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No shit: 16 June 2007

Posted by marisacat in 2008 Election, Culture of Death, WAR!.
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 NYT, Gates of Iraq Speaks from the US Raj:

In Iraq, Gates Says Progress Toward Peace Is Lagging

CAMP VICTORY, Iraq, June 15 — Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates arrived here late on Friday bluntly expressing disappointment with the pace of political reconciliation under Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, even as the final units of the American troop increase were moving into position and bombings threatened to inspire more sectarian violence.

Mr. Gates, making his fourth trip to Iraq in six months as defense secretary, said his message to the Iraqi leadership would be that “our troops are buying them time to pursue reconciliation and that, frankly, we are disappointed in the progress thus far.”

In what appears to be a coordinated campaign by the Bush administration, the defense secretary will be reinforcing a message delivered to the Maliki government in person over recent days by Adm. William J. Fallon, the American commander in the Middle East, and John D. Negroponte, the deputy secretary of state.

Although Mr. Gates described his goal as encouraging efforts by the Maliki government in Baghdad, he also expressed a desire to increase cooperation with provincial political leaders and local tribal sheiks.

He said that “perhaps we have gotten too focused on the central government, and not enough on the provinces, and on the tribes and what is happening in those areas.” He said he hoped to spark greater attention to this “ground-up effort.”  ::snip::

We know it is all about the oil.  And I must say, “ground up” brings to mind some last act in the abattoir, grinding up the bones.  Yes that sounds like us.

And this, from Asia Times:

The wars that oil the Pentagon’s engine
By Michael T Klare

Sixteen US gallons – more than 60 liters – of oil. That’s how much the average American soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan consumes on a daily basis – either directly, through the use of Humvees, tanks, trucks and helicopters, or indirectly, by calling in air strikes.

Multiply this figure by 162,000 American soldiers in Iraq, 24,000 in Afghanistan, and 30,000 in the surrounding region (including sailors aboard US warships in the Persian Gulf) and you arrive at about 13.25 million liters of oil: the daily petroleum tab for US combat operations in the Middle East war zone.

Multiply that daily tab by 365 and you get 4.9 billion liters: the estimated annual oil expenditure for US combat operations in Southwest Asia. That’s greater than the total annual oil usage of Bangladesh, population 150 million – and yet it’s a gross underestimate of the Pentagon’s wartime consumption.

Such numbers cannot do full justice to the extraordinary gas-guzzling expense of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. After all, for every soldier stationed “in theater”, there are two more in transit, in training, or otherwise in line for eventual deployment to the war zone – soldiers who also consume enormous amounts of oil, even if less than their compatriots overseas. Moreover, to sustain an “expeditionary” army located halfway around the world, the US Defense Department must move millions of tons of arms, ammunition, food, fuel and equipment every year by plane or ship, consuming additional tanker-loads of petroleum. Add this to the tally and the Pentagon’s war-related oil budget jumps appreciably, though exactly how much we have no real way of knowing.

As the article mentions farther on, plenty of black accounts to find the money it needs… And I suspect the Democrats would welcome another Supplemental.  All is oil — or pork.

Shoot us, not to put us out of our misery, tho truly we are miserable, shoot us that the rest of the world might live.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Such cuteness we have been treated to for weeks, couple of well groomed dogs spinning round each other, nose to ass… can you imagine the real conversations Bush and Putin are having? 

All about power and how far they can push it.

**********************************************

Comments

1. liberalcatnip - 16 June 2007
2. liberalcatnip - 16 June 2007

He said that “perhaps we have gotten too focused on the central government, and not enough on the provinces, and on the tribes and what is happening in those areas.” He said he hoped to spark greater attention to this “ground-up effort.”

Shorter Gates: “Let’s just make this up as we go along. What the hell. It’s not like people are dying or anything.”

3. liberalcatnip - 16 June 2007

As if. This was on FAUX News:

Gentlemen, let’s start with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. He described the outgoing Chairman of the Joint Chiefs this week as “incompetent,” and a senior commander in Iraq as “out of touch.” Rich, what have your readers been saying about that?

RICH GALEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, my readers didn’t go quite as ballistic as I did. I, I was, I was truly angry about that, because, I mean, I think that there is a time and a place to, to talk about the way things are going. But that kind of name-calling, and the only reason he used that kind of language was because he was on a private phone call with liberal bloggers.

BOB BECKEL, DEMOCRAT STRATEGIST: Well, that’s the thing that’s amazing to me. There’s no such thing as a private phone call, anyway, let alone with a bunch of bloggers. There’s something about Harry Reid and the left of bloggers that has gotten, there’s a marriage gone on there. I mean, frankly I think they got much too much influence over him. And the idea that he thought he could get away with saying that and it’s not going to get out is crazy.

Influence? Yeah. How’d that influence work when it came to ending the war? Impeaching Bush? Or maybe Beckel is right because the big boyz don’t exactly want those things to happen right now anyway. Who’s playing who?

4. bayprairie - 16 June 2007

there is influence alright. but the influence flows from reid, onto the starstruck FPers who luv them some access, and dream lollipop dreams of free lunches, like the whitebread harlem lunch crowd enjoyed, corner office consultant jobs and easy money.

they’ve been saddled and broke by the GOP golden boy, who’s busy serving promises to us up for the bible thumpers to slaughter.

the top bloggers ride herd for harry reid.

5. marisacat - 16 June 2007

well the blahgers are only agaisnt the war as it is Bush’s war. had kerry gone in, the excuses and censorship would have flowed differently.

Little sheep on poodle chains.

6. liberalcatnip - 16 June 2007

I thought the official word was that they weren’t going to intervene (not that I believed that). Via The Times Online:

ISRAEL’s new defence minister Ehud Barak is planning an attack on Gaza within weeks to crush the Hamas militants who have seized power there.

According to senior Israeli military sources, the plan calls for 20,000 troops to destroy much of Hamas’s military capability in days.

The raid would be triggered by Hamas rocket attacks against Israel or a resumption of suicide bombings.

Barak, who is expected to become defence minister tomorrow, has already demanded detailed plans to deploy two armoured divisions and an infantry division, accompanied by assault drones and F-16 jets, against Hamas.

Meanwhile, according to the J Post: Peretz accuses Barak of playing ‘Rambo’

“Why is Barak burning to join the government while the prime minister is away?” Peretz told Olmert, according to a source close to him. “It’s not as if Barak is Rambo coming to save us. So why is [his appointment] being handled so hastily and disrespectfully?”

Well, I think that answer’s obvious now.

“If we didn’t appoint Barak immediately, we would have had to wait another 10 days until the Knesset convened after Olmert’s return,” an Olmert associate said. “With everything that’s happening in Gaza, the thousands of Palestinians who want to flood into Israel and the prime minister leaving today, the need for a defense minister was clear.”

Rambo, he is – or at least he wants to be.

7. marisacat - 16 June 2007

it’s open war on Palestinian settlements, cities and refugee camps.

I read today that the Arab League has sided with Israel and the US w/r/t GAZA and Hamas.

Like Clinton blaming Arafat (Palestinians) for the loss of his desired “legacy”, Barak blames the Palestinians for his loss of political power in 2001.

Looks like a lot of revenge, annihilation and run up to 08.

8. liberalcatnip - 16 June 2007

And the Dems won’t do a damn thing about it.

9. marisacat - 16 June 2007

Uri Avnery has a piece up at Counterpunch

In the government of the two Ehuds, Ehud Barak will decide on matters of war and peace.

Until now, practically all his actions have had negative results. He came very close to an agreement with Assad the father and escaped at the last moment. He withdrew the Israeli army from South Lebanon, but without speaking with Hizbullah, which took over. He compelled Arafat to come to Camp David, insulted him there and declared that we have no partner for peace. This dealt a death blow to the chances of peace, a blow which still paralyzes the Israeli public. He has boasted that his real intention was to “unmask” Arafat. He was more of a failed Napoleon than an Israeli de Gaulle.

Will the Ethiopian change his skin, the leopard his spots? Hard to believe.

10. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

Since I know you’re reading this, let me share a few thoughts with you about this comment, donkeytale (you self-righteous ass):

The real plan would be for the left to venture out of academia, out of the arts, out from under their beds, out from under their self absorbed whiny depressions and other assorted “ailments” and “disabilities”(which even if real are still nothing more than excuses for not taking action) and actually took part in day to day business life, for instance.

I dare you to spend a week in my disabled body and then come and tell me that to my face. And you call yourself “progressive” while you bash the sick? Who the fuck do you think you are? Because you’re damn well sounding like a right-wing, puritan work “ethic” pumping, conservative to me.

11. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

#9. It’s all a recipe for more disaster, mcat – with the US financing it – too many of whom have absolutely no idea what’s going on because they’re busy being enraged (rightly so) about Iraq. And then there’s Africa/AFRICOM. Good diversion, that Iraq war.

12. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

And I’m off to bed. Have a good nite.

13. JJB - 17 June 2007

liberalcatnip, no. 10,

As stupid as that quote is, this is even worse:

You don’t like the war profiteering culture? Go to work for Halliburton, where you actually will have a chance to directly influence that culture.

You don’t like the Southern Baptist Church? Join it, become a preacher. Throw the moneychangers out of the temple.

As if one or one hundred or even one thousand person(s) going to work for Halliborton is going to have any effect on how Cheney and his partners in crime run the damned enterprise. His comment on the SBC is so stupid it doesn’t even deserve comment, except to dismiss it out of hand.

Next he’ll be saying “what we really need to change the Armed Forces are legions of progressives in the ranks!” Yeah, Bush will really be dissuaded from using the uniformed services as his private legions by a lot of “progressive” privates, seamen, etc.

14. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Truthout has picked up the Dana Priest June 17 story on PTSD:

They occupy every rank, uniform and corner of the country. People such as Army Lt. Sylvia Blackwood, who was admitted to a locked-down psychiatric ward in Washington after trying to hide her distress for a year and a half [story, A13]; and Army Pfc. Joshua Calloway, who spent eight months at Walter Reed Army Medical Center and left barely changed from when he arrived from Iraq in handcuffs; and retired Marine Lance Cpl. Jim Roberts, who struggles to keep his sanity in suburban New York with the help of once-a-week therapy and a medicine cabinet full of prescription drugs; and the scores of Marines in California who were denied treatment for PTSD because the head psychiatrist on their base thought the diagnosis was overused.

They represent the first wave in what experts say is a coming deluge.

As many as one-quarter of all soldiers and Marines returning from Iraq are psychologically wounded, according to a recent American Psychological Association report. Twenty percent of the soldiers in Iraq screened positive for anxiety, depression and acute stress, an Army study found.

But numbers are only part of the problem. The Institute of Medicine reported last month that Veterans Affairs’ methods for deciding compensation for PTSD and other emotional disorders had little basis in science and that the evaluation process varied greatly. And as they try to work their way through a confounding disability process, already-troubled vets enter a VA system that chronically loses records and sags with a backlog of 400,000 claims of all kinds.

::snip::

all the figures cited in the article sound LOW.

15. marisacat - 17 June 2007

GEE considering none other than Jimmy, classic small town white Sunday-school-teacher-near-preacher-man-still-in-the-laity, left the SBC and wrote a public letter about it. And about Richard Land.

Yes run off and joint the SBC.

16. marisacat - 17 June 2007

well donkeytale is what is classically called a “useful idiot”. Another reason he should post where thereisnospoon and others who are useful FP.

17. wilfred - 17 June 2007

Watching Steffie and all i can think is ‘are Lindsay Graham and Ralph Reed the same person’? The look exactly alike and both make my skin crawl the same way.

18. Tuston - 17 June 2007

Hola Wilfred!

all i can think is ‘are Lindsay Graham and Ralph Reed the same person’

I don’t know, RR doesn’t have the whiff of the closet about him that Lindsay does.

not that it matters (other than to emphasize his hipocracy), or that I’m qualified or informed enuff to make the call.

I guess I’m just as ignorant as the worst of the stereotypers (type on!) but golly gee wilikers he seems to me to be the epitome of the plantation owner who molested his “boys”…

19. marisacat - 17 June 2007

AFP reports that Israeli troops have moved into the northern areas of GAZA… and plan to halt gas supplies to the area. The only supplier of petrol is an Israeli company. Neat.

20. marisacat - 17 June 2007

The appalling thing is that after all that has come out about RR he is still acceptable for MSM. And he is. Earlier in the week I saw him on camera, pontificating.

All of the neocons and theocons and cons and fundies and freaks are fully acceptable.

Fucking freak nation.

21. Tuston - 17 June 2007

All of the neocons and theocons and cons and fundies and freaks are fully acceptable

But “my two mommies” is not.

What self-conflicted tools “we” are…

22. marisacat - 17 June 2007

hmmm on with Timmy is Ryan Crocker US amb to Iraq. he says we are doing “simultaneous whack-a-mole” in Iraq.

There you go, definition of failure in Iraq. And rampant murder and mayhem.

23. Tuston - 17 June 2007

FNS has Petraeus on.

CW: “isn’t most violence sectarian and not AQ”
GP: “Al Qaeda is the Sunni Violence. Provokes Shia extremist retaliation”

Right. And Saddam and Bin Laden shared hot tubs and whores…

24. marisacat - 17 June 2007

from Angry Arab:

“Discussions of Israel’s military trade usually focus on the flow of weapons into the country – US-made Caterpillar bulldozers used to destroy homes in the West Bank, and British companies supplying parts for F-16s. Overlooked is Israel’s huge and expanding export business.

Israel now sends $1.2bn in “defence” products to the United States – up dramatically from $270m in 1999. In 2006, Israel exported $3.4bn in defence products – well over a billion more than it received in American military aid.

That makes Israel the fourth largest arms dealer in the world, overtaking Britain.”

Posted by As’ad at 11:22 PM 21 comments

he draws from this Guardian article. (It’s the Naomi Klein, think catnip linked to it yesterday as well.)

25. marisacat - 17 June 2007

well I will match you Patraeus on Fox with Kate O’Beirne wearing coral on MTP. (Byron York up now, not wearing coral.)

She is parsing Patraeus… with Timmy… hahahahh

26. Tuston - 17 June 2007

Juan Cole has a must read up today on the Turkey/Kurd/Iraq situation:

I was just at an International Relations conference at Middle East Technical University in Ankara. I didn’t seek out any serving Turkish politicians or diplomats for comment, but did talk informally to academics and retired ambassadors and officials of wide experience. I didn’t advertise these conversations as interviews for a public article, however, so I won’t name them. Anyway, they can’t speak officially.

But here is what I heard them to say. First of all, the atmosphere in Ankara (Turkey’s capital) is of extreme anger about the Iraqi Kurdistan Regional Government giving safe haven to guerrillas of the Kurdish Worker’s Party (PKK). I mean livid.

snip

The alleged recent border incursion by several hundred Turkish troops 2 miles into Iraq in hot pursuit of PKK fighters probably did occur, virtually everyone I talked to said. One observer suggested that Turkey might thereby be attempting to ‘change the rules of engagement’ with the PKK over the border. Such incursions are also opportunities for intelligence gathering. Turkish special ops teams have penetrated deep into Iraqi Kurdistan on occasion.

snip

I brought up with several observers my nightmare, that the Kurdistan Regional Government in Iraq will certainly annex Kirkuk later this year, and that there may be as a result clashes between the Kurds and the Turkmen minority. Iraqi Turkmen, some 800,000 strong, have been adopted by the Turks of Turkey as sort of little brothers. I can’t imagine the Turkish public standing for a massacre of Turkmen, and hundreds of thousands of people in the street could force Buyukanit to act decisively.

My colleagues universally agreed that the potential was there for an escalation of the crisis under such conditions. No one said I was exaggerating the risks. One former official who is an expatriate said that before he arrived in Ankara last week, he did not know just how angry people there were over this issue. He is now convinced that the situation is serious.

snip

I continue to be just amazed that no one in authority in Iraq is taking any steps to try to avert such a crisis. I earlier suggested a partion of Kirkuk province before the referendum as a way of defusing the tensions. But it seems like that the referendum will be held in the whole province and that the whole of it will go to Kurdistan. Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul has said that this development would be a cause for war in and of itself.

The train wreck continues to unfold.

How far off are we from a warzone stretching from gaza to ankara to tehran to ???

27. Tuston - 17 June 2007

My TV does split screen so I’m actually able to flip between the MP and FNS what is up with EJ Dionnes’ shirt tie combo?

I think I should take John Denver’s advice:

She was a levelheaded dancer on the road to alcohol,
I was just a soldier on my way to Montreal.
Well, she pressed her chest against me about the time the jukebox broke.
She gave me a peck on the back of the neck, and these are the words she spoke.

Blow up your TV, throw away your paper, go to the country, build you a home.
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches, try and find Jesus on your own.

I sat there at the table, and I acted real naive.
Cause I knew that topless lady, she had something up her sleeve.
She danced around the room awhile and she did the hoochy coo.
Yeah, singing a song all night long, telling me what to do.

Blow up your TV, throw away your paper, go to the country, build you a home.
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches, try and find Jesus on your own.

Well, I was young and hungry, and about to leave that place.
Just as I was going. she looked me in the face.
I said “You must know the answer,” she said “No, but I’ll give it a try.”
To this day we’ve been living our way, here is the reason why.

We blew up your TV, threw away your paper, went to the country, build us a home.
Had a lot of children, fed ’em on peaches, they all found Jesus on their own.

28. BooHooHooMan - 17 June 2007

# 10 Catnip- donkeytale’s an ass. The idea of “Taking part” in day to day business life is a notion embraced by:

1. Adolecents in Jr. Achievement
2. Naive Starry- eyed entrants into working life
3 Mid Level Lackeys rationalizing their existence after twenty years
4. Struggling/ failed small business people or shell shocked corporate refugees who still cling to the “Main Street” mythology of business in America.
5. Bubble Boys

But I suppose this guy’s Bill Gates using all his free time blogging sharing his insights on business and reinvigorating “the Left”. Riiiight.

If he was an insightful person who has actually worked for the last 25 or 30 years, let alone run anything of substance, he has experienced the downward pressure in quality of life within organizations if not actual earnings. Of course why bother with citing reality when you can pull some tale out of your hairy ass??

From the Conference Board in 2007:
http://www.conference-board.org/utilities/pressDetail.cfm?press_ID=3075

Americans are growing increasingly unhappy with their jobs, The Conference Board reports today. The decline in job satisfaction has occurred over a period of two decades, with little to suggest a significant reversal in attitudes anytime soon.

Today, less than half of all Americans say they are satisfied with their jobs, down from 61 percent twenty years ago…..

The decline in satisfaction is not just concentrated among younger workers. Satisfaction levels among all workers, regardless of age, income or even residence, have deteriorated in recent years. Says Lynn Franco, Director of The Conference Board Consumer Research Center: “Although a certain amount of dissatisfaction with one’s job is to be expected, the breadth of dissatisfaction is somewhat unsettling, since it carries over from what attracts employees to a job to what keeps them motivated and productive on the job.”

I have a habit of fighting assclowns on their own turf, so let me put it this way: This jackass has never run an organization of any size or consequence.He seems like one of the Bully Bullshit Boys wearing one of the gowns doled out at the asylum… Ass as plain as day …Perhaps he embraces “completely flat” organizations obviating the need for workers/ employees/ associates and customers alike. Brilliant! Ever hear of the Conference Board, or Leading Economic Indicators, the source too “Left”, Asshole?

http://www.conference-board.org/aboutus/about.cfm

The Conference Board is the world’s preeminent business membership and research organization. Best known for the Consumer Confidence Index and the Leading Economic Indicators, The Conference Board has, for over 90 years, equipped the world’s leading corporations with practical knowledge through issues-oriented research and senior executive peer-to-peer meetings.

Butthole Surfer.

29. missdevore - 17 June 2007

17–John Prine.

30. marisacat - 17 June 2007

well I cut off donkeytale’s comments last night (which I posted merely for exposure of the rot and maggots on his brain) when he descended to “cornhole” and “bunghole”

so, “butthole surfer” is very accurate.

***************

Timmy on the rising numbers for Obama and Fred Tompson… in SC and the south. And his/Obama numbers with blacks in SC.

The game is so over. We won’t even get the marginal people we got for years.

Mannequins and patronage wimmens all the way.

31. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 June 2007

so we’re spending billions of dollars to play a children’s arcade game at Chuck E Cheese?

fills me w/ confidence.

Oh, Sy Hersch is on CNN right now.

32. Tuston - 17 June 2007

cornholed donkeytale
supreme, pro butthole surfer
says “dung bung bung dung”

33. BooHooHooMan - 17 June 2007

Mcat We won’t even get the marginal people we got for years.

Funny, in a “looking forward to a turdburger” kinda way

34. Tuston - 17 June 2007

Friedman was FNS “power player of the week”.

LOL. He said doesn’t want to be a pundit that is like “thor on the mt top, tossing lightning bolts” because the reading public can tell when “you stop reporting” CW , loathesome as he is, looked like he could barely keep himself from laughing..

35. marisacat - 17 June 2007

btw, this is the SourceWatch page on Mike Lux… who pretty obviously will be the BIg Cheese in the new operative enclave forming with Bowers and Stoller.

36. bayprairie - 17 June 2007

I am trying to change this moribound website from within. Its not easy, you cant slay the beast(even Jesus couldnt so how could we) but you can tickle his innards and loosen him up a bit for sure.

tickling those innards, hither and yon. looks like MEsock has gotten a little reap what you sow. hope she enjoys!

it’s funny how he relives his past successes in god’s gift to the world, american business managment. i can’t help but be reminded of ward cleaver lecturing the beave.

Total! Quality! Assurance!

37. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 June 2007

anybody who’s looked at how the world works realizes that few broken organizations are changed from within. Almost never. They collapse or they’re forced to change by outside pressure or a competitor/attacker/activist movement overwhelms them and takes over. That’s how it works. People within are changed by the organization, NOT the other way around.

38. marisacat - 17 June 2007

one thing that is so amusing at the moment, the ads for the soon to come Greenwald new book. Ads are at all your friendly “liberal” blogs.

Using Colmes of Hannity and Colmes (LOL a known FNS product) recommendation, a quote to sell sell sell sell sell sell the book. Colmes even calls the book an “act of patriotism”.

Well, another mannequin. As debased as the flag. All we salute today is Raytheon, Boeing, McDonnell Douglas, GE, Disney, etc.

But the really quite compromised CBC should not sponsor a debate with FOX.

Bridges for sale at the 5 cent Lemonade Stand.

39. bayprairie - 17 June 2007

this is on the recommended list at Kos right now.

This isn’t a diary about abortion, but rather about other reproductive choices that in turn have made me question whether we as a society are doing the right thing by allowing families to have certain, seemingly unregulated, options.

options. bad idea. especially those unregulated ones. regulate every aspect of everyone’s lives. bring on the dkos regulators

I don’t support people’s “choice” to select those aspects of science that they think benefit them and discard the rest, at the cost of pain and suffering for living babies and a huge cost to society.

i’m speechless. in the comments the diary author has this to say

NICU care, the most expensive care (30+ / 0-)

makes all of our insurance premiums go up.

::::

the idiot biologist

It is not natural for a human being to have a (16+ / 0-)

litter.

We are meant to breed one at a time. Twins and Triplets are the rare rare exceptions to that rule, and those pregnancies are complicated, usually requiring bed rest for the mother after the 6 month.

I do not think Quads, Quints, and Sextuplets do not happen by nature. Thus, it is not God’s work.

In order to find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to God.

by Lucius Vorenus on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 07:08:47 AM PDT

one at a time? today must be display your arrogant ignorance day at kos.

40. marisacat - 17 June 2007

hahahaha:

In story: Bowers and Stoller Leaving MyDD

Re: In what sense was it what they did not believe ( / )

no one was banned for simply opposing Casey. Bowers didn’t vote for Casey in the primary and would have been ecstatic if Pennacchio had won.

by BooMan on
[ Read Story | Read Comment | Parent ]

Poor Martin and his friends. Pick up those bridges for sale at the old timey Lemonade Stand. Ignore Rahm and Schumer standing to the right of the fake children manning the stand…..

LOL

41. brinn - 17 June 2007

bay, I do think he has a point (the OP, not LVDD) about the stupidity of this particular couple’s choices….

but, ya know what?? idiocy is a choice…the call for regulation is really scary…

42. Miss Devore - 17 June 2007

bayprarie–I think there is a lot of good discussion on that diary–essentially stemming from the young couple (the woman was 24) who decided to use fertility drugs after being unable to conceive for one year. Their doctor recommended that they selectively abort fetuses, but they didn’t want to do that (not clear if it was for religious reasons) and thus gave birth to sextuplet preemies, 3 of who have already died, while the remaining 3 are critical. Lots of issues regarding responsibilities–those of fertility doctors, and people who decide to opt for multiple births with all the problems and normally huge medical costs associated with them. And yes of woman’s reproductive choices.

I don’t think the kind of regulation they are discussing-limiting # of implanted embryos–as is apparently done in some countries–is not a “control” issue as much as realistic solutions for what members of society, with all available wisdom, have in terms of co-respectives rights. We currently have a government that not only financially will not support abortion, but is evermore trying to restrict a right to it. But if people have a “right” to have multiple births that take up enormous social and medical resources, it’s way fucking out of balance.

Earlier today I was thinking–ok, so what if the forced birth segment could get their way–what would things looks like beyond a population surge? Huge economic dislocation and greater economic disparity by taking many women out of the job market, at least temporarily, more disabled children in a society not known for its great care of disabled (especially after the disability is incurred in their military service)and more motherless children. I think there would be an entire social collapse in 18 months–or less. Imagine all the abused children from mothers entirely lacking the maturity to raise children.

While pondering this insane scenario, I will return to the laundromat, only to imagine what that place would look like if every embryo had a right to exist.

43. marisacat - 17 June 2007

that diary – whether the author knows it or not (NOT going thru ChuyHChrist’s comment history) – is manipulative propaganda.

It furthers regulation and judging people (legally)… catch the last phrase of the diary:

The Morrisons were irresponsible and uneducated, and who knows how they are interpreting these turns of events (as God’s will?). But I feel like we as a society are also implicated, by allowing the irresponsible use of reproductive technologies in a way that is harmful. I don’t like those choices.

The author reminds me of “Church of Bruce” who put out for both sides. SOmetimes being a support for choice and sometimes posting close to “that slut” comments.

You know: FUCK THAT SITE. And fuck the Recommended Diaries, a push poll if ever their was one.

I called the blahgs PUSH POLLING years ago.

And you know, try to ignore Rahm and Schumer to the right of the old timey Lemonade Stand, run by the fake children mannequins.

What a fucked waste it all has been.

44. brinn - 17 June 2007

I agree with everything you said there, Mcat….

People that blind (the dkossers, not the subjects of the diary) deserve everything they get.

the image od the lemonade stand and the fake children mannequins is sublime!!

Thanks!

45. marisacat - 17 June 2007

The fundies WILL NEVER NEVER protest at in vitro offices nor at sites that store embryonic tissue from in vitro.

never.

The point is moot.

We are trapped.

And to be frank, I rather suspect that Ryan and Brianna Morrison are hiding their religious imperatives. The fundies will NEVER protest fundie choices.

Ever.

They aren’t the first. There was a Utah couple in the 90s already with one child. The woman played a very dangerous game of Russian Roulette (again, she risked the lives of the fetuses by not taking selective reduction), with religious benediction iirc. Think she had 7, also AMA.

But frankly, how many want to be, as the Dionne mother said decades ago, to her adult children, you made me the mother of a litter. You made me an animal.

46. ms_xeno - 17 June 2007

I’m not submitting a resume to Haliburton until after I’ve had my morning coffee and bagel, sorry.

Promised info on last week’s raids, via PSCAC, in case anyone missed it:

Here as well.

This happened in St. Johns, which is ten minutes from me. Wonder if they’re going to show up in Vancouver (SW Wash.) next, where I work. Many, many industrial sites there. This is the busy season for construction as well, so…

mr_xeno tells me that local immigration lawyers smelled the handwriting on the wall days before the raid, because local jails were abruptly cleared of many small-time offenders. Gotta’ get rid of the thieves and such to make room for the REAL societal plague, doncha’ know.

Grrrrr…

47. marisacat - 17 June 2007

LOL

LOL! Poor screening, plus (20+ / 0-)

Recommended by:Rebecca, musicsleuth, celticshel, cathy b, TiaRachel, exiledfromTN, hairspray, leolabeth, Fabian, historys mysteries, offred, eru, esquimaux, chococat, ChuyHChrist, lemming22, Snakes on a White House, bricoleur, apark559, NogodsnomastersMary

ethical lapses in contacting parents if their donor’s offspring come up with problems. Overuse of the donor.

My example is illustrative, sort of.

I had a baby by donor insemination, and I wouldn’t trade him for anything. He is wonderful, and we love him. However . . .

We entered the donor sibling registry to voluntarily contact families using the same donor. We made contact with the parents of 6 other kids, which is kind of cool. However, we found that the number of kids probably far exceeds the reported 21 pregnancies, since only 40% of women or clinics report pregnancies or live births. Does my kid have a hundred siblings?

Two of the siblings known to us have autism, and another OCD. Two others sensory integration disorder. There is some heritability there. Another two had severe congenital heart defects. Another cleft palate. This caused the sperm bank to take this lucrative donor off the market after ~20 years selling his sperm . . . but they neglected to tell us because, of course, that would be implying some kind of liability. Perfectly sane from a busines point of view, but from a human point of view? Not so much.

And a lot of your buddies going for beer money under-report familial diseases.

On the bright side, this is still more careful screening than a husband or boyfriend tends to go through.

Nunca se deve confiar em pata de cavalo, cabeça de juiz e bunda de nenê.

by rhubarb on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 08:25:57 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Oh gawd, twenty years of sperm (9+ / 0-)

Recommended by:Rebecca, bronte17, celticshel, cathy b, exiledfromTN, greeseyparrot, lemming22, bricoleur, NogodsnomastersMary

from one donor? I think about human biodiversity and recessive genes.

The average husband/boyfriend does not have the possibility of hundreds of offspring.

This above all: to thine own self be true…-WS

by Agathena on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 08:48:29 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

all you can do is laugh.

48. ms_xeno - 17 June 2007

Why would a woman want anything else from life than a litter ? Who needs to cultivate a brain when one has ovaries ?

On Alas, there’s an in-house Rightie who loves to trot out the threat that we’ll go down the tubes, just like Europe if we don’t make them White womens breed and breed and breed some more. Can’t let ’em fall down on the job with all this intellectual and obligation-free sexual indulgence because the filthy brown folks will Destroy Our Way Of Life.

Those fuckwits are everywhere. The main distinction between them is how much effort they make to couch their White-supremacist fantasies under “civilized” phrasings. But basically they consider themselves the keepers of White Euro values, and compulsory childbirth for White women is perfectly reasonable with the preservation of such supreme values at stake. OTOH, you know they’d sterlize every WOC they could get their hands on, given half a chance. Or at least put her in jail or in some kind of Government-ordained whorehouse a la’ Handmaid’s Tale.

49. Miss Devore - 17 June 2007

I’m not understanding your objection, MCat. If we know the likely outcome of some choices, don’t we try to make some effort to change the outcomes?

Do you see a positive thing in letting the market determine fertility specialists? Does everyone have a right to give birth?

50. Tuston - 17 June 2007

Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can’t be found.

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate

51. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Does everyone have a right to give birth?

yes.

unless you (the generic “you”) want eugenics and laws that mandate sterilisation based on the determination of the ruling class.

I don’t.

52. Tuston - 17 June 2007

why is it that there doesn’t seem to be one xtian who understands the whole “judge not” admonition?
*******************
Does everyone have the right to give birth? Yes, and the last thing I want is gub’mint deciding who is worthy of procreation.
Its all about control, and who gets to make the choices. The sentiment behind that diary, that reproductive choices need to be limited, is odious and enimical to freedom and human progress…

53. marisacat - 17 June 2007

President Sarkozy’s party has won a comfortable majority in the French election but not the predicted landslide, early projections say.

For more details: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news

54. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

I do not think Quads, Quints, and Sextuplets do not happen by nature. Thus, it is not God’s work.

God’s work, Mr Fundie Vagina?

The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.
-Pierre E. Trudeau

And neither does the church.

55. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

And, I’m sorry, but is he just stupid or what?

We are meant to breed one at a time.

56. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

#13. JJB,
Yes, the donkey person actually believes that you can change Halliburton by getting a job cleaning their toilets. And then he sets himself up as some sort of hero to “women and minorities” in another comment, totally oblivious to the fact that some of us disabled people out here, whom he thinks should just get a job to make a difference, are actually disabled female people. Disabled=minority too, in case he needs a clue. He’s a bloody hypocrite.

57. missdevore - 17 June 2007

geez, I’m not advocating eugenics. my original comments described the context of a society wanting to restrict women’s reproductive choices in terms of abortion-i.e. regulating that, but letting market forces determine fertilization.

So what would be your response to those who insisted Terry Schiavo be kept alive?

58. marisacat - 17 June 2007

well we know where the fundies are and they determine law in this country.

There are societal pressures, well outlined in the threads and whichI know from reading and being at a firm that handled the first class action suit agaisnt Kaiser for denying women in vitro in the mid 80s…

there are societal pressures and “best advice” from the physicians to NOT implant all 6 or 7 nor to refuse selective reduction.

I am fine with that. How many, outside of RELIGIOUS pressure want to be “mother of a litter”, aside from the (also mentioned in the thread) the lure of being on Oprah.

I am not fine with regulating abortion.

It is up tot he family, just as in Schiavo. Which was an American Passion Play.

Frankly I prefer Oberammergau. But no, I get the fucked fundie passion plays.

REGUALTING reproductive, choice, whether birth or abortion, whether forced birth or forced abortion is playing to the fundies.

Which hardly matters with all the pro life pro war judges the Democrats let pass to the federal bench in 25 years.

The language that Kennedy used is the law of the land.

Religious authority.

I am opposed to regulating reproductive choices. End.

And believe me aacross 20 years in hosptials I saw the other end of it, science outstripping peoples ability to cope: end of life issues.

But, all is either business in this country, ie, in vitro business (did you note all the find upstanding white people in that thread who reproduced only due to fertility treatments… and in other threads they moan for adoption, what a HOOT!) or the fucked fundies.

Read the thread again: Many who have given birth would be restricted from doing so again, under a regulation that entitles past performance (“knowing the outcome”) to determine choice.

59. supervixen - 17 June 2007

MCat: as the Dionne mother said decades ago, to her adult children, you made me the mother of a litter. You made me an animal.

Holy shit, did she really say that??

I finally got around to checking out the abortion diary (things have been hectic here – crazy neighbor trying to shoot my cat Martin for the sin of killing a chipmunk on his property – I was on the phone all day yesterday with the cops and the Animal Control people – quite a fracas). It’s interesting, there are some prolifers who have come out of the woodwork since I left DKos. Or at least I don’t ever remember seeing them hold forth in abortion threads before. Among the notable ones are Mother of Zeus, DFWmom, marykk, and Leaves on the Current, teacherken’s dear spouse. Why am I not surprised about that last one. Of course a couple of them (MoZ and DFWmom) claim to be prochoice but allow their little violins to squeak on endlessly playing the same tunes the anti-abortion folks enjoy.

It looks like Dr. Harrison got into a tangle with shanikka. Too bad, because I had a modicum of respect for her before reading that exchange. Now I think she’s a pompous ass.

60. D. Throat - 17 June 2007
61. marisacat - 17 June 2007

omigod.

I am supposed to read Stoller’s entire life history, with 3 generations of antecedents?

I am skimming. Very fast.

62. D. Throat - 17 June 2007

L I A R:

Now, I have worked in politics as a professional, but unlike professional political people who blog, I began my career in politics blogging. My career path of going back and forth between the blogosphere and the political world will become increasingly common. And that’s where MyDD comes in. It’s not the first major blog I was on. That’s actually the Blogging of the President 2004, a mix of talk radio and blogging, which, ironically, was a group blog to which I invited Chris to post. He didn’t remember this when he hired me for MyDD after I got off the Corzine campaign, but I think our writing styles and ideological affinity just mesh well and always have. I certainly have always seen him as the leader of this community, and have always felt immensely privileged to be his colleage.

Anyway, after the Corzine campaign, because of both Jerome and Chris, I came here, and began work with Chris, Jonathan, Jerome, and all of you on the progressive movement from the outside. I’ve been enormously proud of the work you’ve enabled, the feedback, the spirited discussions, and the collaborative nature of MyDD. Jerome, Bowers, me, and Singer operate in an environment, a space, where you keep us honest and prod us to improve. Being yelled at every day in good faith is the essence of democracy, of a civil society that pushes its leaders to be better than they ever though possible, and that allows anyone to emerge as a leader should they face down the twin fears of failure and the learned disempowerment of TV and elite culture. As a result of your comments and feedback, my writing, indeed my very identity, has gradually adopted into a pugilistic yet playfully moralistic tone, which mixes in policy discussions, political analysis, and inspections of bad and faith actors and underlying institutional and personal motives. I remember a meeting I had with Pelosi, prior to the 2006 elections, where I asked her to call the Republicans liars on the House floor when she felt they lied. She said she wouldn’t, and in the conversation pointed out that the use of that word would strip her of the right to speak on the floor for that day under the rules of the House. Perfect, I said, that’s a terrific PR move. And I wouldn’t let up, until her communications director pulled me away. ‘You’re just like your blog’, is what a friend told me afterwards. And that’s because of you, because you have helped me to understand what I never did before, that there is a thirst for people who have strong voices, for people who speak in politics as a moral story. That’s how you talk about politics, so that’s how I now talk about it. I have learned that might does not make right, right makes might.

Funny how Stoller completely blows over that he was and IS working for Simon Rosenberg of the NDN/DLC…. so much that he was a member of Rosenberg’s campaign staff for DNC Chairman against H. Dean.

Why do you think that Stoller is “forgetting” to talk about his mentor and idol, Simon Rosenberg, of the right wing democrats?????

Well if this post is any indication of where the “new partnership” between Bowers and Stoller is going…. then it is a pack of lies.

63. D. Throat - 17 June 2007

I could on get up to the part of his convenient omission of Simon Rosenberg and the NDN/DLC…. after which it was all a blurrrrrrrr…

64. marisacat - 17 June 2007

oh heading for the second glass of champagne…
poor Kid O made my day:

kudos and best of luck Matt (3.00 / 1)

In telling your story this way, you are drawing from Arthure Silber’s phrase: the power of narrative.

The idea that there is power in stories is something I’ve tried to put into my writing as well. The story of the Democratic party is far from over…and changing as we speak.

k/o: 2006 politics and local blogs
by kid oakland on Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 01:46:09 PM EST

invoking ARTHUR SILBER no less.

hahahahahah.

65. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

This is just nauseating:

As a result of your comments and feedback, my writing, indeed my very identity, has gradually adopted into a pugilistic yet playfully moralistic tone, which mixes in policy discussions, political analysis, and inspections of bad and faith actors and underlying institutional and personal motives.

My Dog – how they love to talk about themselves.

66. supervixen - 17 June 2007

OMFG! I got no further than this:

Anna used to say that she was the first woman in New York to buy her own mink coat, and my Mom and I have taken up this tradition and become stalwart feminists.

before falling off my chair laughing.

This guy can’t be for real.

67. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

Oh, and Happy Father’s Day to anyone that may apply to.

68. missdevore - 17 June 2007

Do we not support class distinctions if a fertility specialist can make big bucks off families hoping for miraculous survival of multiple births, when it seems likely that these offspring may be impaired to the point where they cannot live independently?

69. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

Okay now, stop. Seriously. I need Dramamine. Stat.

70. D. Throat - 17 June 2007

POLITICAL SCAM 2.0

They are all on to phase 2 of the scam. KO wrote a disgusting diary on “Making Progressive Alliances” and the evils of “purity”…. of course none of the operatives asked why the GOP in which they adore so much NEVER called the right wing fundies purists.

The Darling GOP was able to make strong alliances between the Fundies, AIPAC, OIL and corporations…. and none of them called each other “purists”…. perhaps KO should read a little more as to the definitition of “alliance”…. cuz in my book it doesn’t mean making the “alliance” members give up their principle “For the good of the whole”… it means as in the case of the GOP that Corporations who couldn’t give a flying fuck about religion like Walmart refuse to sell OTC Plan B cuz their “team members” don’t like it. It does not mean like the “progressives” pretend that you back stab pro choice because you don’t want to upset… the “other” side.

They can all go to hell…. they have been and are nothing but CONMEN…. Armstrong started his career in selling worthless stock… now he is selling worthless politicians… same shit.

71. earth to meg - 17 June 2007

Somebody in the choice joyce diary yesterday mentioned the forced abortion policy in China, and somehow I got to thinking about if we ended up in some twisted situation in this country where they went the other way and actually forced poor women or women of color to abort rather than keep. Either extreme is offensive, but the racism and classism underlying the fundie and conservative thinking (if you could call it “thinking”) in this country made me wonder about that.

Fuck, how did we get to this point where we have to fight this shit.

72. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Miss D

America, no news, is rife with class distinctions.

BTW, the class action suit at my firm was won. Kaiser had to cover in vitro attempts.

However one woman iwth a really smart atty, declined to join the suit. her atty advised her, the suit would be won and, by not hving joined it, she would receive (be awarded) by kaiser wtih more “tries” covered.

Exactly, precisely what happened. She paid privately for that advise and got what she paid for.

in vitro is big business and birth production is wanted by the government (at base the reason for restricting and overturning abortion and hampering even birth control, eventually) for their long wars tru this century.

Sorry, not for legal regulation of reproductive choices.

Tho as I said, the nation is too far gone.

73. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

They wanted armageddon, after all. I’m sure the rapture ready folks are ecstatic.

JERUSALEM – Two Katyusha rockets fell on northern Israel Sunday, the first fired from Lebanon since last summer’s inconclusive war with Hezbollah guerrillas. No one was hurt, but there was some damage, police and the military said.

Hezbollah denied firing the rockets in a broadcast on the militant group’s Al-Manar television.

The attack raised the possibility of Israeli reprisal and a new flareup between the two countries. It came as Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was arriving in the United States for talks.

“Israel will not succumb to this provocation but will monitor the situation carefully,” said an official with Olmert, indicating that Israel would not hit back. The official requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation.

Who does that official think he’s kidding with Barak playing Rambo now?

74. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

C’mon now, AP:

The 2006 war started with a cross-border raid by Hezbollah in which three Israeli soldiers were killed and two captured. Israel launched a full-scale air offensive against Hezbollah targets and Lebanese infrastructure. The war ended inconclusively after 34 days.

The IDF got its butt kicked. That’s pretty damn conclusive.

75. marisacat - 17 June 2007

well nobody seems to concerned that a HUGE number don’t believe in evolution. That 3 R stood oon a stage and said they believe in creationism. That Brownback said the product of rape is beautiful and the mother should (this is implied) be grateful.

All for God.

Look years ago, the UK made a decision about stem cell (for research). Before 2 weeks, think it was. They basded it on the science available at the time

Does that sound like America? Anytime soon?

76. D. Throat - 17 June 2007

Marisacat have you ever thought of writing a book? Really, I just love your wit:

I am supposed to read Stoller’s entire life history, with 3 generations of antecedents?

I am serious. Places like Lulu.com has FREE self publishing as it is print on demand. An anthology of your favorite posts of the years with commentary…. way better than the shit the so called progressives are pulling out of their asses… I mean “Crashing the Gates” ..was an abomination…. one of your post was better than that NDN/DLC dictation of Kos and the Conman.

77. marisacat - 17 June 2007

SV

thanks for the tip in Shanikka. Will go back to the choice joyce diary (left it at about 140 I think)

Shanikka always wants us to consider her daughter.

I don’t know, figure it out at home.

It got old a couple years ago.

78. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

“Crashing the Crashing”, D Throat? 😉

79. ms_xeno - 17 June 2007

some twisted situation in this country where they went the other way and actually forced poor women or women of color to abort rather than keep.

etm, when I was on the Ms. Boards, an alarming number of White women did indeed support such homegrown efforts. Like that grotesque CRACK group, which basically bribes women with drug problems/offenses to get depo and the like. To cite just one example of how this culture loves to control the bodies of women. And the lower you are on the cultural food chain, the more control you’re subject to. Often with other women, obstensible “liberals” doing much of the flag-waving for it.

>: Read boards by American WOC long enough, and it’s clearly not a new, or isolated phenomenon. It’s been going on since half past fucking forever.

80. missdevore - 17 June 2007

MCAT-you deferred to the “family” decision in Schiavo’s case. Well, it was obviously not unanimous; that was the crux. Which illustrates my point in a backhanded way–you might then say that a husband’s right to make a decision trumps the biological family. But if same husband demanded his rights with respect to his wife’s pregnancy which she wished to terminate, and he didn’t, where do you go with that? Beyond issues of capacity?

Rights are not natural, they are social constructs of human history. And, as such, they must necessarily undergo examination from the society in which they are contended.

You mention that social pressures and best judgement should prevail with these fertility doctors.

But “social pressure” and “judgements” have prevailed in some places to the point where reproductive options are scarce to non-existent.

All I am arguing for is a recognition that there be some nuance allowed to contribute to arguments. My gut feeling is that the writer of that diary used a rhetorical device in titling it “I guess I’m not pro-choice”, to draw attention to an issue and not necessarily propagandize. I realize that there may be many “operatives” at that site, but I am not so cynical to think everyone who posts there is an operative with an agenda. hell-you, Mitm, & I have posted there; some people who participate in this site still post there.

81. ms_xeno - 17 June 2007

What D. Throat said. Whatever her good intentions, I sure as fuck don’t want everyone thinking Marcotte is my duly-chosen representative out there in the world of bloggers making books.

82. D. Throat - 17 June 2007

Just think of how many cans of Fancy Feast you could buy.

I just feel personally insulted to have to read that kind of drivel from Stoller and Bowers… it is down right disgraceful.

I would love to read an anthology of your post with what seems like a very eventful life.

Believe it or not one of favorite authors is Elizabeth Zimmermann, SV may know of her. She wrote knitting books …but she weaves in her own stories between the patterns of her life growing up rich with servants in Europe until she came to the states as a refugee after the war. How her knitting was first a hobby that turned into a necessity that turned once again into a love. Fascinating woman.

I am sick of having to wade thru this crap of unintelligent people… telling their unimaginative stories… so if you ever had an inkling please save us from this underwhelming mediocrity…found in the blogs.

83. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

I was a Canadian pinko commie operative when I posted there – fully funded by Karl Marx, who never actually died. He’s actually living in an underground bunker in northern Manitoba and sends me checks every six months. God bless him! (hehehe)

84. ms_xeno - 17 June 2007

SV, forgot to compliment on the culinary cat pic the other day. He was one handsome soul. Also now I’m craving lentil salad. Damn you ! My kitchen is an effing disaster. Unfair. :p

catnip, since my birthday is tomorrow, it often does fall on or near Father’s Day. The old man always said that my biggest problems were that I took after him. 😀 His birthday would have been on 6/4, BTW.

85. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

since my birthday is tomorrow

Yay! More cheesecake! (I’m so selfish. Sorry, it’s the addiction to cream cheese. I wonder if there’s a detox for that or Cream Cheesers Anonymous maybe?…not that I’d go.)

Make sure you have a happy one. How old will you be again? 29? 😉

86. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Did you take a good look at the Schindlers? And read the legal dox in the various court “events” — across years (15 iirc)? Did you see whom they relied on ?

And read the autopsy report? And the best advice of medicine?

Did you see who demonstrated on the lawn right at the entrance to a hospice? Fr Pavone and Randall Terry. among others. Later joined by poor fucked jesse jackson as he is just “gone” (and smells federal monies if he plays all of this right).

The Schindlers had the support of the state, in the person of Jeb.

Well i stated my opinion of the diary. I also said Chuy is likely unaware of what he she is doing. I also have an email that says poor Chuy does not know much about the in vitro pocess based on the diary….

So what, it is an OPINION.

She (Schiavo) had a husband. One she married. One who even got a RN license so he could have greater standing in her on going care, a medical professional license.

I watched the circus that took iirc a month or more. Friends of friends, all across cable accusing him of murder.. based on what? His wife’s sister openly accsusing him of murder (all of this in the case of the day she fell ill). An EASTER display for the xtian pro life community.

you had religious extremists, supported by the most extreme of the pro life infrastructure in the country agaisnt the husband and the best medical advice. Attempting to let her go. Something that happens every day in this country.

They did not like his choice. And if what they displayed is familial love, it sure was ugly.

as i said, read the thread. Under regulation, I doubt many in that thread would be allowed a second whack at reproducing. What with stories of invitro and at least one story of a preemie with a 75K NICU cost. A few years ago. probably 150K now.

WIth regulation, they would be cut off.

I ahve pretty well said what I have to say.

87. Arthur Silber - 17 June 2007

Ahem. Could someone puh-leez bring this fairly detailed analysis of Stoller dreck to the attention of those who so heinously misappropriate my name? Key paragraphs (which you probably have seen before, please indulge me):

>>>The balance of Stoller’s post, which identifies strategies that are not effective and those that might be, leads one to conclude that a rather unsophisticated irony might be the sought-after tone in remarks such as, “it’s not actually easy to have an impact on the political system.” It might be observed that for a political operative, for whom effective and clear communication is essential, the intended message and tone could be conveyed with just a bit more precision. And Stoller seems to genuinely believe that he is identifying an unappreciated fact that escapes most people when he remarks, “It is in fact a lot of work to get a change to happen.” What can one say? Perhaps: D’oh! So let us be fair: let no one accuse certain progressive operatives of intellectual brilliance or original insight.

True, Stoller acknowledges that, “There’s a small group of people who make policy in politics,” but his overall argument (and his writing more generally) makes clear that the full reality of the complex mechanisms through which power is achieved, maintained, expanded and directed is entirely beyond his grasp. (It is possible that Stoller understands all of this, and also knows the vacuous phrases that he needs to throw up and out periodically, to assuage certain of his less than bright followers. If he does understand it, that, of course, would be unspeakably worse. But I seriously doubt he’s that smart.) And then, of course, there is the unstated but clearly implied self-congratulation at the end: “There are big opportunities here. Seize them. No one is stopping you but you.” You can be assured that Stoller is not stopping Stoller. His post is entirely appropriately titled, “Building Power.” I note, without further explication, that you should read Stoller’s post in conjunction with a genuinely awful entry from Chris Bowers, and you will then understand why I now think of them as the Evil Twins of Progressive Politics. The lust for power consumes them — and I implore you to remember that power always must mean power over other people. As those who seek power always do, they regularly camouflage their lust with sentimental tripe about “transparency, honesty and civic democracy.” If people studied and remembered history, they would realize that every leader, including the most brutally vicious and murderous, has always appealed to “the will of the people.” It is on the basis of such platitudinous, vapid twaddle that crimes of immense scale and horror are committed.))

Cheerie ‘bye,

Arthur

88. Arthur Silber - 17 June 2007

Hmm. I did have a brief concluding comment, which appears to have been cut off. I just said I’d like to know whom I can sue, and I wonder if there might be any money in it…:>)))

Ah, it’s Sunday! I can have a drink for brunch!

You can hold the brunch.

A.

89. brinn - 17 June 2007

I am having a bit of a dilemna — I want to share the baseball pics with you all, but I don’t want to post the URL here (as that is waay to public for my comfort level).

If anyone has any suggestion about how to go about inviting you to view the pics aside from having you give me your email addys so’s I can mail you the URL, please let me know.

If not, send me a message at oakmontcat@hotmail.com and I email you an invite! 😉

90. marisacat - 17 June 2007
91. ms_xeno - 17 June 2007

[passes Mr. Silber fresh hot coffee with a slug of bourbon] Stick around, Everyone. At 4 PM mr_xeno fires up some marinated chicken on the grill, and I break out the bottle of chilled Lillet that I bought myself as a pre-B’day gift. catnip, don’t worry. There’s snooty bottled lemonade, too.

Better make some nice red-berry sauce for that cheesecake, now that you’ve outed yourself as a Commie Op. How retro !

92. missdevore - 17 June 2007

well, you have answered as if I was completely unaware of what went on in the Schiavo case. I realize your age and far more sophisticated political experiences–and I am not being sarcastic-from your descriptions, your parents were obviously more educated and sophisticated than mine, as was your life experience.

you have not addressed, and seemingly contradict yourself, when you say social pressures will sort out the multiple birth phenom. you abhor the social pressures brought to bear on Schiavo’s case.

93. marisacat - 17 June 2007

brinn

I sent you an email. If you like, send me the URL to the pics.

I have no ideas for how else to do it.

94. brinn - 17 June 2007

Will do MCat — any other takers, just let me know….

It’ll be about 30-40 minutes, as the pics are still uploading to webshots, so look for the email in about an hour!

95. BooMan - 17 June 2007

Marisacat-

How many drugs do you go thru in a given day?

96. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Well Miss Devore if

best medical advice and

the rigors of raising multiple-child (as in more than 3 – 4 spread across years) families in a near morbidly competitive, cost frantic world

is comparable to the ENTIRE infrstructure of the hard right, xtian right on display with (media support) in Pinellas co FL…

that would be news to me.

You seem to want regulation for reproductive choice. I do not. And somehow a vicious, cancerous game that played out in FL is valid for the discussion.

Sorry, not revisiting this. Esp as you now want to compare, in some accusatory way, personal life history.

97. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Poor martin.

wants attention.

Don’t you ahve some sudsy beer to consume at Drinking Illiberally?

98. brinn - 17 June 2007

oh goody! BooMan is back! Martin, you are a despicable excuse for a human being! Get a fucking job!

99. D. Throat - 17 June 2007

I think the BBB really thought that people are stupid enough to fall for Bowers and Stoller’s Political Scam 2.0.

Been there …done that … got and autographed copy of Crashing the Gates….

100. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Arthur

thanks for the link. Off to read.

=^..^=

101. D. Throat - 17 June 2007

This whole blogosphere pyramid scheme is very similar to the chapter in Freakonomics: Why Do Drug Dealers Still Live with Their Moms?

Along with the bad pay, the foot soldiers faced terrible job conditions. For starters, they had to stand on a street corner all day and do business with crackheads. (The gang members were strongly advised against using the product themselves, advice that was enforced by beatings if necessary.) Foot soldiers also risked arrest and, more worri- some, violence. Using the gang’s financial documents and the rest of Venkatesh’s research, it is possible to construct an adverse-events index of J. T.’s gang during the four years in question. The results are astonishingly bleak. If you were a member of J. T.’s gang for all four years, here is the typical fate you would have faced during that period:

* Number of times arrested 5.9
* Number of nonfatal wounds or injuries 2.4 (not including injuries meted out by the gang itself for rules violations)
* Chance of being killed 1 in 4

A 1-in-4 chance of being killed! Compare these odds to being a timber cutter, which the Bureau of Labor Statistics calls the most dangerous job in the United States. Over four years’ time, a timber cutter would stand only a 1-in-200 chance of being killed. Or compare the crack dealer’s odds to those of a death row inmate in Texas, which executes more prisoners than any other state. In 2003, Texas put to death twenty-four inmates-or just 5 percent of the nearly 500 inmates on its death row during that time. Which means that you stand a greater chance of dying while dealing crack in a Chicago housing project than you do while sitting on death row in Texas. So if crack dealing is the most dangerous job in America, and if the salary is only $3.30 an hour, why on earth would anyone take such a job?

Which begs the same question… why are these Kossack (including MyDD, Booman et al)… willing to put up with shitty wages … for what?

Well Bowers and Stoller can no tell you “To become MADE men”. They put up with the low wages just like the small fry crack dealers on the street… in hopes that one day they too can be made “Made Men”. I have always assumed that “they” made Kos a rich man in only to be be able to control the blogosphere. There is no other reason for morons like Elise, McJoan, Miss Laura, Luscious Vagina, Armando, Nightprowlkitty, Kid Oakland, Bowers and Stoller etc.

It is a beautiful and most effective means in taming the unwashed massed…. throw a few silver coins at them and watch how quickly they sell out their principles and the principles of the “movements” they are supposedly promoting.

A foot soldier had plenty in common with a McDonald’s burger flipper or a Wal-Mart shelf stocker. In fact, most of J. T.’s foot soldiers also held minimum-wage jobs in the legitimate sector to supplement their skimpy illicit earnings. The leader of another crack gang once told Venkatesh that he could easily afford to pay his foot soldiers more, but it wouldn’t be prudent. “You got all these niggers below you who want your job, you dig?” he said. “So, you know, you try to take care of them, but you know, you also have to show them you the boss. You always have to get yours first, or else you really ain’t no leader. If you start taking losses, they see you as weak and shit.”

Remember it was less than a month ago Bowers was claiming that it was “Okay” for progressive whites… NOT to talk to people of color… they can all go to HELL.

102. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

Arthur,

Thanks for the link to your post about Bowers’ “revolution” spiel. I was looking for his pontifications the other day. Frankly, I’m still in a state of shock after all of these months over what he wrote a la “is this guy for real??”.

ms x,

Is that lemonade made by snooty people or lemonade with snoot in it?

Marisacat-

How many drugs do you go thru in a given day?

Why? Did you run out, Martin? Maybe you just grab some from a kid in a school playground. You seem to think that’s an effective way of getting stuff.

103. supervixen - 17 June 2007

LOL, “sudsy beer”

I saw the final episode of Star Wars the other day on TV. It was terrible. Though Ewan McG tried his damndest, and did a pretty good job of imitated the clipped tones of the young Alec Guinness. Anyway I cracked up when people were talking about the “Younglings” – all I could think of was Yuengling, that mediocre beer so well beloved by PA collegiate types. But Martin and his tasteless cronies probably swill something even worse, like Genny Cream Ale.

104. liberalcatnip - 17 June 2007

Looks like MOB is itching for another crisis so he can up his stats again.

105. brinn - 17 June 2007

MCat — just sent you 2 emails with links — let me know what you think! 😉

Anyone else want to see pix?

106. missdevore - 17 June 2007

I didn’t demand regulation. I only suggested that your example of letting social pressures determine things wasn’t entirely realistic.

When I suggest that the “family decision” was at the crux of the Schiavo thing–which by the way, I supported the husband’s decision 100%–you shoot back with your evaluation of the parent’s love, which you think is ugly. Still, it is clear someone makes evaluative decisions. If I support your contention about Schiavo’s parents-which I essentially do–how is it different from the elitism you seem to accuse the diarist at dk? Marisacat can decide to null the parent’s case in Schiavo after determining the ugliness of their love, but a dk diarist cannot judge the quality of a parent’s & medical establishment choices made in a multiple birth context.

107. supervixen - 17 June 2007

Miss D: a dk diarist cannot judge the quality of a parent’s & medical establishment choices made in a multiple birth context.

I agree with you on that point. I read that diary but the selfrighteous judgmentalism evident in both the diary and the comments was so offputting that I didn’t delve very far into the discussion.

Judging and condemning others’ behavior is what the Kossites do best. They would fit in just fine persecuting “witches” in Salem.

108. missdevore - 17 June 2007

107–uh, it is not as if I have no comprehension as to the selfrighteous judgementalism that occurs on dk.

I might be saying “it can happen here”, too.

109. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Miss D

you are on your own. Not revisiting.

110. missdevore - 17 June 2007

As I figured. Au revoir.

111. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Well Miss D

if someone else wishes to discuss it further with you, fine with me. The thread will stay open.

But I have said what I hv to say. And decline to compare personal histories.

As if that is a determination. OF anything.

112. colleen - 17 June 2007

Marisacat-
How many drugs do you go thru in a given day?

Hey Martin, like a shark you should keep moving on or die, you fat drunken fuck.

113. ms_xeno - 17 June 2007

Hey, don’t be dissing the fat and/or (recently) long-term jobless by lumping us in with BooBoohead, Please.

Tsk. After an offer of free booze ‘n bbq, this is the thanks I get ?

114. marisacat - 17 June 2007

oh Martin is just out begging.

Just remember, Martin… you are not banned here. However nonsensical and self-revealing your spurts are.

Take care and work work work on that blog… you hear? MyDD decimated, a real chance for you to move on up to the East Side.

LOL Just think, more blogger conf calls.

Lordy!

115. wilfred - 17 June 2007

Tacky Martin. I would have once thought that kind of stuff was beneath you, but sadly no longer do.

For someone who appears to knock back quite a bit of the sauce and God knows what else, that is truly the pot (lol) calling the kettle black.

In all the years I’ve blogged with Marisa at Dkos, LSF and beyond I’ve never witnessed her under the influence, not once. If only you or I could say the same. I’ve regretably hit the blogs a few times after margarita Sundays nights with Edward (not today) and have seen you admit to the same on many more instances than that. You should apologize.

116. missdevore - 17 June 2007

Well, you’ve offered your personal histories in some way here, and I merely addressed you as my perception of yours. I.E., it seemed you were from a far more sophisticated political background than my own. It did give me a sense of your credibility, with respect to mine.

However, an issue that I thought had interesting implications for discussion, for as many reasons as I have stated, seemed to me to be swept with this broad brush that almost anyone who posts a diary at dk is a propagandist or operative–oh yes, I know you make exceptions. I disagree with your assessment that the diary was propagandizing regulation for the sake of regulation.

There are issues that bear more serious discussion, and we become self-conciously inhibited from discussing them, for fear we feed interpretations and directions that would be inimical to ours.

Case in point-mix the issue of “illegal immigrant” children in Neonatal intensive care units. Been there. Lack of prenatal care & low economic status fosters a situation where children may be born premature or with grave medical problems. Illegal immigrant parents may not pursue prenatal care for fear of being found illegal. Likely, if they had remained in their native country, they would not have access to superior neonatal care.

Ultimately, the people profiting from this situation will never have to pay the price–all down the line–Americans, overall, historically have cheaper fruits & vegetables because of itinerant Mexican farmworkers. Corporate produce companies can garner better profits. But there is also a class of people who cannot afford healthcare, the cost of which is drained by critical care situations for desperate people. Somebody has to get screwed scenarios. Who decides? What is “fairness” under these circumstances?

I personally don’t think we pay enough attention to all the variables. Ideology from whatever side, doesn’t mean shit if we cannot find a way to talk and come up with the best possible solution.

I’m not so sure if personal history is so completely indeterminate, but my sense of where you are and where I am, and the “thrust” of the blog, will most likely leave me talking to myself. I’m quite experienced at that, but it was a sport I tried to give up.

No hostilities, but why talk without possibility of dialogue?

117. marisacat - 17 June 2007

wilfred

I am disinterested in apologies from Martin, but I understand the fairness issue of pointing out to Martin that what he said is offensive and presumptuous…

LOL I think it reflects fear.

It, any apology from the snits, would mean literally nothing.

**************

Miss D

I put forth my opinions. Quite without reservation.

I suggest you re read where you raised personal histories.

It ws effectively the end of the conversation for me.

But now it is about immigration issues? First it ws should anyone be allowed to procreate (please re read your own comments), then to Schiavo.. then now to issues of immigration and … more.

I am sorry, I doubt I could keep with the moving ball.

But the thread will stay open.. you are welcome to continue.

For the umpteenth time I have said what I have to say.

118. NYCee - 17 June 2007

Dont mean a thing if it aint got that zing!

I too had to laugh over the lemonade stand, Schumer and Rahm lurking near the “fake children.” Good one, Marisa.

Also had a laugh (a few looURks back) at imagery painted by a certain lass o’ the board, name of ms_xeno. Something to do with kicking orange mules with/off her feet, and, I think, the mad swishing of a feather boa. Worked for me.

Speaking of cardboard, that is exactly the word that comes to mind lately when I think of Abbas in his alleged role as Chief Broker for the Palestinians. On call! At the ready! In the wings! Waiting… waiting… waiting… (He will die waiting, if not in this brand spanking new highly ENGINEERED civil war)…

It was sad but not surprising to me that Fatah and USisrael have been snaking their way into toxic coaliton to smite Hamas and serve their own ends, which is not about serving the Palestinians at all. A knotty tangle of snakes. A tangled web of snakes…

Thinking back on it, I never once saw an ounce of passion in Abbas, never heard anything escape his lips that showed outrage over the wrongness perpetuated upon his people. I never saw an impassioned, unwavering sense of purpose in him to get them their due.

Like I said, cardboard. Looks like the winds of civil war have blown that cover over.

119. missdevore - 17 June 2007

It’s about acknowledging complexity of issues. I raised the immigration issue in the context of care for preemies who don’t have a chance due to their “illegal” position, paralleling people “with choices” who actively decide to give birth to preemies that don’t have a chance. Both from entirely different circumstances.

The question would be “how does one effect the most fair social policy with some of these facts on the ground?”

Well, although I realize you leave it open to others to discuss this, there is no real discussion thus far. Judgements and influence always exist.

Tis the way of the world, and I am only saying that I can’t find a discussion here.

120. bayprairie - 17 June 2007

i feel the diaryist is masking promotion for legislative uterine control behind the the tired old saw of “concern for the innocent lives of the babies.

it’s always about the babies.

this nation has somewhat unregulated choice in a citizen’s operation of transportation technology too, i.e. car. that technology kills far more “innocent lives” than what concerns him so greatly.

not a word about that though, and why?

because the diaryist benefits from it. because it isn’t directly a uterine issue.
the post is an uniformed, simlistic opinion about a very complex ethical issue and the opinion isn’t not based on knowledge of the issue itself but the diaryist’s visceral reaction to a specific happenstance in which things admittedly didn’t work out as intended. there’s also some personal experience involved with a relative, judging by a comment in the thread. if he was seriously examining the issue he’d have to weigh the instances of womnen who took the identical drug(s) and birthed successfully.

imho it’s best left to the professionals, the ethicists and the courts to work out. let the law evolve. many women and couples get great benefits from reproductive technologies but it is a technology that directly affects life and death. so yeah it goes south and its sad to see. but you open a box of far worse things if you try and legislate against every poor outcome in this world.

i don’t see a case for only permitting only reproductive technologies with 100% success rates.

121. moiv - 17 June 2007

MissD, unless I am mistaking your point, we will agree that the current facts on the ground exist as a result of the social policies we have now. IOW, it isn’t an accident that it has worked out that way.

From where I stand (in a spot, and with a POV, admittedly far outside the norm), it’s all pretty much a done deal. At this point, the relevance of imagining how to bring about a more just social policy ranks right up there with debating how many fetuses can dance on the head of an archbishop.

Until and unless this country decides it’s had enough of totalitarianism wrapped in religion wrapped in the flag–and it looks as though it’s gonna take long enough that I don’t expect to live to see it–even a fair-to-middling holding action can be counted as a victory.

122. D. Throat - 17 June 2007

The point of the matter is that a doctor can give a 23 year old fertility treatments which are proven to be cancerous in many women (à la Elizabeth Edwards) with the blessing of the wing nuts…. yet same said wing nuts are fighting to outlaw the dispensing of contraception.

Where are the Dems… refusing to allow military bases to dispense Plan B. Oh, we are so very very fucked to quoth our blog mistress.

123. marisacat - 17 June 2007

New Thread

LINK

124. ms_xeno - 17 June 2007

NYCee, always nice to be appreciated. 8)

Wish I coulda’ gone a-marchin’ with ya’ last weekend. There was a rally near here yesterday in support of the Mexican deportees and their families, as well. But I was too busy doing my impression of rain-soaked newspaper to attend. Bah. :/

125. marisacat - 17 June 2007

Think this link belongs in this thread… if anyone else is interested, the exchange between Dr Harrison and Shanikka.

Luv the reinforcement of the Dred Scott case from her. Later, dismissal of a poster as a “white woman”. After pulling rank for time at the site. That was a fun read.

Does anyone else remember the personal details of Shanikka’s life? details she exposed over and over, herself? When she arrived at the site late fall early winter 2004.

She lives in a plural marriage. I have no idea the details of whose is legal with whom, but she is (iirc) in a married relationship iwth a white male and also involved are a white woman and a black woman.

This so reminds me of the propagandist at DKOS and at BMT (he had been Liberation Learning [if you want to see propaganda check those diaries out!], then later he used a name, like ”Tom + Something”) who would post diaries that abortion is IMMORAL.

Except he was gay.

Both living situations, Shanikka’s and Liberation learning’s are thought to be immoral by all sorts of people. For all sorts of reasons. Gee catch all the stammer from Edwards and the decisive take from Pace, that neither Obama nor Hillary wanted to touch iwth a 100 foot pole about gays…

They never think of that tho.

126. supervixen - 17 June 2007

ms x, thank you for your commiseration about my cat. I’ll type in the lentil salad recipe for you soon – it’s very easy to make.

DThroat: did Eliz E take a fertility treatment? For some reason I thought they used a surrogate mom.

A Silber, from above (just saw it):

.” I note, without further explication, that you should read Stoller’s post in conjunction with a genuinely awful entry from Chris Bowers, and you will then understand why I now think of them as the Evil Twins of Progressive Politics. The lust for power consumes them — and I implore you to remember that power always must mean power over other people. As those who seek power always do, they regularly camouflage their lust with sentimental tripe about “transparency, honesty and civic democracy.” If people studied and remembered history, they would realize that every leader, including the most brutally vicious and murderous, has always appealed to “the will of the people.” It is on the basis of such platitudinous, vapid twaddle that crimes of immense scale and horror are committed.))

Right the fuck on! Those two are classic fascists, and ignorant ones to boot. Observing them and the DKos Troll Patrol – Elise/clonecone/PaintyKat/taylormattd/michael85 and all the other jackbooted thugs – I really wonder what the hell is wrong with people.

127. supervixen - 17 June 2007

Yikes, shanikka is out of her fucking tree. I can’t BELIEEEEEEEVEshe’s trotting out, and beating on, the old dead horse of “Women know what they’re getting into when they fuck, so they deserve to suffer and give birth to an unwanted child.” What a disgusting, anti-woman mindset.

And the other dead horse, “you’re a rich white woman so you don’t understand anything”. That is the biggest copout of them all. Newsflash: there are plenty of rich white women who are full of shit. And there are plenty of underprivileged black women who are too.

I didn’t know that about her personal life. Not sure I want to know any more details. But it’s true that the ones who are most vindictive in their moralizing are often the ones who are most profligate in their personal immorality.

128. marisacat - 17 June 2007

SV

she [Shanikka] always does that.. has for years (well 2.5 that I know about). Same drivel, different day.

LOVED her last lecture to Joyce. A reading list.

yes EE did take fertility treatments.

The first one that I recall where the connection was made was the editor of hmmm British Vogue. She had ovarian cancer, and it was tracked (in interviews she herself did) as possibly connected to the fertility treatments she underwent 20 years earlier.

129. missdevore - 17 June 2007

{sigh} I actually met shanikka in person, so it’s going to be a lot tougher for me to dismiss what she has to say, based on your info about her. Based on sites you claim to almost never read.

Like I said–you do make claims to some info that many of us have never heard. Still, I think it would be important to back them up. You did so on Luscious Vagina. but I haven’t the faintest idea where you are coming from today.

I’m just tottering from an immense respect I have had for you for some significant time, to what I feel is a summary dismissal.

I realise you have not made any claims to represent anyone other than yourself.

But implicit in one’s having a blog at all, is a desire to communicate. For some reason.

You’ve lost me. And I more than realize you could give a rat’s ass.

Still-we be humans at those crossroads.

130. supervixen - 17 June 2007

Miss D, may I very respectfully suggest that you appear to be in a hypersensitive mood? I know, I’m in one too today, and so is everyone in my household. We’ve been sniping at each other all day. Must be sunspots or some such thing.

Anyway I will say from experience that when in such moods it’s not a good idea to Slam The Iron Door on anyone, especially someone for whom you have had great respect in the past.

Feel free to tell me to fuck off if you so desire. I won’t hold it against you 🙂

On another, hopefully happier, note: I’m going to St Petersburg Fla at the end of the month to attend a workshop. Any VAGs there? Or who know the area? I’ve never been to Fla before so it will be fun. The meetings are all in the evenings so we have the days free. One of the other workshop attendees has offered to take us on a day trip to Tarpon Springs. She mentioned the phrase “Greek restaurants” and I immediately started salivating.

131. marisacat - 17 June 2007

You know Miss Devore:

You can google.

Go back in her comments. And her diaries.

And be sure and find where I stood up for her agaisnt Kid O when SHE was new. she slapped back his tiresome (soft racism) “race interlocutor” stuff.

She also declined the offer of a FP essay to rebut him ..

I am not your personal research assistant.

I thought she should have taken it.

**************

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED


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