Liberation 23 March 2008
Posted by marisacat in 2008 Election, AFRICOM, Border Issues, Culture of Death, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, Israel/AIPAC, The Battle for New Orleans, WAR!.trackback
In all the swirl and whirl… I remembered that Moyers had James Cone, of Black Liberation theology, on his show a few months ago… dug up the transcript…
BILL MOYERS: What does it say to you? I mean, Jena’s one thing because of the tradition and history of the south. But, how do you explain the presence of these nooses anonymously– placed in the New York area? Columbia, as you say? Long Island where I lived for 25 years. Not far from where we’re sitting right now. How do you explain that phenomenon?
JAMES CONE: You know, racism and white supremacy is– was not confined to the south. It was all over America. It’s just expressed in different ways. So, it’s as deeply– in many ways, more deeply felt and present in the north of the – or outside the south largely because it was not acknowledged.
BILL MOYERS: We just — recently saw this book called Lynching in the West:, photographs from Ken Gonzales-Day, as he went searching for California’s lynching trees. This is California.
JAMES CONE: Yes–
BILL MOYERS: Three hundred–
JAMES CONE: Yes– yes.
BILL MOYERS: –lynching trees he found out there. I mean, that’s the far west. That’s not the south. That’s–
JAMES CONE: Lynching happened all over. In Pennsylvania, in New York, in California. All over America lynching happened. Now, it was more prominent in the south like Mississippi and Georgia. But and the terror – was deeply embedded there. But, it was a part of America. And that’s why Malcolm X said, “Mississippi is America.” It’s not– you know, it’s not separate. And so, you know, Malcolm X came from the north. And his voice was a lot more militant than King’s who came from the south. And so Malcolm was trying to get people to listen to something that they didn’t want to listen to. Now, King knew. His truth was obvious. Malcolm’s truth was not so obvious.
BILL MOYERS: The truth that?
JAMES CONE: Truth that white supremacy is as present in New York City as it is in Jackson, Mississippi. That’s the truth. And when America can see itself as one, not just the south did the lynching, but it is a part of American culture, then we can figure out how we can start to overcome that. You can’t overcome something if you never acknowledged its presence.
BILL MOYERS: Do you acknowledge the presence of crucifixion and lynching today?
JAMES CONE: Yes, I do.
BILL MOYERS: Where?
JAMES CONE: It’s in the prisons. It’s in prisons. It’s all over. Prisons, I would say, is the most prominent.
JAMES CONE: Crucifixion and lynchings are symbols. They are symbols of the power of domination. They are symbols of the destruction of people’s humanity. With black people being 12 percent of the US population and nearly 50 percent of the prison population, that’s lynching. It’s a legal lynching. So, there are a lot of ways to lynch a people than just hanging ‘em on the tree. A lynching is trying to control the population. It is striking terror in the population so as to control it. ::snip::
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
He touches very briefly on Obama during the discussion, he does not know him personally.
Moyers was prompted to have Cone on as he caught a tape of a 2006 speech Cone gave at Harvard on The Cruxifixion and the Lynching Tree. I tried to attach a link to the video of the speech but it seems (and I had suspected) that part of the freeze and crash I have been having relates to some videos. Whether I run them or not, something in the code or whatever hangs up the computer.
Sorry… but if anyone wants to see the speech it is eaily googlable.
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madman – my easy test for rooting out one’s inner misogyny is to look at whether one responds to every forceful female politician – cynthia mckinney comes immediately to mind – in the same way as one does hillary. while i’m pretty sure that the rhetoric of misogyny is more often than not stubbornly present – in the back of one’s mind if not on the tip of one’s tongue – the tip off is when someone defaults to the same dismissive put down regardless of their politics.
but given how gendered the language we speak is, and how gut-level misogynist our culture and cursing vocabulary tends to be, once one is adamantly opposed to a politician like hillary, it is maddeningly difficult not to reach for the loaded language.
actually, that’s one of the things i found most impressive about samantha powers’ description of clinton as a monster – totally devoid of any gendered spin or undercurrent, unusual for such a strong denunciation of a female politician.
in the same sense, one might also ask oneself whether one responds to irritating, corrupt, insider hawkish male politicians with the same vehemence or in the same manner.
link to the video Marisa mentions above.
the tip off is when someone defaults to the same dismissive put down regardless of their politics.
That’s a good test. Thanks. I do try to check myself, though, because when I was younger and dumber I think I did fall into that very trap sometimes.
Oh, and thanks for fleshing out the Taiwan/China dynamic.
whack a monster.
Well as part of that sort of discussion, I wore out on the demonisation of BUSH, years ago.
The most salient, pertinent thing I ever read about Nixon was
He comes from us.
I read so much for years on Watergate, Nixon, the whole flap, that I wish I could remember who wrote that.
But that is the truth.
America needs to internalise the demonisation (plenty of which is propagated byt he Democrats to offload facing ANY reality).
Soon.
The other valuable thing I read about Watergate itself, was that ‘the system did nto save us. We got lucky’…Soem writers tried to tamp down the victorious bullshite of how glorious we were to be open about Watergate… etc… and WHY we got lucky is pretty much a mystery.
Like so many crucial cross roads in America.
3
thanks…
no problem.
I run into some sites that don’t like my browser too … it’s damned frustrating. For mine it’s usually MSM sites that try to force a popup or something past the blocks I have turned on. MSNBC is particularly bad since their latest “upgrade”. I basically can’t read anything there anymore. Freezes, then crashes.
SUCH a precise science:
Latest Delegate Counts
MSNBC: Obama 1,626, Clinton 1,506
CNN: Obama 1,622, Clinton 1,485
ABC: Obama 1,618, Clinton 1,493
AP: Obama 1,617, Clinton 1,498
CBS: Obama 1,616, Clinton 1,485
The New York Times, doing its kindly bit to keep the woggies down where they belong…
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/fashion/23envy.html
Bite back on that schadenfreude over the woes of the elect at Bear Stearns! Horrible, horrible things could happen if the rich are threatened.
Our new Governor Paterson has been saying some veeeery interesting new things to some very interested audiences this past week. He is smart enough to say them quietly at this point, though…
Petraeus says he has evidence that Iran was behind Green Zone attack yesterday. Cheney must be salivating at the thought.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7311565.stm
Check Juan Santos’ latest: Obama’s Denial: The fear of a Black Messiah / Part Two of Barack Obama and the “End” of Racism
oops James
if you are sstill around, think the link failed…
Here, I found it
Juan Santos, Obama’s Denial…
Protests mar Olympic flame-lighting in Greece
New Pakistan PM orders release of judges
From Juan Santos:
The Cinderella reference is interesting. I’d read a column last week titled “Obamarella” and had been thinking about writing a post related to that fairy tale, but from a different perspective with Hillary as the wicked stepmother who was holding Obama back from reaching the prize (the “prince”, the presidency, his “rightful” future) etc.
So, speaking of misogyny as well, I wonder how much of that wicked stepmother character (the “cackling” etc) subtlety comes to mind in the minds of anyone who’s ever been exposed to that fairy tale when they see Obama as a victim – a role he doesn’t mind playing as he proudly touts his underdog status – to the powers that be: that wicked, evil woman who must be stopped.
Your pumpkin coach awaits, Obama. See you at the inaugural ball.
Thanks. I guess I goofed the html code.
HA! I had saved the graphic from the Obama-rella column i read, it was an edition of The Note, a few days ago.
What a hoot! Because the clock striking midnight will nto be pretty.
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No problem James. Very interesting article. I will take a look at Part 1 too.
8)
16. one could also gauge misogyny by how men treat women closest to them.
An earlier Juan Santos, Feb 10, on Barack O.
18. When I Googled to try and find the article, I saw that the Obama as Cinderella meme has become quite popular, involving different perspectives.
We’ve already been well-schooled (those of us who have chosen to be, anyway) on the power of myths (James Campbell) and of symbols and the unconscious (Carl Jung), not to mention the impact of those Disney-styled fairy tales (lifted and reformed) and how they impact our lives’ prejudices, yet they all continue to play largely unexamined by a media (MSM and blogs) that’ are addicted to the latest soundbites, videos, speeches, the endless examination of words and quotes, and the sensationalism that goes along with that. So, much of the public rides that wave without giving much thought to what they’re actually reacting to internally – even the so-called “intellectuals” who’ve written column after column in favour of this or that candidate. No wonder political issues (ie. the war, foreign affairs, the economy, health care etc.) have taken a back seat to feelings.
“Clinton Doesn’t Care” — What Whining B.S. (2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:Bob Love, jksesq1
I don’t agree with what Clinton is doing, but the smug, self-righteous, arrogant, petulant, immaturity of the Obamacult here — up to and maybe especially including this website’s founder — is stupid and counterproductive to the max.
People might not agree with what Clinton’s campaign is doing, but to say that they don’t care is flat wrong. They have the right to campaign for the job. The woman is obviously ambitious, and she’s been angling for this for years and years.
Hillary Clinton was a Democrat when “Kos” was soiling his diapers. Saying she doesn’t care is that kind of crap that WILL split the party. Tell me, “Kos,” what is politics to you? A massive exercise in the extension of your own ego, or the art of persuading people to see it your way?
We all know that Obama will be the nominee. The numbers couldn’t be clearer. The actual voting, etc., is going to be anticlimactic. What might NOT be so anticlimactic, on the other hand, is the deafening silence that greets your arrogance when you ask for help from the same people you’ve spent several months shitting on.
by Rambler57 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:21:31 PM PDT
He doesn’t care. People who disagree with him are expendable. (Kind of Bush-like, when you think about it.)
Trouble in River City!
Shoot out at High Noon in Dodge!
works for me.
Actually while I hope Obama-Rama gets the nom… I don’t think it is anywehre near a sure thing. One reason the drum beat is up again for her to drop out. His supporters and his handlers want to try to avoid the primaries coming up. If they can.
They still think they are running aginst Daffy Duck.
I laughed pretty hard over Richardson, the whole thing…. And I think that “Judas” slam had to do with ass covering done for Richardson during hmmmm, was it Wen Ho Lee?
We’ll know more after PA… and NC and Indiana.
I think Hillary is in this for the very long haul; she wants to move the goalposts, and I don’t think her opponents are prepared for that. I think she’s campaigning for 2012 right now, to be honest. It would be tragically hilarious, or hilariously tragic, if she fought this up to the convention but didn’t show at the convention. Now that would be jiu-jitsu.
As I said before… I think both the Democratic campaigns are triumphalist this year, at a time when it just seems cognitively dissonant to sound such a triumphalist note. Especially Obama’s campaign. This sense of “Now it’s our generation’s turn, we get the prize, yay us, and once it’s won, the world will bow down and worship us again as shining leaders of right and truth…” — um, no, I don’t think so. That ship has sailed.
Cheney has been traveling back and forth between Israel and Saudi Arabian this week. Easy to figure out what they were talking about.
Cheney to Saudi King: Please process more oil.
Saudi King to Cheney: Solve the Palestintian issue before the whole ME blows up.
Israelis to Cheney: We don’t have to listen to anyone. Bomb Syria and Iran for us, then we can talk….
um, no, I don’t think so. That ship has sailed.
You America hater you!
26 – I don’t think it has anything to do w/ short-term oil supplies. I think it’s part of a build up to try again to drive for an attack on Iran. The countries he visited this time are much the same as the tour he took before the US invaded Iraq.
Personal/Political
I just cannot help but laugh when it comes to the whole “Clinton must drop out” meme. The whole Obama camp purposely overlook the Texas primary considering the count is no where near being completed.
Boyd Richie, Chair of the Texas Democratic Party, recently wrote an op-ed telling people to take a chill pill
Time had an interesting article about the whole process – So Who Really Won Texas? The article states pretty much the same thing thing I wrote.
Can’t help but wonder if they read my blog post.
ooops found two of madman’s in Spam file…
I set them free!
8)
Thanks!
30. The whole Obama camp purposely overlook the Texas primary considering the count is no where near being completed.
I didn’t know that. The last thing I saw about it was victory being declared for Obama on the BBBs. Hmmm… Thanks for posting that.
HA!
Last I looked, Obama ’08 on their main page claims both TX and NV as wins.
check the map.
Chris Floyd: Still Not Worried? Petraeus Blames Iran for Green Zone Attack
I see Obama is getting some blowback for not noting the deaths of Iraqis in his statement on the 4,000 US troops killed.
Iraqis in moderation.
I have a feeling this is being done on purpose by the BBB as a way to force the delegates to vote for Obama, especially if they can get Hillary to drop out.
liberalcatnip and Madman out of Spam…
8)
Patriot Act haunts Google service
Here’s a news story on that “win”:
Yes, propaganda is quite efficient.
One of the dkos diaries.
And everybody knows that if KO said it, it must be true.
That diary got over 5,000 diggs even though digg had to offer this disclaimer:
Frontline tonite (here):
Bush’s War – Part 1 of 2 (new)
Dems Consider Mini-Convention to Pick Nominee
They really are a fucking joke.
catnip out of spam, Madman out of moderation, or the reverse.
Sorry!
8)
nytimes commemorates 4000 US dead in Iraq with an interesting picture:
http://tinyurl.com/2nxs7j
#43 Just finished PBS Frontline “Bush’s War” Part 1.
Blistering, very well done.
Looks like Paterson is on a pre-emptive mission to confess all of his sins publicly. Stay tuned next week when he admits to wearing women’s lingerie.
… waiting for it to come on here…
LOL what is the matter with Paterson?
Can he not just blame the white granny or the black pastor?
Blame someone!
Tell him to get with the Dem party programme.
47. It was …and infuriating once again as well.
Tell him to get with the Dem party programme.
I guess he didn’t get that memo.
41 gotta love that propaganda … Texas style
The way things are going with the Dems, I guess we can look forward to our 100 years war.
It is obvious that why Obama is taking that anti-war stance, he favors using mercenaries in Iraq.
Who the hell needs the army, when you can use black ops (no pun intended) to do all the dirty work.
Think XP named the culprit, 2012. St clair agrees.
Bill Richardson: one one of the shows – Blitzer’s, I think – he said he didn’t want to talk about Carville’s Judas remark. He said he wants to talk about the issues instead. And now, here he is on Larry King tonite repeating, for the umpteenth time, that he doesn’t want to get “into the gutter” like that again. For someone who doesn’t want to talk about it, he sure is talking about it a lot.
53. Thanks for that quote. I’ve written about his “plan” a few times but that’s the first time I’ve seen him admit wanting to keep the contractors there. He doesn’t like “dumb” wars. He does like “quasi” wars, however.
Missing: monks who defied Beijing
Neil Aspinall, the ‘fifth Beatle’, dies aged 66
I thought it was funny today when Clinton speechified about her plan for a panel of economic advisers to solve the HUGE depression that awaits, Obama’s campaign (releasing a statement from him because he’s off on his vacation in the Virgin Islands – I doubt they used cheaptickets.com for that trip) said the panel thing was their idea from last year.
It reminded me of that female SNL character who always one ups everybody, Oh yeah…I have a panel too…a really big panel with a lot more people…big names…and they actually fixed the economy yesterday…
Canadian gophers notch a win in man-rodent battle
Yes, I live in redneck country.
Hilllary accused of plagiarism now? The Obama campaign might not want to bring that up again ….
This story illustrates the priorities of this country. Breaking International laws against torture gets you promoted, but have an affair and lie about it, and you’ll be fired.
Navy: Former commander fired for lying
I remember him at the Pentagon briefings … he must have stepped on someone’s toes pretty badly …
I definitely rmember his name from the briefings…
Yes, I remembered his name and his photo in the article was familiar right away … it’s odd to fire a Navy Commander for something like that … I bet there’s more to it …
LOL Think this sums it up (full text, arrest me!):
What a mess they’ve made …. and polls are now showing McCain ahead of each of them … unbelievable that McCain whose campaign was over just a few months ago, arose from political death and won the nomination … so it’s not as though he’s all that popular and yet, he’s beating them both ….
The Dem Party’s only alternative, if they want to win in Nov., seems to be an Obama/Hillary or Hillary/Obama ticket. I don’t know how many from each side would stay home or vote for Nader, if their candidate doesn’t get the nomination, but some will and it might be enough to let McCain win …
Lol, but then there will be a battle over who gets the VP spot …. and it’ll start all over again …
It would almost be worth Hillary winning the nom. to see how quickly Kos spins around to support her ….
People are shocked that he opposed her. I don’t know why, it’s a very comfortable place for him to be in, slamming a Clinton. People forget who he was during the Clinton presidency, a typical, gay-hating rightwinger, one of those who were obsesssed with Clinton …. it’s why he wrote his little diatribe about gays seeing him in his underwear ….
So, to be back where he started out, with a Clinton to bash, he’s got to be in virtual heaven …
I cannot wait until next spring. These presidential campaigns suck up political oxygen and give nothing back in return.
According to a report I saw on the “Today” show just before leaving for work, there’s been an incident in the Suez Canal where an ordinary looking freighter that is in fact a US naval vessel (hired on a short-term contract to ship cargo) fired on some small boats owned by people who go around to the ships in the canal and offer cigarettes and various trinkets for sale to the crewmembers. Seems they got too close, and the sailors opened fire (after, of course, firing warning shots and flares, they’d never panic and just open fire first). One of the trinket dealers was said to have been killed, and a few others wounded. Here’s the only story I could find about it.
Also, Basra is seeing some very heavy combat between the so-called Iraqi Army and the militias that are in control of the city:
Thanks JJB….
I had heard nothing of the Suez…
And did just see street fighting in Basra. Seems to be the wave of the future.
in todays candidate zoological methaphors, it is Barack who is the beaver and Hillary is ….the trout?
http://tinyurl.com/3997zy
Love this headline over at TPM:
Petraeus: I’ve Decided Not to Make a Decision on Troop Withdrawal
Was that before or after he forgot what he’d forgetten to forget?
Also note that the Mehdi Army controlled (more or less) by Muqtada al-Sadr is involved not only in the fighting in Basra, but has enforced what appears to be a general strike in West Baghdad (from Juan Cole):
The move to exert some kind of central government control over Basra appears to be part of a concerted effort to once again rein in al-Sadr’s militias, who are the most powerful of the various groups in control of the southern port city. Whether or not anyone considered that he might strike elsewhere in retaliation is not clear. Anyway, Iraq’s nominal prime minister is actually in Basra, and said to be directing the effort. Also, it appears we wanted the Brits to send in troops to do it, and Gordon Brown said “NO!”, although he is backing up al-Malicki’s effort with air power.
#28:
wispy little thread fluffer. All in a dither.
I really recommend renting Coppola’s The Conversation, one of the best political (and suspense) movies of all time.
Take a deep breath and face that it is all sides. Both sides. Everyone.
Love “The Conversation”, one of my all-time favorites.
Btw, 4 rockets hit the Green Zone today. Fubarama.
wispy little thread fluffer. All in a dither.
Somebody has a little anger management problem.
Take a deep breath and face that it is all sides. Both sides. Everyone.
Blasphemy!
61. Hilllary accused of plagiarism now?
What’s that about, sabrina?
Afghan aid money spent on high salaries
Not exactly a newsflash…
What about the Afghans who risk their limbs every bloody day?
Oops…screwed up the html. Sorry.
Btw, I just heard Hillary answer a question about possible VPs and she mentioned Ed Rendell. Don’t take my word for it though. I was only half paying attention.
Heavy fighting is spreading throughout Iraq:
If this keeps up, the much vaunted “surge” will be seen for the charade it’s always been.
Exploding kossack heads over what Hillary said she would do if she had a pastor like Wright.
Apparently, that response was just beyond the pale and the crowd is going nuts in the comments saying she opened the door to be asked why she stayed with Bill (as if that’s anybody’s business – who cares??).
There sure are some judgmental Dems who are relishing the chance to bring up Lewinsky every chance they get. How many years has it been now and they’re still angry? What’s wrong with that picture? Sheesh. Get over it already. She has.
This comment in that thread got 21 recs:
There are some seriously disturbed people over there.
And this one:
Orange Freeperland.
“He would not have been my pastor,” Clinton said. “You don’t choose your family, but you choose what church you want to attend.”
Ishmael Reed in Counterpunch
http://counterpunch.org/reed03252008.html
If two CNN reporters on the show Ballot Bowl surmised on Sat. that Obama’s association with Rev. Wright hurt him, why doesn’t Hillary Clinton’s association with Billy Graham, her spiritual advisor, hurt her? In a Time interview, Hillary Clinton reported that the evangelist “fulfilled a pastoral role during the Monica Lewinsky scandal and helped the First Lady endure the ordeal.”At that time, Clinton said,”Graham was ‘incredibly supportive to me personally. And he was very strong in saying, ‘I really understand what you’re doing and I support you. ‘ He was just very personally there for me.’” Billy Graham in a conversation with Richard Nixon described the Jews as “satanic” and offered that they owned the media and peddled pornography.
Did Hillary know about that at the time? Didn’t those tapes surface this century? And, afaik, Hillary hasn’t attended Graham’s church for 20 years, has she?
81. Billy Graham was a white protestant. {always hated every US president having to kowtow to him}
On top of that, what’s wrong with her response? She just said what she’d do if she found herself in that situation. She didn’t say anything about Obama’s decision to stay with the church.
Every little statement is seen as an attack on Obama, the poor victim. Is that who you want in a president? A perpetual victim? He even said he disagrees with some of Wright’s statements but his supporters are jumping all over each other to support those statements Obama has disavowed. Maybe they should be attacking Obama for condemning the words of his pastor if they feel that strongly about the idea that Wright has been misinterpreted.
The hypocrisy is stunning and his online attack dogs are just making themselves look like fools.
Did Hillary know about that at the time? Didn’t those tapes surface this century? And, afaik, Hillary hasn’t attended Graham’s church for 20 years, has she?
Part of the reason I don’t know the answer to this question is that the media hasn’t asked it.
If Hillary and Graham were black, I bet I would.
But hmm, when did those tapes with Nixon come out.
Looks like 2002.
BUT I’ve seen photos of Hillary with Graham that look very recent.
And John Kerry certainly knew about the Pope’s shielding Cardinal Law in 2004. There’s a double standard.
What’s the double standard? She said if she heard her pastor at her church make those comments, she’d leave the church.
What’s the double standard? She said if she heard her pastor at her church make those comments, she’d leave the church.
There’s a double standard about the standards the media holds a particular church and it’s about politics.
The conservative evangelicals or Catholics get off easily.
The more liberal churches are held to a higher standard.
I also think Hillary’s participatig in the religious test being applied to Obama. Her response should have been “I don’t believe in religious tests for office, period.”
Kerry in 2004 was never asked about Cardinal Law at the Vatican.
The only thing he was slammed for was his DISAGREEMENTS with the Catholic church. The media became the Pope’s enforcer.
87. There’s no doubt that the fundie connections aren’t big news anymore. I think that’s just because everybody and their dog has already heard about the crap that they spew.
How is Hillary “participating in the religious test”? She simply answered a question about Obama’s pastor problem. No “religious test” there – not from where I sit, anyway. Afaic, if America did an honest job of really separating church from state, these situations wouldn’t happen. But, as long as there’s a blend of the two that the majority decides it can live with, issues like this will keep coming up. In terms of sexism, racism, religiosity and other issues, America still has a very long way to go. The cultural/political climate fuels these stories.
You know, clergycritters say stupid things all the time. The Brits like to joke that their gentry always sent the family idiot into the vicarage. A great many Jewish comedians have reaped gales of laughter lampooning the idiocies spoken by rabbis. Catholics tend to keep their anti-clerical jokes in-house, but are only too happy to regale each other about the soporific nature of many priests’ sermons, their fondness for alcohol, and shamelessness with regards to demanding more money in the collection plate. I really don’t care what any of these Persons of God say, and think it’s particularly obscene that this “issue” is dominating the news at a time when the situation in Iraq and possibly Iran seems to be reaching the point of critical mass.
The media became the Pope’s enforcer.
It’s been that way for as long as I can remember.
Ismael Reed has said interesting things about Barack as well. Which have been posted here. And are at Counterpunch.
As for WRight, issues of and arising from, the thing I find interesting is that I am supposed to get excited. In any direction.
Poor Marty Peretz, who supports Obama, is lost in his scrabble writings (and of course he has other posts on Wright! The Phenomenon!,, including one that points to a very settled upbringing in Philadelphia).
But here is a bit of a comment, to the first post linked, that sums up close to what I feel…
it’s particularly obscene that this “issue” is dominating the news at a time when the situation in Iraq and possibly Iran seems to be reaching the point of critical mass.
Amen to that.
There’s no doubt that the fundie connections aren’t big news anymore. I think that’s just because everybody and their dog has already heard about the crap that they spew.
Because the media accepts it. Remember, nobody in the media called Obama on his Christian faith when he used it to reject gay marriage. That was fine. It was only when it became about israel and about racism. Then Obama had to swear an oath of loyalty to Israel and the white race.
The difference is that the Catholic Church has global adherents. In big numbers.
Graham is known, rather like J Edgar, to hold a succession of presidents in his grasp.
The Wrights are still knocking at the door. And make no mistake, they do want in.
I did laugh when I read the text of him (part of the Jan 13 sermon tha ttouched on Bill and Monica as well) selling oBama from the pulpit as a “Black Liberator”.
No difference other than Wright’s power is much more local than either the Pope’s, or a US bishop or Graham. . I realise the defenses of him claim a global ministry, but it is not there yet. His political power is essentially local.
The Democrats pander to and make use of the elements of the Black church that is homophobic.
Works for them.
94. I’m not disagreeing with you about the way the MSM goes after these issues and, with respect to Obama’s pastor problem, my only point has been that it will no doubt be used against him in the GE (because that’s obviously to be expected). What Obama decides to do or say about that problem isn’t my concern. Afaic, he can attend any darn church he wants to. It’s still, supposedly, a free country.
As for the I/P situation, I see the ZOA (Zionists of America) are really pissed with him. I don’t know why since Obama’s certainly not throwing their concerns off the bus (like he is the Palestinians’). I think that’s a manufactured controversy.
Oh Menwhile Wright says, Thanks for Asking!
Supposedly he has been spotted taking an Easter break at the Ritz Carlton in PR.
LOL
Wright’s going on a road trip after his vacation: Rev. Wright to Deliver Sermon at Florida Church
Ooops:
Iraq would fall apart if al Sadr wasn’t holding back. (Well, fall apart more, that is). That tells us who’s really in charge of things over there.
Once again, I learn something new (via CNN):
So, “pledged” delegates don’t really exist. Interesting.
As for the I/P situation, I see the ZOA (Zionists of America) are really pissed with him. I don’t know why since Obama’s certainly not throwing their concerns off the bus (like he is the Palestinians’). I think that’s a manufactured controversy.
ZOA is a group that’s to the right of AIPAC. They’re a grotesquely fascist organization that no presidential candidate would ever be asked to denounce.
Afaic, he can attend any darn church he wants to. It’s still, supposedly, a free country.
Let me suggest something. The United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian church (both liberal) have resolutions against the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
Had it not been for Jeremiah Wright, the fact that the United Church of Christ decision to divest its holdings from Israel would have been used anyway. It might not have had the same resonance but it would have been used.
The sad truth is that there’s a state religion in the USA, conservative evangelical Protestantism. Right wing Catholics and Jews are also OK but liberal protestants are largely considered no better than atheists.
Note. Dean was also slammed for it in 2004.
Basra looks to be an effort to further implicate/highlight Iran in Iraq – we’re ‘only’ going after Shia militia ‘elements’ w/ an Iranian conection – ahem . . .
Sami Ramadani:
more there on coincidental timing of Cheney’s past visits to various mosque bombings. irrc, J Cole (or D Jamal ?) were writing about efforts to break the oil workers’ unions back in 2003-4.
ZOA is a group that’s to the right of AIPAC.
I figured that out when I saw their site. They’re apparently a big organization though – yet another one on the attack. Based on what? I’m not sure. Obama doesn’t believe in the right of return for Palestinians and seems quite fine with the occupation as it is (in general), along with Israel’s so-called “right to defend herself”. I don’t see how his presidency would change what’s going on there any more than McCain’s or Hillary’s.
Wexler is his spokesperson on the issue: Obama is a strong friend of Israel
Obama supports Israel. Period.
On the delegate thing, exactly… A point I have made.
IF this reaches the convention, Super Dels and so called pledged dels will vote on the 1st 2nd 3rd etc ballot.
There are no rules at all for Super Dels. None. Nor limits or caveats on persuasions that can be used.
So called “pledged” delegates are ultimately free to move as well. Tho I would think they would move as blocs, more likely.
Obama’s in moderation with Israel.
105. Well, this is all very tenuous then and the pledged delegate numbers being pushed by the MSM and the BBBs are just a smokescreen – a feeling. Democracy sucks, I guess.
attacking candidates who are willing to accept 75-80% of our agenda in order to whip them even closer to your position is pretty commonplace, especially with the effective israel lobby. both dean and obama are pretty middle of the road labor-likud friendly dems, but by zeroing in on any slight deviation from the hard right israeli agenda, they send a message to everyone else out there.
if hillary was to the left of obama on this issue, even if just a step, they’d be flaying her publicly, like they did back in the 90s when she treated the palestinians with a modicum of respect as first lady, before the NY senate seat’s political calculus pulled her way to the right.
it’s the difference between relative and absolute positions.
as or iraq, if the madhi army gets fully into the mix, and makes common cause with sunni insurgents as juan cole has suggested could happen, things in iraq could end up changing pretty quickly.
or it could just be sadrists positioning for the 2009 elections by locking down shiia cities. if they get ahold of basra, there are some pretty huge assets that go along with it.
if they get ahold of basra, there are some pretty huge assets that go along with it.
No one could have foreseen the breach of the levees…
LOL She won’t be air kissing Suha Arafat in public… not anytime soon.
And I am pretty sure that Obama did what worked in his church and his district. And if he could get back the photo of him sitting with Mr and Mrs Edward Said, he would.
nu thred
LINK
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#82 – Catnip ‘did Hillary know’ about Billy Graham’s comments about Jews to Nixon …. well I knew, but of course that doesn’t mean Hillary did … she didn’t know about Saddam not being a threat to the US, eg, when simple, ordinary people around the world knew.
What is wrong with Hillary’s response to the question about Wright is that she is feeding into the notion that religion has any role in a presidential election …. of course she already believes it should, as her involvement with the rabid, religious righties demonstrate ….
Her response, as a Senator, or even just a citizen, should have been along the lines of ‘I fail to see the relevance of this question. I have no knowledge, nor do I wish to have, of the religious beliefs and practices of other Americans, including those running for office.’
Either you support the Consitution regarding protecting the rights of all Americans to practice their religion without state interference, and to prevent any religion from ever becoming the religion of the state, or you don’t. Prying into what sermons someone heard over a 22 year period in their church, how they were affected by them etc., why they chose their church, questioning their right as a parent to bring their children to a particular church, all of this is so offensive that it is difficult to put in words and elected officials like Hillary should refuse to answer such questions, and use the opportunity to remind people of the danger of mixing religion with politics.
Instead, she caters to the media frenzy, and imo, because either she does not believe in the separation of Church and State, or she does but is willing to ignore it for political reasons …
Most politicians are very amenable to religion becoming an ever more potent force in public life, politics.
Because USA USA REligion, black white and other colors too is mostly all about control. Power and money. Very little good works for the amount of foolishness. Just enough good works so everybody feels good.
In fact it is easy to read that very thing (him running is good for religion in the public square) said about Obama (Ej Dionne, a Catholic, but also Dawkins who as a proponent of Black Liberation is being widely quoted but often only identified as a member of TUCC, not as a major pusher of BL) and for it to be noted as highly desirable.
What a fucked game of shit sandwich they ALL are serving us.
WIth crosses branded onto the toasted bread.
Oh yes baptised Catholic here and fully in love with the ritual. But not the power games and lecturing finger and so on.
Yes, I know they all appear to be on board for religion in politics. One of my main objections to Obama early on, was his catering to the notion that ‘faith’ was desirable in politicians and that liberals rejected it, basically slamming the base of the Dem Party whenever the subject came up. Maybe now he can see why it is always a bad idea to mix the two and that many of the liberals he tried to distance himself from, were not against religion, some even quite religious themselves, but were aware of how it would be used, as it is now, against him.
If anything there is a real irony in the fact that he, of all the Dem candidates, who pushed to have ‘a conversation’ among liberals about ‘faith’, should be in the position he is now in.
He was warned, but I suppose he thought he could do what has never been done before successfully, introduce religion into politics without consequences. I objected mostly to the notion he played into, that when liberals who are privately religious, choose not to broadcast their beliefs, they must therefore object to religion entirely.
It was a constant irritation to hear him react defensively to attacks from the right on ‘godless liberals’, as even if all of them are ‘godless’ that is their right, as it is HIS right to choose what church he goes to with his family. I never understood why he did not see the trap that waiting for him by his publicly supporting introducing religion into the political arena ….
He was not concerned about any possible trap and very apparently did not even plan for the contingency. LOL No Plan B. Not too smart.
I think the reason he was comfortable being so oblivious is that furthering religion in politics is something he was handed as a JOB.
From Wright to state senator Rev James Meeks of Chicago (another Obama booster, mad an ad for him in 2004) to Billy Graham and in between, these religions are politicised. (And, imo, far less radical than many suppose.)
And as such, fodder for discussion. Wright pushed Obama the candidate from the pulpit. Game over. Graham and his ilk enjoy a place of privilege for being the acknowledged State Religion. All but.
It would be so nice to put the genie back in the bottle. But the genie is wearing a military uniform and armed.
Interesting that the press didn’t ask Hillary about Wright’s visit to the Clinton WH ….
You may be right as far as ‘state religion’ – it certainly seems that way.