Tuesday Open Thread 24 October 2006
Posted by marisacat in 2006 Mid Terms, DC Politics, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter.trackback
Chris Hedges has an interesting piece on the political power of genocide – after the fact – in a discussion of the Armenian genocide and the modern use of the Holocaust.
[T]hese questions circle back to the dangerous sanctification of any genocide, the belief that one ethnic group can represent goodness, solely because its members are the victims, and another evil because from its ranks come the thugs who carry out mass slaughter. Once these demented killing machines begin their work the only thing unique is the method of murder. The lesson of any genocide is not that one group of human beings is better than another, but that in the intoxication of the moment, gripped by the mass hypnosis of state propaganda and the lust for violence, we can all become killers. All the victims must be heard. None are unique. And all of us have to be on guard lest we be seduced. We carry within us—German, Jew, Armenian or Christian—dark and dangerous lusts that must be held in check. I applaud the French. I hope the French action pushes the Turks toward contrition and honesty. But I do not wish for the Armenians to covet the Holocaust, to begin the process of sanctifying their own suffering. When we sanctify ourselves we do so at the expense of others.
In the body of the piece, he writes of the need for Turkey to acknowledge, apologise for their own sake as well as for the Armenians. And I have to think, as we blame the Iraqis for all that has passed across nearly 4 years since our invasion, who will make us apologise? No one, I would suppose.
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aemd linked to this in the previous thread, Billmon on an aspect of the Republican … by now I have to call it their instinctive battle plan.
[N]o, what’s interesting is that the Rovians felt compelled to volley back on the sex stuff in a way they never have with more garden-variety corruption charges, like those raised in the Abramoff-related scandals. Clearly, something in their polling or focus group work has convinced them this is different and far more dangerous.
There are exceptions, of course — the Abramoff connnection appears to be sinking Conrad Burns out in Montana, for example — but one gets the distinct impression that graft, bribery and fraud no longer pack much of a political punch with the American electorate. I mean, if the scandals of the past few years (the pecuniary equivalent of projectile vomiting) have had so little effect that the Rovian brain trust doesn’t even think it has to hit back, it tells you something.
Likewise, if the voters only now are putting on a semi-serious anger over the lost war in Iraq — hands down the most deceptive, corrupt and wholly botched government enterprise since . . . well, Hurricane Katrina — you have to wonder what it takes to get a rise out of the American people. But of course we already know what it takes: something that will really get a rise out of them, if you follow me. [snip]
In fairness, as I share aemd’s take – and here is a snip of his/her thoughts on Nov 7 from the previous thread
[A]fter the Reed/Abramoff scam, well…the last straw. All the hate backfired, bigtime.
Is it enough to get a solid majority in the House and Senate? IMHO, no. A couple of things are working against the Dems. First is over a decade worth of high tech, balls to the wall, GOP fundin’ and work on their GOTV. While the Dems are playin’ catch up, the GOP is moving to the next level. Second is, well, ego, the final coup. In a year where the GOP is so down in the polls, what a final stroke for the Rove machine to come out on top. Talk about makin’ headlines! [snip]
… let me link to Tuston’s comment from the same thread.
A snip:
[M]y reasoning surely would be termed the CT over at daily cocks and cockettes, and I can’t claim to arrive at my answer through any identifiable and verefiable instrument other than my own native internal calculus of intuititive integration of what info I pick up.
I have to disagree that the press are “setting up” the democrats but I think we are getting a dose of hype that won’t be lived up to. (I’ll freely admit that I ay be having a pipe dream, though)
I’m going toss circumspection and caution to my overblown wind as well as abandon my obsession with the satanism of sarcasm and make my own serious prediction of 23 and 5 (hmm those are some familiar primes) [snip]
Hope and cynicism… 😉 But no graphs. Not today anyway…
Killing a chicken at High Noon to read the entrails tho…
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UPDATE, 9:10 am
Not a graph… 😉 but a good read all the same from Who is IOZ [thanks to my emailer]
[S]mith doesn’t come right out and say it, but there’s a name for a political ideology based on a projected, utopian past that can only be reacquired through political acts whereby the cultural radicals are ousted and an imaginary old order restored: conservative.
Kos and his followers imagine themselves bolsheviks of Democratic liberalism, but their political ideology, such as it is, is deeply conservative. It serves up a unidentifiable, unspecified time of general well-being and social harmony, a status quo in which the only change that occured was “progress” in an exceedingly vague sense of a general improvement to the social and economic wellbeing of the society as a whole. It locates the rupture with that vision in certain political triumphs of its opponents, whom it accuses of revolutionarism. It dedicates its political actions to the recapture of such a past, which was taken away, and which must now be taken back. Things were better before, and once we go back, they’ll be better in the future again.
In that confusion of verb tenses you find the abject failure of the dreaming insurgents of the Democratic party.
Don’t miss the comment. Love that ”grab” metaphor… paucity of rhetoric on display.
As I read this I heard a very soft shoe debate with Conrad Burns in the run for ND senate…. I had to laugh, the Repub challenger (Grotberg was the name iirc) appeared to run against Burns’ vote for the war. That pesky IWR the Dems would like to forget.
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I have a prediction based on nothing but gut feelings:
***A major win in the mid term elections for Democratic candidates in the House and Senate will have castrophic repercussions on Hilliary presidential campaign.****
She will not be able to run a Kerry “any body but…” campaign.. the last refuge of a truly depised candidate. People will feel more at ease to vote their conscious knowing that the federal “checks and balances” (supposedly) have been restored… breathing space.
Hill s problem is that she refuses to stand for anything and if she listened to her husband … the one wise thing he said is that “People will go for strong and wrong every time … over weak and right”… well Hill is weak and wrong….weak not because she will match kill of r kill against McCain… weak because she is following McCains lead and letting him set the agenda.
Recommended diary:
Horseshit.
There’s definetely some adjustments in PR going on in Bushco. This caught my attention this morning:
yahoo news
I think this is a bogus; there are no plans to bug out and it will take some some tool similiar to a dentist’s tooth extractor to remove the “permanent bases.”
Aknowledging that the “stay the timeline” is pure hype, I have to think that it is indicative that Rove et al. are trying to counter the negative public opinion on Iraq and the issue is definetely causing the rethugs some pain.
Disgraciamente Schumer, Biden, Billary etc. aren’t really interested in pulling out of the region either so whatever way the wind blows in November I’m sure I’ll still feel nauseous after I leave the voting booth.
LOL Iraq will be an issue, nearly a repeat word for word of right now… but in ’08. I think it is like endlessly promising health care, but.
Grrreat campaign issue for both sides – depending.
Lotta fast rhetoric to smooth over the election just now. Co-Opt the Dems, what few words on Iraq they have finally developed… about it.
Iraq will be an issue, nearly a repeat word for word of right now… but in ‘08
Yeah, I think we can all figure that one out, even those of us without chickens to filet for auguries…
Robert Parry makes an important cautionary point:
It’s remarkable how happy the Dems are to talk horse race this year when the issues are so critical. Oh well, Howard Fineman tells them they might win. I agree, Marisa. It does seem like an MSM setup.
I said right from the start of our Mesopotamian misadventure that it would be an issue through, at the very least, the Presidential election of 2012, and probably beyond. Nothing that’s happened since then has given me a reason to change my mind about that.
And much as I’d like to believe that we aren’t about to launch an attack on Iran, this Reuters story doesn’t give cause for optimism:
Mind you, what Reuters considered worthy of the lede, the NY Times buried in the last paragraphs of the story. Their take on it emphasized a possible increase of US troops in Baghdad, and says the press conference was intended mostly to smooth over differences between BushCo. and the Iraqi “government” with regards to dealing with the violence no one dares call a civil war. Still, there is this interesting little nugget once the Times does finally get around to mentioning the strong language directed at Syria and Iran:
Here’s AP’s story via Newsday, which doesn’t make much of a possible increase in the US troops in Baghdad, instead leding with the ridiculous claim that the Iraqi government might realistically be able to field security forces that will control the country within 12-18 months, as does this story in the WaPo. I notice that both the BBC and Guardian stories are also emphasizing the “12-18 Months And All Will Be Well!” Maybe I’m wrong, but I get the feeling that Reuters is the only outlet to concentrate on what was really important about this Panic Presser.
I think Iraq was always part of the 25 – 50 – 100 year plan. People at Kos used to sagely post “WE will be there for 10 years” and I’d post right beneath:
10 x 10.
So is the former Yugoslavia, same long range plan for a form of occupation. Just smaller and quieter, less bloody. We are not leaving Iraq… never were going to leave Iraq. Not willingly.
Most of the current sloberation is to co opt what little rhetoric the Dems have cobbled together.
Billmon has an amusing take on Casey and Khalilzad’s little vaudeville routine.
also in line with JJB is this from Danny Schechter
Re The Chris Hedges piece.
It’s very saddening to read the comments. It reminds me of the comments to Gideon Levy in Haaretz during the Israel-Lebanon war. My emotional reaction was then (and is now) not of anger, but of distress and sadness.
CSTAR … agree. The comments were depressing.
I’ve been known to go back to something I’ve written to correct grammar or fix a broken link without noting it, but to make major redactions or change a story/diary name without mentioning that you’ve done it is dishonest…
Well the Eternal Hype link that Cactus Ed quotes (as well as the CT link from my “serious prediction comment”) has switched titles from
“Gullible Kossacks make asses of themselves” to “Accuracy at Daily Kos.”
No note of the change is made in the story, and maybe I’m nitpicking but even the smallest things have significance, and like all the shyte shoveled around there can’t cover up any the overwhelming evidence of fraud perpetuated on the gullible (and I ain’t talkin’ bout the folks wearin’ tinfoil)
MCat,
Hmmmmmm . . . .
Something tells me that yesterday’s visit wasn’t the first one IOZ has made to Big Orange Slop. I detect the sly wit of someone who’s been banned by one or the other of the FP thugs. I wonder who it is? Very good analysis of what he/she read, however, and also very judicious of him/her not to shoot ducks in a barrell by quoting the extraordinarily embarrassing material that lay about the comment thread. nyceve’s effusions were material enough to make the point.
That post in the comment thread came out of left field with its Henry Wallace reference, I must say. Maybe it was intended as a rhetorical tribute to the man who once declaimed “[n]ew horizons beckon with meaningful opportunities.” Saying that HW was VP for 4 years says nothing beyond stating a historical fact. It’s either a good, bad, or indifferent thing, depending on your political views, and the reactionary, drunken, racist Cactus Jack Garner was VP for 8 years during FDR’s first two terms, so what’s the point?
I’ve always had mixed feelings about Wallace. He was certainly naive about Stalin. Then again, he was just about the only prominent post-war US politician to question whether propping up regimes in league with and often controlled by gangsters in countries like Italy, Greece, Turkey, South Korea, and Japan had anything to do with supporting democracy or serving long-term US interests. He was loathed by Big Business, which saw to it that the post of Secretary of Commerce lost a great deal of its power when he was given that post after he swallowed his pride and agreed not to make waves over stepping aside as Vice President. And since I provided a rather silly quote to poke fun at him earlier, here’s another that’s quite perceptive, and has particular resonance for the US today: “The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information.”
blogging ethics principle — never delete: add updates, use strikethroughs, post follow-ups, but never delete.
In that confusion of verb tenses you find the abject failure of the dreaming insurgents
That’s a very perceptive post – thx for the pointer.
I take it the Mackey quotes didn’t do much for ya?
Came across this yesterday. “Genocide” may or may not be the apt term – at a certain point I’m not so sure the words matter:
I’m not putting much stock in all the ‘exit strategy’ talk, but would love to be wrong. At this point, even a retreat to the mega-bases would be an improvement. That they are finally distinguishing the Sunni insurgents from ‘al qaeda’ might give some small cause for hope tho.
Absolutely agreed about the long-term view of these conflicts – & Iran & the Caucasus belong in that mix as well as Iraq & Yugoslvaia – not to mention positioning in Central Asia. So long as ‘our guys’ aren’t dieing, we like to fool ourselves into thinking we’re at peace (recalling BM’s praise of the ‘peaceful Clinton’ years in an exchange w/ me once), as if economic & covert warfare had no effect in the wolrd, or didn’t kill people those infamous ‘levers of diplomacy’).
JJB: do you know what year that Wallace quote is from?
Tuston,
Thanks for pointing that out. Changing the title that way makes a hell of a difference, doesn’t it? And how could it possibly be off the recommended list when it has far more recommends than most of what’s there currently? I wonder if the author changed the title, judging from some very truculent comments at the end of the thread, I suspect someone else did.
In that confusion of verb tenses you find the abject failure of the dreaming insurgents
That’s a very perceptive post – thx for the pointer.
I take it the Mackey quotes didn’t do much for ya?
Came across this yesterday. “Genocide” may or may not be the apt term – at a certain point I’m not so sure the words matter:
I’m not putting much stock in all the ‘exit strategy’ talk, but would love to be wrong. At this point, even a retreat to the mega-bases would be an improvement. That they are finally distinguishing the Sunni insurgents from ‘al qaeda’ might give some small cause for hope tho.
Absolutely agreed about the long-term view of these conflicts – & Iran & the Caucasus belong in that mix as well as Iraq & Yugoslavia – not to mention positioning in Central Asia. So long as ‘our guys’ aren’t dieing, we like to fool ourselves into thinking we’re at peace (recalling BM’s praise of the ‘peaceful Clinton’ years in an exchange w/ me once), as if economic & covert warfare had no effect in the wolrd, or didn’t kill people those infamous ‘levers of diplomacy’).
testing . . .
thank you so much kos for making sure we didn’t have to read that diary title. thank you so much for understanding us better than we do ourselves. please oh kos, help me. help me. and thank you again.
odd, I’ll try again.
In that confusion of verb tenses you find the abject failure of the dreaming insurgents
That’s a very perceptive post – thx for the pointer.
(also loved this: “The takeback they have in mind is simply to take back a place at the trough for their office-seeking snouts. So the wish-fulfilment dream of the troops, and the unconscious self-revelation of the pols, dovetail in one of those beautiful, overdetermined conjunctures that nobody could ever have designed.”)
I take it the Mackey quotes didn’t do much for ya?
Came across this yesterday. “Genocide” may or may not be the apt term – at a certain point I’m not so sure the words matter:
I’m not putting much stock in all the ‘exit strategy’ talk, but would love to be wrong. At this point, even a retreat to the mega-bases would be an improvement. That they are finally distinguishing the Sunni insurgents from ‘al qaeda’ might give some small cause for hope tho.
Absolutely agreed about the long-term view of these conflicts – & Iran & the Caucasus belong in that mix as well as Iraq & Yugoslavia – not to mention positioning in Central Asia. So long as ‘our guys’ aren’t dieing, we like to fool ourselves into thinking we’re at peace (recalling BM’s praise of the ‘peaceful Clinton’ years in an exchange w/ me once), as if economic & covert warfare had no effect in the wolrd, or didn’t kill people those infamous ‘levers of diplomacy’).
are posts w/ links being moderated now? for some reason, I can’t post
Arcturus… really sorry. They were in Spam.
Which they should not be, weeks ago I changed the default on links, raising the number allowed for a known commenter to high enough number to keep almost any comment from going to Spam.
But also, in the last three weeks I now get up to 300 spam comments a day.
The filters on WordPress may be over whelmed.
Sorry. Also I took the site off full moderation about 3 hours ago.
Sorry again..
No need to apologize to moi. I think I owe you one for the triple-post.
marisacat: Thanks so much for the link. I’m enjoying your site; this is my first visit.
Arcturus: thank’s for the compliment. Do you know the poem “The Mind Is an Ancient and Famous Capital” by Delmore Schwartz? It involves your sn in a lovely closing line.
JJB: This was indeed my first real trip to Kos in quite some time, spurred on by some email correspondents who kept asking me to make fun of the fellow. I thought I might try to make a point while I made fun.
Hello IOZ… 😉
As no doubt you know, you are linked elsewhere too… and it was Madman at LSF who began sending me links to you a few weeks ago.
I absolutely enjoy your site…
IOZ,
Hello and welcome! And whether that was your first visit, or the ten-thousandth, it was a very good takedown.
Ok, IOZ, I’m impressed by anyone who’d cite the author of “In Dreams Begin Responsibilities” (which come to think o it might deserve a re-read these days). I first used the sn in a short-lived poetry printing project & have a slew of citations from Hesiod through Zukofsky (& beyond), but the DS escaped me. Many thanks! & it looks like you’ve gained another reader as well . . .
Here’s how clueless I am – I don’t know why Kos banned Marisacat.
Anyway, does anyone have this strange sinking feeling about the Democrats?
JJB says;
it was on the recommended last night or early a.m. i noted it also, under the old title, and was rolling my eyes rat the text cactus ed blockquoted.
the little sniglet i quoted above (before rushing off to the dentist AHHH) concerning blog ethics i believe i got from mediagirl during an email discussion several of us were having some time ago. i’ve since taken it to heart and use it as a go-by. i do agree that minor changes in the sense of typographical corrections are certainly permissible. adjusting a mispelling, correcting a comma, things of that nature.
i personally feel that changing the headline completely should be noted at the bottom of the post.
I saw a thing w/ Gelb about partitioning Iraq with a fawning Soledad O’Brian on CNN last week. They put up an interesting map (which I’ve been unable to find a link to) of a Kurdish north, a Shi’a southeast, a Sunni Northwest, and a big area called “Iraq” in the southwest (nearly the entire area south of the Euphrates). Home of new megabases, hmmmmm?
For the record, the algorithm for recommended diaries at Daily Kos gives more emphasis to new recommends. In other words, as recommends “age,” they carry less recommending clout. Otherwise, a diary with, say, 700 recommends would stay on the top of the list until another with the same number replaced it, and these are relatively rare. Thus, it is no surprise that a diary that receives 50 or so recommends within a few minutes of being posted may move quickly to the middle or even the top of the recommended list, while one with several hundred recommends dating back eight or ten hours will drop off the list.
Carry on.
btw, there’s amazing new feud on at dk as the kos finds himself again tripping over his own tongue and ego but this time the herd is not flaggellating themselves at the master’s feet…
it’s clear that markos is a sociopath…
“Ok apparantly (0 / 0)
we must find Kos to be right all of the time or we get the dreaded troll”
“Ok apparantly (0 / 0)
we must find Kos to be right all of the time or we get the dreaded troll”
kos is in trouble over his petulant inaccurate “fuck you john kerry” diary. the herd is letting him have it.
but it’s clear that markos is a sociopath.
IOZ, at first glance (I’m always distracted) I thought you were giving a stylized description of the site. There is indeed a lot of clapping and cheering there; the passing crucifix seemed to be a metaphorical reference to Pastor what’s-his-name.
I just found 6 comments in Spam… and let them out.
Sorry!!
I am beginning to think the Word Press filters are overwhelmed, from the volume of real spam I have picked up.
Hello Fladem!
Re The Democrats:
I think we are still trapped in that world described bakc in ’00… we are like a nickel spinning on the edge of a table top… And that 50/50 tension would have been the story in ’00 but for Florida, Bush V Gore and whatever else. Oh pregnat chads.. ;).
Yah mon! Babylon White Powder es puro diablo!
But Evo Morales es Santo!
well, maybe not:
Still, I’ve got to tip my hat to el don verdadero for tryin’:
MSGE
Yeah, secret formula! Serious self-poisoners know that there is one legitimate US importer of of Coca-leaf (a park city, nj company that shall remain un-named) for extraction of cocaine for pharmeceutical use the rest if the extract is sold to coke…
In other fiending news it seems that somebody at Los Alamos has been speeding on the scourge d’ jour
Too bad Khat was made illegal her during the Somalia-what-ever-it-was…I’m willin’ to bet a coca-khat-cola soda would be quite stimulating.
From a purely rational perspective, I think the argument for the legalization of dilute forms “drugs” (e.g. evo cola) is hard to beat.
But then again, I’m biased
damn broken links!
Babylon White Powder
and
Los Alamos has been speeding on the scourge d’ jour
what ocd?
OMG! I just followed the link to Who is IOZ above…fucking brilliant!
I believe the proper response is: Oh SNAP!
Isn’t it a great posting, from Who is IOZ?
Wonderful writing too.
😉
A highly respected historian/sociologist/political behaviorist recently wrote, “Americans love to win,” and there’s an interesting piece of commentary on the effects of that on Counterpunch.
A mother is upset about the way that “rah! rah!” football has permeated even the ivied halls of Macalester College with the result that her son has been kicked off the team for failing to remove his helmet during the opening “God bless America” ceremonies. She also recounts how school officials went to ridiculous lengths to manipulate the local press so they could control the story.
Her point is that the “winner take all” religion of America is eating her young and that of other countries too–the former through punishing those who step out of line and the latter more viciously with bombs and bullets.
(One irony: she begins the piece by citing all of Macalester’s USNWR glory)
I liked her close which includes a quote from a song with which this aging boomer isn’t familiar:
So I guess that is why M. Beard’s diary on Chevron and the California GOP disappeared so quickly….
Keep on clapping!
One of the more obnoxious blogmaids jumps on a diarist for the title, “Face It, Folks, the Democrats Could Lose (Unless We Can Get Out the Vote).”
My suggestion? (14+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Philosopher, StephNW4Clark, tlh lib, Nathaniel Ament Stone, admiralh, churchylafemme, tabbycat in tenn, Elise, jorndorff, begone, debedb, FireCrow, Mishima, CenterLeft
Change the title of this diary.
Michael Steele
by BarbinMD on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 10:52:15 PM PDT
[ Reply to This |Recommend ]
*
I know you’re in it for shock value (5+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Philosopher, tlh lib, admiralh, BarbinMD, Elise
but now is the time for solidarity and positive momentum, not fake shock bombs.
We’ve got the Republican party for that.
by StephNW4Clark on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 10:56:22 PM PDT
[ Parent | Reply to This |Recommend ]
o
Yeah, I know. It’s pretty trollish… (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
gkn
…but unfortunately I think it’s going to be completely accurate, unless progressive–but lazy/busy/clueless–slobs like me get off our asses in the immediate run-up to the election and volunteer.
Tell you what, though: I’ll change the title as soon as I get 10 good suggestions.
by StupidAsshole on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 11:04:11 PM PDT
[ Parent | Reply to This |Recommend ]
+
We’re all going to die today (8+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Philosopher, tlh lib, hhex65, Elise, jorndorff, begone, occams hatchet, tonyfv
…unless we continue to breathe. Totally accurate.
You could have gone with any number of titles.
GOTV Vital For Victory On November 7th
GOTV Key To Victory On November 7th
We Must GOTV To Win On November 7th
Working To GOTV On November 7th
And so on…
Michael Steele
by BarbinMD on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 11:09:14 PM PDT
[ Parent | Reply to This |Recommend ]