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Silly season……….. 21 May 2008

Posted by marisacat in Inconvenient Voice of the Voter.
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it’s oozing out all over the place… ;)

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1. Madman in the Marketplace - 21 May 2008

too bad there aren’t any pics of brightly-colored poodles turning their teeth on each other … it would fit even better.

2. lucid - 21 May 2008

and Reagan never met with Khomeini.

Right… he only armed Khomeini in exchange for holding the hostages until after the election.

3. Madman in the Marketplace - 21 May 2008

An ex-Jack Sparrow spills on life at the Magic Kingdom

Disney warned us we were going to have a lot of horny women coming on to us. They were also worried about girls. I heard Disneyland had an Esmeralda from The Hunchback of Notre Dame. She was very flirtatious, and they finally pulled her because men found her too sexually arousing and were acting out.

The male character they had pulled was Tarzan. He moved around the tree house dressed in just a butt flap. Disney had hired these good-looking, muscular guys—even airbrushing abs on—and apparently there was excessive pinching of Tarzan’s ass by the park’s female visitors. Knowing all this, and also knowing what women were like around Jack at the Renaissance Faire, I told the other guys, “Don’t complain if girls flirt with you too much. If you do, they’ll pull the character from the park.”

Disney wanted us to tone Jack down, so they put us through an acting class to discover reasons why Jack walks and talks the way he does. Obviously he is based on Keith Richards, who’s always messed up, which is why they came up with the class. “Don’t be flirtatious,” they told us. “See women as trouble.” And they said as far as alcohol goes, don’t even mention drinking. But the Pirates of the Caribbean song is all about drinking, and they’re drinking all along the ride. So I eventually broke that rule, because it would have taken me out of character. When parents took pictures, I’d say, “Everyone say ‘rum,’ ” and the parents loved it. The kids would just ask, “What’s rum?”

4. Madman in the Marketplace - 21 May 2008

2 – IIRC, Oliver North DID meet w/ high-ranking members of that gov’t.

5. marisacat - 21 May 2008

Meanwhile the Obama/Obama camp walk back, a terse cable and print battle over “preconditions” vs “preparations” … is pretty silly. Inject a flag pin. Save the Whirled. From the eager YouTube debate statement forward, the Righties have a ad for the Fall.

And so on.

May they all congeal.

6. liberalcatnip - 21 May 2008

What does that even mean? “Preparations”? Yet, he gets away with it.

7. liberalcatnip - 21 May 2008

If I would have waited a couple of days, I would have heard of Concord, Mass., which is trying to secede from the US on Boston Legal tonite. ;)

8. liberalcatnip - 21 May 2008

Obama arrives in Florida hoping to win over Hispanics and Jews

After being clobbered by Mrs Clinton in Kentucky on Tuesday but having beaten her in Oregon, Mr Obama has now amassed a majority of all delegates pledged during the state-by-state primary process. It is with Mr McCain and November in mind, therefore, that he has come to Florida. Yet he faces enormous challenges here, not least anger that he should have agreed to boycott Florida’s primary. “Welcome to Tampa Bay,” the St Petersburg Times newspaper told the Illinois senator yesterday. “We wish you would have shown up months ago to ask for our votes instead of just our campaign contributions.”

Ooo…ouch.

9. marisacat - 21 May 2008

LOL Good one

10. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

My latest: This Week in Gitmo & Torture.

You get a mention, mcat, and thanks to whoever it was (Mitm?) who linked to the story of the former German prisoner’s story.

11. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

9. “Win by losing” seems to be the Dems’ motto. Even when they do actually win, they manage to turn it into a loss by acting like losers. Yup. Quite the trick, as he wrote.

12. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

Heavyweight investors join Rockefeller rebellion at ExxonMobil. I don’t know the ins and outs of what that might accomplish but I do know that Simon (VP) from Exxon came off as an absolute fool during the last 2 hearings I watched when the oil honchos testified in committee. It seems Exxon has taken this wait & see approach to dealing with alternative fuels etc that puts it far behind the other companies and that Simon doesn’t really give a damn. He reminds me of a guy still stuck in the 1950s.

Here are some snippets of Simon’s April testimony via Amy Goodman.

13. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

The candidates contributions from oil companies with Exxon in the lead for Hillary and Obama.

14. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

So, since every vote matters so much to Clinton now, I’m looking for her to sponser a bill to institute IRV and a reformation of the Electoral College.

Right?

Have a good day everybody.

15. Heather-Rose Ryan - 22 May 2008

Hey MCat, thanks for the shoutout in the other thread. I read the Webb thing at The Nation. This is what I posted in response:

Jim Webb is a liar.

“I never had a problem with those who properly opposed the war”

That is a flat-out lie. If people like van den Heuvel and the so-called journalists at this book-plugging party had done their homework and read the articles on Jim Webb’s own website, http://www.jameswebb.com, they would have been able to confront him on this lie.

Take for example, this 1997 article that he wrote for (ahem) the American Enterprise Institute:

http://www.jameswebb.com/articles/variouspubs/aeiprotestorswant.htm

The title is “Peace? Defeat? What Did The Vietnam War Protestors Want?” The title says it all (just like the title of his earlier article, “Women Can’t Fight”, which described his attitude toward women in the military). Let’s look at a couple of quotes:

“It is difficult to explain to my children that in my teens and early twenties the most frequently heard voices of my peers were trying to destroy the foundations of American society, so that it might be rebuilt according to their own narcissistic notions. In retrospect it’s hard even for some of us who went through those times to understand how highly educated people—most of them spawned from the comforts of the upper-middle class—could have seriously advanced the destructive ideas that were in the air during the late ’60s and early ’70s. ”

And this one:

“at a time when a quiet but relentless battle is taking place over how history will remember our country’s involvement in Vietnam, those who ridiculed government policy, avoided military service, and actively supported an enemy who turned out to be vicious and corrupt do not want to be remembered as having been so naive and so wrong.”

Hmm, yeah, Vietnam protesters were all Communist sympathizers trying to destroy the foundations of our society. But Jim Webb had no problem with them.

What a blowhard creep that guy is. And he has a lovely young little Vietnamese wife who keeps him calm. If this were a Hollywood satire I doubt the gender stereotypes would be more blatant.

16. JJB - 22 May 2008

lucid, no. 2,

Kennedy certainly did meet face to face with Khruschev, who was a far greater threat to US interests and security than either Castro or Khomeini. Nixon traveled all the way to China to meet with Mao, with whom we had a far more poisonous relationship than with either the Islamic Republic of Iran or Cuba. And while Kennedy never met with Castro, Nixon did, in the spring of 1959 when Fidel showed up in DC on a surprise visit (the session did not go well, and Castro left badly shaken by just how hostile the US had turned towards him in such a short time after he’d come to power).

Oh, and the Israelis are meeting with the Syrians in serious discussions that the likes of Holy Joe have for years been trying to prevent. Rumor has it they may well strike a deal that returns the Golan Heights to Syria. It seems that both the Israelis and the Alawite/Baathist regime in Damascus are alarmed by just how strong Hezbollah has become, along with the resultant increase in Iranian influence. So they’ve agreed to sit down and talk.

As to Dean Acheson, whatever your opinion of his tenure as top US diplomat, he used American influence to install regimes that were either backed or dominated by gangsters and ex-fascists in Greece, Turkey, Japan, and Italy, and helped funnel hundreds of millions of dollars in wasted aid to Chaing Kai-Shek doomed regime. He also did a great deal to provoke the Korean War by rather pointedly excluding South Korea from the announced US defense perimeter in Asia in late 1949, a blunder every bit as dumb as the first Bush administration’s failure to realize just what Saddam Hussein was threatening just before he invaded Kuwait (sending the US fleet into the straits of Taiwan to protect Chaing’s forces after they fled the mainland was another questionable move that helped ensure Mao’s enmity). His personal manner was arrogant, condescending, and made the Truman administration even more enemies on Capitol Hill than it would have had anyway. BTW, he was also one of those advising John Kennedy to attack Cuba in October 1962.

17. Heather-Rose Ryan - 22 May 2008

my rant in spam….

18. Heather-Rose Ryan - 22 May 2008

I can tell you one thing: if Webb is Obama’s running mate, I’m voting third-party.

19. ms_xeno - 22 May 2008

Oh, Madman. For a person with such highly suspect taste in music, you sure are a barrel of laughs.

:p

In other news, a new day has dawned, beautifully damp and cool, Thank Zod. And it looks like I’m still a racist. Hip Waders, front and center !

Oh, and Mcat, Smithee assures me that his homepage is down for repairs but not forever. Gotta’ go. Those collages won’t glue themselves together, right ?

20. ms_xeno - 22 May 2008

P.S.- Come to the dark side, hrh. We have BBQ.

21. Heather-Rose Ryan - 22 May 2008

#3: wow, if that’s the way women interact with a fake Jack Sparrow, you wonder how things are for Johnny Depp.

#19: sounds pretty good, ms x.

22. marisacat - 22 May 2008

JJB out of moderation

and

Heather-rose out of Spam

Sorry! for the delay!!

8)

23. marisacat - 22 May 2008

15

yeah glad I finally caught up to you.

Webb is a horror ….. the joy is that he is at best a reluctant campaigner. The whole thing is beyond hilarious.

AND whatever shredded torn stained leftischer party card Katrina vdH ever carried got turned in when she wrote that slobber on Webb.

Like so many who “opposed” the invasion of Iraq, they had mixed goals, short and long term, in doing so. Webb is very much a hawk about China. A version that did not buy into Plan Iraq as being very much about China, in terms of geopolitical and securing resources.

NONE of these people oppose war.

24. marisacat - 22 May 2008

BTW, fast moving fires here in Santa Cruz Co (it’s being called The Summit Wildfire, Summit Rd, Mt Madonna, Corralitos), south of SF… no print reports I found are at all up to date… Local channels dumped net work scheduling all morning to cover it. Some amazing aerial shots of moving fire that I have ever seen.

Complicated by strong gusty winds that kicked up a little more than a day ago…

Fire is no joke where ever it hits but in CA it always feels apocalyptic…

25. wu ming - 22 May 2008

especially given the terribly low soil moisture that comes from a spring without rain, those winds will drive that fire pretty hard.

i do not look forward to this summer’s fire season. here’s hoping for some unseasonal summer rains or something.

26. marisacat - 22 May 2008

“If May goes down without an appreciable rain, it will be the driest March April May the the Bay Area has seen”

NBC 11 local weather man. NBC local still dumping network programming.

27. marisacat - 22 May 2008

wu ming…

well I was awake early when there was some coverage.. but stunning stories beginning of people on the moutainside who woke at 7:30 – 8 am or so to find fire very close. All they could do was gather a few things and run. One man saw fire outside his bedroom window…

Local news channels had it before 7 am.

It kicked up roughly between 5 and 6 am… apparently no reverse 911 at all… the gusty winds would have been a signla that any fire was trouble.

28. marisacat - 22 May 2008

No fire insurance available for that area… They are speaking to a man who had a concrete house that burned out. He had surfaced it with half rounds. Wood porch…

29. marisacat - 22 May 2008

LOL McCain denounces AND rejects Hagee.

30. marisacat - 22 May 2008

Jake Tapper has a fuller post on Hagee, background.

31. wu ming - 22 May 2008

i think we’ve only had a tenth or a hundredth of an inch of rain since february. it was extremely dry last night, dewpoint was something like 30 degrees.

why would anyone in a mountainous area in CA not have fire insurance? was it that they wouldn’t offer it because it was too likely?

weather.gov (the NOAA site) says that the wind will keep blowing until friday night. it got up to something like 50 MPH out here, snapped off the stakes of a bunch of new saplings they planted at the mall across the street.

32. marisacat - 22 May 2008

wu ming

apparently no fire insurance offered… and that was the owner of a new construction concrete house — but then as noted he faced it with wood /?/

33. NYCO - 22 May 2008

it’s been crappy cold and rainy here for the past 2 weeks and I no longer look at rain and curse. If I don’t have any outdoor plans for the day, I see rain and say “Good!”

Great Lakes levels are UP this season. Nice to have good news for a change.

34. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

Jake Tapper has a fuller post on Hagee, background.

Most of the Old Testament was written by the Jewish exile community in Babylon in the 6th Century. To be more accurate, a huge body of ancient Hebrew literature was redacted into the Old Testament by a community of priests.

Jeremiah was a prophet who lived (and wrote) around the time that King Nebuchadrezzar (the Hitler of Hagee’s speech) sacked Jerusalem and carried the Davidic royal family and their court to Babylon.

What the priests did in the exile was to rewrite and edit Jeremiah’s writings in order to justify their return to Jerusalem. The book of Jeremiah is not Jeremiah’s writings. It’s a redaction of Jeremiah’s writings.

By this time we’re about 60 years after the sack of Jerusalem by Nebuchadrezzar. So in the exile priestly community’s view, Nebuchadrezzar is the ‘refining fire’ who purged Jerusalem of its pagan community and paved the way for the priests to establish a totalitarian control of the country. No Baal. No More.

What makes Hagee offensive isn’t his idea that a tyrant would destroy (and thin) the Jewish community so that its priests could establish their theocracy. It’s his total disregard for modern Biblical scholarship. But the media’s obviously not going to criticize Hagee for being a fundamentalist.

At the same time, will Hagee’s statements offend a lot of Jews (when a lot of fundamentalist Jews share them, that Hitler was the 20th Century’s Nebuchadrezzar? Who knows).

But it’s not going to win the election for Obama.

35. marisacat - 22 May 2008

I’d be happy to toss the bible overboard, acknowledge it to be a semi historical novel with religious tracts / propaganda incorporated – and with many authors. The End.

36. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

I’d be happy to toss the bible overboard, acknowledge it to be a semi historical novel with religious tracts / propaganda incorporated – and with many authors

It’s worse. It’s the butchery of a literary tradition by a group of priests in order to justify their politics.

But the outrage over Hagee is a bit trumped up. Well, Hagee’s sort of the scapegoat. Lots of Christians and Jews believe exactly what he does.

Sure they’re insane but one’s also in the White House.

McCain’s condemning Hagee LOOKS like a victory for liberalism, for people who pressured McCain to back down.

Bzzzzzzt. It’s a good thing for McCain. It’s a Sistah Souljah moment that every fundi Christian and Jew will wink at.

37. marisacat - 22 May 2008

The bible has never much interested me. Thankfully. Logn ago I used to think if people needed it, well, whatever. I am much less benign the past few years.

38. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

I guess the equivalent would look like this.

Imagine Stalin invaded England, devestated the country, killed a huge percentage of the population and carried the entire educated class off to Moscow for 100 years.

The only people left in England are illiterate peasants.

OK. 100 years later, the Russians have a new dicator. The exiles want him to let him let them go back and rebuild London. So they take Shakespeare, Milton, Chaucer, Shelley, Conrad and combine it into one big anthology. You’ve lost the vast majority of Shakespeare and Milton and only have left what will let the exiles butter up the Russians to give them England back.

So you lose Romeo and Juliet and keep Henry V. The exiles also put in lots of nice stuff about Stalin. He was the instrument of the lord who purged decadent England and purified the land in anticipation for the New England.

Then 2000 years later, some version of Hagee talks about Stalin as the instrument of the Lord and people get pissed.

39. marisacat - 22 May 2008

use it for target practice. I don’t care. Not that long ago the Hagees / that ilk were dismissed as a big congealing fuckball usually referred to, en masse, as Holy Rollers. People who worked themselves into some version of frenzy, spoke in tongues and dropped to the ground in a sort of seizure.

Now we have people who cleave to one or the other, thinking Rick Warren is essentially different from Hagee. Nazi Ratzy controls, he thinks LOL, a billion or so, so some think he is more worthy. Wright sold Obama as a “Black Liberator” from HIS pulpit… just a few months ago.

Congealing fuckball.

40. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

use it for target practice. I don’t care.

I do. If people actually read the Bible and learned biblical criticism, the religious right would be a lot less influential than it is now.

I can usually walk into a crowd of fundamenalist Christians and tie them into knots in a few minutes. Of course they usualy respond just by shutting down and refusing to listen to anything you have to say.

It doesn’t have much to do with the Bible, but the fact that most grow up in exurban and rural communities where there’s an enclosed and self-enclosing worldview. They read the Bible one way. I read it another. The circumstances of our lives make the readings different.

But if most normal secular people learned the Bible, they’d recognize 90% of what these fundamentalists say is bullshit. Some of it’s even a joke on their followers.

Not learning the Bible is a bit like not knowing on 9/10 why US troops were pissing off the Arab world being near Mecca.

41. marisacat - 22 May 2008

Bully for you.

42. bayprairie - 22 May 2008

Only youze guys are cheering on the construction workers who beat up the anti-war protesters on Wall Street. As a burly white ethnic guy with actual relatives in Appalachia, I appreciate the support.

this is one of the most chickenshit comments ive had the displeasure of reading in these threads. nand not a word of truth in it.

43. Heather-Rose Ryan - 22 May 2008

HC – I have news for you. Highly educated people with letter-perfect knowledge of the texts have been interpreting and reinterpreting “Scripture” for thousands of years, and yet there is no end to the contradictions, discrepancies, and schisms in the various faiths.

It has nothing to do with “learning the Bible”. It’s all about politics, power, manipulation, and the flaws in human nature. The fact is that lots of people have a deep desire to follow “Big Daddy” leaders who drag them around by their noses.

44. bayprairie - 22 May 2008

stanley’s evidently got an issue with the women. it really has nothing to do with the bible. hes just here to set everyone straight on

well on everything!

the chickenshit.

45. Heather-Rose Ryan - 22 May 2008

May I also add to my excoriation of Webb that I am thoroughly sick and tired of his “blue collar working-class-hero” act. He’s been sipping the elitists’ chardonnay for a good long time.

46. Arcturus - 22 May 2008

12. Unbought isn’t unoffered. He probably put the extra cash into his Lockheed stock options. Farmers Ins already has a claims unit in the area to assist their customers.

can’t reach friends in Corralitos . . .

47. Arcturus - 22 May 2008

we had the displeasure of witnessing KO slober all over Webb last night. party foam! may they be so blessed

48. marisacat - 22 May 2008

Arcturus…

well if State Farm [should be Farmers Ins] has a group on the ground obviously they sold policies. I was surprised at what the man said, but the way insurance is going lately (coastal comes to mind) I have no idea.

I am in a city, on bedrock, in a pre 1907 house… The only house that retained light for blocks after the ’89.. and again in a subsequent outage two weeks later. I feel I float to some degree

49. marisacat - 22 May 2008

Webb really sets me off. I poured and pawed my way all thru his site… Think I read everything there, and then some.

50. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

I didn’t realize we had Sunday School here – on a Thursday, no less. Are we each getting one of those plastic, glow in the dark, virgin Marys for having to endure that?

51. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008
52. marisacat - 22 May 2008

BTW

I think there was some dismissal of ms xeno’s contention that people would have to move to Cindy’s district (CA 8th, which is the part that Pelosi represents) in order to sign her petition. Much dismissal ensued about that statement, from one corner.

hmmm I was pretty sure that is how petitioning for ballot access or to run works.. but you know me, native Californian, what do I know… LOL

SF Chron
Peace activist Cindy Sheehan wants to snatch House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s congressional seat from her in November, but first she’s going to need the help – and signatures – of 10,198 friends and supporters.

Sheehan was at San Francisco City Hall on Friday to take out papers for her independent run for Congress, but without those signatures from voters in the district, her name won’t show up on the ballot.

“It’s an uphill battle,” said Sheehan, who vowed to run against Pelosi in July after the speaker refused to start impeachment proceedings against President George Bush. “But I’m excited about the signature-gathering process. It’s going to be an opportunity to talk to people about our campaign.”

53. ms_xeno - 22 May 2008

Ugh. Sorry to hear about the fires. Is it just me or have they started really damn early this year ? :(

bayprairie, #42.

Don’t be mean, bayprairie. I read that comment from Brother Stan and reflected fondly on the time that I saw cops pepper spraying kids and old folks at the PDX anti-Bush demo. Who knew that along, I was siding with the cops. Heck, I probably was a cop and didn’t even know it. Thanks to Brother Stan I have seen the light, though. :p

54. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

Why is it that only comedians will call them on their shit directly:

McCain didn’t dance on the Ellen DeGeneres Show, but he did field some tough questions on Ellen’s upcoming marriage to actress Portia de Rossi in a newly legalized California civil ceremony. [..] She told the senator and the audience that she will be soon marrying her longtime girlfriend. She said she was planning on marrying her before the state made it legal and asked McCain what his thoughts are on the same-sex marriage issue.

McCain said, “I think that people should be able to enter into legal agreements and it’s something that we should encourage, particularly in the case of insurance and other areas and decisions that have to be made. I just believe in the unique status of marriage between a man and a woman and I know that we have a respectful disagreement on that issue.”

Ellen responded, “I think that it is looked at and some people are saying the same that blacks and women did not have the right to vote. Women just got the right to vote in 1920. Blacks didn’t have the right to vote until 1870 and it just feels like there’s this old way of thinking that we are not all the same. We are all the same people. All of us. You are no different than I am. Our love is the same. To me, what it feels like, I will just speak for myself, it feels like when someone says, ‘You can still have a contract and you’ll still have insurance and you’ll get all that’ — it sounds like you can sit there, but you can’t sit there. That’s what is sounds like to me.”

55. marisacat - 22 May 2008

They think the jet stream is breaking… some more moist air in the wind from the West, moist and lighter winds.

Earlier they showed dhow fast the smoke carried, 300 miles down the coast and up to SF.

Our air feels drier than it did.

[CA wildfire interruption over, back to regular programming]

56. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

The Bible is a festering noxious poisonous weed fed with the manure of the idea that people are born evil.

And by “Bible” I mean the Torah, the other Jewish texts, the New and Old Testaments (yes, I know, a lot of the same stuff, but a weird different emphasis) and the fucking Koran. Every translation, apologia and scholarly reinterpretation … merely mutations of that evil weed.

Not saying that it isn’t important maybe to read, or that it hasn’t been terribly influential … I’m saying that those are the very reasons why so much of the world is so fucked up. The only original sin is “I am the Alpha and the Omega” …

57. brinn - 22 May 2008

Madman — you rock.

And hi to everyone hope you’re well!

I now have the dubious honor of adding M.Ed. to the M.A. behind my name (yeah, I am a master squared).

LOL!

58. ms_xeno - 22 May 2008

[snerk] Spent a whole semester on Bible Studies first year of college. It was required text in the English curiculum that would have been called my minor in a regular college (as opposed to an art college). If memory serves. If you count Sunday school, years before, considerably more than that. But in terms of chronological hours served it added up to more time than I spent studying art, Labor History, or any number of other things. More’s the pity.

But I don’t have any credentials to trot out and wave around. So sorry, Brother HC. So sorry.

59. marisacat - 22 May 2008

sort of catching up here, the tornado in COL is very dramatic…

60. marisacat - 22 May 2008

57

Hail Master!

Cobble together a bible and you are set for thousands of years… LOL…

61. lucid - 22 May 2008

JJB – 16

We’re on the same page… I was just pointing out one of the completely laughable sentences in Lieberman’s reality challenged rant that MitM quoted last thread. Yeah sure, Reagan never sat down with Khomeini, he just gave him arms in exchange for favors! I would think the latter would be considered the worst possible choice to any rational person [that is assuming Iran could even be considered a ‘threat’ now or then].

62. ms_xeno - 22 May 2008

Congratulations, brinn ! Sorry it looked like I was trying to steal your thunder there, but… [blush]

There are some major-league chuckleheads posting to that SF Chron piece. OTOH, even the some of the chuckleheads are nearly Rhodes Scholars compared to some of the idiocy I posted to the PDX Trib’s page every time I’m dumb enough to look there.

My favorite is the one who immediately trots out Nader to try and discredit Sheehan’s run. Like the dumbass on LJ who couldn’t wait to call McKinney “The New Nader.” Why is it that I voted for the guy three times and I’m STILL nowhere near as obsessed with him as this endless legion of idiots is ? [smacks forehead]

63. ms_xeno - 22 May 2008

Sorry. Should read “…some of the idiocy I’ve SEEN posted to the PDX Trib’s page…” But it’s true that reading over there makes you stupider, so don’t do it.

:p

64. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

Hi Master Brinn!

65. lucid - 22 May 2008

Congrats Brinn. :)

And HC, while the Bible and Biblical scholarship may be an important tool for understanding European and Middle Eastern history, I don’t think it incumbant upon anyone to familiarize themselves with it if they don’t so choose. While it might make it easier to elucidate the interstices between rightist regimes over the course of history in a scholarly manner, it isn’t required to make a rational argument for peace, justice, or ethical action, as has been amply demonstrated by both the history of philosophy and the history of leftist movements.

66. marisacat - 22 May 2008

Christ.

I had to order a paperback bible (as I could not find earlier editions I had here) when Bush went in… to look up all those isaiah passages he used.

67. marisacat - 22 May 2008

Arcturus

NBC 11 is saying a lot fo people have gthered at “Corralitos Community Church”, if you are trying to reach people in Corralitos. Big spaghetti dinner on apparently, anyone in earshot is welcomed.

68. lucid - 22 May 2008

Also:

But if most normal secular people learned the Bible, they’d recognize 90% of what these fundamentalists say is bullshit.

It doesn’t take any knowledge of the Bible to recognize that, just an actual beating heat and a couple of brain cells.

69. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008
70. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008
71. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

It doesn’t take any knowledge of the Bible to recognize that, just an actual beating heat and a couple of brain cells.

What I’m talking about is how you’d recognize how a lot of these fundamentalist preachers are using passages from the Bible not even appropriate to make their point and how their followers aren’t calling them on it.

It’s interesting to watch if you’re interested in just how much a lot of fundamentalist Christians actually read the Bible.

Hint. They don’t.

72. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

this is one of the most chickenshit comments ive had the displeasure of reading in these threads. nand not a word of truth in it.

Who should I believe, you or my own lying eyes?

Hillary’s mobilized the old Wallace coalition behind her and I’ve seen it work in action on my own family.

73. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

And HC, while the Bible and Biblical scholarship may be an important tool for understanding European and Middle Eastern history, I don’t think it incumbant upon anyone to familiarize themselves with it if they don’t so choose.

Nobody has to learn anything if he/she doesn’t chose, not the Bible, not the Koran, not Middle Eastern, not even American history.

It would be nice though when some wingnut starts talking about how the Koran orders Muslims to kill non Muslims just to point out Deuteronomy 20 and say “what do you think of that?”

74. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

71 – THEY AREN’T RATIONAL. You CANNOT argue with them, even on their own terms. It’s a fucking waste of time. They can only be mocked and repudiated.

Their marks have to reach an understanding of how they’ve been conned on their own.

75. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

71 – THEY AREN’T RATIONAL. You CANNOT argue with them, even on their own terms. It’s a fucking waste of time. They can only be mocked and repudiated.

You mean like approaching politics by saying things like “Bush is just stupid” or “fundamentalist Christians are just stupid?”

Haven’t “liberals” been doing this for the past 20 years even while they’ve been getting out organized, out debated, out protested by these stupid people.

If you’ve been “mocking” them you haven’t been doing a very good job because, to be honest, they’re getting the last laugh on you.

76. Arcturus - 22 May 2008

finally heard from Corralitos friend – her cell phone needed charging – can’t go home, hoping there still is one -staying w/ friends tonight

77. marisacat - 22 May 2008

It would be nice though when some wingnut starts talking about how the Koran orders Muslims to kill non Muslims just to point out Deuteronomy 20 and say “what do you think of that?”

Somewhere a dumbfuck fundie (of any persuasion) needs saving. Go for it!

78. marisacat - 22 May 2008

76

Good to hear that Arcturus… it sounds like the fire is still eating houses from some live interviews just up…. NBC 11 (out of San Jose) seems ot have gone to All Fire All the Time.

79. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

Somewhere a dumbfuck fundie (of any persuasion) needs saving. Go for it!

I’m a bit more worried about countering his arguments in front of people who might not be wingnuts, but who might be vulnerable to the idea that 9/11 was all about the Koran and not about history or economics.

80. marisacat - 22 May 2008

Oh but surely you heard Madman… terrists are poor religious zealots. Hungry too.

It is so simple.

Frankly, imo, the Democratic party is a fundie org. Got their own Jesus, finally.

81. Arcturus - 22 May 2008

radical feminist poet-scholar Susan Howe, in My Emily Dickinson (an archaelogy, really, of the American psyche):

. . . Rage and rigor in the name of Jehovah, larded with threats and dire prophecies from the Books of Jermeiah and Hosea, required inswerving submission to HIS absolute dominion.

[. . . quote Jeremiah . . .]

The vivid thetoric of terror was a first step in the slow process toward American Democracy.

(full passage here

82. wu ming - 22 May 2008

the bible talk is quite similar to americans talking about the constitution. both flawed, internally incoherent documents treated as holy writ by people who can’t bother themselves to read them.

using either ought to be done strategically at best, with an understanding that one is shamelessly cherrypicking, and trying to pull a fast one on one’s gullible audience.

appeal to authority, with two such messy texts, is madness.

83. Arcturus - 22 May 2008

& ED herself on the Great book:

The Bible is an antique Volume—
Written by faded men
At the suggestion of Holy Spectres—
Subjects—Bethlehem—
Eden—the ancient Homestead—
Satan—the Brigadier—
Judas—the Great Defaulter—
David—the Troubador—
Sin—a distinguished Precipice
Others must resist—
Boys that “believe” are very lonesome—
Other Boys are “lost”—
Had but the Tale a warbling Teller—
All the Boys would come—
Orpheus’ Sermon captivated—
It did not condemn—

1545.

84. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

the bible talk is quite similar to americans talking about the constitution. both flawed, internally incoherent documents treated as holy writ by people who can’t bother themselves to read them.

Except when it comes to the Constitution Americans are Catholics. No lay person has the right to interpret the Constitution for his or her self. Final authority is vested in an elite body of priests and a tradition of precedent.

When it comes to the Bible, most Americans are post Luther. Every individual DOES have the right to read and interpret the Bible for him or her self.

What a lot of fundamentalist Christians are doing when they attack the judiciary is appealing to an underlying protestant fear of Catholicism, of an elite. The courts are taking away YOUR religious liberty by putting the interpretation of ideas like “the seperation of church and state” in the hands of men with black robes.

85. Arcturus - 22 May 2008

mock, shun, argue w/ – no matter – the beast remains in play . . .

(well, “thetoric” is an intersting typo – “theotoric” would’ve been a great neologism, but SH uses “rhetoric of terror”

86. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

I’m a bit more worried about countering his arguments

YOU CAN’T. They aren’t, in the philosophical sense, ARGUMENTS. There is nothing to refute. The Abrahamic scriptures, and all of the crap that they have spawned, are almost dadaist in their self-contradictions.

Too much time has been wasted ARGUING with these people. They are of a different society, a different worldview. You either defeat them, or they crush you … people have been trying to “argue” with them for decades now, and look who is winning.

Advocate for what you believe … don’t waste time on the minutiae of magical texts.

87. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

appeal to authority, with two such messy texts, is madness.

and of course, appeals to authority are one of the great logical fallacies

88. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

69. Thanks, MitM.

Hi brinn! Free chicken-fried steak dinner with grits to celebrate if you ever make it up here.

89. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

Too much time has been wasted ARGUING with these people. They are of a different society, a different worldview. You either defeat them, or they crush you …

And part of the way you defeat them is by attacking their core beliefs to their faces. You SHOW them how their holy book contradicts itself. You make them argue for it.

It’s not going to work on hardened fundis any more than meeting a few Jewish people is going to convert a hardened neo nazi.

But we’re also talking about a lot of people who aren’t hardened, a lot of people under 25 who can still be reached.

I can’t do this. But maybe (getting ready for the shitstorm) some like Obama can, some highly visible figure who speaks their own language and leads them back from where their “leaders” are trying to take them.

What’s the other option? Just NOT to try to talk to people? Just to become a left wing version of an LGFer?

90. wu ming - 22 May 2008

53 –

we’re about three years into what looks to be a multiyear drought, and this is the second week of bone-dry winds. it’s going to be a horrible fire year if we don;t get some rain soon.

91. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

89. – that has been the tactic that the supposed left has been pursuing since with winger counterattack in the ’70s to Griswold, Roe etc …

IT

DOESN’T

WORK.

It’s far past time to just advocate for humanist beliefs, and stop wasting time arguing with magical thinking. YOU CANNOT ARGUE WITH THEM. They don’t BELIEVE in arguing … they believe in BELIEF.

There has to be a worldview for people to go to, and in a culture where there is no non-apologetic advocacy for a modern, rational, HUMANIST POV there is nowhere for people who might change their minds to go.

If they want to listen, I’ll talk to them, but if they aren’t listening (and they aren’t), then I can state my beliefs without trying to refute theirs. They have to do that on their own. You can’t refute a belief. You can’t tell a child there is no Santa Claus until they are already doubting him on their own. They have to take that step themselves.

For them to do that, there has to be somewhere for them to go when they stumble across a moment of clarity. You cannot ARGUE them there. You can only present a clear case for what you believe, and then walk away when they start spewing the winger agitprop. Once they do that, they’re not listening. You’re wasting their time and yours. State your beliefs, then shrug, say, “you’ll see” and WALK AWAY.

92. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

89. You SHOW them how their holy book contradicts itself.

Yeah. That sure worked well with Dr Laura, didn’t it?

But maybe (getting ready for the shitstorm) some like Obama can, some highly visible figure who speaks their own language and leads them back from where their “leaders” are trying to take them.

Praise the Lord. I mean the president.

You seem to forget that people have a right to believe in whatever superstitious stupidity they want to. What’s Obama going to do? Head out on Saturday morning like the rest of the religious missionaries knocking on doors to try and sell his religion? If you think that should be his job, he should stop running for president right now.

93. bayprairie - 22 May 2008

Who should I believe, you or my own lying eyes?

pound sand, chickenshit.

94. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

It’s far past time to just advocate for humanist beliefs, and stop wasting time arguing with magical thinking. YOU CANNOT ARGUE WITH THEM. They don’t BELIEVE in arguing … they believe in BELIEF.

So much us vs. them. To be honest, you remind me of the most rigid fundi right now. Them Muslims can’t be argued with. They only understand force.

For them to do that, there has to be somewhere for them to go when they stumble across a moment of clarity. You cannot ARGUE them there. You can only present a clear case for what you believe, and then walk away when they start spewing the winger agitprop. Once they do that, they’re not listening. You’re wasting their time and yours. State your beliefs, then shrug, say, “you’ll see” and WALK AWAY.

This doesn’t contradict in ANY way what I just argued. You show them on their terms how their belief system contradicts itself. Then when they freeze up and go into robot fundi speak, you walk away.

It doesn’t mean they don’t see what you’re saying later.

95. CSTAR - 22 May 2008

86.

Defeat them? That’s too much like martyrdom. When machine gun Mary comes to my door, I’ll tell her whatever she wants to hear. Chariots, Flying Saucers, half-witted divinities, whatever. Hopefully she’ll go away. If not, I’ll find another solution.

I’ll Move. I’ll find something useful to do. somewhere.

96. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

You seem to forget that people have a right to believe in whatever superstitious stupidity they want to.

Yes. They do, like this silly polarized world view that pits good guy secular leftists vs. religious fundamentalists.

If you’re not willing to see how Hagee’s statements will be received by both fundamentalist Christians AND Jews and how irrelevent it makes McCain’s “rejection” of his endorsement, then you satisfy yourself with the kind of heap moral victory the left has been getting suckered by for years now.

Oh wow. WE made McCain reject Hagee.

97. lucid - 22 May 2008

appeal to authority, with two such messy texts, is madness.

Which is precisely why developing notions of ‘justice’, ‘freedom’, ethical behaviour, etc. must be done without reference to ‘holy texts’… This was the philosophical project that resulted in science, and the rekindling of ideas of democracy, namely the ‘Copernican turn’ – the turn away from cosmogony as the basis for the idea of knowledge and toward rational universalism. Kant [among others] was famous for this – he developed an epistemology whose very first rule was to exclude the ‘unknowable’ as having any place in a theory of knowledge, namely god, the soul and the ‘thing in itself’.

And this is precisely what I would say in response to this:

I’m a bit more worried about countering his arguments in front of people who might not be wingnuts, but who might be vulnerable to the idea that 9/11 was all about the Koran and not about history or economics.

The people who aren’t completely irratonal ignorant fundies [who are hopeless] will be far more swayed by a rational, clearly laid out argument for economic justice than by an appeal to the fact that ‘Jesus hung out with the poor’. Nice sentiment and all, but if we’re trying to build a new world, let’s dispense with the sentimentality… And what is best about the best of the left in history, is that was their goal – to build a new world, one based on reason, justice, equality, ethical conduct, science, etc. – all those things that started to rear their ugly heads when intellectuals finally distanced themselves from the monastic tradition. I’ve personally found that when I stay away from religious discussions, arguing the minutiae of ‘holy texts’, and stick to sound, clear arguments, that I have a much better chance to convince, say, my fundie libertarian cousin, of the merits of voting for the Green Party. I grew up around fundies – I know them, I know how they think. You’re welcome to try to convince them that their reading of the Bible is incorrect, but if you want to serve a purpose in building a ‘new world’, you’ll find much more success bypassing the ‘holy writ’ and simply making sound arguments.

98. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

Yeah. That sure worked well with Dr Laura, didn’t it?

This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about.

A secular leftist walks up to a fundamentalist Christian and says “so if you believe the Bible is the literal word of God, then why aren’t you following the Jewish dietary laws”?

And the Christian fundi just nods at you and smiles because he realizes you haven’t read Paul’s epistle to the Romans about why Christians don’t have to follow the entire Mosaic law.

If you don’t understand the Bible and where that fundi is coming from, a cheap gotcha letter to Dr. Laura is going to have NO effect.

99. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

Btw, HcfM, I wrote a dkos diary about this topic back in 2005 in response to some kos dribble on the subject. My bottom line (as opposed to kos’): leave G*d, Jesus and the bible out of the political dialogue. They’re unnecessary.

100. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

So much us vs. them.

It is us vs. them. Well, maybe not you. You’re not a poor woman w/ no access to birth control or self, legal abortion b/c of where you live. You’re not a child w/ worthless public education b/c the religious nuts and racists (two types of irrational, magical thinking) have destroyed public education. Then again, neither am I. However, we have to face that this is a culture war, and that they are the only people fighting.

It is us vs. them.

Face that, it’s a fact of all of our lives. THEY ARE WINNING, and now that fucker Obama and that megalomaniac Clinton parrot religious misantropy to get themselves elected to the office where they too can order the slaughter of countless brown people.

We are in a culture war. Arguing is a waste of time. Crush or be crushed.

101. bayprairie - 22 May 2008

And part of the way you defeat them is by attacking their core beliefs to their faces. You SHOW them how their holy book contradicts itself. You make them argue for it.

all this wisdom from a “man” who’s spent today commenting scores of times on blogs. you over 100 yet? fast approaching armando territory, chickenshit. hard to save the world with all that “brilliance”, if you don’t step away from the machine.

just pissing in the pool really. another american male who’s never going to grow up.

102. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

My bottom line (as opposed to kos’): leave G*d, Jesus and the bible out of the political dialogue. They’re unnecessary.

Of course. You don’t base your politics on religious principles. All I’m arguing for is trying to understand people who do.

You want to open up negotiations with Iran or Hezbollah and go in without any understanding of Islam and the Koran?

Well you can do that. But your name would be George W. Bush.

Actually it wouldn’t. Bush doesn’t believe in talking to all fundis, only his own.

103. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

all this wisdom from a “man” who’s spent today commenting scores of times on blogs. you over 100 yet?

Dunno. I’m not counting. But I’m sure you’ll keep track of them for me and post the results at the end of the day.

Why add anything up yourself when you’ve got someone to do it for you :)

104. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

We are in a culture war. Arguing is a waste of time. Crush or be crushed.

Do you include Iran in this us vs. them polarization? They’re religious fundamentalists, after all? Is it Crush or be Crushed?

Becuase that’s where you’re leading.

105. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

98. Dr Laura is Jewish. WTF are you talking about?

106. lucid - 22 May 2008

91 & 97 – damn are we sockpuppets or something?

107. marisacat - 22 May 2008

new post.. of a sort………..

LINK

…………………….. 8)

108. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

Dr Laura is Jewish. WTF are you talking about?

I’m talking about arguing with Christian fundis (many of whom may listen to Dr. Laura, who’s made some noises about converting anyway).

What are YOU talking about?

109. Madman in the Marketplace - 22 May 2008

97 – well said lucid.

98 – snicker

This secular leftist asks the fundie not stupid questions like that, but rather “why are you so judgemental, and so lacking in human compassion?” THIS secular leftist points out that our suffering neighbors eventually have a horrible impact on even our own selfish little lives, even if they serve only as disease vectors. THIS secular leftist doesn’t waste his time on the evils of shellfish or pork. It’s a waste of time.

I’m just done with them. I think we have to let some hard rain fall on ALL of us, including the nuts, for it to sink in that the destruction of rational discourse and a public square not despoiled by expanding temples was bad for all of us.

Gonna take some hard turns before MAYBE we get to do what lucid tries to do in any mass, political movement sort of way. In a culture where any stumble or mistake is treated as a justification for punishment, there just isn’t any possibility of discourse.

I’ve been trying w/ people I know and love for 20 + years now to argue with people. Send them links. Recommend books and documentaries.

It doesn’t work.

110. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

Actually Dr. Laura’s NOT really Jewish

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34015

She’s a very late convert who backslid.

Schlessinger grew up in New York, the child of a Jewish father and a Catholic mother. She was a life-long atheist, who, in her 40s, began exploring and practicing Judaism.

111. marisacat - 22 May 2008

104

Their LEADERSHIP is religios fundies. A range of people from secular to religiously observant lives under that.

LOL we might care to observe. moving fast to that here. Listen to the mullahs. Do as they say.

112. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

What are YOU talking about?

Did you even read my dkos diary that I linked to? Using dueling bible quotes is asinine. And one more thing, you come in here acting like none of us has ever even read or studied the bible, the only form of ammo you seem to think works with the fundies. You’re wrong – on both counts,

113. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

Their LEADERSHIP is religios fundies. A range of people from secular to religiously observant lives under that.

Well if you’re going to disrespect religion, might as well go the whole nine yards.

Open up negotiations with Iran and send Condi. She can walk in with a bottle of Jack Daniels and a copy of Christopher Hitchens and say “have a drink You bloody Islamofascists.”

114. liberalcatnip - 22 May 2008

World Net Daily? That’s the best you could come up with? She’s Jewish. Period. Try and tell her that she isn’t.

115. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

Did you even read my dkos diary that I linked to? Using dueling bible quotes is asinine.

Not what I”m talking about.

That’s what YOU’RE talking about, like that silly letter to Dr. Laura, which almost any Christian fundi just shut out because it was based on a complete misunderstanding of anything Christian or Jewish fundis believe.

I’ll try to read your diary later. But I’d rather respond to your comments here.

116. marisacat - 22 May 2008

oh look bird dog, there is a dead bird ——————>

over there.

Having fun?

117. Hair Club for Men - 22 May 2008

World Net Daily? That’s the best you could come up with? She’s Jewish. Period. Try and tell her that she isn’t.

Her mother is Catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Laura

And she didn’t start practicing Judaism until her 40s.

Laura Schlessinger was born in 1947 in Brooklyn, New York, to Monroe (Monty) Schlessinger and Yolanda Ceccovini Schlessinger. She has a younger sister, Cindy, who is eleven years her junior. Schlessinger grew up first in Brooklyn, then in Long Island, New York. She has described her childhood in a dysfunctional family as unpleasant, because of extended family rejection of her mixed-marriage parents (her father was a non-practicing Jew, while her mother was an Italian non-practicing Roman Catholic) and what she has described as an unloving environment.

Schlessinger began practicing Judaism in 1996

118. wu ming - 22 May 2008

oh, and congratulations, brinn! how wonderful to have completed not one but two degrees, and have spare time to boot!


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