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Repost :: Marisacat :: 6 May 2006: “remarkable collection of angels on one stage reading their poetry” 4 February 2007

Posted by marisacat in California / Pacific Coast, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, la vie en rose, San Francisco, WAR!.

“remarkable collection of angels on one stage reading their poetry” 6 May 2006

                         First reading of HOWL, Jack Kerouac, left, Allen to the right.

From the post card sent to announce the first reading of Howl:


Philip Lamantia reading mss. of late John
Hoffman– Mike McClure, Allen Ginsberg,
Gary Snyder & Phil Whalen–all sharp new
straightforward writing– remarkable coll-
ection of angels on one stage reading
their poetry.  No charge, small collection
for wine, and postcards. Charming event.

Kenneth Rexroth, M.C.

8 PM Friday Night October 7,1955

6 Gallery 3119 Fillmore St.
San Fran

 In a few words it evokes the small sweetness, and inspired exuberance, that was San Francisco in the Fifties.  6 Gallery was just down the hill from where I have lived nearly all of my life, as a native born San Franciscan. 

There is a not uninteresting recollection of that day, of Allen and Howl, in the NYT today.  This passage caught at me:

‘Ginsberg wrote “Howl” in San Francisco and Berkeley; he read the long first section in public for the first time in San Francisco in 1955, and the whole of the poem for the first time in Berkeley the next year.

All sorts of divisions, exclusions, restrictive manners and deferences that were second nature in the East were missing in the Bay Area. If the primary terrain of the poem is New York City, the freedom one could find in California in the 50’s is crucial to the air that blows through the dank rooms of “Howl,” blowing all the way back to New York — […]

The America that gets changed in “The Poem That Changed America” is a Steinberg map, with San Francisco as far away as Tangier. 

 The poem, like a great river, may find its rise in NYC, but I would defy anyone not to see it is a song, a howling song, of America. 

For me, a child that my Manhattanite mother  – who was both a Northerner and a Southerner – vowed to raise as neither an Easterner nor a Westerner, for that child of San Francisco, there is heart-knocking beauty in the close of Allen’s song:

I’m with you in Rockland
where we wake up electrified out of the coma
by our own souls’ airplanes roaring over the
roof they’ve come to drop angelic bombs the
hospital illuminates itself imaginary walls collapse
O skinny legions run outside O starry
spangled shock of mercy the eternal war is
here O victory forget your underwear we’re free
I’m with you in Rockland
in my dreams you walk dripping from a sea-
journey on the highway across America in tears
to the door of my cottage in the Western night

 From Michael McClure:

“HOWL was the trigger (for the Sixties) Afterwards none of us could step back and say, ‘I didn’t mean it.’ It was just too fuckin frightening out there. . .I think Allen Ginsberg standing up there reading – putting himself on the line – was one of the two bravest things I’ve ever seen. Remember, it was ’55. People had crew cuts, and they looked at you like you were misplaced cannon fodder. The country was being run by Luce publications. It was a dangerous, cold, ugly time, and it was scary. . .

In all our memories no one had been so outspoken in poetry before. We had gone beyond a point of no return. None of us wanted to go back to the grey, chill, militaristic silence, to the intellectual void – to the land without poetry – to the spiritual drabness. We wanted to make it new and we wanted to invent it and the process of it as we went into it. We wanted voice and we wanted vision.”

From “Storming Heaven” by Jay Stevens:

On hand for his debut were Kerouac and Cassady, the former distinguishable as the man who was passing around the big jugs of Burgundy wine, while the latter was the source of the punctuating stream of Wows! Yeses! and Go, Go, Gos! that greeted each reader. Ginsberg read nex to last. Until this moment his vocation as a poet had been more wishful living than artistic fact. What poems he had written were short epigrammatic lyrics in the style of William Carlos Williams. But tonight he wasn’t going to bother with his old work. Instead he was going to read the poem that had come to him through the mediation of dexedrine and peyote, a massive, tumultuouos thing called Howl, which began

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed
by madness, starving, hysterical, naked
dragging themselves through the negro streets at
dawn looking for an angry fix.

From Steve Silberman, from How Beat Happened:

One afternoon in late July of 1955, Ginsberg wrote a line in his journal, “I saw the best mind angel-headed hipster damned,” thinking of his friend Carl Solomon, who had survived a gauntlet of insulin shock treatments at the New York Psychiatric Institute. A week or so later, Ginsberg sat down in his apartment to jam at his typewriter.

I sat idly at my desk by the first floor window facing Montgomery Street’s slope to gay Broadway — only a few blocks from City Lights literary paperback bookshop. I had a secondhand typewriter, some cheap scratch paper. I began typing, not with the idea of writing a formal poem, but stating my imaginative sympathies, whatever they were worth. As my loves were impractical and my thoughts relatively unworldly, I had nothing to gain, only the pleasure of enjoying on paper those sympathies most intimate to myself and most awkward in the great world of family, formal education, business and current literature.

Ginsberg expanded on the line from his journal, changing it to a second draft of the best-known line in 20th Century poetry:

“I saw the best minds of my generation/ generation destroyed by madness/ starving mystical naked.”

Ginsberg continued for seven single-spaced pages. The lines were short, Williams-like, but the phrases already soared like the Charlie Parker riffs the poet had in mind as he typed.

“I knew Kerouac would hear the sound,” said Ginsberg later.

                 Lawrence Ferlinghetti, City Lights Bookstore on Columbus

When ever I pull out Howl, or recollections of the era, or remember being set down on the floor at Ferlinghetti’s City Lights to play while Mother looked for new books, or an afternoon ice cream with Papa at Enrico’s on Broadway – evocative of cool and quiet Italian restarants, inside away from the Italian sun… somehow that was managed in grey and foggy San Francisco….  or think back to October afternoons at the Old Spaghetti Factory, with its small garden and fig trees… I am always astonished that people seek to define and deny other people. 

The great bugaboo, the fearsome and feared “other” is yourself.



1. arcturus1 - 4 February 2007

from something i’ve been woking on – if you’d like a pleasant diversion, this panel talk is highly rec’d – Allen intro’s & takes part in the discussion – & talks a bit about the 6 gallery reading, kerouac, jazz, his own early exposure to the music, words & jazz, & much more:


2. arcturus1 - 4 February 2007

(meant to add that I hear City Arts did a horrific, santized hatch-job 50th anniversary ‘tribute’ at Herbst Theater – can’t remember who wrote on it – heard more about it on one of Jack Foley’s shows

3. marisacat - 4 February 2007

arcturus… thanks very much for the link.

Yes I am sure the City did a near spineless job of it. And Herbst Theatre is so delightful… a true reading of and observation of Howl would ahve been nice in that venue.

4. arcturus1 - 4 February 2007

he posted it 🙂


here’s a snippet:

The event at Herbst Theater was unfortunately more like the embalming of “Howl” than like its revivification. There was certainly no mention of “drugs”—even though drugs (heroin and peyote in addition to marijuana) were an important aspect of the early work of both Lamantia and McClure, who were celebrated along with Ginsberg. Beat historian Ann Charters attended the first complete reading of “Howl” in March, 1956 in Berkeley—the first attempt to “repeat” the Six Gallery reading—and remarked to me in an interview that, while she was impressed with the poetry of Ginsberg, Whalen, Snyder, and McClure, she was “unnerved by the drunken wildness of their friends in the audience and Robert LaVigne’s drawings of Orlovsky [her date for the evening] making love with Ginsberg.” Robert LaVigne corrected Charters’ remark—Ginsberg’s partner in the drawings was not Peter Orlovsky but someone else—but wildness, nakedness, drunkenness, and eroticism were all aspects of what the Six Poets at the Six Gallery were doing. Like Ginsberg’s poem, the event was meant to shock. It was certainly not meant to assure a city’s bourgeoisie that Great Literature continued to be produced within city limits. The audience at Herbst Theater tittered when mention was made of U.S. Customs Officer Chester McPhee’s opinion that “Howl” was “obscene,” but none of the poem’s genuine and deliberate obscenities—imagination’s grenades hurled at propriety—were present in Herbst Hall. The people in Ginsberg’s poem

howled on their knees in the subway and were dragged off the roof
waving genitals and manuscripts…
let themselves be fucked in the ass by saintly motorcyclists, and
screamed with joy…
blew and were blown by those human seraphim, the sailors, caresses of
Atlantic and Caribbean love….

No one was doing anything like that at Herbst Theater. Though we were shown film of Ginsberg reading from the first section of “Howl”—which was all that was read at the Six Gallery—such passages were edited out of the footage. The “secret hero” of the evening was definitely not “N.C….cocksman and Adonis of Denver” who “sweetened the snatches of a million girls trembling in the sunset” and “went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars.” At Litquake, all of the rough edges—where subversion happens—were carefully smoothed over. The organizers of Litquake undoubtedly meant well, but Jack Kerouac’s Allen Ginsberg—“Allen Ginsberg in an even wilder way”—was definitely not present. “Howl” is a wonderfully subversive poem—and part of what it is subverting is “literature,” what Ginsberg called “civilization.” Tout le reste est littérature (Verlaine)—but not “Howl.” It maintains its power not through genteel public presentation but through the secret, quasi-illicit longings of generations of readers who believe that the poem speaks precisely, and uniquely, to them. For all its fame, “Howl” is not a public poem—though it became a public poem in every possible way. As Ginsberg himself understood, “Howl” is fundamentally a “guilty pleasure”:

I thought I wouldn’t write a poem but just write what I wanted to without fear, let my imagination go, open secrecy, and scribble magic lines from my real mind—sum up my life—something I wouldn’t be able to show anybody, writ for my own soul’s ear and a few other golden ears. So the first line of Howl, “I saw the best minds etc.,” the whole first section typed out madly in one afternoon, a huge sad comedy of wild phrasing, meaningless images for the beauty of abstract poetry of mind running along making awkward combinations like Charlie Chaplin’s walk, long saxophone-like chorus lines I knew Kerouac would hear sound of—taking off from his own inspired prose line really a new poetry…Have I really been attacked for this sort of joy?

(Notes to the LP, Allen Ginsberg reads HOWL and Other Poems)

[& btw, the racial dynamics in that panel are quite revealing)

5. marisacat - 4 February 2007

oo fantastic! thanks so much arcturus… I have the panel link you posted set aside to read tonight during the night… 😉

6. arcturus1 - 4 February 2007

warning: it’s audio – you need to either d/l or stream it

7. marisacat - 4 February 2007

thanks for the tip… 😉

8. D. Throat - 5 February 2007

Oh my….Generalitito stepped in to calm the masses about OPOL diaries… everyone must scrapbook this for the historical level of hypocrisy.

by kos
Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 09:19:43 PM PST

Right off the bat, I must say that I’m tired of the OPOL firestorm. Things are getting ridiculous, and if I have to step in to take control, neither “side” will be happy with the results. The level of the invective in those diaries is really amped up, and really needs to be toned down a bit. [YES, from your home grown thugs]

But there is a bigger spillover effect from that drama that I’m seeing with some alarm — the notion that you can’t criticize a diarist. [I think all Bob Johnson said was “fuck you” “fuck you” “fuck you”] That if you don’t like something someone has written, you’re not allowed to comment, that you must simply move on to the next diary. [Lying bastard… the spillover drama is that if you do not write what you want people to write… you will send in the thugs]

And on that, I call bullshit.

Why the hell do you think Bush is such a disaster? Because no one will criticize his decisions, or offer nary a word of dissent. I’m not about to encourage similar myopia on this little corner of the internets. [Creepy sack of shit… that is just what you are doing]

When we write on the internets, we open ourselves up to criticism. We take our hits, when warranted and even when not. It’s how the game is played.

If you can’t handle someone saying you are full of shit, or you are clueless, or you don’t know what you’re talking about, or whatever, then really, this isn’t the sort of thing you should be doing.

You want a mutual admiration society, there are other places/venues to develop those. Start your own site and set your own rules. But if you write on Daily Kos, you can’t by any reasonable standard expect a free pass on anything you might write. And expecting to get one is not only ridiculous, but violates the very spirit of this place.

Of course, that doesn’t mean dissent should be ad hominem. But that’s a far cry from deeming any dissent unwelcome.

So grow a thick skin and learn to enjoy the verbal sparring that disagreement can generate. it’s a good, healthy thing to have. The alternative, on the other hand, is simply unacceptable.

9. D. Throat - 5 February 2007

DKos is becoming a useless garbage heap… (2+ / 0-)

of disinformation, innuendo, and personal attack that drowns out useful discussion and the search for knowledge and support of Democratic candidates and causes of liberal interest.

People here believe they are relevant, but the irrelevancy grows daily.

I have been here from day one and have seen the disintegration accelerate over time.

Most Democrats have never heard of this place and I am sensing they are the ones with their heads and hearts in the right place.

It makes me sad to say all this. Like too many great ventures, we humans, in our need to be so smart and so right, lose the purpose and leave ruin in the wake.

by citizen53 on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 10:56:31 PM PST

10. Miss Devore - 5 February 2007

somehow they had the skin of hemophiliacs when I posted dissent.

Hunter has another meta diary up now that should draw the usual 600+ comments which will lead to nothing changing anyway.

11. supervixen - 5 February 2007

Hunter, silly silly man, wrote:

The goal of Daily Kos is to be as big a Democratic/progressive/liberal tent as possible — the one thing that will get you in serious trouble is telling other people that if they don’t fit your issue criteria, they aren’t “liberal” enough and should leave. There’s a name for that sort of argumentation: it’s called Purity Trolling. There’s a place for it, too: it’s called Not Here. We’re looking to build a movement through numbers, and we’re looking to have real-world impact through numbers. That means we have to team up, even if there are (gasp) certain things we disagree on. Where possible.

Well, OK, if that’s what they claim is their strategy. But apparently these brilliant political brains haven’t figured out that in order to “build a movement through numbers” you don’t go around berating your fellow Democrats for small perceived infractions of The Roolz. You don’t condone insults and personal attacks disguised as “criticism”. You don’t create McCarthyesque lists of Enemies Within to be hounded off the site. You don’t ban everyone who disagrees with you. You don’t take swipes at key groups within the liberal/progressive movement – the antiwar folks, the prochoice folks, the “dirty hippies”, the feminists.

Because if you do, you’ll find that you’re alienating large numbers of progressives who vote and who donate money. These not only include the victims of your attacks, but the people who are lurking and reading all these dopey soap operas and thinking “I thought this was supposed to be a political blog, not a grade-school playground dominated by a gang of bullies”.

My impression is that Markos wants important politicians and movers-‘n’-shakers to join the discussion and be part of the community. But I hardly think that they’ll want to do that when they see the tone of these various wars. Why should they take a dip in a poisonous lake? They have much to lose and very little to gain.

12. supervixen - 5 February 2007

citizen53, whoever he or she is, is a gem:

We call ourselves liberals, tolerant to others and diversity of people and opinion. To me, that’s a joke here. It’s more and more a place to argue, insult, misrepresent and show just how boorish one can be with those of differeing views.

by citizen53 on Sun Feb 04, 2007 at 11:20:42 PM PST

There are still some decent people on DKos but they’re drifting away.

13. supervixen - 5 February 2007

Re: kos’s post about “grow a thicker skin” and “learn to enjoy the criticism”- ah yes, the “kiss the rod” thing. Miz L is fond of extolling the virtues of “criticism” as well. Funny, though, they don’t like it when it’s applied to them. Example: when she flew off the handle with edrie, when edrie dared offer polite, detailed, constructive criticism of her comments on feminism:

You know what? (5+ / 0-)
Recommended by:DebtorsPrison, tryptamine, northsea, cookiebear, Elise
I’ll engage in a conversation with you the day you desire to engage in a conversation rather than preaching, whining, lecturing, and attributing ignorance to me that is clearly a projection of your own insecurities.

In 50 years I’ll be just as frustrated with others as you are with me now? Oh, honey, believe me, I am as frustrated with you as you are with me right this very moment. Unlike you, I’ve attempted to remain civil and engage in discussion of this up to this point, but that doesn’t mean I think your attitude is remotely acceptable.

Give me a fucking break. You are unwilling to allow that anyone but yourself has anything to contribute here, and your unwillingness to allow that means that if I cite the yards of shelves filled with books on feminism and gender I own and have read, you will snot off at me about book learning and how it’s unlearnable without having lived exactly what you have lived because your experiences alone are the canonical feminist ones. If I cite the classes I have taken on feminism (American women’s history – twice; European feminist history; sociology of gender; feminist theory; several women’s literature classes), you will prattle on about how that wasn’t meaningful either. If I cite the feminists of all ages I have been raised by, talked to, listened to, taken classes from, taught classes to, been friends with, attended talks and readings by, corresponded with, you will find some way to dismiss their experiences too. If I cite the other people – women and men, of all ages – who have gotten benefit from Feminisms diaries over the past months and who come to engage seriously, thoughtfully, and in a spirit of exchange with and openness to others, you will find a damn way to disrespect them as well. And it’s not about me, it’s not about them, it’s not about anything but your fundamental inability to see beyond your own corneas, so deep is your aggrieved self-obsession and self-righteousness.

DKos should be retitled Daily Hypocrisy.

14. Tuston - 5 February 2007

Well, I think I’ve figured out why the dastardly dames and damsels on this site are so degenerate; you all failed to pledge chastity to your fathers at chastity balls (heheheh! chastity balls?!)

From the online pages ofGlamour. A magazine I read all the time for “beauty tips” (ha!)

…the gray-haired man next to me reaches into his breast pocket, pulls out a small satin box and flips it open to check out a gold ring he’s about to place on the finger of the woman sitting to his right. Her eyes well up with tears as she is overcome by emotion.

The man’s date? His 25-year-old daughter. Welcome to Colorado Springs’ Seventh Annual Father-Daughter Purity Ball, held at the five-star Broadmoor Hotel. The event’s purpose is, in part, to celebrate dad-daughter bonding, but the main agenda is for fathers to vow to protect the girls’ chastity until they marry and for the daughters to promise to stay pure. Pastor Randy Wilson, host of the event and cofounder of the ball, strides to the front of the room, takes the microphone and asks the men, “Are you ready to war for your daughters’ purity

Seriously though, “warring” for your daughters purity when she’s 25?

Has anybody ever brought up Oedipus/Electra complex to these people?

Probably not, frank discussions about subconcious urges titillates their naughty parts (i.e. their misnamed “brains”) too much.

Maybe they should move to Iraq, so they can really “war” for their daughters’ purity and kill them if they dare engage in sexual congress.

Fucking sickos. The Kurgans would be proud of their descendants.

Perhaps the can revive the ancient indo-european practise of Sutee too.

How oldschool: woman as property, bound with a blood oath (oh hossana for those holy hymens!) and transfered between men during the contract of marriage.

Sounds like liberty to me.

Amen, and pass the freedom fries with the ammunition.

15. earth to meg - 5 February 2007

I was under the impression that Front Pagers used to stay out of the fray. Seems like it was rare to see them checking into diaries in substantive ways. Except for Hunter, I guess. But this current crop of Front Page Capos is really over the top. The job description now includes “must be willing to break kneecaps.” Boy, she’s really spewing some self-righteous b.s. there. Wow.

16. outofwater - 5 February 2007

I thought you all would enjoy this:


It won’t be around long, so act fast.

17. earth to meg - 5 February 2007

Buhdy’s next. It’s getting scary over there.

18. outofwater - 5 February 2007

How has buhdy survived so long?

19. Tuston - 5 February 2007


Nice pick. Usually I like to lampoon dkos diaries but the diary at the end of your link is right on:

The point of this diary is to remind all of you to please not think of this place as a community. It is not, your individual voice matters here as much as it does in Washington, and you are expendable if you dare to challenge the status quo. Daily Kos is a business, there is nothing wrong with that standing alone, but like all businesses its single function is to make money. There is no community policing underway, that’s a ruse, but there are police. The purpose of the police isn’t to keep trolls away, but to keep the blog mainstream enough to generate more revenue.

The world will not be changed here. The belief that DK is a movement is just illusion which causes power, thought, money and energy to be drained from real potential. As you go forward, please view DK in a skeptical light, scratch your head when things seem out of whack, but if you want to stay, keep your doubts silent.

Not much to add to that, but “write on!”

20. outofwater - 5 February 2007

Boy there was a pounce on that one.

Want to take bets as to how long it sticks around?

21. supervixen - 5 February 2007

yeah, that’s a great diary.

Listen to this monumentally stupid bullshit posted in response:

Wrong. (0 / 0)

You can only say that if you are not part of the community that does exist here. This community is vast, diverse, and not uniform in opinion, yet we do all get alone. If you are part of this community, it is because you attack it at will due to some puritanical disagreement. Purists cannot stand community, for they never associate themselves with those they disagree with.


If you hate Daily Kos so much, why do you pay attention to it? If you had any sense, you would move on with your life and post your opinions elsewhere.

by Lucius Vorenus on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 08:17:19 AM PST

It reminds me of that Thurber cartoon: “If this is the wrong number, why did you answer the phone?”

22. outofwater - 5 February 2007

“If you hate Daily Kos so much, why do you pay attention to it? If you had any sense, you would move on with your life and post your opinions elsewhere.”

America love it or leave it.

THey have become the enemy.

23. earth to meg - 5 February 2007

Diarist has a 4-digit user ID. Probably been around long enough to see the slide into the muck.

I just posted on Bench Cat Two about holding their feet to the fire. Don’t let them dictate the terms of the debate. Calling themselves a “liberal” blog is false advertising. Dkos needs to be held up to the light of day for what it really is. That’s the most straightforward diary I’ve seen on what’s happening over there.

24. marisacat - 5 February 2007

New thread ahead. I posted the whole text of Eastern Oakies diary…

25. Tuston - 5 February 2007

Well the pile on has Miss Blue, Fabooj, FleetEnema, et al throwing their weight around, but I’m particularly enjoying the “newbie”, yet another liberal’s absolute mindlessness for heavy irony:

I don’t fucking know (0 / 0)
get me banned dipshit
blame it on armando

In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

by yet another liberal on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 08:34:17 AM PST

Nice sig line, no?

I wonder if he isn’t Farmando in “disguise”.

He certainly has the same profound argumentation techniques as BTD.

26. Sabrina Ballerina - 5 February 2007

Hi everyone,

This is the residue from the weekend Opol diaries. They absolutely hate him but insist on denying it (it’s just constructive criticism) and droning on and on (the women FPs are the most boring, preachy, droning, repetitive commenters in cyberspace) about how they do not.

Then they launch into the ‘everyone must be able to accept criticism blah, blah, blah’ propaganda, which, AIRC was invented to cover their attacks on Opol.. They just can’t control their disgust for Liberals, which Opol is and very talented. He would have been banned long ago if he had not had so many supporters fighting them off. They bait him and call it ‘constructive criticism’ and everyone yawns. For a long time he did not bite, but months of harrassment has caused him to respond lately, and of course, they jump on that. Mission accomplished.

They are fooling no one except the 100 or so usual suspects. Their hypocrisy is now plain to see for even the newest members.

Speaking of hypocrisy, Bob Johnson went insane in Opol’s diary this weekend and succeeded in turning off even those who were originally doubtful, calling out Opol to a physical fight, cursing, swearing etc. He made a complete ass of himself.

What is it about Opol? No one can understand it, but what they’ve actually done is to increase his support even among those who do not particularly like his work. It is the bullying, the unfair ‘enforcement’ of the rules that is truly disgusting people. Their hirees couldn’t be worse as far as running a good business or community. They fan the flames, instead of contributing positively to the site.

Rules, lol, it was laughable to read all the ‘rules’ nonsense after everyone saw Bog Johnson post a hissyfit diary after his attempted attacks on Opol which broke almost every rule in their now infamous FAQs. The most shit-stirring enforcer of all, who caused much of all of this as she worked to gain her stripes, SlElise, was in his rule-breaking diary. She was asked why she wasn’t ‘enforcing the rules’ in THAT particular diary ~ ‘it’s late at night so it’s not taking up space’ was the idiotic excuse she gave and she believes people are buying it.

Hillarious, so, it can now be concluded that Opol can break diary rules if he just posts in the middle of night?? lol we all know the answer to that.

Btw, Citizen53 has a 2digit UID. Even the old-timers are finally getting fed up. And they don’t have a clue what they’re doing wrong. Now, they ban Thistime. Someone who couldn’t watch the abuse and said so. Next will be the diarist if it hasn’t happened already. And more will disappear.

And Hunter’s nonsense – what a joke ‘we want standards’ – ‘good content’. which is what Opol’s work has been judged to be by the famous ‘community’! But the community suddenly doesn’t count.

The can’t get that they are dealing with intelligent human beings, adults, many very successful in their own lives, with families for whom they are trying to create a better future ~ they are NOT children and they will not succumb to the abuse that is dished out there or watch it for very long. Hunter and Kos’s preachy, ‘daddy is exasperated with the children’ , diaries are insulting to most intelligent people. It is they who need a daddy if anyone does. But some there do need that daddy figure it seems. And then there are the women attempting to imitate the men. It’s pathetic really.

If they force Opol off the site there will be a huge exodus and he will no doubt get some offers to start his own blog. I think even other good writers would join him – each time this happens, they are simply increasing the growing ‘bad rep’ they are getting. They want him gone, but won’t ban him. They want to him to have a melt-down, because this is what they do. It is like watching some surreal movie and they are so insulated from the real world (they seem to live on that blog) that they do not see how the rest of the real world sees them. They really are blind in their little closed in world.

And of course, nightprowler was deeply involved, droning, preaching explaining attempting to excuse what simply cannot be excused. lol

The problem is they do not know how to manage a business – you don’t shit on your customers or hire the most abusive, boring, mediocre people you can find as ‘administrators’.

And if Opol is ‘cleansed’ along with his supporters, they will go after the next victims. They want only rightleaning members there. It’s obvious, so Hunter’s ‘large tent’ nonsense doesn’t include Liberals. Unless they stay quiet.

It’s getting harder and harder for them to explain why they have so much trouble with sooooo many people! Democrats, decent people, good writers and thinkers – they worked hard, a whole posse of them and almost all the FPs to cleanse the site of hrh. So why is there no peace now? lol After Opol it will be the next in line. Always the same people on their end, chasing down different people on the other end. It’s so obvious who has the problem.

It’s sad because they are slowly destroying what should have been an innovative tool to give the people a real voice in the process. That diary is so right. This is a mini version of DC. You have no voice there, unless it’s mediocre (Kos said he’s not interested in good writing) and above all, ‘loyal’.

As far as the latest nonsense about so-called criticism, well if Mzzzzz Laura is going to present herself as a literary critic, she needs to work on her own dubious skills first.

It’s out of control over there. Bullying never, ever works for very long and most people find it to be a pretty despicable tactic in any setting. But I don’t think they can give it up. Some adult needs to grab the reins over there before it’s too late.

27. marisacat - 5 February 2007

I don’t think there is an adult available.

Thanks for that comment, SB. If I may, I’d like ot move to the FP of the next posting (Open thread, Burning Witches and Mission Statement)…


28. earth to meg - 5 February 2007

Psychological warfare. Waiting for folks to have meltdowns. “Disappearing” people without explanation, then allowing the groupthinkers to jump in and call it an appropriate cleansing of “purity trolls.” BigThug turns on “one of his own,” even. The mistrust, the calculatedness of it all, eventually of course they do start eating their own because it becomes a huge dysfunctional break from reality. It really is like watching a psychosis unfurling in slow motion. TeresaInPA may end up on “the list,” since she often stands up against these bizarre tactics. Along with a bunch of others. But like TiPA said in the MSOC diary at the beginning of January, “you gotta have a posse. You don’t have a chance if you don’t have a posse.” Classic bullying.

29. marisacat - 5 February 2007

TiPA is a Pastor Dan regular… and patrols those threads quite aggressively. Why there needed to be christian communicant convenings at a political site mystified many of us.

I doubt either of thsoe will be purged.

Well there be some changes to the blogroll that may be revealing.. yes.

30. outofwater - 5 February 2007

Is this is the welcoming spot for purged Kossaks? If it is it may get so crowded here no one will want to come. MC,you’d better adopt some rules, and naturally a FAQ.

Does anyone know whether Kos knows it is in meltdown mode?

If things continue like this, in a year or two YearlyKos will look like an off-year, January meeting of the Arthur Co. Nebraska Democratic Party (without the crowd, but with the guns).

SB, great post, and insight. Thank you.

31. marisacat - 5 February 2007

LOL what thin and very liberal gruel the rulz are is in the thread ahead.

That site regularly goes into mini melt. And I sure don’t think Kos cares about Maximum Meltdown.

it was in a rage for two weeks over Pie. And it spilled to other sites.

It was not about the ad, ti was that women and special interests USING women had been slammed on his FP for MONTHS.

People got the point of the ads.

He always makes it clear. He is not interested.

He USES meltdowns for his martinet personality (IMO). He is a militarist.

32. marisacat - 5 February 2007

here is the link to the new post

33. supervixen - 5 February 2007

I actually think Kos likes the meltdowns. They generate a ton of traffic – everyone rushes online to rubberneck, just like crowds accumulate when there’s a dramatic fire or bar brawl – maybe someone will get hurt! How tragic and exciting!

34. D. Throat - 5 February 2007

Yup… check out Booman’s spike… just so happens to correspond with the FPing of Marisicat.

35. Madman in the Marketplace - 5 February 2007


The Kurgan was one of the best things about “Highlander”. Didn’t know he was based on a real people.

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