into thinking that he was a reformer maverick because he had the balls to trash-talk the christian right in virginia. mea culpa.

141. Paul - 1 October 2007

The story of that woman who lost her life at the air port is frightening. This comes right on the heels of the story of the beefy, 25 year old “security” guard who broke a 16 year old girls wrist because she didn’t clean up a few crumbs some birthday cake she dropped.

Authoritarianism is a problem in this country.


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