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Who says the Democrats don’t have a plan? 26 October 2006

Posted by marisacat in 2006 Mid Terms, DC Politics, Democrats, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, U.S. House, U.S. Senate.


From the LA Times:

[R]epublicans are spotlighting that lineup, portraying it as extremist. They jumped on Conyers for calling for impeachment hearings against Bush, an idea Pelosi flatly dismisses. Republicans delight in pointing out that Hastings, before becoming a House member, was impeached as a federal judge.

Democrats say they believe such tactics are designed to mobilize conservatives and will not eclipse their efforts to present a more moderate face to swing voters. The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee last year made a point of recruiting conservative candidates and even some former Republicans for this year’s midterm election, in some cases muscling out more-liberal contenders who seemed likely to lose in Republican-leaning territory.

“The Democrats are going to retake the House of Representatives by electing conservative and moderate Democrats,” said Rep. Mike Ross (D-Ark.), a member of the Blue Dog Coalition.

“We’re going to move our party back to the middle.”

I wonder, where it has been?  Over and over, they gave Bush what he wanted.  If he needed 3, 18 or 23 Dems in the senate, he got it.  If he needed 1 or 44 or 100 in the House, he got it.  There is NOTHING across three congresses that the Republicans cannot point to and say, “it was a bi-partisan vote”.

Those Republicans!, they can ferret out a stray drop of soft liberal sheep’s blood hiding under the conservative wolf’s still bloody dripping skin:

In Indiana, GOP Rep. John Hostettler is running behind Democrat Brad Ellsworth, a sheriff who opposes abortion rights and same-sex marriage. But a new Hostettler radio ad says a vote for Ellsworth would be a vote for Pelosi.

“Pelosi will then put in motion her radical plan to advance the homosexual agenda,” the ad says.

In Kentucky, ads by GOP Rep. Ron Lewis call attention to the fact that his Democratic opponent, retired Army Col. Mike Weaver, has accepted donations from Pelosi. “He is not a certified conservative,” Lewis said.

But Weaver, a state representative, is against abortion, gun control and same-sex marriage. He founded a conservative group in the state Legislature to push his party to the right.

In North Carolina, Shuler, who is running against GOP Rep. Charles H. Taylor, turned down encouragement to run for the House in 2002 as a Republican, despite his conservative views.

Shuler, a former quarterback for the Washington Redskins and New Orleans Saints, stuck with the Democratic Party, his spokesman said, because he wanted to “help those who cannot help themselves — and that’s the Democratic Party.”

But Shuler dodges the question of whether he would support Pelosi as speaker, saying he wants to interview all candidates for that post.

What I have heard is this sort runs on the Democratic ticket, as it works for an election [there already is a Republican] OR the demographics in a certain area, however conservative, still require a “D” next to the name.  I hear that is why Gene Taylor runs as a Dem… his district would not pull the lever for him in MS.


All the pro life (which has little to do with abortion but for the vehicle it provides, “pro-life” is the Republican agenda) get together once they reach DC. 

Poor Dems. 

This is a Harper’s article from 2005  (word of warning, not an easy read in some parts, but informative about “PBA” as a vehicle) tracing the medical procedure labeled “partial birth abortion” by the pro lifers, tracing how the issue surfaced and gave the pro lifers extraordinary viability for nearly 15 years.

[T]he term “partial-birth abortion” was invented for purposes of writing legislation. There is no textbook reference to any operative procedure or medical state called “partial birth.” There are a few published medical references to “dilation and extraction,” or “intact dilation and evacuation,” both of which are terms certain physicians have given to the forceps-aided extraction of an aborted fetus all in one piece. One technique for intact removal was described in detail in 1992, when an Ohio physician got up at a National Abortion Federation meeting, presented a paper entitled “Dilation and Extraction for Late Second Trimester Abortion,” and inadvertently triggered the cross-country chain of events that escalated into what Kate Michelman, the recently retired president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, now says was the most difficult abortion issue she was ever called upon to confront. “Silver platter” is another way this sentiment is sometimes expressed, among abortion doctors and abortion-rights advocates, or “gift-wrapped.” By this they mean the swiftness, the devastating ease, with which they found themselves ceding their opponents control over the public imagination the month the first Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act was introduced in Congress, nearly a decade ago.  [snip]

A straightforward page from the Alan Guttmacher Institute.  89% take place in the first trimestre, as procedures and testing advance, very early abortions (4 weeks and prior) are embraced.  But it is not the pro lifers goal to contain abortion.

No.  They want to contain women.  And the Democrats are helping.  Always have.


Lemieux in TAPPED takes a look at the NJ court ruling. [from Madman]  Same sex unions or marriages or whatever.  The issue, as always, is RIGHTS.  Equality.  Equal Access.  Equal protection.  Equal right to privacy.

Full citizenship.

But no, mired in the fake “morals” clause…

Or take a gander at what the REAL Christians are saying already about that soft propagandist, Obama.

Did anyone read the TIME Magazine article on Obama? It really creeped me out. At one of Obama’s speaking engagements he was introduced in the following way: “He’s all of us! He’s not black! He’s not white! He’s not …” The speaker then faltered and realized that she was about to say that He’s not male or female. This kind of a description for anyone is worrysome. I believe that this is exactly how antichrist will be… Not to mention that everything seems to be falling into place for end-times events to occur. Just my humble opinion.

Yes, I believe he will win in 08 and we will be finished by 012. I feel in my soul that he is the AntiChrist. He’s too good to believe. Where did he come from? Where did his name come from? What evil forces are behind him?

Meanwhile Obama says this (laugh now, laugh later too):

And further, it will require us to innovate and experiment with whatever ideas hold promise (including market- or faith-based ideas that originate from Republicans). 

Obama yet again:  

”And a pro-union Democrat doesn’t become anti-union if he or she makes a determination that on balance, CAFTA will help American workers more than it will harm them.”

Poor Dems.

I wrote a piece last fall on Obama and the utter foolishness of the Democrats… I only link to the x-post at BMT as it had an excellent comment from “RecordKeeper”:

Re: Amen (4.00 / 4)

And further, it will require us to innovate and experiment with whatever ideas hold promise (including market- or faith-based ideas that originate from Republicans).

Well, that’s one of the most disturbing things I’ve read in a while. The Democratic Party has been broken and trained by the bullies of the GOP. They’ve accepted their new role as the “beta” party to the “alpha” Republicans.

I found Obama’s lecture — this was the term that came to me as well — cautious, reasonable, smooth, seductive, and completely fallacious. I couldn’t finish it because it made me feel enervated and agitated, at the same time. It’s a dangerous piece of writing, for that reason. It’s a winningly political, sugarcoated spoonful of medicine to intended to sedate uppity radicals.

What made me angriest was the part about how the people in Illinois, he’s met in his travels, don’t think Bush is a criminal, or a liar, etc, etc. So, why are these ill-informed, middle-of-the-road, people in utter denial, more important than me, or any of the people venting their spleens in the blogosphere. Why are politicians bending over backwards to cater to a mushy middle, with a total lack of civic awareness. That amounts to the ill-informed dictating policy. Frightening! No wonder we’re in such a mess.

“I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or prostitute.” ~ Rebecca West

by Recordkeeper (lavaughn@celestialhealing.com) on Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 at 02:42:25 PM EST


UPDATE, 5:33 pm

From the AP in the LA Times:

“Ideologically, there will be more friends coming,” said Nelson, one of the more conservative Democrats in the Senate. “The center will have a great deal of influence.”


  Irfan Khan / LAT October 26

Sun is blocked by the heavy smoke from a fast moving Esperanza fire. Fire crew is blocked by the fast moving brush over highway 243.  (Irfan Khan / LAT)  Oct 26, 2006

These winds were devil winds,” Boss said. “They came out of nowhere.”

Sometimes the CA wildfires seem to mimic the undertone in the nation – or the wars.   The fires from the Santa Ana winds that come in off the desert, then blow hot and hard across the mountains down into the valleys and canyons, this fire, they say, blasted to life in the middle of the night, from arson… Earlier, residents in Riverside Co. were told to “shelter in place” … now they are running for their lives.

One very bad day in Iraq a couple of years ago, the fires from the Santa Ana winds exploded and leapt the coastal road, to the sea.

[G]orgonio View Road, where five firefighters were consumed by flames — four of them dying — is well known to Nye Frank, 68, a former firefighter.  “It’s not a good place to be in a fire,” said Frank, 68, “With winds blowing east to west, you are in a high place, with flames coming uphill. You are quickly in harm’s way.”  […]

Winds remained so strong they rumbled like earthquakes and shook cars. Flames sometimes a hundred feet high erupted along Highway 243 from Banning toward Idyllwild as the fire grew in strength.  Fires like rolling balls descended across roads where people were trying to escape, forcing cars to retreat back up the road.

The fire wrought its most serious destruction on rural Twin Pines Road, not far from the area of greasewood and scrub oak stands where the firefighters died. [snip]

   LA Times
      (Irfan Khan / LAT)  Oct 26, 2006

I recall being told, when I first moved to Los Angeles and was living on an isolated beach, that the Indians would throw themselves into the sea when the bad wind blew.  I could see why.  The Pacific turned ominously glossy during a Santa Ana period, and one woke in the night troubled not only by the peacocks screaming in the olive trees but by the eerie absence of surf.  The heat was surreal.  The sky had a yellow cast, the kind of light sometimes called “earthquake weather.”  My only neighbor would not come out of her house for days, and there were no lights at night, and her husband roamed the place with a machete.  One day he would tell me that he had heard a trespasser, the next a rattlesnake. …

It is hard for people who have not lived in Los Angeles to realize how radically the Santa Ana figures in the local imagination.  The city burning is Los Angeles’s deepest image of itself.  Nathaniel West perceived that, in The Day of the Locust, and at the time of the 1965 Watts riots what struck the imagination most indelibly were the fires.  For days one could drive the Harbor Freeway and see the city on fire, just as we had always known it would be in the end.  Los Angeles weather is the weather of catastrophe, of apocalypse, and, just as the reliably long and bitter winters of New England determine the way life is lived there, so the violence and the unpredictability of the Santa Ana affect the entire quality of life in Los Angeles, accentuate its impermanence, its unreliability.  The winds shows us how close to the edge we are.

Excerpt from Slouching towards Bethlehem, © by Joan Didion.


UPDATE, 11 AM Friday

She did not support it before she projected she would not oppose it in the future, dependent on what NY state lege and Spitzer may do… I think that is what Hillareeeeeeeee said here… Snips from The Note:

Sen. Clinton makes news on same-sex marriage:
Sen. Clinton told a group of gay elected officials Wednesday that she would not oppose same sex marriage in New York if the state legislature and governor enacted it. LINK

According to the Gay City News, when Sen. Clinton was asked about plans Eliot Spitzer, the Democratic candidate for governor, has to introduce a gay marriage bill, Sen. Clinton said: “if our governor and our Legislature support marriage in New York, I’m not going to be against that. . . So I feel very comfortable with being able to refute anybody who tries to pit us or pit me against Eliot.” LINK

During a May 26, 2005 interview on CNN’s “Inside Politics,” Sen. Clinton said: “Well, I don’t know many Democrats who support gay marriage. In fact, I don’t and haven’t for, you know, years before I became a Senator.”


UPDATE, 5:30 on the Pacific…

Uh no… it means apparatchiks took direction well… but call it “love”… if you wish.  😉

Feel the Love

DCCC Chairman Rahm Emanuel Statement issued the following statement on recent “Use It or Lose It” efforts by Democratic House Members and grassroots activists to support the DCCC and Democratic candidates:

“Throughout the cycle, the remarkable grassroots movement for change has buoyed Democratic efforts to expand the playing field, support our candidates, and ultimately win a Democratic majority that can take our country in a new direction,” said Rahm Emanuel. “The recent unity shown between grassroots activists and Democratic Members to ensure that we can compete in dozens of newly competitive districts is heartening to the DCCC and all of our Democratic challengers.”



1. TustonDAZ - 26 October 2006

Fuck Obama; Yo conozco quien es de la hacienda y quien es del campo and it ain’t as easy as color…’nuff said.

Border Wall Bonanza on the Local News tonight….they managed to find the usual suspects to support it:
a very white, very retired midwestern transplant
an endogenous confederate rancher descendent (tho these are becoming more rare as they sell out their ranches to developers from CA and CO)
and very scandanavian tourist(quote, “Canada isn’t beating down our doors”, dontcha-ya-know))
Just as obvious were the choices for those contra la pared (against the wall)
The mayor of Nogales
A US hispanic with a cultural accent
and the average retired white joe headed to Mexico to buy cheap prescriptions drugs

2. Madman in the Marketplace - 26 October 2006

Ah, one of the Nelsons … so much bi-partisan evil to thank THAT bastard for … though I’m not all that certain that the Dems wet dreams are going to come true. Counting their chickens, while the Republicans get to work building the fires for the barbecue.

3. bayprairie - 26 October 2006

if everyone doesn’t clap really loud Tinker Bell will die.

one can only hope that maya lin also designs memorials for failed candadacies. in the event that one is required, of course.

4. Ezekiel - 26 October 2006

Fascinating link, bayprairie. thereisnospoon certainly establishes his credentials to be a consultant in at least one respect–never once does he raise the question of the true source of Webb’s inspiration. Apparently, that’s irrelevant.

5. marisacat - 26 October 2006

I finally went to Dkos and what did I see but that diary of thereisnospoon riding at th top of the Cock Walk.

What a hoot.

I wonder what time it went up at Drudge… because Tweety was pulling out some old protest era quotes from Webb today. I caught just a bit of it. Something about Jane Fonda slitting her wrists… and he would nto cross the street to watch or help her or something.

Pretty juvenile frankly.

LOL NOBODY believes that Webb voted for Kerry. NOBODY…


6. Madman in the Marketplace - 27 October 2006

the stupid fanboys at the orange frathouse believe that he did … they’ll believe anything that the mob TELLS them they should believe.

7. TustonDAZ - 27 October 2006

Hill-O-beans meet with gay activists is NYC last night

In an appearance early Wednesday evening in front of roughly three-dozen LGBT leaders, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton indicated that she would not oppose efforts by Eliot Spitzer, the odds-on favorite to become the new governor, to enact a same-sex marriage law in New York.

She also suggested that language she used when she first ran for the Senate in 2000 explaining her opposition to marriage equality based on the institution’s moral, religious, and traditional foundations had not reflected the “many long conversations” she’s had since with “friends” and others, and that her advocacy on LGBT issues “has certainly evolved.”

On Wednesday, Clinton presented her position on marriage equality as more one of pragmatism.
Doug Robinson, the co-president of the Out People of Color Political Action Club who with his partner of more than 20 years has raised two sons, spoke about the pressures his family faces in sending both to college without the benefits of marriage’s economic advantages. In what began as a strong challenge to Clinton, Robinson said, “We need your support on marriage, we need you to look at that.”

Yet, just as Robinson was about to yield the floor for Clinton’s response, he offered her a bit of wiggle room.
“Even if you say civil marriage isn’t as important as equal benefits, in my mind I don’t care what you call it,” he concluded. “But I need the same things that everyone does so I can sustain my family.”

It was at this point that the senator stated her support for “full equality of benefits, nothing left out,” before saying that civil unions offered the more certain route to that goal.

“If you go the next step and say, ‘But I want what is called marriage,’ you’re going to have a problem.”

Just don’t call it marriage, you freaks.

I think I’m going to go read some of Webb’s Dad on Son pornography…

8. JJB - 27 October 2006

If you’re looking for incendiary quotes from Webb, the latest New Yorker is a great place to start:

When Webb deployed to Vietnam as a raw second lieutenant, in 1969, he had no particular political leanings.. . . Returning home, he felt that he and others like him had been driven from a Democratic Party that had, he believed, sacrificed a broad populist tradition to the passions of the intemperate margins.. . . He denounced “the ones who fled” the war, and inveighed against the acts of the Watergate Congress, which, elected after Richard Nixon’s disgrace, in 1974, halted funding to South Vietnam, hastening its doom.. . . Webb declared Jimmy Carter’s blanket pardoning of draft resisters a rank betrayal and an abuse of Presidential power. When President Clinton left office, he wrote, “It is a pleasurable experience to watch Bill Clinton finally being judged, even by his own party, for the ethical fraudulence that has characterized his entire political career.”

Webb reserved a good portion of his pique for the “activist Left and cultural Marxists” and their efforts to effect “what might be called the collectivist taming of America, symbolized by the edicts of political correctness.” He saw the Pentagon’s prolonged investigation of the Navy Tailhook sexual-abuse scandal in the nineteen-nineties as a political witch hunt, driven by a radical-feminist agenda to undermine the masculine culture of the military. Affirmative action, he posited, quickly became a means of victimizing white men through “state-sponsored racism.”

In “Born Fighting,” Webb developed the thesis that has become the rationale for his Senate run. Democrats, he argued, had foolishly written off the Southern white male, in the mistaken belief that it was a necessary cost of the Party’s leadership in the civil-rights era. Southern rednecks thus became a convenient symbol of all that impeded progress. “And for the last fifty years,” he wrote, “the Left has been doing everything in its power to sue them, legislate against their interests, mock them in the media, isolate them as idiosyncratic, and publicly humiliate their traditions in order to make them, at best, irrelevant to America’s future growth.” In alienating the South, Democrats ceded the region to Republican strategists, who took the trouble to cater to its culture. Webb, who had been a nominal Democrat in his youth, knew this from personal experience. According to Robert Timberg’s book “The Nightingale’s Song,” Webb was recruited into the Reagan Administration by a Republican official who had once heard him being interviewed on the radio. The interviewer, talking to Webb about “Fields of Fire,” mentioned that Jane Fonda was in town and asked Webb whether he might wish to meet her. “Jane Fonda can kiss my ass,” Webb replied. “I wouldn’t go across the street to watch her slit her wrist.” The Republican official, John Herrington, who later became Reagan’s personnel chief, championed Webb’s appointment, in 1984, as Reagan’s Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs and, in 1987, as Secretary of the Navy.

As bad as that sounds to me, it’s this passage that best illustrates why I’ve always been so quesy about supporting Webb:

When Webb, debilitated by shrapnel wounds received in an action that earned him the Navy Cross, was forced to retire from the military, he enrolled at the Georgetown University Law Center, and stepped directly into the culture divide. He hated his time at Georgetown, largely because of his encounter with an attitude that caught him wholly unaware. It seemed to him that many of his classmates had been untouched by Vietnam (except for a gain in self-regard, accrued from opposition to what they deemed an immoral war). Webb concluded that they not only had figured out ways to avoid the risk and sacrifice of military service but had convinced themselves, as they proceeded along their education and career tracks, that theirs was the true heroism of the time. Inspired by his rage, he decided to write “Fields of Fire,” which included a series of withering cameo portrayals of Ivy League graduates who worked the system to avoid service. “Some day he will write speeches for great politicians,” he wrote of one character. “Tim Forbes will confess his boondoggle, and we will admire his honesty. He only did what everybody else was doing.” Webb could recite the minuscule number of men killed in Vietnam who, by his count, had matriculated at the élite colleges (Harvard, twelve; Princeton, six; M.I.T., two) compared with the vast numbers from public schools.

Webb returned to the subject repeatedly in his writing over the next twenty-five years, until he produced what amounted to his own ethnology. He saw himself as a creature of a pervasive but nearly invisible Scots-Irish subculture, descended from the warrior clans of Ulster who migrated to North America in large numbers in the eighteenth century. They came to live mostly in the Appalachian South—a stubborn, bellicose people, fiercely individualistic and egalitarian. They settled the frontiers, invented country music, and fostered a truly native form of American democracy. Most important, they bore the brunt of fight-ing the nation’s wars. In 2004, Webb published “Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America.” He had found, he believed, the DNA of red-state America.

One of the things that drives me craziest about the generally accepted history of the Vietnam War era is that those who managed to stay out of the military simply got their deferments and partied hardy while those who couldn’t afford to go to college spilled their blood and guts in heroic combat. The “Tim Forbes” Webb created in his novel (BTW, “Forbes” is a Scottish name, maybe not all of you were “born fighting” and maybe that’s a good thing) may have been more than a little self-important, but he and countless thousands of others his age (most of whom were not privileged and wealthy, a hell of a lot of them were barely scrapping by financially) didn’t sit back and let the peasants fight the war they avoided, they took to the streets and tried to stop it. In a great many instances, they took very public stands that put their futures in jeopardy. And having the full force of the National Security State in the hands of such ruthless men as Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon come down on you could be a very unpleasant experience. And I’m sorry, but avoiding military service and protesting that war was a more honorable choice than fighting it. BTW, I have six cousins who were prime draft bait during the Vietnam years (born 1948-52), they all came from reactionary, Goldwater-voting blue-collar families (their dads were an assembly line worker, a truck driver, and a NYC cop, respectively), and not a single one of them got drafted in spite of the fact that only two managed to graduate college in four years and one of them graduated in May 1970 at a time when he was still single. It wasn’t just the rich and the middle class that managed to avoid getting drafted, a hell of a lot of working class kids did too.

As to Webb’s philoscots-irish views, this son of an Irish immigrant detects something in that DNA that speaks very poorly of Webb and the people he affects to celebrate, i.e. nativist sentiments that have
been used to stoke bigotry towards anyone considered outsiders, such as more recent arrivals, but also towards African-Americans who can trace their ancestry in this country as far back as Webb can, and Native Americans whose roots go back much farther. To counter Webb’s simplistic rendering of US history, here’s an even more simplistic bromide – your people may have built this country Jimbo, but the rest of us improved it. So take your Scots-Irish chauvinism and cram it up your Ulster, a place you improved by leaving it (I’ve been there and seen the ones who didn’t leave and a miserable lot of brain-dead bigots they are).

I live in Virginia, and have been getting progressively more despondent as Election Day approaches. I am really going to have to ask myself if I hate George Allen enough to vote for Webb. As of now, the answer is “Yes,” but how likely is it that Webb will be satisfied with spending the rest of his working life in the US Senate? If he does win, I’d be willing to bet anything that he’ll run for President, possibly as early as 2008, which means we may have our own John McCain to run against the Republican one. Jesus, what kind of a choice is that?

9. JJB - 27 October 2006


Forgot to post a link to that New Yorker article.

10. D. Throat - 27 October 2006

Are you sure it is not Rahm and Schumer slipping this to the press….Webb sounds like their kind of guy…

11. marisacat - 27 October 2006

I think they are tryihg to make him more popular in the Richmond Roanoke areas.

IIRC Pryor has done edgy pieces before that served the Democrats in convoluted ways and appeared in The New Yorker.

I think he did the article on Casey and how the party was muscling the pro choice and old line pro choice orgs in PA. A few months ago and never online.

UGH. The party has done itself no favors with many of their recruits this year. The former Repubs, the pro lifers, the self funders (several of whom are former Repubs).

For instance, Reynolds may well win in NY state. Davis, former Repub and self funder, can hardly be bothered to campaign.

12. bayprairie - 27 October 2006

I got Mr. James H. Webb’s countra mewsic rat cheer.

Wikipedia states that

Vernon Dalhart was the first country singer to have a nationwide hit (May 1924, with “The Wreck of Old ’97“).

Mr James H. Webb’s political career might just end up similarly to the train wreck described in that song.

It’s a mighty rough road from Lynchburg to Danville,
And the lie was a three-mile grade,
It was on that grade that he lost his air brakes,
You see what a jump that she made.

He was going down the grade making 90 miles an hour,
When his whistle broke into a SCREEEEEEEAAAAAMMMMMMMMM
he was found in that wreck with his hand on the throttle,
Scalded to death by the steam.

13. NYCee - 27 October 2006

Re: Webb’s appearance. He always appears very, very TIGHTLY wound to me.

14. JJB - 27 October 2006


Yes, and McCain seems that way to me too.

Lots of repressed rage in those two.

15. NYCee - 27 October 2006

Was talking to former Tasini coordinator about xyz – One thing he said was how he has been volunteering for John Hall, a very progressive D candidate (challenging encumbent Sue Kelly, R), who Tasini strongly supports. He has been involved in and observing the local scene a lot and says it looks good for Dems in NY. He also said his take is that the NY Dem machine doesnt particularly want the Dems to take the state senate (too long under Republican control, with Dem assembly but icky pro-biz, corrupt Shelley Silver is the leader) because then they would have to show their stuff, ie, the difference btw themselves and the GOP, and it behooves the Dem leadership/establishmentarians to keep their jobs and continue carping around the edges of the status quo, which they largely support. He cited a strong progressive candidate for state senate, Andrea Stewart-Cousins, who he said has not been as strongly supported as she should be.

I have been rather remiss in involvement in the details of local races. (I will do some phone banking, perhaps for Cousins.) But I couldnt help but note that this sort of holding back that he cited, in a way that keeps Republicans in power, sounds similar to what has been discussed here about the national congressional Dem scene.

16. marisacat - 27 October 2006

He also said his take is that the NY Dem machine doesnt particularly want the Dems to take the state senate (too long under Republican control, with Dem assembly but icky pro-biz, corrupt Shelley Silver is the leader) because then they would have to show their stuff, ie, the difference btw themselves and the GOP, and it behooves the Dem leadership/establishmentarians to keep their jobs and continue carping around the edges of the status quo, which they largely support…

Same thng out here.

Dems happy to be BetaPoodles. Sure are not Alpha.

Alpha would be the California NURSES. More balls than the damned Dems.

Arnold has the big pwoerful CTA, California Teaches soft pedaling for him…

17. NYCee - 27 October 2006

And oh, I so love DEMOCRAT(???!!!) Ben Nelson sounding the clarion call for a centrist stampede. Glue that fucker Ben Nelson atop a stack of his toxic rw votes/positions, roll him onto the political board, between left and right, and it defies the law of physics that he ends up anywhere near the center. It is the progressives who have been sidelined, yet he wants to wrest power back from us? Lol.

This brings to mind when the media confidently hold up some antiBush position du jour on the war as having cred because: “this is not being said by the far left, mind you!” (Insert knowing guffaw, even if not issued forth.) Mr./s. X is a longtime CONSERVATIVE, is a longtime REPUBLICAN, is a CENTRIST!” (Ahhh, I am now thoroughly innoculated against charges of citing lefty peaceniks) And the same sort of skewing occurs by Democrats when they cite McCain, hide behind his skirts. Or other GOPpers. If he says it, or Lindsay Graham or John Warner (The Rooster… Foghorn Leghorn?), then its okay for us! We aint NO fringe leftists, no suh, no suhree! Lindsay Graham and John McCain will protect our rights (Probably what gave so many of them the sense that they had the necessary cover to vote for that abominable torture bill) Really, it is the eagerness you see/hear when they hold up these people as contrasted with the way they avoid the common sense messages/positions that have long been out there by their own progressives that chafes.

Speaking of Chafes…

To more accurately define the center, Id say Linc Chafee would be it. He voted for the medicare bill, he voted for the bankruptcy bill, but he voted against the Iraq war, against Alito, against the Bush tax cuts, against the “partial-birth” abortion ban, and against the motherfucking torture-habeas corpus killer bill (he also votes pro environment and education, iirc)… One cannot say the same about Nelson, who voted for all of those things. One cannot say the same about McCain, who voted for too many of them.

Defining a centrist is hard enough, but our political/media establishment bungles it – purposely – big time, by skewing it so blatantly to the Right. Makes me kuhrazy.

They cannot help but be sloppy about it, too, by the very nature of the inconvenient facts. They will call someone like Nelson “very conservative” and then in the next sentence he’s back with the “moderates” and “centrists.”

18. NYCee - 27 October 2006

Yup. They seemed to have led the charge against Arnold, the nurses. And his poll numbers sank so low. What turned the tide for him with the public? That he was “working” nicely with the legislature (again, the corrupt Ds in there that you reference), did that burnish his image once again? And/or was it something/s practical he did that benefitted the public ?

Really though, the public is so malleable. I mean, even if he did start to toe a more people-friendly line, got results, why would people go back for more from someone who showed himself to be so callous and out of touch with their needs from the get-go? Someone who had to be pushed into line? Why not go with a more reliable progressive leader?

19. NYCee - 27 October 2006

Wonder if Armando will be driving the blogosphere to press for Nelson as senate majority leader… 🙂

After all, Nelson is so for the lunch pail crowd… Armando says. He may vote against choice or habeas corpus, but stalwart and shoulder to shoulder with Teddy Kennedy he will forge the path for the underserved masses!

Jesus Christ. Such complete nuttery everywhere you look.

20. Arcturus - 27 October 2006

did you see the story about how Jerry Brown is now snuggling up to Ahnold?

the nurses have really been THE opposition party in CA – period.

Seth Sandronsky, from Sac here, has written some good pieces on ’em – appearing in Counterpunch & elsewhere

& Nycee, even tho Angelides has some nice-sounding policy positions, he’s not about to go out on any progressive limb. certainly doesn’t deserve the brand-labelhe’s an old-time pro-biz, party machine hack who’s been positioning himself for this run for years. the ‘brighter-shade-of-Gray’ tag isn’t all that far off . . .

but yea, it’s disheartening to see the public bending over again for AS

21. marisacat - 27 October 2006

Geesh I just saw a campaign commercial run by the Repub running against Ben NElson. He shoots really BIG GAME in Africa.

Like Giraffe. For instance.

Lordy. Seemed Nelson bagged one of everything. It was a list of about 12, all big game. I assume on one of thsoe latter day Great White Hunter safaris.

Animals bagged and boxed in for the big bad daddy hunter.

LOL well maybe more will dribble out on that. And who paid for the trip too…

22. NYCee - 27 October 2006


Yes, but McCain masks his better. Or it coexists with another, softer side of himself. Webb seems incapable of, and probably disinterested in, portraying himself as a little looser and warmer. I think he totally embraces the tough guy persona, well fueled by that chip (boulder) on his shoulder to which your excerpts speak. It’s not hard to imagine a guy like him hating the Iraq war mostly because of what it does to our military functioning/prestige worldwide, more than anything.

I feel yer pain re yer vote quandry, too (Allen or Webb). Im voting the Green, as Ive already said here (and on DK) not Hillary, but her race isnt close. It is a conundrum. If it were close, I dont think I am yet to the point where I would say, okay, I am ready to unhinge the gates of hell, ie, help make us GOP (Allen sort of GOP, too, not Bloomberg) by voting the Green.

However, I can understand such thinking, can imagine being at the point of saying, hey, if this is what the people of my state have come to… if they are really tempted to still go with this line of governance (???), keep pushing it further, then we are at the point where we must let their nasty will be done. No other education but the one forged in hell will get thru to them and give us any hope of breaking thru to the other side. Last hope, hail mary for a phoenix from the ashes sort of thing.

23. NYCee - 27 October 2006

Oh god. Sick. Safari Ben. Just googled, there is a lot about it.

Now Nebraska, Nelson’s “Dem” hunting ground, is a state where I would definitely vote a write in for X progressive of my choice du jour, and let the senate seat go to the fucking LABELLED Republican. That is such a farce. I would never vote Nelson. That state is looney tunes… that is the best “Dem” they can get?

Talk about endangered species!

24. NYCee - 27 October 2006

Yes, it was controversial because he was “bagging” endangered species. Got a lot of flack from Nebraskans, it seems, which is why his opponent is using it. Too bad he isnt a true progressive opponent who could use it to great effect to show how Nelson’s rightwing policies hurt endangered civil rights, human rights, and the masses of humans in general.

God, what sort of debates those must be. Nelson defending against his “liberal” record? LOL.

25. Arcturus - 27 October 2006

No other education but the one forged in hell …

apt description of the nat’l scene of the past 6 years

… will get thru to them and give us any hope of breaking thru to the other side

unfortunately, the dems are doing a good job defending the rear guard instead

26. NYCee - 27 October 2006


Eew. Doesnt surprise me though.

My boyfriend really liked Jerry Brown in the 92 primary, voted for him, but then we started seeing him on our TV after 2000, commenting on election 2000 or whatever and he struck us as so DRAINed of any progressive/populist fire. A real moderate machine type guy. Tired. Placating. Bohhhring.

27. marisacat - 27 October 2006

A few years ago Jerry Brown said the Dems were ‘no longer the party of black people’.

The wording (and I may be slightly off) was such a mix of announcement (and a convoluted lie) and reinforcement of Right WIng talking points, that it was breathtaking.

The Dems worked for decades in many areas to undercut what advances had been made.

I mean, if anyone could not see thru the triple-twisted message of Moynihan’s “benign neglect” they were not listening.

And remember he imported Hillareeeeeeeeeeeee to the NY market.

So much free trade, [sigh]… hard to keep up.. 😉

28. NYCee - 27 October 2006

PS – arc …

As for angelides, I am not that up on him, but gathered that he was a more reliable progressive from what I picked up from the locals here. He didnt impress me as having fire in the belly when I saw snatches of the debate, but better than Arnold, certainly.

29. marisacat - 27 October 2006

well having made it out of a Dixiecrat family (my English grandfather marryng my Southern grandmother adulterated the Dixie-ness – he was a genuine liberal, wrote on – and was supportive of – social welfare changes in Europe for the Eastern papers, Baltimore, Phildephia, Trenton and the NYTimes) I just will not go back.

I cannot do it. But everyone owns their vote.

Honestly I think mcCain is just as tightly wound as Webb, in fact more so. He drips blood from his mouth when he speaks of the war. He was pusing War with N Korea at the “do” with Tweety on Friday at Iowa State. It was HORRIFYING.

The ONLY thing Webb got was not to do THIS war. Quite the haters, both of them. And they hate women.

Another thing I can skip.

30. NYCee - 27 October 2006

Oh, I didnt say McCain was less dangerous, just less tightly wound overall. I said he has that side, whereas Webb seems wound tight every time Ive seen him. From what I know of the two of them, I think McCain is more dangerous, thus far, but he portrays a side that is more appealing, fuzzier around the edges, than Webb. Hell, Ted Bundy had an appealing side! (He even dabbled in politics.)

31. NYCee - 27 October 2006

Missed that Tweety appearance, but I have long been banging the drum that McCain is indeed a dangerous man. I too find him horrifying. And was never wooed. Not in the least.

32. marisacat - 27 October 2006

This is just loaded iwth info on the Republican GOTV for FL. It is in the St Petersburg Times, which def leans other than Republican, toward the Dems.

This is the last segment of the article…

The Republican voter turnout machine started taking shape when Democrats still controlled Tallahassee. In the early 1990s, former state GOP chairman Tom Slade was so impressed with a plan by an Escambia County Republican activist and former NASA engineer to compile voter information that Slade started investing heavily in building an extensive database. That system has improved exponentially with the “Voter Vault.”

After the virtually tied 2000 election in Florida, Republicans in the state and nationally concentrated on building up their door-to-door voter turnout operation and created the “72-hour program” to mobilize voters in the final days of the campaign. That helped Jeb Bush trounce Bill McBride by 13 percentage points in 2002.

In 2004, Democrats flooding early voting sites helped mitigate the GOP advantage in absentee ballots. But the superior Election Day turnout operation helped President Bush win Florida by nearly 400,000 votes. This year, unlike 2002 and 2004, Florida Democrats don’t have millions of dollars from the national party and outside groups to bolster their get-out-the-vote effort.

What they do have is the hope that Republican gubernatorial candidate Crist’s moderate stances on social issues will leave many evangelical voters at home, making it the worst climate for Republicans in years.

“There are a lot of people who will be driven to the polls by the Republican machine who are not necessarily going to vote the way the Republicans think they’re going to vote,” said Kirk Wagar, a Miami lawyer and top Democratic fundraiser.

Perhaps, but even many Democratic strategists acknowledge the most reliable polls can be off-base because of the superior Republican turnout operation. In the September primary, nearly 130,000 more Republicans voted than Democrats.

“I have said from the start we have to go in with a two- or three-point lead to make up for their turnout advantage,” said Jeff Garcia, campaign manager for Democratic attorney general candidate Walter “Skip” Campbell, who is in a tight race with Republican Bill McCollum.

Across Florida, anxious Republican campaign strategists are breathing easier as they receive reports on how many Republicans and Democrats already have voted by absentee ballot.

Said Republican consultant Todd Harris, who is working on Joe Negron’s campaign to succeed Mark Foley in Congress: “There are going to be a lot of Republicans in tight races in Florida who get carried across the finish line because of decisions that were made years ago about building the machine.”

33. marisacat - 27 October 2006

Some of th darkest stories surface in the AZ family McCain married into … I have a deadly link tucked away… see if I can find it.

34. colleen - 27 October 2006

“Wonder if Armando will be driving the blogosphere to press for Nelson as senate majority leader…”

It’s beginning to appear that Kos’s ‘centrist’ lieutenants don’t have enough followers to make the driving attempt worth the while.

35. marisacat - 27 October 2006

Here: McCain

36. NYCee - 27 October 2006

And Sensenbrenner turned off the mics and shut off the lights…

Matt Taibbi has an article in Rolling Stone – The Worst Congress Ever: How our national legislature has become a stable of thieves and perverts — in five easy steps

Here is an excerpt from his interview on Democracy Now – link –

Taibi’s description of the horrendous state of the Hill under GOP control is really a nightmare. Ugh. They “worked” 219 days and some of those days were the equivalent of a break at Walmart. 1,000 subpoenas under Clinton, zero under Bush. They totally shut out the Dems (who should have been screaming about it on the media constantly, it is so beyond) I mean, stories like this:

[… ]What they’ll do is they’ll have — by law, they have to have one conference that includes Democrats. They’ll have a five-minute meeting, where the Democrats are there. They’ll take a picture, and then they’ll kick the Democrats out, and they’ll hold the real meeting later, and they won’t tell the Democrats where it is. And you get this situation that results — it’s really like, you know, an elementary school thing, where they won’t tell the Democrats where it is, so the Democratic minority member will have to go around Congress literally searching for the conference, knocking on doors, saying, “Are you inside?”

AMY GOODMAN: Give us an example.

MATT TAIBBI: There was a famous example, where the Ways and Means Committee, chaired by Bill Thomas, the congressman from California, he didn’t tell the ranking minority member, who was Charlie Rangel here from New York, he didn’t tell him where the conference was, and Rangel went around the Congress looking for this conference, knocking on doors, and he finally finds it. He knocks on the door, and the Republicans hid behind the door, pretending that they weren’t inside, literally, like little kids. They hid in there. You know, one congressional aide said it was like the old SNL skit, “Land Shark,” where Charlie Rangel was the land shark, the Republicans wouldn’t open the door.

They finally opened it, and Thomas says to Rangel, he says, “Sorry, this is only for the coalition of the willing,” and he basically kicked Rangel out of the room — actually, I’m sorry, they packed up their stuff, and they left, and they held the conference someplace else. And this kind of stuff happens at every level, at every stage of the congressional process now. So, everywhere where you used to have meetings between the two parties, where they would work things out, the Republicans just disallow participation by the Democrats.

37. NYCee - 27 October 2006

DN also has an Israeli soldier speaking on the torture, maltreatment of Palestinians… just listening to it now. You know, Israel, the country McCain goes out of his way to gushingly hold up as a country that does NOT torture when he was portraying himself as Mr Ethical on torture. Ha. Torture actually used to be legal in Israel. Now it is just beyond the sunlight. Ours is… what… partly sunny? And its just fine with McCain. His shining contribution. What a dissembler he is.

38. marisacat - 27 October 2006

– move to Israel and sit shiva for America…

McCain too.

39. TustonDAZ - 27 October 2006

The one bright spot is that McCain sucks from the podium…

40. marisacat - 27 October 2006

So does Hillareeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

As did Kerry. And a few others.

41. TustonDAZ - 27 October 2006

Yeah they do. But Obama the Anti-Christ, well some people buy that mushy shit and think its clear headed and courageous…

Unity 08: why wait for the eschaton?

42. marisacat - 27 October 2006

yeah I expect “Unity 08” to raise its mushy head.

I mean “civility” and “working across the aisle” and “extreme polarisation” — what the fuck do they expect when the country is DRIVEN by propaganda, all sides, for decades AND then WARS?? —- can quite naturally lead to some very conservative, white male (or the alternate neutered woman) “Unity Ticket”.

And be utter bullshit.

I mean I have SO MUCH FAITH in Jerry Rafshoon, Ham Jordan, Doug Bailey (of National Journal and a Ford communications guy) and so on.

43. Madman in the Marketplace - 27 October 2006

He shoots really BIG GAME in Africa.

and here I thought I couldn’t despise that fucker any more than I already do, but now …

44. Madman in the Marketplace - 27 October 2006

Webb … ugh … and his insistence that “his” people, southern Scots-Irish, are somehow the highest and noblest form of American, I refer back to a piece from January by Joe Bageant:

Even as this is being written we may safely assume some of my tribe of mutt people are stifling the screams of captives in America’s secret “black site” prisons across the planet. Or on a more mundane scale of cruelty (according to CBS footage) kicking hundreds of chickens to death every day at the Pilgrim’s Pride plant in Wardensville, West Virginia, just up the road from where I am writing this. Or consider the image of Matthew Shepard’s body twisted on that Wyoming fence. All these are our handiwork. We the mutt faced sons and daughters of the republic. Born to kick your chicken breast meat to death for you in the darkest, most dismal corners of our great land, born to kill and be killed in stock car races, drunken domestic rows, and of course in the desert dusty back streets at the edges of the empire. Middle class urban liberals may never claim us as brothers, much less willing servants, but as they say in prison, we are your meat. We do your bidding. Your refusal to admit that we do your dirty work for you, not to mention the international smackdowns and muggings for the republic — from which you benefit more materially than we ever will — makes it no less true.

Literally from birth, we get plenty of conditioning to kill those gooks and sand monkeys and whoever else needs killing at any particular moment in history according to our leadership. Like most cracker kids in my generation, from the time I could walk I played games in which I pretended to (practiced for) killing — Japs, Indians, Germans, Koreans, Africans Zulus (as seen in the movies Zulu and Uhuru!) variously playing the role of U.S. cavalry, Vikings a la Kirk Douglas, World War II GIs, colonial soldiers, and of course Confederate soldiers. As little white cracklets we played with plastic army men that we tortured by flame, firecracker, burning rivulets of gasoline, kerosene or lighter fluid. And if atomic bombing was called for, M-80s and ash cans. We went to sleep dreaming of the screams of the evil brutes we had smitten that day, all those slant eyed and swasticated enemies of democracy and our way of life. Later as post-cracklets in high school we rode around in cars looking to fight anyone who was different, the “other,” be they black, brown, or simply from another school or county. As young men we brawled at dances, parties or simply while staring at one another bored and drunk. We bashed each over women, less-than weight bags of dope, money owed and alleged insult to honor, wife, mother or model of car — Ford versus Chevy. In other words, all of white trash culture’s noblest causes. With the “fighting tradition” of Scots Irish behind us, we smashed upon each other ceaselessly in trailer court and tavern, night and day in rain and summer heat until finally, we reach our mid-fifties and lose our enthusiasm (not to mention stamina) for that most venerated of borderer sports.

Bageant knows of which he speaks, since he has the stones to face what his and Webb’s people REALLY represent.

45. Madman in the Marketplace - 27 October 2006

Oh, and the Dems and their love/hate relationship with American blacks:

Democrats Fear Disillusionment in Black Voters

Democrats’ worries are backed up by a Pew Research Center report that found that blacks were twice as likely now than they were in 2004 to say they had little or no confidence in the voting system, rising to 29 percent from 15 percent.

And more than three times as many blacks as whites — 29 percent versus 8 percent — say they do not believe that their vote will be accurately tallied.

Voting experts say the disillusionment is the cumulative effect of election problems in 2000 and 2004, and a reaction to new identification and voter registration laws.

And of course, the disillusionment is ALSO the result of a Democratic Party that didn’t give a shit about FIGHTING for their votes. People stood for hours in the rain for John the Gigolo and he couldn’t WAIT to roll over and fly to Europe.

But Saleemah Affoul of Milwaukee, for one, is not so sure. Like many other black people in her neighborhood, Ms. Affoul said she was convinced that no matter how she voted, it would not be counted fairly.

“I do think the system is rigged,” she said. “I vote anyway because my forefathers worked too hard to win me that right. But not everyone feels that responsibility around here.”

Walking along Martin Luther King Jr. Drive in the gritty and mostly black section of Brewers Hill on the North Side of Milwaukee, Ms. Affoul said that cynicism in her neighborhood was on the rise.

She traced her own skepticism to one afternoon two months before the last presidential election when she overheard several young black men saying they were not going to vote because they feared being arrested at the polling station for their unpaid parking tickets. The neighborhood had been flooded with fliers from the Milwaukee Black Voters League, a fictitious group, saying that even minor infractions like parking tickets disqualified people from voting.

Ms. Affoul, 66, said she argued with the men but failed to convince them that they had been misinformed.

“I realized that maybe the poll tax isn’t gone after all, and that if people were willing to try that trick, they might be willing to do a lot more that I don’t even know about,” she said.

I know that part of town, and they know from hard experience that the LOCAL Dem party doesn’t give a fuck about them, even when the local police are getting away with beating black men. The party does NOTHING here about reports of Republican voter suppression, the local Republican rag goes on and on about “voter fraud” that turns up to be non-existent.

I firmly believe that most voters should tell the Dems to go fuck themselves.

46. TustonDAZ - 27 October 2006

The vomitorium is open:

What Obama represents is a possible world where partisan hackery is null and void. Obama, like The Daily Show, Colbert Report, Bill Maher, Nader, and others taps into people that aren’t happy with either party. They don’t actually trust or like Democrats or Republicans. With Obama you have a guy consciously highlighting the similarities between people rather than their differences. What could a partisan blog have to gain from a political landscape shaped in that way?

Kos plant “common cents”

Not rec’d yet, (131 comments at this point) but I’m willin’ to bet whomever the author is he’s got another pen name we all know better…

47. marisacat - 27 October 2006

oh that is such tired gush. Mush. SLush.

Daily Kos Diarists:



have some pride. LOL. Or hell, give it a rest and go hump a chair leg.

48. marisacat - 27 October 2006

LOL As in:

The policies of the past – the corporate-friendly DLC’s kowtowing to entrenched interests and toeing the line of the “moderate hawks” in congress and in the think tanks, the “Swing State” focus, and general timidity in both electoral and political/policy fights have been shown to be morally, strategically and tactically bankrupt.

Progressive losses over the last 20 years can, and should, be laid on the shoulders of timid, cowardly, and dishonest operatives who have been “going along to get along” for far too long.

Aww. Not ”policies of the past”. Not at all. No no… those people are the Leadership of the party…

Stop selling rotted lettuce from the Blahgger Ghetto.

Hillareeeeeeeeee, Warner, Biden, Bayh, Vilsack, … and all the rest. Who are ALL DLC. Add Rahm.

Many a meet and greet coming up… Gotta laugh, meet a pol and melt. They know chumps when see them.

49. TustonDAZ - 27 October 2006

I’d love to go to a meet up and talk to Warner, Biden, Bayh, Hillaree Obama or any of “them”.
Although I’m pretty certain they wouldn’t like what I have to say and I probably don’t need anymore attention from the feds (i’ve heard that my showdown with WI-Vod over the surveillance towers has put my name in lights down here)

50. Medley - 27 October 2006

Oh god – Allen v. Webb. I have to vote in this freakin’ election. Today I posted that I would vote for Webb. I guess. For whatever slim reed of non-batshittery a Democratic Senate might enable…

But god damn – it is almost no choice at all. The Post reported this morning that Webb even opposed Maya Lin’s design for the Vietnam memorial. The dude has Issues…

51. marisacat - 27 October 2006

… and then he married an Asian woman.

Latter day Confederate. And a hater.

52. Madman in the Marketplace - 27 October 2006

anybody who voted against Lin’s design has no soul.

53. bayprairie - 28 October 2006

this election i plan on keeping things simple.

i’m going to vote my conscience.

James H. Webb is FUCKING lucky i don’t live in virginia.

54. TustonDAZ - 28 October 2006

I went to the ‘Nam memorial with my Dad shortly after it opened and it was the only time I’ve ever seen him cry.

Webb definetely has no soul; If a hunk of black rock can make a man as famously taciturn as my father weep, it is indeed a powerful testament.

55. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 October 2006

it’s a stunning work of art, of insight … it’s just too bad that so many Americans need their heroic myths, and that they had to put those ugly, clunky statues at one end of it. You’re cast down into this well of loss, then when you come back up BAM … “LOOK kids, war is HEROIC”.

My head nearly exploded w/ the cognitive dissonance of it.

56. colleen - 28 October 2006

Not rec’d yet, (131 comments at this point) but I’m willin’ to bet whomever the author is he’s got another pen name we all know better…

Thanks for that link which I found drinking my AM coffee and thus read the thread.
Pure ‘centrism’ in it’s most toxic and manipulative form. It’s like Petey sobered up or the horrible, horrible men who run TNH and DK managed to find someone who can write without displaying his personality dosorders as blatantly as, say, Dana or RonK or MB. I particularly enjoyed the point in the now 300+ thread where common cents (how friggin populist of him) said “I love all you guys” after insulting their character and ideology repeatedly and at length and then received a couple of ‘4’s’.
Wouldn’t it be funny if, having bullied and abused the actual leftists to the point where they don’t want to play anymore, the hyper partisan self described ‘pragmatist’ dems of DK and TNH were forced into that despised role?

57. TustonDAZ - 28 October 2006

Yeah, it is distinctly different than any of the other monuments and ya just gotta luv the big white phallus hovering above it all, letting us know what the score is…

58. TustonDAZ - 28 October 2006

BTW There’s an excellent work of fiction about a southern “white trash” family comming to terms with the ‘Nam and the Wall plays a major part in the story:

Powell’s books: “In Country” by Bobby Ann Mason

59. bayprairie - 28 October 2006

webb served on the planning commission for the three soldiers monument, iirc was instrumental in it’s acceptance (ramming it through), and at one time kept a miniature of it on his desk.

probably still does. his religion seems to be marine tradition.

republican trojan horse.

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