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The wars………… 19 November 2007

Posted by marisacat in Afghanistan War, Beirut, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, Iran, Iraq War, Israel/AIPAC, The Battle for New Orleans, WAR!.
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  New Orleans April 2005
      New Orleans – April – 2005

I landed on this linkless snip in a thread at Rigorous Intuition, from Randall Robinson of TransAfrica, on with Amy / Democracy Now.  I am hunting for the original DN link (hard to do as he references the move to St Kitts Nevis often when on the show and has appeared many times over the years since the move, 2001)

- anyway, I think in his references to “bottom stuck” and how America feels it has “done enough” post slavery, de jure apartheid and post Jim Crow, think RR is absolutely on target:

AMY GOODMAN: Why did you quit? Why did you leave America?

RANDALL ROBINSON: Well, we were — my wife, Hazel, and I, with our daughter Kalia were going to a place as much as we were leaving this place. St. Kitts-Nevis is a small exquisitely beautiful, democratic, well-run, civil, decent society, where people care about each other and take care of each other.

 These were qualities I had come to find hopelessly lacking, absent, in American society. I had discovered at this age — I was 60 when we left — that I wanted to live in a society for some time, some portion of my life, where race did not have to be a battlement, that one could get beyond that and not feel it always in one’s craw. And it’s a kind of thing that it used up so much of my energy, and the energy of so many in the United States.

But perhaps more importantly, that after the active stage of this great crime against humanity, slavery and de jure discrimination that put together ran for 346 years, America became very satisfied with itself, that it had done all that it was going to do, while the victims of this long-running crime were left wounded in the worst way: families destroyed, chances for healthy socializations gone, prospects nil, and so the main bulk of the black community remained bottom stuck.

 The civil rights movement helped people like me, people who had come from intact families, whose parents were healthy enough to encourage us to believe that we could do well. And so, it meant that the door was open, if you could walk, perhaps could you get through it, but many could not, and they remained bottom stuck. Black community cleaved into two parts: those who could benefit and those who were too terribly devastated to do so. Nothing has been done for them.

So, we find ourselves now in a situation in America with a society in terrible shape, but with that condition, fundamentally ignored by those who rule it. It just does not matter, even as it jeopardizes the whole of society. A poll was done recently that showed that a full half of Americans are afraid to venture more than a mile from their homes at night. The whole society has become a sort of prison. We have one 1/20ths of the world’s population with one-fourth of the world’s prisoners. There’s something wrong with that, 2 million and climbing, half of whom are black, because of the reasons I detailed, in addition to the active discrimination that is ongoing.

The chance of a black getting arrested, a young black male, are six times that of his white counterpart, of being incarcerated seven times, and once incarcerated will serve a sentence exactly twice as long as his white counterpart for the same crime. Blacks are half of those on death row, three-quarters when they are added to the Hispanic inmate populations. So, this business of locking up people has become a new thriving industry in America with private prisons, in a democracy, which means that in order to have your stock increase in value in a private prison, you have to get more prisoners. So, states like California are investing much more in prison construction than they are in ground-up construction of new universities.

   Ed Kashi

And all of this goes on with the full blessing of not just governments that come and go, Democratic and Republican, but with the full blessing of media, the popular culture, and all of the rest.

In our foreign policy, this hyperpower, I think is coming to endanger the entire world, because now it operates willy-nilly without checks and balances. Iraq is just one example of the kind of disaster that is possible when we have a nation so powerful, so full of itself, unwilling to examine itself, self absorbed, and narcissistic in all of what that means, that it will go forward against the grain of the international community unilaterally, to create the disaster that Iraq will be for many generations to come. It won’t work.

To think that we now in Iraq have Muslim women becoming prostitutes, servicing American soldiers just feeds the kind of hatred that is growing and felt towards Americans throughout the Islamic world. It’s a very sad thing, and we get to a point that we cannot make America listen anymore to anybody but itself.I — I just — to preserve my sanity, and I think my voice, I thought it best for me to leave. I wanted to see another place, to feel …

and there the snip in the RigInt thread cut off…

***************************

     

The other thing is a Reuters report I fell on….. about women serving in the IDF.

JERUSALEM (Reuters) – One posed for a photo as she scrubbed a Palestinian corpse. Another stripped a man to his underwear and then beat him. A third helped cover up the abuse of a young boy.

The six Israeli women who feature in the documentary “To See If I’m Smiling” each wrestle with memories of their compulsory military service that they would rather erase.

But after years of trying to bury the past, they have spoken out in a film that explores the darker side of Israel’s 40-year-old occupation of the Palestinian territories and examines its impact on a generation of young men and women.

All but one of the women spent time as conscript soldiers in the Palestinian territories during the uprising that erupted in 2000. In the film, they recount their memories from that period, describing how they coped with military machismo and with the residual guilt about what they witnessed.

   propganda before the killing of Rabin

[Y]arom hopes the documentary will prompt soul-searching in the Jewish state, where military service is a core part of national identity, and encourage other traumatized ex-soldiers to talk about violence they may have inflicted or witnessed.

“This country is in a coma. With all the bombs and attacks, we are numb,” she said.

“People feel we are in a war of survival and it’s better not to criticize soldiers, because they are the ones protecting us.”

Israel’s army said in a statement that soldiers adhere to a strict ethical code and that in exceptional cases, where the code is violated, an investigation is launched. It said the number of ethical violations involving Palestinians had “consistently dropped” since the events described in the film.

Yarom expects the film, which is due to be televised this weekend, to provoke criticism both from the Israeli left — because of her sympathetic portrayal of the soldiers — and from the right — which often balks at criticizing the army.

Yarom said personal experience prompted her to make the film. As a support soldier during the earlier intifada of the 1980s, she was shown a Palestinian torture victim but failed to speak out.

Almost two decades later, she still cannot shake the image of the man, slumped over a generator, his neck bent to the side and his face covered in blood.

“It’s the kind of picture that stays with you forever,” she said. “During my service I detached myself. When you try to re-attach yourself afterwards it’s painful.”

I wish I thought there were a way out – anytime soon.  It is just so immense, so world-wide, so all-encompassing and crushing  of anything resembling a political process in this country – that I am not hopeful…. 

**********************************************

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Comments»

1. marisacat - 19 November 2007

have to love it, Smithee defines DavidByron (in Hair Club’s diary thread at PFF):

*[new] Fuck off, shitwit (6.00 / 2)

Jesus-fucking-christ-in-a-chariot-driven-sidecar are YOU still sliming aroung the blog, you ugly semi-conscious repulsive turd? Go toddle off to whatever sub-moronic inbred drool-case changes your diaper whenever you pee yourself in impotent tiny-fisted outrage. Nobody here is interested in your socially-retarded, puerile, clueless, malignant maundering.

by AlanSmithee @ Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 03:06:24 AM PST
[ Parent | Respond to this Idiocy |

2. marisacat - 19 November 2007

we are so blessed that they look out for us:

Huckabee: Abortion Not States’ Call

By WILL LESTER
The Associated Press
Sunday, November 18, 2007; 5:47 PM

WASHINGTON — Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee rejects letting states decide whether to allow abortions, claiming the right to life is a moral issue not subject to multiple interpretations.

“It’s the logic of the Civil War,” Huckabee said Sunday, comparing abortion rights to slavery. “If morality is the point here, and if it’s right or wrong, not just a political question, then you can’t have 50 different versions of what’s right and what’s wrong.”

Huckabee said Sunday, Nov. 18, 2007 that he rejects letting states decide whether to allow abortions, claiming the right to life is a moral issue not subject to multiple interpretations.

“For those of us for whom this is a moral question, you can’t simply have 50 different versions of what’s right,” he said in an interview on “Fox News Sunday.”

and don’t miss this tidbit…

Huckabee also previewed his first television ad of the campaign on the program. The 60-second spot, which features actor Chuck Norris, was to begin running in Iowa on Monday.

“My plan to secure the border. Two words: Chuck. Norris,” says Huckabee, who stares into the camera before it cuts away to show Norris standing beside him.

“Mike Huckabee is a lifelong hunter who’ll protect our Second Amendment rights” on gun ownership, says the tough-guy actor, who takes turns addressing viewers.

“There’s no chin behind Chuck Norris’ beard, only another fist,” Huckabee says.

Lordy.

3. marisacat - 19 November 2007

LOL caveat, it is Fund in the WSJ (not behind a wall), But it is also FUN!

The confrontation on the night of Nov. 8 was ugly. Members of the Hispanic Caucus initially voted against the rule allowing debate on a tax bill that included the AMT “patch,” which for a year would protect some 23 million Americans from being kicked into a higher income tax bracket.

Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, a moderate from Maryland, was beside himself. Congressional Quarterly reports that he jabbed his finger on the House floor at Joe Baca, the California Democrat who chairs the Hispanic Caucus, and yelled, “How dare you destroy this party? This will be the worst loss in 10 years.”

Mr. Baca was having none of it. “You see this on the [voting] board?,” he yelled back. “This is against me. This is against me personally.” Luckily for Democrats, C-Span’s microphones did not pick up the exchange. But it was audible to reporters in the press gallery. They also heard Rep. Luis Gutierrez of Illinois say that English-only efforts were symbolic of “bigotry and prejudice” against those who speak other languages.

After testy negotiations, the Hispanic Caucus finally agreed to let the tax bill proceed after extracting a promise from Ms. Pelosi that the House will not vote on the bill funding the Justice and Commerce Departments unless the English-only protection language is dropped. “There ain’t going to be a bill” with the Alexander language, Mr. Baca has told reporters. ::snip::

issue them weapons and stand back, with luck each is successful.

AND, at least Fund did not call Steny a “liberal”.

4. cad - 19 November 2007

Saw Kos on Bill Maher getting in his quick shots at Kucinich when he was defended. And Bill Maher is such a pompous jack-ass. All that palling with Arianna and Hefner is curdling his mind.

5. Miss Devore - 19 November 2007

CNN is broadcasting a hearing on the oil spill–though I can’t get the friggin CNN video to work–anyone watching?

6. bayprairie - 19 November 2007

issue them weapons and stand back, with luck each is successful.

i believe the alamo is available for a reasonable fee.

7. marisacat - 19 November 2007

Miss D

I slept thru the am and had no idea they would broadcast it… the hearing is here on the Presidio.

*******

cad

isn’t punditry a fallow field. Such creeps get in then lie around doing nothing … gibberish.

********

bay

anything that kills them both off… ;)

8. marisacat - 19 November 2007

speaking of “the wars”…

Twenty Thousand Protest at Fort Benning

LINK

Bill Quigley, writing for Truthout, reports:

“In what has become the nation’s largest annual gathering for peace and human rights, over twenty thousand people protested outside the gates of Fort Benning, GA, on November 18, 2007. Eleven people were arrested on federal criminal charges and face up to six months in prison.”

That was the snip from the TO email… but here is more from the text. I can hear the Great Grumblers at their keyboards huumpfh large puppets! Probably a Mumia poster too!

Veterans of WWII, Korea, Vietnam and the never-ending Gulf Wars marched side by side with Catholic sisters and Buddhist monks. Flowers, posters, pictures and thousands of small white crosses bearing the names of people executed by graduates of the school were put on the closed padlocked gates topped with barbed wire. Thousands of college and high school students chanted and prayed. Grandmothers for Peace as military loudspeakers blared warnings and law enforcement helicopters hovered overhead. Huge puppets, singing children and drum circles alternated with the spirited calls of priests, rabbis and ministers of many faiths and races. Songs in many languages, indigenous chants, guitars, horns and mountain flutes filled the air.

The eleven people who crossed onto the grounds were arrested by military police. The eleven, ranging in age from 25 to 76, are scheduled for federal criminal trial January 28, 2008, for trespass – punishable by up to six months in federal prison. Over 200 people have served federal prison time for civil disobedience at prior protests – dozens of others arrested have served years of supervised federal probation. The movement to close the school started in 1990 when about 20 people held the first protest outside Fort Benning.

Even if the US government is reluctant to close the school, Latin American countries look like they will do it themselves. Argentina, Bolivia, Costa Rica, Uruguay and Venezuela have announced they are withdrawing their militaries from the school. ::snip::

Safe to say there were no pro-Chevron ads however.

9. marisacat - 19 November 2007

here is a dicey tid bit in the Spiegel today:

The World from Berlin: ‘Peace in Kosovo Was Never More than a Ceasefire’

Former guerilla leader Hashim Thaci has won elections in Kosovo and says he intends to declare independence by December. German commentators say that could mean that war is on the horizon.

LINK

10. StupidAsshole - 19 November 2007

Anyone been following this diary series by Lukery on Daily Kos about the Sibel Edmonds affair? http://lukery.dailykos.com/

I’m not sure what I think about the Edmonds affair (I just never have time to sift through it all and do my own research). But one thing that I find interesting is that these diaries seem to be avoided like the plague by Daily Kos’s usual team of Hasbara trolls. You’d think they’d be all over them like white on rice.

11. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

A girl I used to have a massive crush on in high school used to stand up and cheer every time it was announced over the school intercom that the football team lost.

I never got the courage to talk to her. But it doesn’t mean I can’t pay homage to her by rooting for these guys.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071119/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_venezuela

12. marisacat - 19 November 2007

SA

had not seen that diary from Lukery. I happen to believe Sibel Edmonds, she makes a lot of sense to me. And to Sen Grassley as well, from what I Read in the past. And to Ellsberg as well.

*****************

hmmm saw this in The Note. There should be a debate in the West (not that I give a shit, to be frank, but still):

Presidential debates:

Friday September 26, 2008: University of Mississippi, Oxford, MS (Domestic policy focus)

Tuesday October 7, 2008: Belmont University, Nashville, TN (Town hall format)

Wednesday October 15, 2008: Hofstra University, Hempstead, NY (Foreign policy focus)

13. marisacat - 19 November 2007

ooo I love her:

…used to stand up and cheer every time it was announced over the school intercom that the football team lost.

14. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

Woa. New Mike Huckabee commericials.

Huckabee: I’ve got the guy to secure out borders Chuck Norris

Norris: I’m going to protect our second amendment rights.

Uh, gonna shoot some wetbacks Chuck?

15. marisacat - 19 November 2007

re Norris Huckabee commercial.

Yes it struck me too.

So clear, they are “caging” the vote to be on

“Securitat” as in vote for SAVAK, or other US based invasive intel and police based police state… Homeland Division.

and

“immigration”, masking for race hatred, division, fear, etc.

16. Arcturus - 19 November 2007

I knew I recognized those quotes – ya mas: [fixed the link --- Mcat]

RANDALL ROBINSON: I wrote this, of course, on the commencement day in May in my hotel room in Longhand just before I was to leave to go over to the school [Georgetown].

“I wish to begin by apologizing to all of you if what I am about to say on your day causes you discomfort. I have fought all of my life against social injustice. I have opposed unjust communist regimes and unjust capitalist regimes. I have fought against unjust white regimes and unjust black regimes. I do not live in the United States anymore. I live on the tiny democratic Caribbean island of St. Kitts-Nevis. I only learned this morning that George Tenet, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, was to be the speaker at your School of Foreign Service exercises yesterday. I sincerely believe that in the years ahead, the entire world will come to accept that the United States has committed in Iraq a great crime against humanity, a crime against innocent Iraqi women, children, and men. Indeed, a crime against our own men and women, who have paid and will continue to pay with their lives, for the greed of America’s empire makers. In my view, President Bush, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Powell, and Mr. Tenet are little more than murderers. There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and they knew this. There is no Iraqi connection to 9-11. There was no legal justification for a war in which we have not bothered to count the Iraqi dead. America has committed an awful wrong in the sight of God, and I trust in time, that this will be the prevailing view or verdict of humanity. In any case, you have chosen the wrong person this morning. I should not have come. Indeed, I would not have come had I known before what I learned this morning, when I opened the newspapers. Americans must choose. They must choose between decency, of course, and empire, between morality and murder, between truth and deception. Mr. Tenet has the right to speech protected by our constitution, but that right should not be exercised on a platform so broadly respected as yours. I cannot accept your honor, for in my view, Georgetown University yesterday disqualified itself of the moral authority to bestow one. My candle lights little other than the interior of my own conscience; but for me, for all of my life, that has been enough.”

And that’s what I didn’t get to say that day [spring 2003-A].

&

AG: . . . You are well known for taking very strong stands, as you did around the coup in Haiti, as you did when the U.S. government, then led by President Clinton, was turning back Haitian refugees. You fasted until you were getting very ill for a month. You stayed in your office at TransAfrica until Sandy Berger, the then National Security Adviser, came to your hospital bedside to ask what you would accept. He was a classmate of yours in law school?

RANDALL ROBINSON: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: What you were demanding?

RANDALL ROBINSON: Only that we comply with International Law, and provide sanctuary for those Haitians who were fleeing political persecution with a well-founded fear for their lives, that we behave as other nations are asked to behave, and to comply with international norms. We were rounding up Haitians, and taking them back without examination. And we were accepting Cubans, just as broadly. And the President knew at the time that many of the Haitians that we returned were being killed. And it was just an intolerable situation. President Clinton needed Florida for his re-election, and he made the calculation that Florida wanted Cubans, and they didn’t want Haitians. So, with the knowledge that these people were dying, that he sent back, in violation of international law, he did so until the hunger strike, I think, focused a more public light on his policies.

AMY GOODMAN: You had a name, and they didn’t — we would know —

RANDALL ROBINSON: It was a shameless chapter in American — in American diplomacy, particularly from a president who had gotten so much support from the black community, the black community that didn’t know enough about the full consequence of American policy, which is perhaps what you can say now about the entire American community, about our policy generally. Democracy doesn’t work without an enlightened citizenry. Ours is not very sophisticated about what we do beyond our borders. I think presidents and politicians know how suggestible the American population is, and with that knowledge comes a kind of contempt that you can tell them anything, and that’s what we have done in Iraq. And so, I think before we go to war, we ought to always ask those who support war, “Would the war in Iraq be worth the loss of a single life if that life were yours?” Before you send somebody else’s child, you ought to have to answer that question. Now, I think in World War II, many might have said “Yes,” but I don’t think anybody who voted for this war, who supported it, would answer that question, “Yes.” Clinton might have been asked the same question with respect to Haiti. It was a terrible thing that he was — that he was doing.

elsewise, have you heard/read about CA requiring volunteers to sing “Loyalty Oaths” before being certified to cleanup ‘legally’?

17. Arcturus - 19 November 2007

sorry, screwed up yet another link – here:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/03/1628209

18. marisacat - 19 November 2007

Arcturus

I ahve not read of loyalty oaths. Been following i tin the press and at

http://zunasurf.wordpress.com

Which is the surfers who began organising to clean at OB.

However I notice they have yet to approve my first and only comment of yesterday. While others posted after mine have appeared.

I would not be surprised by loyalty oaths, but if so, people need to SPEAK UP

AND REFUSE.

How did you hear of it ????

thanks for the DN link… the search engine there is not the greatest (and I am a poor searcher)

19. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

Of course if I’m an illegal immigrant, my chances of being killed by Minutemen or Skinheads (in New Jersey anyway) aren’t that big.

The real problem is this:

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-nj–immigrantbeatingd1117nov17,0,1975456.story

I’m going to jump to conclusions and assume these three guys are African Americans.

The three men _ Muhammad Glasper, 20; Gregory Greene Jr., 19, and Willie Greene, 18, all of Plainfield _ were all arrested at their homes at about 5:30 a.m. Friday, said Police Chief Edward Santiago.

Gangs are on the rise.

http://www.c-n.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071026/NEWS/710260325

TRENTON — Two hundred forty-four municipalities in the state are reportedly home to street gangs, and more than a quarter of the cities and towns with gangs report a “high intensity” presence, according to a state police survey released Thursday.

Of course some of the gangs are immigrant gangs and there are probably hate crimes against immigrants by white racists that go unreported.

BUT the clear danger it seems to me if you’re an illegal is that you’re picked off as an easy mark, someone who won’t go to the cops if you get robbed.

Sometimes robberies that go bad turn into murders.

ALSO, there are mid sized companies (plenty of them) around me where they hire immigrants from Asia, Latin America and Asia but not African Americans from Newark.

That creates enormous resentment against Hispanics. The East Europeans tend to be a bit safer because they have their own gangs and organized crime families.

20. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

elsewise, have you heard/read about CA requiring volunteers to sing “Loyalty Oaths” before being certified to cleanup ‘legally’?

I have a fake Communist Party membership card somewhere. I’d think about getting a jokey Al Qaeda membership card but I keep thinking that Jose Padilla was jailed for life for basically filling out an Al Qaeda membership application.

21. Arcturus - 19 November 2007

Yea, I know about zuna – good stuff there – I first heard about the oaths on Flashpoints’ Friday broadcast (but there’s nothing abt it in their show write-up) – I missed the beginning of it & think the guy interviewed went to a SF training session , but it might have been east bay – he DID refuse – apparaently it’s in the CA Code, but not being enforced everywhere

from the Xron:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/17/HOO9TBVD0.DTL

By Saturday, the Berkeley Marina operation was more organized. UC Davis’ Oiled Wildlife Care Network had relocated its field processing unit from Fort Mason. At the nature center we signed a loyalty oath, were processed and got volunteer badges that got us through police checkpoints.

Code:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=gov&group=03001-04000&file=3100-3109

. . . the term “disaster service
worker” includes all public employees and all volunteers in any
disaster council or emergency organization accredited by the
California Emergency Council. The term “public employees” includes
all persons employed by the state or any county, city, city and
county, state agency or public district, excluding aliens legally
employed.

oath’s here:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_20

It’s all beyond irony, satire, rant . . . simply beyond . . .

{Yo Hairdoodie – while you’re doing remedial reading, check out the recentish Supreme Court reasoning settling the Western Shoshone claims & the Treaty OF Ruby Valley}

22. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007
23. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

German commentators say that could mean that war is on the horizon.

Might as well just strike a match to the whole fucking globe. They could start with the two petroleum spills.

24. marisacat - 19 November 2007

thanks for that Arcturus.

I remember on Dkos when the “loyalty oaths” swetp thru we had to explain why it ws upsetting and why we were not running off to sign some fucked online oath to vote for the Dem candidate.

The only oath I could ever [barely] imagine taking would be some form of what federal employees promise, to defend America agaisnt all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.

thanks for the links.

25. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

Arcturus, good to “see” you and thanks for the excellent links/excerpts.

Do you have to run a knife across your palm and smear it across a state flag after the recitation of that oath?

26. Arcturus - 19 November 2007

well, this is the State’s version of same – mebbe you wanna fill in the appropriate blanks & sign on the dotted line? :)

all to be safely filed away, of course

27. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007
28. marisacat - 19 November 2007

read the oath. That is ridiculous. I could nto do that…

maybe if I was fool enough to run for office, but to clean a beach? That I use?

gee.

29. marisacat - 19 November 2007

25

yeah but I did not run for office. Get involved in that foolishness… and whooops.

30. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

EXCLUSIVE: Daniel Ellsberg Says Sibel Edmonds Case ‘Far More Explosive Than Pentagon Papers’

“I’d say what she has is far more explosive than the Pentagon Papers,” Daniel Ellsberg told us in regard to former FBI translator turned whistleblower Sibel Edmonds.

“From what I understand, from what she has to tell, it has a major difference from the Pentagon Papers in that it deals directly with criminal activity and may involve impeachable offenses,” Ellsberg explained. “And I don’t necessarily mean the President or the Vice-President, though I wouldn’t be surprised if the information reached up that high. But other members of the Executive Branch may be impeached as well. And she says similar about Congress.”

Later in the piece:

Edmonds’ phone was “ringing off the hook” for requests for interviews from independent radio shows. Ours was too, and our email inbox yielded dozens of similar requests.

But Edmonds has been clear: “I’m gonna do one major interview” to tell all of the ‘states secret’ information. “Afterwards, I’ll do the others. But this is gonna be one round, give it all and say ‘here it is.’”

The ground rules seem fair enough. She is risking being rushed off to prison after all.

“Setting Records for Shamelessness”

The mainstream media is “shameless”, Ellsberg says, so is Congress, so is Bush.

“He’s setting records for shamelessness. He should probably be in the Guinness Book of Records. He doesn’t care what he says. And the media is shameless as well, as they’ll run anything he says. And Congress is pretty shameless as well. You can’t really shame these people.”

Without mainstream corporate media attention, Ellsberg contends, Edmonds’ story will stay off the radar, and her damaging contentions will do no harm to the powers that be.

“She’s not going to shame the media, unless the public are aware that there is a conflict going on. And only the blog-reading public is aware of that. It’s a fairly large audience, but it’s a small segment of the populace at large.”

Unless her claims reach the mainstream, he says, “they don’t suffer any risk of being shamed. As long as they hold a united front on this, they don’t run the risk of being shamed.”

They Already Know

Edmonds revealed an additional tasty morsel while wrapping up one of our recent conversations. One that might help explain the American media’s reluctance to jump at the chance for a scoop: apparently many of them already know the story.

“I will name the name of major publications who know the story, and have been sitting on it — almost a year and a half.”

“How do you know they have the story?,” we asked.

“I know they have it because people from the FBI have come in and given it to them. They’ve given them the documents and specific case-numbers on my case.”

“These are agents that have said to me, ‘if you can get Congress to subpoena me I’ll come in and tell it under oath.’”

Yet, despite promises she says she had received from staffers in Rep. Henry Waxman’s (D-CA) office to hold hearings once he became chairman of the House Oversight Committee, they no longer respond to her. “The only reason they couldn’t hold hearings [previously],” they’d told her, “was because the Republicans were blocking it.”

They’re not blocking it anymore. Ever since the Democrats have taken control of the House. Nonetheless, there are still no plans for hearings. Even with more than 30,000 people having signed her petition, calling on Waxman to do so.

A spokesperson from his office finally replied to our repeated requests for comment on why they had not yet held hearings on Edmonds’ case.

We were told only that there are no hearings currently scheduled on her case. Repeated attempts to gather a more specific explanation or confirmation that the office had previously promised hearings yielded the same answer, and nothing more. No hearing is presently scheduled on the matter.

“It’s disgusting,” Edmonds said about the broken promises. “They won’t do it anymore. It’s disgusting.”

“This is criminal activity. That’s why I went to Congress, to the Courts, to the [FBI] IG. I am obligated to do so. And that’s what I’ve been doing since 2002.”

“By not doing so, someone should charge me for not coming forward to say something about this,” she continued.

“If they come after me…when they come after me — to indict me, to bring charges — it’s going to be up to the American public to see it’s not about some bogeyman in some Afghanistan cave. It’s about an American citizen coming forward to expose information that concerns the security of Americans.”

“An American citizen is coming forward to say that, no, they are depriving you of your security.”

Ellsberg says there’s a reason that the Government, and both political parties, would rather not deal with something as explosive as Sibel’s charges. Much like his own case, when the Republican Nixon administration fought against publication of the Pentagon Papers even though they were bound to embarrass the Democratic Johnson administration far more than Nixon’s.

“It involves our allies in various places in the Middle East. It involves our allies in Turkey and in Afghanistan and involves people in our Congress and our State Department,” he says.

Yes, Israel and the extremely powerful AIPAC lobby which supports both parties, is said to be involved as well.

“There’s no way that the President and Vice-President can escape culpability in this case,” Ellsberg charges. “If they claim they don’t know about it, then they are culpable in not knowing about it, and that’s impeachable right there.”

Sorry for the long clip … I couldn’t pick just a piece.

31. Arcturus - 19 November 2007
32. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

wow, why didn’t they subtitle that gov’t publication:

“A Shepherd’s Guide”

33. marisacat - 19 November 2007

oh not to worry! Lantos is on the accident! (watching the field hearing from the Presidio today, evening news). They will find al qaida on the Cosco Busan.

any minute now.

I see Pelosi dragged Barbara Lee with her, conspicuously checking her watch as she stands behind Pelosi. COULD SOME ONE OF THEM DO ANYTHING?

34. Arcturus - 19 November 2007

if anyone wants to listen, here’s the link to the Flashpoints show w/ the fell who thot the same:

http://flashpoints.net/index.html#2007-11-16

I don’t remember at what point in the show Dennis interviews him

doesn’t sound like there’s going to be a foloow-up tonight – they just announced an ecologist will be talking about the spill (94.1 FM):

http://www.kpfa.org/listen/

i otter git back ta me woik

35. marisacat - 19 November 2007

well there you go… (seems to me the Tillman mother has a similar tale, they told Waxman exactly what to subpoena, documents between exact narrow frame dates – and his office just sticks fingers in ears):

Yet, despite promises she says she had received from staffers in Rep. Henry Waxman’s (D-CA) office to hold hearings once he became chairman of the House Oversight Committee, they no longer respond to her. “The only reason they couldn’t hold hearings [previously],” they’d told her, “was because the Republicans were blocking it.”

36. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

Olbermann nominated Chavez for runnerup in the worst person in the world award.

And he was really, really mad when McCain “laughed” at the woman who called Hillary a “bitch”.

Keith’s floppy jackass ears are showing out from under his angry citizen hat.

37. marisacat - 19 November 2007

seems to me that in the past, maybe when chavez (and others) addressed the UN two years ago, that KO toed the quite distasteful Dem party line… which was LOL the Repub party line.

Bush GOOD, he’s ours! Chavez BAD, he is someoen else!

… etc.

I thought the bitch thing was a hoot! and the ONLY political observation to make is that both sides made use of it to raise money.

Keith needs to stash the Dem party patsy award. But he won’t………………….

Onward! To more exhortations to vote for the bitch.

38. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

I thought the bitch thing was a hoot!

Keith played the clip and I chuckled. Then the next thing I knew Keith was talking about McCain. “He laughed. Yes. He LAUGHED”.

Keith was so angry he could barely contain himself.

But what made it funny wasn’t the idea of someone calling Hillary a bitch, it’s the constant stream of crazy old Republican ladies that seem to pop up constantly in the McCain campaign.

Something Mel Brooks about it.

39. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

I know how much our hostess enjoys his foodie posts: IOZ gets into the spirit of the holidays:

What are you makin’ for Thanksgiving, IOZ? Well, first note that I hate Turkey. I have eaten the innards of sea creatures that even the Japanese look on warily, but there’s something about turkey that makes me gag. Also, the Boyfriend’s mother who isn’t allowed into my kitchen hates that we don’t eat Turkey, so there’s sadistic glee involved in planning an elaborate menu without it. (ahhhh, nothing says love more than torturing the in-laws!)

This year, our first course is a puréed garnet yam and yellow potato soup flavored with Assam tea. Shallots and garlic are first sautéed in duck fat, and then finely cubed potatoes and yams are added along with a mixture of aromatic spices, one bag of tea leaves, and a clarified stock made by slow-simmering a prosciutto butt. The ingredients are cooked until the yams and potatoes are soft enough be smashed and fluffed with a fork, then they are puréed together and held warm in a pot on the stove.

The rest of the menu sounds yummy.

40. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

The fucking insiders GLOAT about it. Lawrence O’Donnell on “Countdown” (typing from closed captioning):

LO’D: They’re not getting where the left side of their party wants them to go. They’re just hoping that they’ll have forgiveness from the left side of their party on election day in 2008.

KO: Any chance that they won’t, and what happens to the left side of the party if it doesn’t support the Democratic candidate in 2008?

LO’D: The Democratic calculation in the Senate is ALWAYS “the left has nowhere to go” but the Democratic Party. I’ve never been in a meeting in the Senate WHERE THERE WAS ANY OTHER PRESUMPTION (emphasis mine, as he delivered that line with smarmy self-satisfaction and a slight smirk)

And he’s fucking right. THE LEFT NEEDS TO STAY HOME OR LEAVE THAT BALLOT LINE BLANK, just as the right/racist wing in the party has done to more liberal nominees in the past. Vote Green, write in Chavez, draw a little “Free Mumia” graffito there …

Why doesn’t anybody want to face that? People should be saying “Thanks Ralph” for stating the bald-faced honest truth instead of blaming him for that wimp Gore’s abdication of his election.

No more from me. I’m done.

41. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

Rig Int has words to go w/ the graphic he put up the other day, about the sad truth of the people behind the comics that both he and I grew up reading.

Once a Marvel reader came to political consciousness, it didn’t take a decoder ring to know that Lee’s own leaned grievously to the right; far enough to make a costumed hero of a military industrialist, and to make his costume iron, as though his enfleshment was a weakness to be overcome, and then give him a sidekick called “War Machine.” In the movie adaptation of Iron Man to be released next Spring, his origin has been updated to include a kidnapping by jihadists. Two US Air Force F-22 Raptors and a Global Hawk make supporting appearances, which “shows they really went out of their way for us”; or so director John Favreau tells it on this Youtube posting of the Air Force News Agency.

Eventually, the Nick Fury-wannabes of this universe saw the upside in recruiting Lee’s original, and making the comic universe another front in the war on adolescent imagination. As though admitted an arrested development to their own fighting force, in 2005 the Department of Defense partnered with Marvel to launch a custom imprint for troops deployed to the Middle East. The event at the Pentagon “coincided with ‘Take Our Daughters and Sons to Work Day,’ so plenty of youngsters were on hand to get the first copies of the special comics”:

42. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

The Poor you always have with you:

WATCHDOG FINDS CRUCIFIXES MADE UNDER HORRIFIC SWEATSHOP CONDITIONS IN
CHINA

Crucifixes made under horrific sweatshop conditions in China are
linked to New York’s Saint Patrick’s Cathedral and Trinity Church, and
nationally to the $4.63 billion Association for Christian Retail.
Young women are forced to work 100-hour workweeks, while being paid just 26 ½ cents an hour. One worker cried out, “Jesus, take pity on me! I’m going to die of exhaustion!”

WHO: Charles Kernaghan, director of the National Labor
Committee, has exposed sweatshop production and child labor for Kathie Lee Gifford, Wal-Mart, GAP, Sean Combs, Disney, and the descent of the U.S.-Jordan Free Trade Agreement into human trafficking—with foreign guest workers held under slave-like conditions. Kernaghan recently testified at a U.S. Senate hearing on sweatshop toy production in China

43. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

LO’D: The Democratic calculation in the Senate is ALWAYS “the left has nowhere to go” but the Democratic Party. I’ve never been in a meeting in the Senate WHERE THERE WAS ANY OTHER PRESUMPTION (emphasis mine, as he delivered that line with smarmy self-satisfaction and a slight smirk)

There’s something else though.

The Democratic Party *could lose* in spite of the epic collapse of the Republicans over 2005 and 2006.

Why?

The vanity of Hillary Clinton.

Had the Democrats run Mark Warner they would have already won. But Hillary forced him out of the race by boxing him out of the big donors and media people.

So anytime somebody accuses YOU of being selfish, remember, the only thing that unites the Republicans is hatred of the Clintons.

And that might mean President Huckabee and Vice President Norris in 2008.

44. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

Fine w/ me … America DESERVES more rightist horror.

45. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

America DESERVES more rightist horror.

Which you’ll get with either party.

46. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

OK now I’m going to watch Jon Stewart, then read some DIGBY, then go out and make sure no wingnut’s touched the Kerry/Edwards sticker on my Volvo, then I’m going to go stick some pins in my Ralph Nader doll, then turn in for the night.

Remember. More and Better Democrats 2008.

47. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

Jon Stewart’s running the anti-Chavez line and playing on every Latin stereotype out there.

48. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

yup, so let them get the bitter medicine straight, not cut with a small amount of artificial sweetener.

49. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

Jon Stewart: “In South American isn’t a coup a midterm”.

FUCK YOU

Google Chile 1973 Kissinger

You it’s all them Latin greaseballs and their penchet for epaulets and swagger sticks you glib creep.

50. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

OOO Protesting Hillary meetups

http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2007/11/92864.html

51. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

Stewart is an idiot when it comes to Chavez, and has been for a while.

52. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

Stewart is an idiot when it comes to Chavez, and has been for a while.

I never realized what a racist against Latins he was.

I thought he was a sophisticated sort of guy who might have travelled a bit.

53. Madman in the Marketplace - 19 November 2007

everybody seems to have some stupid blindspot.

Oh, and Larry Flynt would like Dennis Kucinich to be our next President.

54. marisacat - 19 November 2007

the left has to stop voting for them.
But they won’t. And people have utterly cleaved to the idea that “your vote counts”.

But for voting there would be tanks in the street, etc.

L O”donnell is like a nice R. He was heavily for Kerry all along last go round.

Why would Warner be better? The guy who thought chocoloate fountains would grease the way. Did not quite work out, another White Daddy for kos, as I saw it.

One more shit. Frankly my take at the time was that the Clinton camp had dirt. Much more than shutting down big donors. That is too easy an excuse.

They would let him run for gov of Va. Or, he can try for senate for the old R Warner seat.

Such a pity it all is.

But people keep voting for war mongers.

55. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

Why would Warner be better?

He wouldn’t be better, just more “electable”. No wingnut could really build up a strong enough sense of outrage against Warner.

It would be like the Republicans running Lincoln Chaffee.

56. marisacat - 19 November 2007

electible means able to go the distance.

Warner was felled early in a poltiical battle.

Nothing more than a local bullshitter. I mean let’s get real, the car phone maven vineyardist. Always a whiff about all that money.

Or did he think the swamp BOrgias don’t play to keep. With Democrats that is.

May they all kill each other. Distribute weapons, etc.

57. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007
58. marisacat - 19 November 2007

such a rough road ahead for the boys and girls…

Democrats “are pretty jumpy on the issue,” says Rep. Luis Gutierrez, an Illinois Democrat who pushed for immigration overhaul in the House.

“They would prefer to allow the Republicans to shepherd the Hispanic votes into the Democratic column without having to scare away a single other voter themselves,” he says.

“That’s not likely to happen. “This election could turn on this issue if we don’t handle it intelligently,” says Connecticut Sen. Christopher Dodd, a Democratic presidential candidate. After a recent Iowa City foreign-policy speech, four of the 30 questions passed up to him from the audience were about immigration.

59. moiv - 19 November 2007

29

Think Progress deleting comments about Sibel Edmonds in the thread attached to a post from their honored guest blogger, Henry Waxman.

Brad protests.

Faiz -

This is Brad Friedman of BradBlog.com and you know I am a fan of yours.

That said, Sibel Edmonds story is not “9/11 Conpsiracy”. While many in the 911 movement have taken up elements of her story, she has been quite clear on what she does and doesn’t know about 9/11.

I suggest you read the allegations she has made (and others have made on her behalf) much closer, as you do a disservice to both your readers and your mission by declaring this important story of a landmark American FBI whistleblower as “9/11 conspiracy”.

As the legendary Pentagon Papers whistleblower told me, in the exclusive story I quoted him in today (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5260), Edmonds charges “are far more explosive than the Pentagon Papers”.

As to an earlier commenter who said:

This looks bad, but it could also risk looking like a partisan vendetta if Waxman pursued it aggressively.

This is hardly a “partisan” matter, which is likely one of the reasons it hasn’t been pursued, despite promises from Waxman’s office prior to the election, since he has gained the chairmanship.

it’s perfectly understandable that no credible news agency would touch her story with a ten-foot pole as long as it has the Damacletian sword of a judicial gag-order hanging over it.

There is no “judicial gag-order hanging over it.” The gag order has come from the Dept. of Justice, not the courts. And there is no longer any earthly known reason for such an unprecedented gag (to the point that she may not even give her date of birth, college degrees, and anyone who watches the 60 Minutes story on her allegations could be found in violation of accessing classified information, since the DoJ retroactively classified the report after it aired, incredibly enough!)

expecting an outlet in our corporate-dominated media to willingly open itself up to criminal proceedings for violation of a court-order is just plain gullibility. Sad, but true.

It may be sad, but the gullibility might appear to be yours. Please note the long record, in the country, of media outlets willing to take on such challenges to their First Amendment rights, and winning. The NY Times’ publication of Ellsberg’s Pentagon Papers are one such notable example.

To suggest that the media would or should NOT take on its responsibility as watchdog for the citizenry, especially in a case as notable, and credible (vetted by senior Senators from both parties, the FBI Inspector General, the 9/11 Commission and many others as exceedingly credible and serious) is, in fact, what is sad.

They need to be called out for their massive failure here. As, unfortunately, do my friends at TP for their inappropriate censorship of comments here. I will believe it is simply a matter of misunderstanding the story, for the time being. But I hope they will review this matter carefully, and contact me with any questions or concerns they may have.

Brad

Comment by BradBlog — November 19, 2007 @ 2:44 pm

60. marisacat - 19 November 2007

IIRC Think Progress is a CAP project, with a staff of 5.

CAP is a Clintonite endeavor.

Thanks for that moiv…
;)

61. marisacat - 19 November 2007

comment 19 is HCfM, rescued just now from Spam…

sorry for the delay!

62. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

Think Progress deleting comments about Sibel Edmonds

I’m weary of the latest scoop. Maybe it’s because that’s how “they” want me to be. Maybe it’s because I know that they already have enough information public to impeach Bush 100 times over and cut off aid to Israel forever.

It’s just the political will that’s lacking.

63. Hair Club for Men - 19 November 2007

From Daniel Ellsberg’s autobiography.

Nixon had Haldemann spread Kennedy conspiracy theories in order to much up the waters and discredit people who were trying to call attention to the real conspiracy (Watergate).

I’d even argue that the Ron Paul coin bust is similar to what the FBI did to AIM with “Camp 13″.

But once again, I’m weary.

The Internet’s only made things worse. Even Indymedia sites delete stuff they don’t like.

It’s just more noise and little content.

64. marisacat - 19 November 2007

well I am opposed to deleting. I don’t care how wearing it is…

AND of course they have enough to impeach. IF THEY WANTED TO. They don’t.

Just as I am tired of people bitching about how badly the Democrats are treated by the media.

They, the Dem party, participate in that. And LOL they delete. When it is inconvenient to the story line.

65. marisacat - 19 November 2007

I see donkeytitz and shitz finally dropped the paid for mask.

and it is not pretty. One more hater. What else is new.

Another garden well tended on the netteries and Blahgs. The haters. And of course the conservatives. Well tended, watered and fed growth hormones.

66. cad - 19 November 2007

I didn’t think it was funny when McCain chuckled along with the ugly old bigot and the audience, all sharing collective fantasies of a wife in every kitchen. It’s revealing as to how these folk really think.

67. bayprairie - 20 November 2007

I see donkeytitz and shitz finally dropped the paid for mask.

and it is not pretty.

he should push away from the keyboard and go work on his issues. its pretty evident he’s got more than a few.

and time is short.

68. moiv - 20 November 2007

I saw that he tried to clean up after himself in the next comment down, but it still left a greasy stain.

69. marisacat - 20 November 2007

some sort of stain, shall we say.

LOL.

Think that sort really gets off on it. Reminds me of noom/moon who lost it here in the thread to a post on Sabra Chatila camp massacres.

I am sure the horror set him off, in the same way.

Saliva running down their chinny chin chins.

70. bayprairie - 20 November 2007

that think progress thread is hoot. lots of pushback in that thread. someone should do the admin a favor and toss him a taser. most of the donk commenters seemed SHOCKED that TP appears as nothing more than a partisan organzation covering up for one of their stars by delenting inconvenient statements that contradict the “truth” the site sells.

never seen that before. :::yawn:::

some good comments though. I like this one.

The claim that the Sibel Edmonds posts were scrubbed because “9/11 conspiracy theories aren’t allowed here” is pure dreck. Those of us posting the info concerning Sibel Edmonds aren’t promoting any specific conspiracy theory…we’re just pointing out that someone who may have vital information concerning the worst terrorist attack ever on U.S. soil is getting the brush-off by Waxman. This is a fact. This is not a “conspiracy theory”.

71. bayprairie - 20 November 2007

and this one is priceless!

I’m just sorry this didn’t happen before I contributed to this site.

ca chinggggg!!!

72. marisacat - 20 November 2007

LOL.. the door can slapya on the way back IN, too.

I would hope that our commenters would measure us by the volume of our work and not by this one issue alone.

That said, if you wish to leave, that opportunity has always and will always be there for you. We’ll always be happy to have you back.

Comment by Faiz — November 19, 2007 @ 2:44 pm

73. moiv - 20 November 2007

Yes, some of the TP faithful seemed to be having a Saul-on-the-road-to-Damascus moment.

Knocked right off their donkeys.

74. marisacat - 20 November 2007

From Zuna Surf commentary:

#
Leslie, on November 19th, 2007 at 11:29 pm Said:

I picked up at least a pint of oil within a 10′ radius at low tide just off the boat launch from seadrift at Stinson only yesterday. Even though there was a contractor crew in the mud, there were only a few of them. We easily found oil in the marsh and foliage right up along the highway 1 side of the lagoon, and it really seems like if they don’t want people mucking around cleaning it up themselves, then they should get more workers out there doing it.

I talked to a ranger at Muir Beach later in the day and she thought it was politically motivated to open the beach and not really clean enough for people to be on yet.

The stuff is going to keep washing up so it is important to keep the pressure on to make the polluter responsible for continued cleanup as well as making some receptacles available for volunteers to dispose of the gunk.

75. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

Just as I am tired of people bitching about how badly the Democrats are treated by the media.

It’s only November of 2007. “The media’s being mean to Hillary” is going to be their whole campaign in the netroots.

76. Madman in the Marketplace - 20 November 2007

she thought it was politically motivated to open the beach

that is the source of so damned many problems.

77. Madman in the Marketplace - 20 November 2007

It’s only November of 2007. “The media’s being mean to Hillary” is going to be their whole campaign in the netroots.

yup, and Edwards said one smart thing last week. If Hillary thinks the little slap fightwas coming from Obama and Edwards is “piling on”, then she is even less prepared for next year than Kerry was for his campaign.

78. marisacat - 20 November 2007

sure it is… because it works with Democrats. Over and over.

Months ago the NYT ran a very mild 2 pager on The Clintons. On page 2 they mentioned by name the Canadian woman Bill had previously been publicly linked with… Couple very soft comments in the piece.

I personally thought it was a piece that the Clintons approved, sub rosa.

Oh the blahgs wrent their hair shirts. And I watched people rise to defend the Clintons (its a business really, verging on a life long event) and in her hour of need, turn toward her.

so yeah, “the media is so mean to Hillary” will be the theme song. And I must say Bill is esp peevish when he pulls that shit.

12 months. Too damned long.

79. marisacat - 20 November 2007

found this at Angry Arab, Monbiot on the ISraeli nuclear program

80. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

The Republicans are obviously trying to lower expecations. They’re going to come roaring out with everything blazing as soon as Hillary is official.

I still think the Dems will win (It won’t be a repeat of 1988. Hillary’s not as inept as Dukakis). But it *will* mean a bullshit campaign with Republicans “beating the bitch” and the Democrats calling 911 and reporting the domestic violence, every 5 minutes.

Nobody will talk about issues. Nobody right now is talking about Tom Harkins’s rigging Iowa against Kucinich.

81. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

Re: “Veronica the Viking” as European

Why do I get a sense from reading “her” Kennedy conspiracy posts that “she” is an American?

82. marisacat - 20 November 2007

“her” voice is too jumbled for me… by now it seems likely it is some construct identity.

I get tired of the theme that Europeans are better in all ways. Thanks, been around the block too often for that one. They are better at some things, for a range of reasons. And too many European countries have supplied far too much support to our Wars… and Afghanistan is not the clean game they try to make it seem…

83. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

Al Squirrelda terrorists attack the infrastructure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071120/ap_on_fe_st/odd_squirrel_outages

84. marisacat - 20 November 2007

LOL we’ll be getting the answers now! Nan wants HOmeland Security to investigate The SPill.

I caught her presser after the hearing. Oh boy. She has been stiff over the years (it is worse but nothing new) she has been tiresome and a few other things.

She is heavily into the role of Monarch. Pretty funny when you think of it.

85. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

“We” just turned Bilel Hussein over to our Iraqi puppets. Jesus Christ. That’s probably a death sentence.Too bad for him he’s just an AP photographer and not a Blackwater thug.

86. marisacat - 20 November 2007

This is the first time the bipartisan commission, which has overseen the debates since 1988, plans a format allowing the candidates to question each other. Frank J. Fahrenkopf Jr., the commission’s Republican co-chairman, said that contrary to past experience, the candidates would not be allowed to change the format. “The candidates aren’t going to dictate to us anymore,” Mr. Fahrenkopf said.

The debates have become a huge traveling road show, with a cast of 4,000 extras from the worlds of politics and the news media. In the case of Oxford, which has only 700 hotel rooms, overnight visitors will be bused to Tupelo, Miss., and Memphis.

They added St Louis to Oxford MS, Nashville and Hampstead NY – Apparently NO was in the running and has been told, “not ready”. No kidding.

87. marisacat - 20 November 2007

85 – I just opened a couple of reports on that…

88. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

Rand Corporation (an ex Vietnam counterinsurgency expert) is behind the Harman thought crimes bill.

Good thing the “netroots” is all over this.

89. marisacat - 20 November 2007

39

madman

just reading the thread from the top (sigh I miss things as it goes by)… thanks for posting that! He has not been doing Food posts… and i have missed them.

IOZ is one of the few online I would wish to meet. And see his kitchen.

90. marisacat - 20 November 2007

several good posts at WHo is IOZ… including the Thanksgiving dinner food post that Madman linked to up thread…

91. marisacat - 20 November 2007

strikes in France spread (but little reported in the USA! USA!, that I have caught)

While the majority of French supported Sarkozy’s pledge to modernize France in the presidential elections in May many are beginning to feel disappointed with the failure to improve their daily lives six months on. Although there is little popular support for the transport strikes, many people sympathize with the civil servants’ complaints about the difficulties of making ends meet.

Despite the opinion polls showing that popular support is dropping, the government has said that it will stand firm, with Prime Minister Francois Fillon saying the reforms must go through. The president has been keeping an uncharacteristically low profile over the past week, in an attempt to avoid aggravating the situation, but he is expected to give a major speech later in the week on measures to increase people’s purchasing power.

And last week the theme in the reports was that this would all weaken quite quickly and Sarko would rise as a Gallic (but not Gaullist) Batman AND Robin.

Or something.

92. JJB - 20 November 2007

Hair Club, no. 49,

On the 25th anniversary of JFK’s assassination, one of the NYC public television stations ran the tape of NBC’s coverage of that event. IIRC, they started at precisely the time it did on 11/22/63, and it went on all through the afternoon, evening, and night until 11 PM. It was fascinating to watch and see and hear, for example, how so many eyewitnesses were said to have heard shots from the by-then infamous grassy knoll, and so few from behind the Presidential limo, and how quickly details about Lee Harvey Oswald became available after his name was first mentioned. But for me, the most interesting thing was a commentary that Edwin Newman did shortly before the 11 PM signoff, a very harsh critique of US society that stated that we loved to make fun of the “banana republics” of Latin America, but as bad as those might be, the deposed leaders generally were not killed. He also made mention of the assaults on Adlai Stevenson when he’d been to Dallas a few weeks before the assassination, and assailed us for being such a violent society. As I listened to this, I was struck by the realization that this was still just 1963, and things were very shortly going to get a whole lot more violent and bloody.

Of course, he didn’t mention that the reason there were so many “banana republic” coups was that the US was behind most all of them, sometimes as the primary actor.

Reading that material about Sibel Edmonds is fascinating. Peter Dale Scott’s notions about “Deep Politics/Deep State” probably come closest to describing the real world of intelligence agencies, the military, big business, organized crime, etc., and what Ms. Edmonds is talking about w/r/t Turkey is just one branch of it.

93. marisacat - 20 November 2007

and how quickly details about Lee Harvey Oswald became available after his name was first mentioned. —– JJB

to me, very evocative of the speed with which Osama and individuals were identified in relation to 9/11.

94. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

and how quickly details about Lee Harvey Oswald became available after his name was first mentioned.

Not that hard to figure out. Oswald lived in the Soviet Union and the FBI probably had a file on him.

Does it mean they were behind the assassination? Well, I wouldn’t put ANYTHING past a human being as evil as J Edgar but is there proof? Well, not really.

Same with MLK. Did the FBI conspire to kill King? Absolutely. He was the ONLY civil rights leader Hoover specifically told his agents not to inform of assassination plots. So clearly they were hoping it would happen.

Was James Earl Ray employed by Hoover? Could be. But once again, no proof.

Life’s pretty strange. It’s possible James Earl Ray came out of nowhere and the FBI agents surevilling kill were like “holy shit now we don’t have to take him out”.

That’s why we should read more novels. There are conspiracies. There’s also chance.

95. JJB - 20 November 2007

MCat,

What I find most interesting about OBL is that, although he’s been perfectly happy to claim responsibility for 9/11, BushCo. showed very little interest in getting him. I don’t think Tora Bora was miscalculation, I think it was deliberate. I don’t find it at all impossible to believe that story about OBL being debriefed by the CIA while staying incognito at a hosptial somewhere in the Gulf region. For all his ferocious anti-American sentiments, I’m sure there’s some project he and the CIA could collaborate on to their mutual advantage (like maybe OBL running intelligence cells throughout Central Asia and the Muslim areas of China). Or the family used its influence to save his life, maybe a combination of both. In a not dissimilar circumstance, the Mengele family always knew where Josef was, hell, he was able to get a West German passport using his real birth certificate in the mid-1950s and travel with it to West Germany to visit his relative, he just walked into the embassy in Buenos Aires. Blood is thicker than water. I think the B-Ls made the necessary phone calls to powerful friends, and managed to ensure he had a safe conduct out of Afghanistan.

96. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

Same with Malcolm X. Did the government kill him? Possibly. BUT most of this cointelpro stuff takes place in environments that are sectarian and violent anyway. It’s possible Malcolm was offed by his sectarian rivals.

That’s what made Iraq soooo easy for Negroponte. It’s a sectarian country with a history of dictatorship swimming in guns. It was a cakewalk for their black ops people. They could have used interns. Just show up with a few pallets of money and stir up some shit that’s already there.

They’re probably high fiving one another and celebrating about it still.

97. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

The problem with the standard issue “left’ view of Osama is that it underestimates how late Osama and the Saudis got into Afghanistan.

He didn’t even go into the country until 1984. He DID have one huge shootout with the Russians in 1987. The the Afghans kicked the Arabs out and got down to the serious business of civil war.

Osama could be a US government asset. But more likely he’s just a product of the violent extremist movement that the US government infiltrated (and I mean Al Qaeda not the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan) but didn’t necessarily control.

98. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

And of course I’m mainly going by Lawrence Wright and Robert Fisk. Neither of them is exactly a neocon but I’m also trusting them.

99. marisacat - 20 November 2007

Was James Earl Ray employed by Hoover? Could be. But once again, no proof.

Life’s pretty strange. It’s possible James Earl Ray came out of nowhere and the FBI agents surevilling kill were like “holy shit now we don’t have to take him out”.

I found the “trial” the King family staged, the fact they maintained contact with JER for 30+ years very convincing. Also the book their atty wrote, Act of State. Harper Collins, no shock, wanted the two grafs on the second two man team in memphis that day exised, so he took the book to Verso, which published it intact.

and sure I also believe in chance. But we worked out assassination in this country, told what US citizens woke up to it, that it was reserved for ‘off shore’.

They just cannot get it, what we do offshore COMES HOME. One way or the other. Always has, always will.

100. marisacat - 20 November 2007

95 JJB

yes I would agree with all of that. AND it serves long term US interests to have OBL “out there”. Just as the USSR falling was not the best deal for some factions in the US.

So trapped. Must have enemies forever. And we do have enough of them, but want more.

101. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

A lot of the conspiracy theories you’re willing to believe depends on what you want to believe.

Take Wellstone. A lot of liberals believe he was murdered because they believe he was a genuine threat to oppose the invasion of Iraq.

But he wasn’t. They had no need to kill him.

Same with Kennedy. Noam Chomsky wrote a book debunking the JFK conspiracy theories. He proves there was no conspiracy by proving Kennedy was a good imperliast and no threat to the military.

But does that mean some jealous mobster who’s girlfriend Kennedy Fucked didn’t find this angry little misfit name Lee Harvey Oswald and….

102. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

yes I would agree with all of that. AND it serves long term US interests to have OBL “out there”.

Now that one I buy. Of course they let him go.

103. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

Just as the USSR falling was not the best deal for some factions in the US.

Actually the USSR WAS a real threat. Bin Laden not so much. The reason they didn’t take out Saddam in 1991 WAS the fact that the USSR was still a possible threat. Boris the Boozehound freed up their hands considerably.

Now Putin on the other hand. I’m betting if Boris the Boozehand were in power we’d already be in Iran.

104. marisacat - 20 November 2007

I find Chomsky and Cockburn both tedious, they both strike me as in a panic about LEFT WING CT.

Bullshit. CT is all over the horizon, the most frantic the most paranoid to me (for decades) are RW conspiracists.. and wealthy RW conspiracists are just manic, out beyond Pluto, as I call it. Fucking LUNATICS.

Frankly I rarely discuss “CT”, of any kind. You end up having to define what it is, over and over. ad flaccid nauseum.

I’d rather just think about it than have to qualify, trim and hem and define endlessly.

105. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

I find Chomsky and Cockburn both tedious, they both strike me as in a panic about LEFT WING CT.

Chomsky only wrote one book about Kennedy and to be fair, he doesn’t even like to talk about 9/11 conspiracies.

He doesn’t go out of his way to debunk them, just gives his opinion when cornered.

106. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

the most frantic the most paranoid to me (for decades) are RW conspiracists..

Alex Jones, for example, who probably thinks that there’s a government conspiracy behind not getting the good seat at Starbucks.

107. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

On the other hand Alex Jones is a highly entertaining fiction writer whose fiction contains a good deal of “truth”.

108. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

But I guess where I differe with Markos is that “while extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” the idea that the US government would do evil isn’t a particularly extraordinary claim. In fact, evil is the standard operating procedure for the US government.

But you still need GOOD evidence. While I don’t find it hard to believe that a drug addict would shoot his mother for her social security money, I don’t want him going to jail without a trial.

BUT I still want to see the trial, not stop the trial for any kind of political expediancy yada yada.

109. lucid - 20 November 2007

It was horrifying. A mantra repeated thru the game… and then damn if the ND team did not win. Much weeoing form those emotional fuckups the Irish (or “Irish for a day”, you know how it goes). And then a commerical promoting the ‘Fighting Irish”.

Fun facts about ND. If you are female student, get pregnant & are not married, you get kicked out. Still.

Students aren’t allowed in dormitory wings housing the opposite sex beyond a certain hour.

The deans have the resident advisor priests spy on the students living in their dorms.

I must confess though, having grown up with 7th row season tickets to ND basketball games, I still follow the team religiously, even if I have to go to radio stations like this to get the live audio stream of the game…

110. marisacat - 20 November 2007

The deans have the resident advisor priests spy on the students living in their dorms. — lucid

for some reaosn that reminds me of a mini scandale we have going out htere… some suburban Catholic church has had a new parish priest sent out, the old one is retiring. Come to light, he has some “incidents” in his past, from 30 years ago.

parents are up in arms, outraged, church and current parish priest are shrugging shoulders. The parish priest was on film saying:

what are we do with things he was charged with 30 years ago? Supposed I start telling some of what the parishioners have confessed? Think they would like that?

Gotta luv the Catholics. Shits all around. COming and going. LOL some paretns have wept and whined and “left the church”.

Have to laugh, why are they surprised?

111. JJB - 20 November 2007

Noam Chomsky wrote a book debunking the JFK conspiracy theories. He proves there was no conspiracy by proving Kennedy was a good imperliast and no threat to the military.

JFK was most certainly not a good enough imperialist for the American right wing in the early 1960s, as anyone who ever read the contemporary Hearst papers such as The New York Journal-American knows. He backed away from war over both Berlin and Cuba, and negotiated a settlement in Laos that calmed down war fever over that useless piece of real estate (it’s now forgotten, but we almost sent US combat troops and conduted heavy air bombardment to a part of Indochina other than Vietnam a couple of years before the Gulf of Tonkin incident). Moreover, he left Castro in power, which infuriated both organized crime and the CIA, as the latter had used the place as an offshore bank and a staging area for other Latin American operations with the considerable help of the former.

I’ve never been a fan of Chomsky’s, I find him not only tedious but simpleminded. Cockburn, for all his virtues as a muckraker and satirist, was an apologist for the Soviet Union right up until its demise. Had we decided to take down Saddam in 1991, the USSR would have been powerless to stop us. They had to let their eastern and central European empire go, they couldn’t even hold their own country together.

As to the assinations of the 1960s, I’ll just say this. If RFK had lost the California primary, he’d have had no chance at the Presidency, and he might still be alive today. OTOH, had he gone out the front of the hotel as I believe had originally been planned (I remember reading contemporary news reports that they went out through the kitchen because the crowd in front of the podium was too big), someone else who was lying in wait there would be sitting in Sirhan’s prison cell as his assassin.

112. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

JFK was most certainly not a good enough imperialist for the American right wing in the early 1960s

They were blackmailing him 20 ways to heaven anyway. RFK never dismissed Hoover because Hoover had, um, pictures.

So why shoot him. Why not give him a fait accompli then smear him?

113. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

And why kill Kennedy and take your chances on LBJ when Johnson was FAR to the left of Kennedy?

114. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

Cockburn, for all his virtues as a muckraker and satirist, was an apologist for the Soviet Union right up until its demise.

He was right. The typical Russian has it worse off now and the world world would be better off if the US ruling class were facing Mao and the USSR, not a few motley religious fanatics.

115. marisacat - 20 November 2007

I think o ne of the hard truths about The ETernal Govenment, as I call it, is extreme internal factionalism and infighting. To the extent that elements were nto controllable.

Dallas was rife with threats against Kennedy…. From what I understand it was discussed in the WH to cancel the trip and iirc Jackie wanted it cancelled. They went.

I saw Dealy Plaza in ’81, little had changed. It looked a perfect set up for a turkey shoot.

And Connolly refused that the bullet be removed post mortem, a good way to stanunch or confirm the endless rumors.

116. bayprairie - 20 November 2007

I saw Dealy Plaza in ‘81, little had changed. It looked a perfect set up for a turkey shoot.

imho this is true even today, it still looks as it did in the films i’ve seen, apart from the size of the trees.

117. marisacat - 20 November 2007

bay it was eerie.

The Book Depository (wiht the early version of the musuem installed, using big almsot 19th c style free standing glass display cases) the flow of the road, the grassy knoll, the railroad tracks.

i was utterly transfixed. Time had not moved.

118. JJB - 20 November 2007

MCat, no. 110,

I don’t know why I’m still amazed at the deference people give to institutions like the RC Church, or indeed any other organized religious sect. By this time, it should be obvious that, for example, Billy Graham is the worst sort of narrow-minded, provincial anti-Semite and right-wing rabble rouser, yet he’s still treated respectfully by the MSM. It’s like that with the Army too, no matter how badly it disgraced itself in Vietnam, the public still insists on believing it’s an honorable institution that produces persons of character. One wonders how many Al Haigs, Colin Powells, William Westmorelands, and David Petraeuses(sp?) we’ll have to endure before that notion is finally disspelled. The Army remained a respected institution in France even after the Dreyfuss Affair showed how rotten the men at its core were, even the disaster of the First World War and the still secret summary executions of 1917 didn’t ruin it completely. I suppose defeat and collaboration in the 1940s, followed by the war in Algeria finally did the trick, but it took a long time. Ironic that the attempt by various generals to overthrow deGaulle (of all people!) and the infant Fifth Republic should have done the trick.

BTW, France’s civil servants have joined the strike. The first paragraph in this passage should provide some good laughs once you read through the rest:

The walkouts looked increasingly like the last gasp of a protest movement that started with train drivers but seems to be losing some punch after a week of major travel disruptions.

Talks with transport unions are to start Wednesday and the government said it would take part.

Tuesday marked the seventh full day of the transit strikes against pension reforms.

Hundreds of thousands of civil servants — teachers, customs agents and tax inspectors — also stayed off the job to press for pay raises and job security.. . . More than 300,000 teachers — about 40 percent — were on strike Tuesday, the Education Ministry said, and some schools were forced to close. Flights also were delayed and postal services were affected.

National newspapers were absent from kiosks as printers and distributors joined the walkout. Strike-hit France-Inter radio broadcast music and a message of apology instead of its regular programming.

National weather service Meteo France, which has 3,700 employees, said a third of the staff members were on strike.

Thousands joined protest marches in Paris and other cities. The Paris demonstration had a picnic atmosphere, with music, roasted sausages and balloons marked ”Public Service is a Public Good.” The demonstrators marched across the Left Bank to the gold-domed monument at Les Invalides, site of Napoleon’s tomb.

About one in seven employees at France’s main energy utilities, Electricite de France and Gaz de France, were on strike, the companies said.

Striking air traffic controllers caused delays averaging 45 minutes at Paris’ two airports, Charles de Gaulle and Orly, affecting both short domestic routes and long-haul flights.

So more and more workers from all different phases of industry and the civil service are joining the strike, thousands are taking to the streets to protest, Sarkozy has been forced to abandon his strategy of trying to kill the strikes with silence and spew rather desperate sounding rhetoric as ”[w]e will not surrender and we will not retreat,” ”[y]ou have to know how to stop a strike,” ”[y]ou have to think of all of those who have to go to work,” and declaring that the walkout must end or it will bring ”the economy to its knees,” but the protest movement looks to be issuing a “last gasp.” Oh, here’s the story’s last para:

Campuses are also bubbling with discontent. Knots of students have been blocking classes at dozens of France’s 85 state-run universities to protest a law allowing them to seek nongovernment funding. Critics fear the change will mean schools closing their doors to the poor and scrapping classes that can’t attract private funding.

Three writers are said to have contributed to this very confused piece, but then things may be happening too fast for the MSM to keep up, especially in France where everything from travel to communications is being adversely affected.

In 1968, the students started things, the workers joined in, and there was very nearly a revolution. Now the order may be reversed, we’ll see what results.

119. JJB - 20 November 2007

Hair Club, no. 112,

So why shoot him[?]

Have you ever known right-wing nuts to behave sensibly? They don’t now, they didn’t then. Militarists were convinced he was an appeaser like his father, and his avoidance of war with the USSR was considered by many to be a willingness to back down and allow the Soviets to dominate the world scene. His timid backing of the civil rights movement was also too much for many a right-winger. This was an era, don’t forget, when such allegedly “respectable” journals of opinion as The National Review were writing that “The South Must Prevail” because:

The central question that emerges … is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not prevail numerically? The sobering answer is Yes — the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race. It is not easy, and it is unpleasant, to adduce statistics evidencing the cultural superiority of White over Negro: but it is a fact that obtrudes, one that cannot be hidden by ever-so-busy egalitarians and anthropologists. … National Review believes that the South’s premises are correct. … It is more important for the community, anywhere in the world, to affirm and live by civilized standards, than to bow to the demands of the numerical majority.”

His tomcatting probably proved to be the last straw. Google up the name “Ellen Rometsch.” She was believe, rightly or wrongly, to be a Communist spy, and Kennedy was having an affair with her.

As to Lyndon Johnson being “far to the left” of JFK, I don’t know what universe that would be in. Johnson himself stated that his Great Society initiatives were essentially pushing through legislation that Kennedy hadn’t been able to. And he was only too happy to do what Kennedy had, up his death anyway, refused to do, use US combat troops in Southeast Asia.

As to the USSR, it was one of the worst societies ever to exist, and no one arguing otherwise deserves to be taken seriously. Even Cockburn seems to have come around to that opinion, he recently published a piece in Counterpunch favorably discussing a book on the horrors of the Stalin-era Soviet Union.

120. marisacat - 20 November 2007

hmm I was spared the parochial school “experience”… but by now, parents who turn their children over to the parish schools are basically volunteering them for [potential] ritual sexual sacrifice, imo.

During the extended laying out of JPII, in cosy conversation with a couple of US bishops, on a rooftop, cannot remember if it ABC or CNN, they unabashedly said “stories” of priests abusing children “were lies, told to discredit the church”. And they knew this as the Communists had done this as well.

Good luck little parents, clutching the rosary beads. And the hymnal.

121. marisacat - 20 November 2007

speaking of defending the USSR… there used to be (and may still be, the few left were grandfathered into the building codes and zones) a little shack, that could be seen from the circuitous route up to Coit Tower… when ever we passed it my father used to begin to almost giggle.

A couple, who were very pro “Red Russia” lived there. And took off in the late 30s to live in Russia. WElllllllll… couple of years later, they very quietly came back… and no more conversation about communism and the USSR/Mother Russia. Very very quiet…

LOL. So classic.

122. marisacat - 20 November 2007

oh too funny. Koswhack1 will now also write for The Hill…. the joint where Josh Marshall the Zionist and Dick Morris hte no principles hack of all time turn in their sheaves of brilliance (among others, I forget whoo all writes for that paper).

… and who were those people predicting his imminent demise? After his stellar greatness of 2005 – 06.

Geesh get a grip.

123. paine - 20 November 2007

i see the gang still rolls along here

i’ve had three meme-acidal junctureboxes
implanted in my head quarters
i feel like bagdad
‘cept
now i’m cure of any stray thoughts
about a better place
focus i can
on industrial death by installments
featuring our stretch pat special opportunity
the double zero
wall street to peking
my casa is their casa
balance of payments plan

124. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

As to the USSR, it was one of the worst societies ever to exist, and no one arguing otherwise deserves to be taken seriously. Even Cockburn seems to have come around to that opinion, he recently published a piece in Counterpunch favorably discussing a book on the horrors of the Stalin-era Soviet Union.

Really? The society that beat Hitler, the people who put their bodies on the line to beat fascism is one of the “worst societies ever to exist?”

I guess you’re just going to have to not take me seriously but, if you’re going to hold up (I don’t know Sweden) as an example of a society you’d want to emulate, I’ll have to return the favor of not taking you seriously either.

Now Cockburn (and whether it’s the good anti-communist Cockburn or the bad Stalinist Cockburn) notwithstanding, you have to remember that in 1917, Russia had already been battered by three straight years of war, even after being one of the most underdeveloped countries in Europe. Immediately after going Communist and pulling out of the war it was attacked and blockcaded by all the western powers using the mother of all contra movements (the royalist Russians) and spent close to a decade in a civil war. No sooner was that civil war over then they were invaded by the Nazis, which (unlike the cowardly Swedish “socialists” who sat out the war while their fellow workers were being slaughtered all over Europe) they still beat.

Now, I’m not arguing the USSR was perfect but if you check out life expectancy rates, you’ll find them longer in 1964 than now, astonishing. And that was 1964, when the USSR was still serving as the counterweight to the USA in Africa (something that pushed Kennedy into supporting civil rights).

The fall of the USSR and the neoliberal takeover of the second most powerful country in the world has been a massive tradgedy we’re still dealing with.

And I’d like to see that Cockburn article where he admits the cold war liberals were right if you don’t mind :)

125. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

As to Lyndon Johnson being “far to the left” of JFK, I don’t know what universe that would be in. Johnson himself stated that his Great Society initiatives were essentially pushing through legislation that Kennedy hadn’t been able to. And he was only too happy to do what Kennedy had, up his death anyway, refused to do, use US combat troops in Southeast Asia.

But I can’t see right wingers just having Kennedy killed and trusting the (very liberal) and massively egotistical LBJ to do what they wanted.

Unless they had a deal with him, which I’m not quite willing to buy.

126. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

And took off in the late 30s to live in Russia. WElllllllll… couple of years later, they very quietly came back…

Story sounds common but the dates sound wrong. I don’t think they could have gotten out of Russia a couple of years after the late 30s, considering that they would have had to cross the Russian and Nazi tank lines.

127. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

But on the whole I’m with Warren Beatty on the issue.

128. marisacat - 20 November 2007

earlier then. Works for me.

129. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

So you’re saying some rich Americans went to Russia hoping to find a pre-fab socialist utopia and then saw that life would be tough and came back to San Francisco?

Wouldn’t this be a bit like my going to Nepal to fight with the Maoists then coming back and complaining that there was no Starbucks?

Maybe. Maybe not. There aren’t enough details to make a judgement. But I do know that Paul Robeson went to the Soviet Union many times and continued to defend it. I guess he can be excused of overlooking its shortcomings in civil liberties considering that he would have been living under Jim Crow in the USA USA, and that the American government took his passport, subjected him to 24/7 surveillance and that people who went to his concerts were routinely terrorized by right wing goons.

130. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

And note I’m quite sure I’m one of the only people who would defend Ron Paul and the Soviet Union.

Maybe my Communist self has an evil libertarian twin.

131. marisacat - 20 November 2007

you are reading way too much into this.

And who said they were rich?

Ignorance of SF in the between the wars if I may say so and ignorance of who lived in the old shacks.

Give it a break. Unless you want to say no one went to Russia and found quite the opposite of dreams.

Look, I also champion Harry Hay, of the Mattachine Society, who was loyal to the CPUSA for decades. The idealogy offered equality of races and sexual orientation. He embraced it.

Oh I am sure Robeson was championed inside Russia. Let’s get real.

132. marisacat - 20 November 2007

Wouldn’t this be a bit like my going to Nepal to fight with the Maoists then coming back and complaining that there was no Starbucks

Come on. You are making me laugh.

133. marisacat - 20 November 2007

Maybe my Communist self has an evil libertarian twin.

Oh don’t tell me you are trying to be a communist?

134. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

And who said they were rich?

As I said, I don’t have enough information. But I’d guess that even in the 1930s during the height of the Depression, the poverty in Russia would have shocked some American expats.

The idea that they would have gone to Russia and came back because of the lack of civil liberties doesn’t ring true to me. Even now in Patriot Act America, I rarely notice the way my freedom’s been stripped from me and I suspect that in the USSR Americans might not have had it as bad as most Russians.

It’s a lot like an American soldier going to Iraq and being disillusioned because he discovers we’re not fighting for democracy after all. To me, if he had the choice to come back, it would be more about the immediate horror of the war.

And there’s also the fact that a lot of misfits went to Russia who probably didn’t fit in here (Lee Harvey Oswald being a good example) and expected to find paradise instead of a third world country with nukes.

But be that as it may, I still think that the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1989 and the tranformation of China into a global sweatshop is a horror and a historical event that most people in the USA don’t even consider. It’s the key even of our time. It’s what made the USA and the American ruling class into an unchallenged monster.

We think far more about a few religious fanatics in Muslim countries (who are at best just a slightly more suicidal version of the Weathermen).

135. marisacat - 20 November 2007

The idea that they would have gone to Russia and came back because of the lack of civil liberties doesn’t ring true to me.

I did not say that either. There was much to horrify westerners, sheer fucking hard life for one.

I agree with you on China. But not to worry, seems clear to me America plans for war with China… I just hope to die first, to be honest.

And India is slap happy with 300 million middle and rising to middle class. They don’t care any more about rampant poverty than do the other “great nations”.

136. marisacat - 20 November 2007

Robeson’s son is one of the few blacks I can stand to listen to… and I am sure he suffers deprivation of opportunity for his books and whatever else. Still the taint.

137. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

I agree with you on China. But not to worry, seems clear to me America plans for war with China…

I think it’s more than just that though. Russia, China and the EU are all still powerful countries and the USA USA is getting weaker.

It’s about the sheet impact of the fall of Communism (whether or not you think Communism is good or bad), the fall of a secular, universal idealogy as a counterweight to American capitalism.

The lack of any balance turned the USA into a monster and the American ruling class into people who think they can play God.

This isn’t to say the whole process wasn’t helped along, in fact that’s the point. When the USA through Suharto killed 500,000 Indonesia Communists in 1965, what did that leave? It left Islam as the only alternative.

Social Democracy and Liberalism by their very essence can’t counter the USA USA because they only work in rich countries and with the middle class. It’s a bit like trying to argue that you can counter Wahhabism with Unitarian Universalism. What hope does that give to someone in the third world dying in a shack?

Seriously, if Che had managed to get his 4 or 5 Vietnams going in the late 60s and the USA had been brought down, the world would be a pretty good place right now.

138. marisacat - 20 November 2007

whoever rules the world will be a horror.

Yes I know the US is weakening. One wonders how many of the 1000 bases Chalmers Johnson thinks we have, rather than 750 or so, are just shells.

139. Hair Club for Men - 20 November 2007

whoever rules the world will be a horror.

It won’t be Americans certainly but it will be a transnational corporate elite, exactly what Marx predicted actually.

But I think Marx was too much a figure of the Englightenment to anticipate how good brainwashing would get.

I think that Madeline Albright’s comment really sums up the attitude of the transnational corporate elite. 500,000 dead children was “worth it”.

That’s not just arrogant. It’s satanic. That’s what I mean by Alex Jones as being a fiction writer that gives us a lot of truth wrapped up in the fiction.

The specifics of his paranoid nightmares might not be true (that the corporate elite is going to reduce the population so they can use stem cell research to live forever) but the general sense of it is true.

Any elite that can give us Madeline Albright (not even that far to the right), someone who could dismiss the deaths of half a million children like that as “worth it” can do anything.

I just see the same thing happening to my own children and grandchildren, if I ever have them. Unless they get into the elite, I’ll be long dead and they’ll be hunted for meat like in the Planet of the Apes.

140. marisacat - 20 November 2007

new thread…

LINK

141. BooHooHooMan - 20 November 2007

Hair Club # 108 But I guess where I differe with Markos is that “while extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”…

That whole DK frame is ludicrous re 9/11 or any other major crimes investigation…Especially In the territory of transnational orgs and Nation State ops its even moreso…

The “inside job” angle to me is no less “extraordinary” a route to pursue than “the husband did it for the insurance money”…..

The idea that Israel had Intel that was ignored or even had a self serving provacative/ facilitative role is a variant: The Fiance did it for the Insurance money.

The Average American has not grok’d even a tabloid understanding of the background of our involvement in the ME, Afghanistan ……Sad, really, given that a mind for soap operas and reality TV is a terrible thing to waste….

What gets me about the al Qaeda “verdict” is the witholding of evidence that paints quite a bit more complex and unseemly picture : Disavowed Stepchild formerly on payroll to Western Crime Family slaughters innocent bystanders on foster parent’s property….

142. marisacat - 20 November 2007

it already is a transnational corporate elite. IMO… but you know, be sure and vote for Senator McDreamy, It So Matters!

143. BooHooHooMan - 20 November 2007

Senator Steve McQaeda ! The Studio Cheifs can haggle over merchandising!

144. JJB - 20 November 2007

Hairclub,

And I’d like to see that Cockburn article where he admits the cold war liberals were right if you don’t mind.

I never said there was any such article, just one where he forthrightly discussed the nightmare that was Stalinist Russia. It appeared in the last couple of weeks, did around for it yourself. BTW, Stalin was delightedly selling Hitler the petrol he needed to send the Luftwaffe to bomb London in 1940, so don’t give me any of that rubbish. If Hitler hadn’t attacked him, he’d have delightedly sat back and watched the Germans overrun as much of the world as they could.


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