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Salute! looks like it to me…. 20 April 2008

Posted by marisacat in 2008 Election, Abortion Rights, Culture of Death, DC Politics, Europe, Germany, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, Italy, Sex / Reproductive Health.
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Priests giving the Hitler salute
Priests giving the Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933. (Source: A Moral Reckoning: The Role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust and Its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen)

^^^^^^^^^^^

The photos are from an interesting site, colleen sent me the link months ago, saying I might find the photos useful. Seems appropriate now…

The Concordat between the Vatican and the Nazis

Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII) signs the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican at a formal ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933. Nazi Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen sits at the left, Pacelli in the middle, and the Rudolf Buttmann sits at the right.

The Concordat effectively legitimized Hitler and the Nazi government to the eyes of Catholicism, Christianity, and the world. The full text of the concordat appears on the Concordat Watch website. (click here to see the text).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Here is a nice little tidbit from the Concordat Watch link above:

Concordats”, Catholic Encyclopaedia, 1913:
“…It were to be desired that the Church should never need concordats, and should always find in civil rulers devoted children….”

************************************

UPDATE, 1:47 pm

The comment from JJB that languished in Spam for about 3 hours (very sorry!):

JJB

Well, this is certainly interesting. Alexander Cockburn is publishing an article by Doug Valentine in the Counterpunch newsletter that claims John McCain was a collaborator during his incarceration in North Vietnam. There is a short excerpt available online:

McCain had a unique POW experience. Initially, he was taken to the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison camp, where he was interrogated. By McCain’s own account, after three or four days he cracked. He promised his Vietnamese captors, “I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital …

His Vietnamese captors soon realized their POW, John Sidney McCain III, came from a well-bred line in the American military elite. . .The Vietnamese realized, this poor stooge has propaganda value. The admiral’s boy was used to special treatment, and his captors knew that. They were working him.

. . .two weeks into his stay at the Vietnamese hospital, the Hanoi press began quoting him. It was not ‘name rank and serial number, or kill me’. as specified by the military code of conduct. McCain divulged specific military information: he gave the name of the aircraft carrier on which he was based, the number of U.S. pilots that had been lost, the number of aircraft in his flight formation, as well as information about the location of rescue ships.

Somehow, I don’t think he’ll be asked about this by Russert Potato Head on Press the Meet, or by Tweety Blueballs.

From Feel the love…,

**************************************

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Comments»

1. Madman in the Marketplace - 20 April 2008

Priest tells off Faux news “reporter”.

Does a pretty good job of it.

2. Madman in the Marketplace - 20 April 2008

I have a piece on the Pope and baseball stadiums up at LSF.

3. marisacat - 20 April 2008
4. Madman in the Marketplace - 20 April 2008
5. Madman in the Marketplace - 20 April 2008

Three States Subjected To “Martial Law Sweeps”

Federal law enforcement agencies co-opted sheriffs offices as well state and local police forces in three states last weekend for a vast round up operation that one sheriff’s deputy has described as “martial law training”.

Law-enforcement agencies in Tennessee, Mississippi and Arkansas took part in what was described by local media as “an anti-crime and anti-terrorism initiative” involving officers from more than 50 federal, state and local agencies.

Given the military style name “Operation Sudden Impact”, the initiative saw officers from six counties rounding up fugitives, conducting traffic checkpoints, climbing on boats on the Mississippi River and doing other “crime-abatement” programs all under the label of “anti-terrorism”.

WREG Memphis news channel 3 reported that the Sheriff’s Department arrested 332 people, 142 of whom were fugitives, or “terrorists” as they now seem to be known.

Hundreds of dollars were seized and drugs recovered, and 1,292 traffic violations were handed out to speeding terrorists and illegally parked terrorists.

6. diane - 20 April 2008

You always provide such relevant, nail on head, pics, Marisa.

Thank you.

7. marisacat - 20 April 2008

Cop Nation.

8. diane - 20 April 2008

5

Likely Blackwater was involved….

doomed……..

9. diane - 20 April 2008

1

Great link, thanks!

10. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

LOL what a hoot…

Looks like a shell game.

11. Miss Devore - 20 April 2008

3. I think he’s deciding if the pope is a C or a D cup.

12. Madman in the Marketplace - 20 April 2008

3 – I just hope he remembers to pinch the tip so that the Pope doesn’t lose proper sensation.

13. Madman in the Marketplace - 20 April 2008
14. marisacat - 20 April 2008

speaking of police state.. I saw this at left i on the news yesterday. I think in his short text he makes the point of the picture.

****

isn’t the skullcap pic a hoot!? I was looking for pics of Benedict in his most luxurious outfits and landed on that too.

After reading the link IB posted in the last thread (near the end) about Benedict returning to glory coats and under dresses, fur trim (lookin’ good for the capelet to be skin) from literally hundreds of years ago, thought I’d look… and it is true, garment upon garment. Petticoat upon petticoat…

15. marisacat - 20 April 2008

ooops! forgot the left i on the news link at comment 14

16. marisacat - 20 April 2008

OK! Looking even better for the capelet, I am reading at some fanatical pro Benedict bulletin board (just short of halfway down, photos of the head gear, John XXIII and others) that the camauro, the red velvet fur trimmed cap or snood, is, in winter, lined in ermine. As is the mozetta, the short capelet, lined in ermine in winter.

I am thinking he had a ‘spring in NYC’ fashion statement… a sheared, foral design, ermine outside! mozetta on for St Patty’s.

17. diane - 20 April 2008

1

Interesting, maybe that priest vs fox video has been rapidly removed (Gutless Lying Fockers!)?

The first time I tried to play it, it was rewinding at the middle of the video as the priest was reminding that asshole that Racism is alive and ‘well’ in the US, so I closed the page and tried to re link, all I’m getting now (have cleared my cache) is a totally blank page, anyone else having problems?

18. Miss Devore - 20 April 2008

I’d like to see the pope in some ancient Mary Quant stuff. A short dirndl dress, fishnet (invoking St. Peter) stockings. And long bangs. Jeanne Shrimpton papacy.

19. marisacat - 20 April 2008

ooops apologies, I just found this comment of JJB in spam file from this am…

I will add it ot the post above so the embedded links are avaialble, but here is the straught text sans embeds:

JJB

Well, this is certainly interesting. Alexander Cockburn is publishing an article by Doug Valentine in the Counterpunch newsletter that claims John McCain was a collaborator during his incarceration in North Vietnam. There is a short excerpt available online:

McCain had a unique POW experience. Initially, he was taken to the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison camp, where he was interrogated. By McCain’s own account, after three or four days he cracked. He promised his Vietnamese captors, “I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital …

His Vietnamese captors soon realized their POW, John Sidney McCain III, came from a well-bred line in the American military elite. . .The Vietnamese realized, this poor stooge has propaganda value. The admiral’s boy was used to special treatment, and his captors knew that. They were working him.

. . .two weeks into his stay at the Vietnamese hospital, the Hanoi press began quoting him. It was not ‘name rank and serial number, or kill me’. as specified by the military code of conduct. McCain divulged specific military information: he gave the name of the aircraft carrier on which he was based, the number of U.S. pilots that had been lost, the number of aircraft in his flight formation, as well as information about the location of rescue ships.

Somehow, I don’t think he’ll be asked about this by Russert Potato Head on Press the Meet, or by Tweety Blueballs.

From Feel the love…,

*****************************

Sorry for the delay!

20. marisacat - 20 April 2008

18

Mary Quant make-up too.

21. diane - 20 April 2008

16

Do you have any pics of the Groper and Mahoney?

Through a family member who had converted to Catholicism, I’ve heard much talk of priests holding the upper echelon of “The Church” in moral contempt, in addition to a likely going underground of those not on board at all with the flag wrapping……..

22. marisacat - 20 April 2008

Black Commentator weighs in with their punch before the vote… (I’d say watch Drudge tonight).

But for the email list I would have missed it, they normally publish on Thursday.

23. marisacat - 20 April 2008

21

I’ve never image googled Arnold, much less the two of them…

But that reminds me I caught Bloomberg and Arnold on for the hour with Chalrie Rose last week. Gritted my teeth thru the whole thing. Both were lying through THEIR teeth.

24. marisacat - 20 April 2008

oh honey… don’t do it, but he did:

“You have a real choice in this election. Either Democrat would be better than John McCain – and all three of us would be better than George Bush,” Mr. Obama said. “But what you have to ask yourself is, who has the chance to actually, really change things in a fundamental way?”

25. diane - 20 April 2008

23

I suppose I should watch tv to stay more abreast, but it literally causes a physical reaction more subtle, yet worse, than nausea, ever since I watched Peter Jennings (on March 17th? 2003) state that 70% of the US was on board with bombing Iraq…..and I refuse to pay Comcast for cable, since they’ve effectively pretty much blocked most channels of any worth on non-cable tv, just like they so effectively and lawlessly block internet connections for their paying customers with their “re-set packets”….

I still wonder why there’s been no expose (that I’ve seen) on the subliminal advertising which must be going on like never before. If it was as successful as it was in the sixties, to sell popcorn and soft drinks at movie theaters, I don’t even want to know what’s going on now, especially at networks like Fox.

26. marisacat - 20 April 2008

25

I have the original of the little book that came out on subliminal advertising… with the photos.

I will hunt for it, somewhere in the house.

27. diane - 20 April 2008

26

A title would be wonderful Marisa!

thanks

28. diane - 20 April 2008

How’s the job search (or not) going cad?

Hope all is well whatever the case.

29. diane - 20 April 2008

googling about re subliminal advertising, I’m seeing that the soft drinks and popcorn were supposedly debunked…

I would never be so stupid to refute that humans are largely effected by repeat messages, especially if that’s all they’re hearing…no one wants to think they are the only one who see’s things a certain way…..no one has that kind of confidence that I’ve ever met…

30. diane - 20 April 2008

If I see, or smell, a plate of appetizing food, it certainly does increase my appetite

If I hear someone seemingly (could be lies) argue well for a stance I’m veering towards, it certainly does give me more confidence in my own stand…….

31. diane - 20 April 2008

If my brain associates violence with a particular sight, smell, or sound (which is what mammals do), the likelihood is, that that will be a recurring reaction.

32. diane - 20 April 2008

…and wild mammals have far more acute senses than humans, i.e. what’s subliminal to humans (yet cognizable (had to look the focker up in the dictionary, so rarely use it) by the brain) is likely not so for mammals.

(the comment this relates to, may be caught in spam)

33. diane - 20 April 2008

….and how could I forget taste, or touch……..

I’m overwhelmed……….

34. diane - 20 April 2008

…..thank you Marisa for so very kindly allowing me to speak….in my limited reading of the Bible…I’ve read that “church” is wherever two or more of you are gathered in my name (therefore, not a physical structure),…presumeably spoken by Jesus. I, in my limited readings, took it that Jesus died preaching Love for one another…most especially, the downtrodden….I’ve taken your website to be a church of sorts……..

35. Miss Devore - 20 April 2008

21. I do recall that when Mahoney (of chicago) was accused, that the gay & lesbian community in chicago supported him. The accuser later recanted.

If that was the Mahoney you were talking about.

20. white lipstick to match the cap. or Yardley’s “slickers” (I got a set of 12 for xmas one year and Eau de London)

36. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

two or more of you are gathered in my name

Where is that from?

37. Miss Devore - 20 April 2008

36. Peter Paul & Mary….rather than Jesus Mary & Joseph:

Peter Paul And Mary – The Wedding Song (There Is Love) Lyrics

He is now to be among you
At the calling of your hearts
Rest assured this Trubador is acting on His part

Well, the union of your spirits here has caused Him to remain
For whenever two or more you are gathered in His name
There is love
There is love

Well, a man shall leave his mother
And a woman leave her home
And they shall travel on to where the two shall be as one
As it was in the begining
It is now until the end
Woman draws her life from man
Then gives it back again
There is love
There is love

Well then what’s to be the reason
For becoming man and wife?
Is it love that brings you here
Or love that brings you life?

Oh, if loving is the answer
Then who’s the Giving Force?
Do you belive in something
That you’ve never seen before?
There is love
There is love

Hmmm mmm mmm mmm
mmm mmm

Oh, the marriage of your spirits her has caused Him to remain
For whenever two or more of you are gathered in His name
There is love
There is love

38. diane - 20 April 2008

35

Sorry, misspelled Mahony – Cali

Not familiar with the Chicago Mahoney issue although I hadn’t known that the gay lesbian community had become beyond possibly being wrong about whatever that issue was? – just like Begin, though in a concentration camp, should never have been beyond questioning about bombing the fuck out of Lebanon.

i.e just because the gay lesbian community is on board, I’m not going to jump on too.

39. Intermittent Bystander - 20 April 2008

That skullcap photo is a gas! The light exposure on Benny’s snowy hair – and that tee hee! expression on the papal face – make it look like he may have several more skullcaps stacked, Russian-doll-style, still to go. A little April Fool’s prank on Gorgeous George.

You just don’t get to be Pope, without loving the hats.

Here’s his ball cap for Yankee Stadium today. Wonder what Bronx-related symbolism the liturgical restorers in CT have embedded – subliminally or not – in all of that? It was definitely another petticoat occasion, that’s for sure.

40. Heather-Rose Ryan - 20 April 2008

Riffing on Tom Lehrer’s Vatican Rag:

“you can wear all the hats you want if
you are chosen as the Pontiff”

41. diane - 20 April 2008

36

Matthew 18:20:

For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

42. cad - 20 April 2008

A friend in my LA neighborhood, a sweet gentle soul, owner of a local theater, pulled his car over to avoid what looked to him a closed street with many police cars. The sheriffs came over, pulled him from the car and when he told them what he was doing they threw him to ground, threatened him with death, cuffed him and took him to hospital for forced blood tests and then to jail, where he spent the next day. He was charged with interfering with an officer. It will all be on camera as it happened at the intersection. Attorneys will be talking It’s outrageous. I’m fuming.

Frank Rich wrote a good piece on the ABC travesty of a sham:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/opinion/20rich.html?ref=opinion

43. Intermittent Bystander - 20 April 2008

35 – Imagine the Yankee faithful’s batter-up surprise!

44. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So much for all those ascetics who lived for 20 years alone in the desert.

45. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

“you can wear all the hats you want if
you are chosen as the Pontiff”

JP II was macho enough to pull off the Papal wardrobe without looking too creepy.

Ratzo is a one man freak show.

46. Intermittent Bystander - 20 April 2008

The sheriffs came over, pulled him from the car and when he told them what he was doing they threw him to ground, threatened him with death, cuffed him and took him to hospital for forced blood tests and then to jail, where he spent the next day.

Yikes! What were all the cop cars doing there in the first place?

47. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

Godot will shortly be making an appearance to announce that the fucking Pennsylvania primary is finally, finally here.

48. diane - 20 April 2008

34

I just stated what I felt in my heart Hair Club, I don’t find the necessity to rip apart and dissect what gives you comfort when you post a comment, even if I wholeheartedly disagree….why do you feel my post is open game? If you didn’t feel some kind of consensus would you feel so brazen, or would you perhaps be a little less dismissive? If you saw hurt in my eyes…would you pause?

……..

49. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

I just stated what I felt in my heart Hair Club, I don’t find the necessity to rip apart and dissect what gives you comfort when you post a comment, even if I wholeheartedly disagree….why do you feel my post is open game?

How was I “ripping it apart?”

I was commenting on the idea that you need two or more people to communicate with “god” when I’ve always seen Christians as seeing your relationship to god as “personal,” as between your conscience and whatever eternal being you’ve imagined for yourself.

Can you not discuss religious ideas without walking on eggshells and worrying about offending people?

50. Miss Devore - 20 April 2008

on second thought, I confused Mahoney (LA) with Bernadin in Chicago.

All Cardinals look alike to me.

51. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

Priest tells off Faux news “reporter”. Does a pretty good job of it.

It’s actually pretty obvious what the Fox Reporter is trying to do. He’s asking the same question over and over again hoping to get the soundbyte he wants.

If Pfleger gives him that incriminating soundbyte, it goes on the air. If he doesn’t, they run with something else. There’s no spirt of inquiry in that interview, no desire to learn about anything, no real questions.

Plus, that interviewer has the most annoying voice imaginable. That’s probably why they send him. Just hearing him speak makes you want to haul off and punch him in the mouth. It’s like fingernails on the blackboard.

52. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

diane,

Nor sure if this is the book you’re talking about but I have my old copy around here in a box: Subliminla Seduction

I have no doubt the shady techniques (psyops) are still being used along with others that I learned about when I was studying communications and media analysis techniques at university.

53. Heather-Rose Ryan - 20 April 2008

Diane, you seem to be stuck on the idea of “consensus”. One of the aspects of MCat’s place which I admire is the idea that there is no “groupthink” here and no party line. There is no bullshit about “community” being used to try to intimidate people into shutting up. Everyone is free to speak their minds and state their views without being deemed an outcast or an apostate.

54. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

Ooops…that should have been “Subliminal”.

55. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

Everyone is free to speak their minds and state their views without being deemed an outcast or an apostate.

I’m actually baffled at why that comment caused offense. The passage from Matthew is a bit confusing.

1.) You need two or three people to be in the presence of Jesus. This is quite frankly a horrifying idea. Do you mean that someone chained up in some torture cell alone can’t be in the presence of Jesus if that’s his religion?

2.) Jesus someone automatically is present when two or three Christians get together. I guess this is the more likely meaning of the passage. But what if one Christian is accusing another of heresey or is being dishonest?

56. vox humana - 20 April 2008

1) No, where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst. Individuals are in the presence at all times and may commune in that way. The idea is that there is a special power to a gathering of people that can test individual perceived revelations.

2) The very point (or one of the very points) of the passage. There may not be unity or consensus, but the struggle toward truth will be illuminated by the presence of the divine.

Other interpretations, or lack thereof, are of course possible.

57. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

HcfM,

I think reading the context of that passage might help.

58. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

I feel like the Church Lady.

59. marisacat - 20 April 2008

well I think on this trip the operative number is FIVE. Ratzinger met with 5 abuse victims… ones that others say are very much not the trouble makers.

And now the word is, as the 5 keep speaking (and lecturing from their specially beloved spot), ”move on”. And as Ratzy said, work with your bishops.

LOL As usual the Catholic Church, this time the dict issued by that breathy little Nazy Ratzy voice, wants the problem to go away.

What a bunch.

Well apparently one of the people Ratzy emulates in dress is Leo X, anything to go backward. Another is Pius IX, from what I have read.

60. Miss Devore - 20 April 2008

giving up on the weather that won’t let me take a dip in the pool today, I decided on a hot bath instead. Epsom salts, rosewater, orange blossom water. Went in preparing to do my bugs bunny “ooh ooh ooh ooh..ahhhh. but it was too hot.

53. for the most part. but you will be shunned/disparaged by many if you say you will vote for Obama. see catnip 44 of last post here. There is a leaning here, I think that would be fair to say. Which I appreciate though don’t lean as far as others.

Onto the bath now, with a cucumber facial chaser.

61. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

for the most part. but you will be shunned/disparaged by many if you say you will vote for Obama.

Yeah, there’s a bit of an anti-Obama bias here that goes beyond just rejecting all three corporate mainstream candidates.

I suspect it has something to do with the Daily Kos being monolithically pro-Obama.

62. Intermittent Bystander - 20 April 2008

From Madman’s piece at Liberal Street Fighter (linked at #2 above):

The old fraud, and others like him on the Protestant Christian right, like to insist that relativism means that anything goes, that any system of values, or no values, is as good as any other. Of course, there is no acknowledgement of the arrogance inherent in the idea that the believer/preacher/minister is able to discern “truth” where others can’t, that imperfect human beings would even know it if Truth sat on their face and wiggled around.

Relativism, in real practice, is the idea that robust debate, the conflict of ideas, is the path toward finding BETTER solutions to our problems, BETTER ways of living our lives. It is the recognition that Truth is a boundary we can not reach, but rather a horizon that we can try to approach, and if we reject other points of view, other beliefs, we might miss a critical insight, a new solution that our own limited beliefs and experiences blinded us to.

Of course, such a society would make it a little harder to fleece the sheep, to keep the collection plates full, to provide fresh-faced altar boys and girls to diddle, to lie into evil wars and unsustainable exploitation of our world and of each other. Debate, discussion, interaction with the other must be quashed, stamped down, kept at bay, which is what Bush and Ratzinger have in common. It’s the motivation for so much of how our society runs, and thus its expression on a playing field for a children’s game played by adults and paid for by taxpayers is the perfect place for the Pope to sell his wares.

63. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

Of course, there is no acknowledgement of the arrogance inherent in the idea that the believer/preacher/minister is able to discern “truth” where others can’t

In Ratzo’s case wouldn’t that be the Catholic idea that religious truth is embodied more in the church hierarchy and the organic historical growth of Catholicism than in the ability of one person to read and interpret the Bible for him/her self.

I mean, the Vactican used to have people burned at the stake for translating the Bible, right?

64. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

Yeah, there’s a bit of an anti-Obama bias here that goes beyond just rejecting all three corporate mainstream candidates.

They’re all worthy of disdain but when one promises a “new” style of politics and delivers the same old crap, I’d say that makes him the most open for criticism.

As for kossacks and other rabid O supporters, I’m more than tired of them claiming they’re investing in the “new” politics too when some of them have become fanatical. I detest that In Bush’s fundies and the same goes for those types.

65. Heather-Rose Ryan - 20 April 2008

59 – well, I said a while back that I would probably vote for Obama, and many months ago I had said I liked Edwards. I know MCat doesn’t agree but that’s OK. I don’t feel uncomfortable stating these views but then again I don’t demand that everyone agrees with me. On most subjects, anyway ;-)

66. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

I’ll simplify my last answer: in politics, it’s the hypocrisy that I rail against. I don’t care which party or non-party it’s coming from.

67. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

They’re all worthy of disdain but when one promises a “new” style of politics and delivers the same old crap, I’d say that makes him the most open for criticism.

Isn’t that what every politician does? I’m a Democrat/Republican with a difference!!!

This time around it’s just identity politics that’s supposed to make all the difference.

It might have mean something before the head of state in Chile, Argentina or Germany was a woman. And before Pelosi.

As for a black president of the USA, well, that would be something of a historic step.

For about 5 minutes.

Then at 5 minutes one second the black head of state would commence screwing us over exactly the way Colin Powell did in front of the UN.

68. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

64. It would be nice if Edwards got his wish and saw a Dem in the WH who’s actually going to do something real about poverty. I’m not quite sure what else needs to happen in society before that becomes a reality. There are already so many horror stories.

69. Intermittent Bystander - 20 April 2008

I don’t feel uncomfortable stating these views but then again I don’t demand that everyone agrees with me.

Pretty good working method, I’ve always found.

On most subjects, anyway.

Yeah, your pro-duck position is insufferable!

70. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

well, I said a while back that I would probably vote for Obama, and many months ago I had said I liked Edwards.

There was a slim chance I may have voted for Obama back in the Spring. But the last few weeks have been so tedious I doubt I’ll vote for either major party.

I realize that this is precisely the effect Hillary wants now and McCain wants in the fall, to suppress the vote, that I’m playing into their hands.

But it also makes me realize I don’t think enough of Obama to dissappoint either.

71. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

Isn’t that what every politician does?

Sure, but Obama’s made himself the biggest target in this race by promising the most change.

The touchiness involved with the identity politics of this race sure isn’t going to end if Obama or Clinton wins. The racism and sexism will continue to be rampant, sadly.

As for who wins, I agree with you: it doesn’t really matter. The status quo is what always wins.

72. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

Yeah, your pro-duck position is insufferable!

Jeebus said you have to be nice to the duck people…or was it the duct tape people? I can’t remember…

73. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

Sure, but Obama’s made himself the biggest target in this race by promising the most change

Actually he hasn’t promised very much. He’s been very successful at creating the image that he’s the “change” candidate while simultaneously running to the center right.

Well, perhaps the center right is “change” from the out of the closet fascism we’ve had under Bush. But, once again, not enough to vote for it.

Because my giving up my own perspective to lower my expectations and hope for a moderate Republican in 2008 let’s the whole damn system lurch to the right, bringing the left, right, and center all that much closer to out and out fascism.

74. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

You know, that linked article is a bit simplistic.

The Nazis had long terms plans to eliminate Christianity in Germany but also found that the Catholic church was so entrenched that they had to come to terms with it.

This, of course, reflects badly on the Catholic church, which obviously had a lot more power to throw a monkey wrench in the fascist system then they used. But of course the Catholic church was the main supporter of Franco in Spain and while Hitler was anti-Catholic, the church probably saw communism as its bigger enemy.

And I found this quote a bit odd

One must not forget that Germany represented the most Christianized country in the world in the 1930s and 40s.

More than Poland? More than Spain? More than Ireland? It could be true but it’s the first time I’ve heard it.

75. marisacat - 20 April 2008

well Hillary has been on my barbeque for years. About 14. or 15.

II left mediagirl in Feb of 2006 as the theme was “don’t be mean to Hillary”, bullshit.

i am really sorry to disppoint I follow links to Dkos but I don’t read it otherwise. People like to disbelieve that, FINE.

And I hardly shed a tear as a small list serv I was on dried up and blew away some months after it appeared to have someone so pro HIllary (and in support of the Dems caving to religionist and Republicans over abortion) that she (dblehelix) might as well have been paid.

you devore hide behind and use your support of Obama to attack me personally when ti suits you. Before that you used other things. You are just desperate for excuses, imo.

Just the latest:

Miss Devore |

44. my remarks on the “exotic left” did not imply that you supported Clinton. only that you thought you were above it all. and can only find amusement about the process.

I’m 75% there with you. the other 25% makes me think it is important.

Mitm is an investment banker and you own your parcel in SF–pretty dandy these days. You prayed in France to a boutique saint. Your mother smoked with far more class than pyhrro.

I understand your appeal. An unquestioned bitch-goddess. Classier than MSOC. Hell, I fell for it.

Mar 9, 3:34 PM —

Anyone cares to look at the thread preceeding your attack they will see you could not handle argument. Political argument.. About Obama.

Often with your displays I am reminded of a comment Pacino made about Pauline Kael (I have loved both of them and their work but life is life) after someone quoted to him a particular slash and burn comment of hers about his work,

Did she say that before or after she swallowed the shot glass.

A few months ago I shut this blog after you and some confessed mental patient slammed at me. I did it to rest and to avoid saying in public what I think of your begs for attention.

I am done here for a while. I will leave the thread open. You can whine and moan to your heart’s content.. I am out of any remnant of patence with childishness.

76. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

remarks on the “exotic left” did not imply that you supported Clinton

Having been around the same tedious bend with “Donkeytale” on PFF it’s clear that the only argument he has *for me to vote for Obama* is to insult the left, to level personal attacks on me as being ineffective (a charge I of course agree with but which isn’t an argument for voting for Obama) or as an outmoded dogmatic leftist (which has a grain of truth but still isn’t a reason to vote for Obama).

It’s just not going to happen after watching the debacle of the post 2006 congress. Am I racist because I won’t vote for Obama or anti-semitic because I won’t support Israel or misogynist because I won’t vote for Hillary. It’s possible I’m a little of all of them.

But it’s still not a good reason to vote for Obama.

I just don’t see one, even though I don’t quite dislike him personally.

77. Intermittent Bystander - 20 April 2008

BTW catnip – from the last thread – I admit that it was sometimes inconvenient not to have the detailed Bible knowledge that Christian religious instruction provides, but as soon as I could read, I was free to investigate whatever, on my own. Looking things up – and knowing that you’ll never have all the answers, all the background, even when you do – ain’t a bad lesson for life overall.

Plus, it’s amazing how many clues are out there, for the taking. I picked up a few of the basic New Testament plot lines from an illustrated Bible Stories for Children book at the dentist’s office, way way early on. Enough to confirm that the Greek pantheon held more diverse dramatic appeal . . . for one thing, girls appeared to have a sporting chance as major players.

78. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

Actually he hasn’t promised very much.

Hi “blank screen” changeyhopeiness message has worked so people overlook that. My reflection on his “promises” was about him stating that he’s “going to change the way things are done” (the stylistic image).

He’s been very successful at creating the image that he’s the “change” candidate while simultaneously running to the center right.

Exactly.

79. Miss Devore - 20 April 2008

74. hard to believe, but I liked Obama even before I posted here. before he was running for prez.

would any of us blog without desire for attention, in some way?

deal: I’ll stop posting here so as not to annoy you. you won’t have to shut anything down.

au revoir

80. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

hard to believe, but I liked Obama even before I posted here. before he was running for prez.

I remember exactly the first time I had ever heard of him, in the New Yorker puff piece in the Spring of 2004. Then of course I heard him speak at the Democratic convention.

I have to confess I neither like nor dislike him (which may actually amount to liking him since I so actively dislike most politicians).

But I just can’t vote for him if he doesn’t talk about impeachment or the funding of the war. Anything that doesn’t address these issues head on is just fraud.

I just can’t see how anybody could vote for someone who’s willing to do what Clinton did in the early 90s and let the war criminals in the current Bush administration off the hook.

It’s like watching the theater burn down without shouting fire.

81. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

76. an illustrated Bible Stories for Children book at the dentist’s office

Those books are absolutely everywhere! I preferred checking out the Dingbats calenders (scroll down). (My dad was a dentist – an alcoholic dentist, mind you – so we never exactly basked in any riches. Au contraire).

I was free to investigate whatever, on my own.

That’s the way I thought it ought to be for my daughter. I can’t even begin to tell you how many faux stomach aches I had on Sunday mornings so I could avoid those scary Latin high masses.

82. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

the Greek pantheon held more diverse dramatic appeal . . . for one thing, girls appeared to have a sporting chance as major players.

Bingo. Having gone to Catholic school, however, education of that subject was completely missing. But I grew up during the feminist movement and lived next door to a United Church deaconess for a while so it didn’t take me long to figure out that Catholic women were relegated to the back seats – a huge factor in my leaving the church as a teen.

83. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

the Greek pantheon held more diverse dramatic appeal

Even the ancient Hebrews in the Old Testament thought paganism had more appeal.

What exactly was it about Baal that made them keep going back even though it mean an almost certain smiting?

Temple prostitutes? Partying? Human sacrifice?

Had to be something.

84. moiv - 20 April 2008

79

Well, catnip, I must allow that the Dingbat calendars do look like a lot more fun than the mahogany, brass and ivory enema box.

85. moiv - 20 April 2008

But not half as much fun as that best-seller of 1918, the Prostate Gland Warmer — complete with a 9-ft. electrical cord and flash bulbs. ;-)

The mind just boggles, don’t it?

86. Madman in the Marketplace - 20 April 2008

Yeah, there’s a bit of an anti-Obama bias here that goes beyond just rejecting all three corporate mainstream candidates.

Well, I hate all three of them, but McCain and Clinton have been so awful for so long it’s really not much fun, and far too easy, to take shots at them. I do have a penchant for really hating snake oil salesmen, which Obama reveals himself to be more and more. The constant need to pander to angry, armed, prejudiced white men infuriates me.

I’m glad you liked the excerpt, IB.

87. Hair Club for Men - 20 April 2008

McCain and Clinton have been so awful for so long it’s really not much fun, and far too easy, to take shots at them.

But the new stuff coming out that McCain collaborated with the North Vietnamese looks like fun.

http://counterpunch.org/cockburn04192008.html

Of course what exactly does it mean that McCain collaborated with the North Vietnamese. The North Vietnamese were the good guys.

It would have been a bit like a captured Nazi soldier collaborating with the British in 1940.

88. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

83. Well, men apparently need to have their “abdominal brains” stimulated. :)

Here’s a more colourful pic of the dingbats.

89. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

the mahogany, brass and ivory enema box.

For the “elitists”, no doubt. (They have fancy-schmancy butts.)

90. liberalcatnip - 20 April 2008

The Independent’s main story is about ‘The great (bird) migration crisis’.

91. Intermittent Bystander - 20 April 2008

82 – That item stopped me mid-scroll, too!

The Dingbats do have a slightly Bosch-ian style, don’t they? Art history, as well as literature, were helpful windows through which to peer at the various religions.

What exactly was it about Baal

Damned if I know. But surely systems that relate to (and even, dog forbid, rejoice in) the natural, physical world, including the (sometimes tempestuous) balance of multiple forces at play, might be way ahead of the game, for inherent appeal and empirical reinforcement. In my curious childhood readings, the concept of the Tao pretty much wiped the floor with the notion of One (male, but somehow sex-free) Daddy God Over All.

BTW, HC – don’t miss vox humana’s comment at #56.

92. Intermittent Bystander - 20 April 2008

82 – That item stopped me mid-scroll, too!

The Dingbats do have a slightly Bosch-ian style, don’t they? Art history, as well as literature, were helpful windows through which to peer at the various religions.

What exactly was it about Baal

Damned if I know. But surely systems that relate to (and even, dog forbid, rejoice in) the natural, physical world, including the (sometimes tempestuous) balance of multiple forces at play, might be way ahead of the game, for inherent appeal and empirical reinforcement. In my curious childhood readings, the concept of the Tao pretty much wiped the floor with the notion of One (male, but somehow sex-free) Daddy God Over All.

BTW, HC – don’t miss vox humana’s comment at #56.

93. Intermittent Bystander - 20 April 2008

WordPress is chewing me up, so I’ll say goodnight. Take care, everybody.

94. melvin - 20 April 2008

87 — That one is on the Europe-Africa migration pathway, but the same thing is happening elsewhere.

Australia, for instance. And here too. The red knot case is the most famous as right now New Jersey is again wrestling with coping measures, but even that would do nothing about local conditions in South America.

On a related note, Norway is seriously considering an abrupt halt to all fishing of wild salmon, because of low numbers.

95. diane - 20 April 2008

44

Hair Club, you’re right, I over reacted, perhaps I was waiting for an onslaught of tomatoes and implications … from a not small amount of poster’s who’ve had hideous experience with “religious institutions”, their “leaders” and the groups that support them.

I’m sorry.

About the concept of two or more, it’s as regards a church, it doesn’t at all negate a lone one on one communication. I think vox humana (comment 56) stated it far better than I could, and to me that is the essence of a church.

****************************
52

Thanks much for that link catnip!

****************************
53

Diane, you seem to be stuck on the idea of “consensus”.

Stuck on it? I pointed out an obvious realty, so many posters here have had so many bad experiences with Religion/Religious Leaders/Religious Groups, that there is in fact somewhat of an implied majority consensus about there being more negative than positive aspects of “Religion.”

No one needs to agree with me here, on any subject, and I’m hard put to think of any posts I’ve made here or debates I’ve had that imply that. I will acknowledge that consenus is, and always will be, a more validating and therefore more comfortable experience for me than opposition on subjects that I really take to heart and spend a great deal of time thinking about, I believe I’m not alone in that, most especially in the twilight zone times we’re living in now..

96. marisacat - 20 April 2008

new thread

LINK

If there is anything floating in Moderation or Spam will let it out.

97. marisacat - 20 April 2008

4 out of moderation,

2 from Iintermitten Bystander and

2 from HC

98. diane - 20 April 2008

87

Really sad, I think I want to call it quits the day there are no more songbirds. The migratory issues of many of the smaller songbirds are really frightening in light of some of the natural obstacles they face with regard to some of the larger, more citified birds. There’s a picture of a five layered warbler nest, in in old National Geo songbird book I have, where a Cowbird repeatedly layed eggs each time the warbler covered the eggs up with a new layer.

99. diane - 20 April 2008

97

Ah well the link leads to the site, bu not the article for some reason. The name of the article is ‘Mafia’ Behavior In Cowbirds? Study First To Document Evidence dated March 7, 2007.

“….

“We wanted to determine if the cowbirds were responsible for nest predation after we removed cowbird eggs from parasitized warbler nests,” Hoover said. To test for this, Hoover collaborated with Scott Robinson, Florida Museum Ordway eminent scholar and natural history chair, to manipulate cowbird access to warbler nests in the Cache River watershed of southern Illinois. The researchers monitored 182 predator-proofed nests over four breeding seasons.

Hoover and Robinson found that warbler nests were ransacked 56 percent of the time when researchers experimentally removed the parasitic eggs and cowbirds were allowed nest access, versus only 6 percent when the cowbird eggs were accepted and cowbirds had nest access. No nests were ransacked when researchers removed cowbird eggs and cowbirds were denied nest access. Together, these results implicate cowbirds and provide evidence of mafia behavior.

“We also found evidence for ‘farming’ behavior,” Hoover said. “Cowbirds ‘farm’ a non-parasitized nest by destroying its contents so that the host will build another. The cowbird then syncs its egg laying with the hosts’ ‘renest’ attempt.”

….”

100. Jonesy - 23 April 2008

Franz von Papen? My spine shudders with chills.


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