jump to navigation

Fish in a barrel… 11 August 2007

Posted by marisacat in 2004 Election, 2006 Mid Terms, 2008 Election, Lie Down Fall Down Dems, WAR!.


s l o w l y they catch on….

 I’ve come to the conclusion that we are not going to get the votes in September to force a wind-down of the war in Iraq. This is mainly because Gen. Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker are going to give an upbeat report that will assert that the surge is working well enough to justify its continuance. But it is also because the Democrats have powerful disincentives to making a big enough stink to force a change.

or give the appearance of catching on…

 The Democrats are enjoying a huge surge in fundraising and party-identification. The election of ’08 is setting up to be an historical blowout. I just doubt they are willing to rock the boat while they have such smooth sailing.

If they are going to do anything crazy it will be related to Gonzales and the Department of Justice. The war? I am not seeing it.

not that it matters.

The Democrats plan to use the likes of Murphy, Joe Sestak, Webb and others to sell war continuation… furtherance of war.  War forever.  Pity the little retail politickers cannot see themselves selling war as they sell the Democrats.

Frankly, willful blind ignorance is heinous.  Despicable too.


I made it to Asia Times yesterday, for the first time in a couple weeks.  It is packed…

One thing I landed on was part three of an extended look at how Germany is being brought around, albeit slowly, to the USA! USA! War Agenda.

 PART 1: Readiness for endless war

 PART 2: Everything is broken

 PART 3: Hail to the chief, or else

Here is a snip from Part 1:

[S]ince Angela Merkel’s visit to Washington (as the conservative opposition leader) on the eve of the US invasion of Iraq, to denounce then-chancellor Gerhard Schroeder’s decision to oppose the war, the return to US good graces was not only the main conservative foreign-policy project; it turned rapidly into the supreme project of the German political class – including the Social Democrats.

Merkel became the chancellor-to-go-to, the most trusted European interlocutor for the US political class to work jointly and determinedly to harden US global hegemony against the consequences of America’s Iraq-inflicted weakness – this not only in the wider Middle East but also, and especially, with regard to Russia and China, the Bush administration’s original enemy of choice before the “birth pangs of a new Middle East” consumed so much of its political capital.

Overcoming the domestic constraints on its ability to use the German army more extensively for “humanitarian interventions”, for the defense of “Western civilization” against Islamist terrorism, is an important, though not the most important, part of the Merkel government’s “the West united behind the US” policy. Notwithstanding the absence of public debate on its strategic implications – eg, of the US (and Israeli) doctrine of preventive war, the abolition of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s geographical restrictions, the mission of “securing access to raw materials” – the rejection on general principles of a more activist military role by a majority of Germans has not (yet) been overcome.

This has far-reaching consequences: it has, in a significant way, rebooted German elite attitudes and expectations toward the EU, and toward Germany’s relationship with France. The public discourse about foreign policy as well as the underlying elite mindset is changing – from “responsibly conservative” to the channeling of the demons Hannah Arendt dealt with in her search for the origins of 20th-century disorder: (British) imperialism, Western militarism and racism. And since the majority of Germans is (again) far behind the curve of elite opinion, the efforts of “re-educating” them (as Der Spiegel recently demanded again) are as consistently strident as they are mythologizing.

There is that glib line, read it and weep.  Hard to avoid reading it with anything but dread.  Eye and knocking heart, as Auden said…

Do I know how it turns out?  I surely do not.  But little feels good or right.

Nothing feels decent, I know that much.




1. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

As a momentary diversion from the endless buffoonery of one Markos Moulitsas, Esquire, here’s a disturbing story from The Guardian about how anti-terror laws are being used to squash domestic dissent in the UK. A harbinger of things to come for the United States? Well, Reagan copied Thatcher in her demolition of labour unions and the deindustrialisation of the nation in order to help the capitalists increase their profits (those Chinese prisoners work for surprisingly little!), so why won’t the next President follow-the-leader, as well.

Read and weep:

Police to use terror laws on Heathrow climate protesters

Government has encouraged use of stop and search and detention without charge

John Vidal and Helen Pidd
Saturday August 11, 2007
The Guardian

Armed police will use anti-terrorism powers to “deal robustly” with climate change protesters at Heathrow next week, as confrontations threaten to bring major delays to the already overstretched airport.

Up to 1,800 extra officers will be drafted in to prevent an estimated 1,500 people disrupting the airport over the period of the camp for climate change, which is due to begin on Tuesday. The police have been told to use stop and search powers against the protesters, who have pledged to take direct action on August 18 and 19 but not to endanger life.

More police than protestors? These climate change protestors must be some toughies: armed police have to outnumber them just to keep them under control.

But the rights of the protestors will be respected…oh wait, come to find out, they haven’t got any:

Scotland Yard’s plans for handling the protests are revealed in a document seen by the Guardian….

The police report makes it clear that the government has encouraged police forces to make greater use of terrorism powers “especially the use of stop and search powers under s44 Terrorism Act 2000”.

The law gives police powers to:

· Stop and search people and vehicles for anything that could be used in connection with terrorism

· Search people even if they do not have evidence to suspect them

· Hold people for up to a month without charge

· Search homes and remove protesters’ outer clothes, such as hats, shoes and coats.

But there were some who resisted:

Last night the protesters said they would not be intimidated. “We are trying to prevent climate change by stopping the expansion of the airport. There is no intention to endanger life. Our quarrel is not with passengers but with BAA and the government,” said a spokesman.

The civil rights group Liberty said it was alarmed at the police use of the anti-terrorism powers to deter peaceful protest. “Stop and search powers created to address the threat of terrorism should not be used routinely against peaceful demonstrators,” said James Welch, Liberty’s legal director.

It should also be noted that the police are utilising these anti-terror laws even though law lords have ruled that an identical use in 2003 was patently unlawful:

The police tactics have echoes of the 2003 anti-war demo at RAF Fairford where law lords eventually ruled police had acted unlawfully in detaining two coachloads of protesters, who were stopped and searched and then turned back even though they were on their way to an authorised demonstration. Police used section 44 of the act 995 times at the Fairford peace camp, even though there was no suggestion of terrorist overtones.

There’s more, but I’ve given you the best bits from The Guardian story, found here:


2. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

Oh, and JFTR: I’ve always mistrusted Jim Webb. Reagan’s Secretary of the Navy? A “former” Reaganite? Webb is as much a former Reaganite as Kos: he changed party labels but not his political agenda. The GOP shifted so far to the Right that it left Webb and Moulitsas behind.

But as wrong as Webb is on the FISA vote, he’s not a “coward”. I don’t believe for a second that he was intimidated or stampeded into his vote. Webb just so happens to not care much about civil liberties; he’s a Defence of the Realm sort of chap and always has been.
And didn’t Kos praise Webb to the skies as a “fighting Dem” or some such bollocks not all that long ago? The naivete of Moulitsas (if he really is surprised at Webb’s vote to suspended the Constitution for six months and is not just feigning disappointment for the benefit of the rubes) is truly jaw-dropping. What did he expect?

The best comment in response to Kos’ accusation that Webb is a “coward” was this one:

He isn’t a traitor or coward. Just a republican. (2+ / 0-)

Or at least that is what it seems like.

by Common Cents on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 01:04:47 PM PDT

3. marisacat - 11 August 2007

No question Webb is and was a militarist. And a reactionary. All laid out in his writings, for decades.

The Republcans laughed at VA Dems donating to Webb and calling themselves “liberals”… and loving his war monger pitter patter.

The other people laughing ar Rahm and Bill C, and Schumer.

Fish in a barrel..

4. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

Well, many of Webb’s apologists are now saying that he’s a freshman senator and “will learn”.


Webb is so deeply embedded into the congressional-military-industrial complex, and has been for his adult life, that he cannot use the “it’s my first day on the job” excuse.

For those who think that Webb may learn the error of his ways, I caution you that he seems to be a remarkably slow learner:

In a November 19, 2006 appearance on Meet the Press, Webb told host Tim Russert, “And I, you know, I’m one of these people who — there, there aren’t many of us — who can still justify for you the reasons that we went into Vietnam, however screwed up the strategy got.”

Vietnam War? A good thing.

Iraq War? Not up to the scale of Vietnam quite yet and already a reluctant public have lost their taste for it.

But Webb is there to give the reluctant sheep a sharp prod and run them into the shearing pens.

I much prefer the sheep metaphor to the fish in a barrel. Sheep can be fleeced again and again and again; fish can only be shot once.

5. marisacat - 11 August 2007

well.. the fish die.

shearing is pretty benign. Relatively…

6. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

I’ll meet you halfway on this one.

What do you say to sheep in a barrel?

7. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 August 2007

This is a nation of fucking cowards:

It’s back-to-school time so load up with those pencils, notebooks, rulers and, of course, a bullet-deflecting backpack, if you buy the pitch of the security accessory’s Danvers inventors.

It’s back-to-school time so load up with those pencils, notebooks, rulers and, of course, a bullet-deflecting backpack, if you buy the pitch of the security accessory’s Danvers inventors.

The backpacks, which will cost $175, have a super-lightweight bullet-proof plate sewn into the back which weighs no more than a bottle of water. Pelonzi said the material used is a secret.

really, what else is there to say? Cowards.

8. marisacat - 11 August 2007

LOL My mother had a line, which may come from literature, not claiming it was original… she used to call the American people, “sheep fatted for sacrifice to the moon”.

Not being dismissive of peoples’ lives here, but seems most are persuadable. One way or the other.. Hillary is this, Edwards is that, or Obama, etc.

I am keeping to the idea of ‘going to the slaughter’.

Not that this (the title) was devised to make sense with a cartoon of Roadrunner and Wily E Coyote.

But then…

9. Miss Devore - 11 August 2007


10. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

Actually, Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner is the perfect pop culture reference for Democrats v. Republicans. The Democrats cook up some Rube Goldberg scheme and this time they’re absolutely certain that they’ll get that Roadrunner. And of course the ridiculously complicated, half-baked plan blows up in their faces.

I always did wonder why the coyote didn’t hire an attorney to file a product liability suit against Acme. Their products are quite clearly defective and the coyote has suffered multiple injuries as a result. The coyote could have reaped millions in the lawsuit and retired to a roadrunner ranch where he could have his pick from amongst many fatted birds.

Or maybe the coyote DID file suit and hired Jason Melrath, Esq., as his attorney. That would explain why he’s still living in a cave in the desert.

11. ms_xeno - 11 August 2007

Coyote vs. Acme

My client, Mr. Wile E. Coyote, a resident of Arizona and contiguous states, does hearby bring suit for damages against the Acme Company, manufacturer and retail distributor of assorted merchandise, incorporated in Delaware and doing business in every state, district, and territory. Mr. Coyote seeks compensation for personal injuries, loss of business income, and mental suffering caused as a direct result of the actions and/or gross negligence of said company, under Title 15 of the United States Code Chapter 47, section 2072, subsection (a), relating to product liability.

Mr. Coyote states that on eighty-five separate occasions, he has purchased of the Acme Company (hereinafter, ‘Defendant’), through that company’s mail order department, certain products which did cause him bodily injury due to defects in manufacture or improper cautionary labeling. Sales slips made out to Mr. Coyote as proof of purchase are at present in the possession of the Court, marked Exhibit A. Such injuries sustained by Mr. Coyote have temporarily restricted his ability to make a living in the profession of predator. Mr. Coyote is self-employed and thus not eligible for Workmen’s Compensation…

12. marisacat - 11 August 2007

yes, there was one cartoon of them I almost used … with WEC setting light to a bomb (that he is sitting on) under water, some harebrained idea to catch up to RR on the ground.

All variations on a theme. Looney Toons.

Same end, all the time: That’s All Folks!!

13. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 August 2007

Democrats Say Leaving Iraq May Take Years

DES MOINES, Aug. 11 — Even as they call for an end to the war and pledge to bring the troops home, the Democratic presidential candidates are setting out positions that could leave the United States engaged in Iraq for years.

John Edwards, the former North Carolina senator, would keep troops in the region to intervene in an Iraqi genocide and be prepared for military action if violence spills into other countries. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York would leave residual forces to fight terrorism and to stabilize the Kurdish region in the north. And Senator Barack Obama of Illinois would leave a military presence of as-yet unspecified size in Iraq to provide security for American personnel, fight terrorism and train Iraqis.

These positions and those of some rivals suggest that the Democratic bumper-sticker message of a quick end to the conflict — however much it appeals to primary voters — oversimplifies the problems likely to be inherited by the next commander in chief. Antiwar advocates have raised little challenge to such positions by Democrats.

Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico stands apart, having suggested that he would even leave some military equipment behind to expedite the troop withdrawal. In a forum at a gathering of bloggers last week, he declared: “I have a one-point plan to get out of Iraq: Get out! Get out!”

On the other side of the spectrum is Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, who has proposed setting up separate regions for the three major ethnic and religious groups in Iraq until a stable central government is established before removing most American troops.

Still, many Democrats are increasingly taking the position, in televised debates and in sessions with voters across the country, that ending a war can be as complicated as starting one.

“We’ve got to be prepared to control a civil war if it starts to spill outside the borders of Iraq,” Mr. Edwards, who has run hard against the war, said at a Democratic debate in Chicago this week. “And we have to be prepared for the worst possibility that you never hear anyone talking about, which is the possibility that genocide breaks out and the Shi’a try to systematically eliminate the Sunni. As president of the United States, I would plan and prepare for all those possibilities.”

14. ms_xeno - 11 August 2007

…John Edwards, the former North Carolina senator, would keep troops in the region to intervene in an Iraqi genocide and be prepared for military action if violence spills into other countries…

So we’ll be intervening against ourselves ?

I thought that good Baptists didn’t believe in self-intervention because it leads to hairy palms and blindness. For shame, Johnny. :/

15. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Everything you wanted to know about the lure of the red herring, from a British word guru.

Several ways to preserve the fish have been developed in various places, all significantly different, which have bequeathed us a separate term for each product. The methods share a common feature of smoking and salting: the differences lie in the type, combination and duration of the processes. One was a speciality of Norfolk, especially the major fishing port of Yarmouth, and became known as the Yarmouth bloater (bloater possibly deriving from the Old Norse blautr, meaning “soft; fresh”). Further north the herring (and other fish, particularly salmon) were preserved by splitting and gutting, rubbing them with salt, pepper and spices and then curing them over oak smoke in a smokehouse or smokery to produce a kipper (a name which may come from that given to the male herring in the breeding season, when it develops a beak called the kip). A rather less well-known type was the buckling, which was gutted and beheaded, salted and hot smoked in a special oven so that it was cooked as much as smoked (the name only appears at the beginning of this century and apparently comes from the German bückling, a term applied to the bloater).

The fourth type, the oldest, is our red herring. This was heavily salted and then smoked over a fire for a substantial period, often up to 48 hours, so that it dried out, turned a deep brownish red and became almost as hard as a board.

Atlantic herring harvest and processing, courtesy of the Gulf of Maine.

Extremely funky website of a Dutch “online experience designer” named Pep Zuijderwijk:Salted Herring. (Recent clients include a snowboard company, BBC Radio, the Van Gogh Museum, and the New Zealand Ministry of Education.) If you open the site, be sure and turn on the radio or click on the blackboard drawing.

16. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 August 2007

speaking of “good” Baptists, Billy Graham has some strange priorities:

On Iraq: “I’m getting a little depressed about Iraq… Think of what it is doing to Bush. There doesn’t seem to be any way out.”

Nope, not the fatherless and motherless children, both American, Iraqi and “coalition”. Not the mangled bodies, not the destruction of a nation, not the shredding of civil liberties … NO, it’s GEORGE FUCKING BUSH’S feelings that are important!!!

Man of God my ass.

Oh, and he’s a bi-partisan idiot:

On Sen. Hillary Clinton: “I keep up with her. I think a lot of Hillary.”

holy shit.

17. colleen - 11 August 2007

How odd that Martin completely failed to mention Casey Jr’s vote. Particularly since so many of Jr’s ardent supporters (several of whom are Martins drinking buddies) lied repeatedly about Casey Jr and assured everyone that, except for reproductive rights (which, after all, only affect women) Casey Jr was great on everything else, a Real Democrat. Even after his ardent and unnecessary support of Sam Alito (who most definitely is not ‘great on everything else’ ) they refused to admit error or acknowledge their part in electing that asshole. Casey and Webb aren’t cowards, they’re voting precisely as most people here predicted they would despite verbal abuse and harassment from the ‘elite’ and their dittoheads. The folks who are cowardly are those like Martin and his lawyer buddies who refuse to acknowledge they are stupid, wrong and/or deliberately misleading. How fortunate that I’ve archived most of those conversations; I intend to remind them for the next 6 years.

18. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

ms xeno – the Baptists may disapprove, but apparently the Lutherans are loosening up.

19. supervixen - 11 August 2007

Catching up:

MCat, hope you’re feeling better! Great to see another post from you.

– wowee, that snit fit by thereisnopoint was one for the ages. I nearly fell off my chair laughing. Thank you Brinn/5hearts for keeping after the idiot! By the way, have you heard from your mother yet? I’m praying for good news.

– re: Shadowthief’s comments on Webb: I absolutely loathe Webb, mainly because of his asinine attitude toward women in the military. Not even most Republicans were as sexist, even back in the ’70s. He’s a “war lover” as well. The worst thing about his “Women Can’t Fight” article wasn’t his sexism, but his eroticization of warfare and killing. That was truly creepy. I was a loudly anti-Webb poster at DKos and told everyone he was a Republican – and a conservative one – at heart. This was instrumental in my transformation into “troll”.

– mattes – nice to see you here! What did you get banned for? DKos is down right now so I can’t check it out. Anyway, join the ranks of the fun people who know where it’s at 😉

20. Miss Devore - 11 August 2007

13-This is why the dems are not going to pull anything over the repubs on Iraq. What determines “genocide”, “terrorism” “conflict spilling into other countries” right now, in Iraq? A case can be made that they all exist there now, in one form or another. If you look at it in those terms, biden’s plan is more realistic–because some of the ethnic cleansing has already advanced.Still, it leaves the oil deal to be negotiated, and the consent of the Iraqi people, of course.

I also wouldn’t rule out a pseudo-withdrawal in sept of 2008 so whatever rethug in the race–they are all for the supersize-surge, except Paul–will be rewarded for staying the course.

21. Revisionist - 11 August 2007

oopsies… there was a voting machine malfunction in Ames. 4500 votes are being “rerun”.

We cant even run a small straw poll right.

22. Miss Devore - 11 August 2007

{waves hello to all newcomers from the past week}

Was this pledge week?

23. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Man of God by Eliza Gilkyson (Shawn Colvin, Marcia Ball, and many others on backup vocals.)

The cowboy came from out of the west
With his snakeskin boots and his bulletproof vest
Gang of goons and his big war chest
Fortunate son he was doubly blessed

Corporate cronies and the chiefs of staff
Bowing to the image of the golden calf
Startin’ up wars in the name of God’s son
Gonna blow us all the way to kingdom come

Man of God, man of God
That ain’t the teachings of a man of God

24. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

pseudo-withdrawal in sept of 2008

That’s about the level of subterfuge required, when fainting goats and kippers are your only pseudo-impediment? Why switch herrings in mid-spawn?

25. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Extra question mark there, accidentally.

26. liberalcatnip - 11 August 2007

My public service announcement for thereisnoclue.

27. marisacat - 11 August 2007

I DEMAND a recount. Based on Revisonist’s post

Breaking News from ABCNEWS.com:



28. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Zesty lemon Pledge.

Pssst . . . Hunter Thompsonesque musings melt the spoon. . . pass it on!

29. jam.fuse - 11 August 2007

Rigorous Intuition thread re: alleged DK/CIA connections.

30. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 August 2007

Endless war, with Men of God giving their blessing. Those Asia Times pieces are scary.

31. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 August 2007
32. JJB - 11 August 2007

Surprise, surprise.

Still, many Democrats are increasingly taking the position . . . that ending a war can be as complicated as starting one.

Actually, that should be “more complicated than starting one,” and is there a single instance in history in which this was not the case? It’s why war should always be the last resort.

Madman, no. 16,

That’s echt Graham, after Nixon resigned, he said that (approximate quote) “perhaps the problem is that we did not pray enough for Richard Nixon.”

33. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

catnip – quit trying to fix that guy up. You’re probably starting to piss off his girlfriend.

34. wilfred - 11 August 2007

Thanks for the Merkel article, can’t believe no one is commenting about this in the thread so far. It’s very powerful stuff.

For me, it shows that what it is coming down to is this: white christians vs. everyone else. They’re assuming (and not acting quickly and therefore facilitating) that we aren’t going to change and save the planet in the years we have to turn it around so it will be about who survives on the beleaguered Earth. It’s (a wetter and greener) Mad Max sooner than later and the wealthy white nations are banding together so they survive what is headed our way. I’m sure the powers-that-be even spin it to each other as a good thing, a planetary ethnic cleansing. Ugh.

Too bad Chavez is throwing a wrench in their plan, guess he’ll have to be dealt with.

35. marisacat - 11 August 2007


Thanks for that.

Anyone following the link to the RigInt discussion board, don’t miss the comment from

NavnDansk, he also reprints an itneresting diary from Dkos that was a rescue Ranger item…


Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 382

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: Why did Markos admit it at this time? Is this the “Rev


Why did Markos admit being CIA at this time? Is this the “Revelation of the Method”? I don’t think he was outed by others, so why would he “confess”?

I hope people leave in droves – if we had responded steadfastly to help those displaced and maybe incarcerated by the Katrina preparation for martial law, would the pathocrats have backed off, for a longer while anyway? [snip]

36. Miss Devore - 11 August 2007

#1 on the dk hit chart:

“Reaction Shot
by pastordan
Sat Aug 11, 2007 at 01:57:10 PM PDT

So I’m, uh, in the New York Times this morning. You may have heard about it?

I’d like to offer some reaction for people who don’t already know me. It basically boils down to three points:

1. I’m normal.

2. I’m normal.

3. The people around me are normal.”

Normally, I might make a joke.

37. supervixen - 11 August 2007

Herring: I LOVE herring! Unfortunately it doesn’t seem possible to find fresh herring in the US. In Finland, one of my hosts brought home a big batch of fresh herring, tossed them in rye flour, panfried them in butter, and served them with new potatoes. Heavenly! And in Scotland, the best breakfast to be had is Loch Fyne kippers – which are quite unlike the canned “kipper snacks” you get here – heated under the broiler with a pat of butter.

A very good novel about Scottish herring fishermen is Neil Gunn’s The Silver Darlings.

As for pickled herring, it’s OK as long as it’s being chased down your throat with a shot of ice-cold vodka.

38. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

I’m on pins and needles waiting for the Great Debate between those two luminaries of the age: Markos Moulitsas and Harold Ford.

The clash will be fierce on Meet the Press tomorrow, because the two men’s views are as different as day and…a few hours later that day.

I’m predicting tears, laughter, a group hug…and surprise guest stars!

I do hope that Ford turns to Moulitsas and says:

“Are the current economic, political, social and demographic trends going to vindicate me?” Well…we’re just gonna have to wait and see how those trends develop over the next ten years, won’t we?…punk.”

Then, of course, Ford will turn Moulitsas upside down and shake the milk money out of the little fellow’s pockets.

What I find disheartening is that this matchup is being sold as a “debate” (it won’t be anything of the sort) and that Moulitsas is allegedly the representative of the “far left” whilst Ford represents the centre.

Not a bit of it. They’re both right-winger Reagan Democrats whose respective NDN and DLC political views are virtually indistinguishable. The NDN is the DLC “re-branded” to use one of Kos’ favourite “buzzwords”. A pile of shit by any other name…a REAL leftist, an articulate one who doesn’t resemble Barney Fife, would shred Ford. Which is why Moulitsas is being “sold” to us by the mainstream media as the “far left”. If Moulitsas is “far left”, then by definition genuine lefties are raving loons who want things like single-payer health care and money to repair bridges.

39. jam.fuse - 11 August 2007

More from Eliza Gilkyson’s mighty song quoted upthread by I.B.

if I could I surely would
stand on the rock where moses stood
look out people now we’re gonna get fleeced
by a wolf masquerading as a man of peace

jesus said blessed are the meek
jesus said you gotta turn the other cheek
jesus said help the poor and the weak
if he lived today he’d be a liberal freak
all the money changers would be out on the street
weepin and wailin and gnashin their teeth
me I’m waitin on the reckoning day
when the whole world gonna rise up and say

man of god, man of god
that ain’t the teachings of a man of god

40. keirdubois - 11 August 2007

For my money “Sheep in a Barrel” is just as good as “Fainting Goats”, Shadowthief.

41. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

Question regarding the Kos frontpagers, especially MissLaura, BarbinMD, and the worst offender of all, Mcjoan:

Is it considered “blogging” if 50%-95% of your writing is actually copied and pasted from mainstream media sources?

Re: Pastor Dan. A “genuine” Christian would have, for example, confronted the sociopathic hostility of his friend, DHinMi, a long time ago. But so far as I know, never a word of condemnation uttered for Dana Houle’s reprehensible behaviour, not even the mildest of rebukes.

I see that DHinMI is bullying an atheist who dared to speak up on DHinMI’s frontpage paean to the glory and goodness of Pastor Dan, and of course to Pastor Dan’s servant on this earth, God (nope, I didn’t get the order mixed up….)

42. marisacat - 11 August 2007

PD is also “friend” to Del Dem and to Martin of BMT.

I put friend in quotes as I hve no idea what it means to them. Cohorts in cheap politicking… for certain. Other than that. Who knows.


At this point Kos and HFjr would ahve to publicly and physically, not just metaphorically, fellate each other, for this to be other than predictable.

Democrats were always problematical. But now they have embraced being plastic dolls. Wind up toys.

I don’t think anyone in the game is really alive.

43. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Kos and CIA make good wifitti.

pinche tejano thought thing were getting bad enough to bring FLH’s oeuvre to the community’s attention: Francis Holland jumps the shark to smear Markos.

In an update:

Better kill the meme now. Which is why I am paging Dude Abides, Dude Abides, Paging Dude Abides, sever satire needed from diary 136. Paging Dude Abides.

44. supervixen - 11 August 2007

24, IB: Fainting Goats and Kippers go out in the noonday sun.

45. supervixen - 11 August 2007

How interesting – wasn’t pinche tejano recently deemed a troll by someone at DKos? Perhaps this is his scramble to get back in the good graces of the admins.

46. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

44- Insert British Navy joke here.

47. Miss Devore - 11 August 2007

Ok, I have not made the nytimes, but I came up with the name of Dood’s website (Dudehisattva), a preferable accomplishment, IMO.

48. Revisionist - 11 August 2007

taking ron cox (who?) out of the poll, mccain came in dead last with 100 votes. 100.

49. keirdubois - 11 August 2007

if I recall correctly pinche was not on the “correct” side of the Ron Paul candidacy. Many of his other diaries are marvelous pieces of, um, semi-fictional surrealism.

50. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

Didn’t somebody file an FEC complaint against DKos, alleging that it’s a PAC because it raises and disburses more than $1,000 a year for political candidates? Doesn’t seem to me that will succeed, since the FEC ruled in favour of DailyKos, Red State, et al, in something similar last year (sorry, bit fuzzy on the details). Well, if a PAC is defined as it is in Wikipedia, perhaps the complaint is valid:

In the US, a political action committee, or PAC, is the name commonly given to a private group, regardless of size, organized to elect or defeat government officials or to promote legislation. Legally, what constitutes a “PAC” for purposes of regulation is a matter of state and federal law. Under the Federal Election Campaign Act, an organization becomes a “political committee” by receiving contributions or making expenditures in excess of $1,000 for the purpose of influencing a federal election.

But the complaint, even if it goes forward, seems likely to go nowhere. Ah, well, it’s what’s legal in the US that’s most often the biggest crime.

51. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

From maverick to desperado, in the blink of a weasely (not, this time, measly) war.

Who’d a thunk it?

52. Miss Devore - 11 August 2007

48-it was john cox, who no one ever heard of until today. there was a gilmore that dropped out of the race (not Gary) some time back.

53. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

Gilmore? Was it Rory or Lorelei?

54. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Recent public portrait of the pastor.

I have this image of Fred the LawAndOrderActor skulking around in the cornfields, polling straw.

55. Revisionist - 11 August 2007

i read that the gop makes the campaigns by a minimum of 800 tickets. anyone below that is on sad shape. also heard that romney bought bewteen 7-10K tix…some of those guys spent a lot of money to be 3rd and 4th

56. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

Not to worry, Revisionist, Romney will recoup his losses with t-shirt sales and his line of Mormon Action figures. If you buy one male action figure, you get three female figures at no cost.

57. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

14,302 votes cast — a smaller turnout than the approximately 24,000 who voted in the last straw poll in 1999.


Bit of attrition, for a free ticket.

58. Revisionist - 11 August 2007

Romney also joked about stuffing the ballot box at today’s Straw Poll. “At 7 o’clock they will count the ballots. We will stuff the ballot box, I hope,” he said on the recording.

And he joked about cheating in the Corn Poll, the bi-partisan State Fair popularity contest in which attendees are asked to “cast your kernel” by placing a kernel of corn in a jar for their favored candidate to show their support. “I was a little dismayed because I saw Barack Obama, he had a lot of corn in that Mason jar,” quipped Romney. “But I was number one – so thanks for cheating!” The crowd applauded in the background.

59. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Spelling Dood wrong implies ignorance of limericks.

60. Shadowthief - 11 August 2007

Karaoke Singer Attacked In Wash. Bar

SEATTLE, Aug. 10, 2007(AP)

A woman attacked a karaoke singer belting out Coldplay on Thursday night, telling him he “sucked” before she pushed and punched him to get him to stop singing, bar staff said. The man was singing “Yellow” when it happened.

“It took three or four of us to hold her down,” bartender Robert Willmette said.

When she was escorted outside, the 21-year-old woman “went crazy,” Willmette said, throwing punches at him and others, including an off-duty police officer.

First they came for the karaoke singers, and I did nothing, because I could sing in tune…

Three or four of them? If it weren’t for the woman’s age, I’d swear that was Mcjoan.

61. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 August 2007

after all of the overplay, I’ve often wanted to attack Coldplay themselves for singing that song … though not as much as I’d like to beat James Blunt.

62. Revisionist - 11 August 2007

regarding turn out… appox 26K tix actually bought. approx 14K votes

Indelible Ink…
On August 12th, 2007 FooFighter says:

Is what did Romney in.

Also, the Iowa GOP shouldn’t have assumed they’d have the same turn-out when they decided to implement a new system that absolutely prevented mulitple voting.

Really, it casts a cloud of suspect on past straw polls.

conservatives are starting to catch on too.

63. colleen - 11 August 2007

Romney will recoup his losses with t-shirt sales and his line of Mormon Action figures. If you buy one male action figure, you get three female figures at no cost.


64. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

mcjoan lived up to her critics’ worst expectations, in my humble estimation.

A ranch-raised thinker, she started out as an academic chronicler of Lewis and Clark’s western expedition, and got lured into dkos by a rad brother-in-law who subsequently died, way young, with cancer. (Nice guy who blogged under various pseudonyms in the old days, including My Little Cheney.)

Goddess only knows the truth about Armando, his ex-wife, and their supersecret internet mess (brutally, banningly hushed, despite a private e-mail list explosion) which implicated joan, and was left uncorrected (at least publically) by Armando. (Personally, I never bought the romance. Thought mcjoan played the stoic, as a favor to Aravia. This was all just before Ykos1.)

Cut-and-pastes notwithstanding – pertinent, reliable, and productive, like DemfromCT, fair enough, fill the barrels, feed the sheep – there’s no comparison with MissL. The latter’s a fundie of the cult.

I’ve been sorry to see mcjoan’s trajectory.

Universal and particular mileage may vary.

65. marisacat - 11 August 2007


mcjoan and armando / fernando / big tent dem / poyunick / whoeverelse go back a ways. Quite sometime befor Ykos1. em dash the erstwhile editor at LSF was ‘wing woman’ for the romance, such as it is.

Frankly I found mcjoan’s stuff canned, from the get go. And when LSF opened, and I found her onboard (her name had never been mentioned to me) I ws not pleased.

I am sure they (Romeo and Juliet) talk of themselves incessantly and yet are nothing to write home about.

66. Miss Devore - 11 August 2007

64-iirc-there’s a pic of aravia & mcjoan , arms around each other, in front of columbia law school in the winter (snow). and I did remember him saying prior to that particular season, that he only knew her from the blog.

If i cared enough I would hook up the old computer and look at the email dates, but at the time I was satisfied that he pulled a clenis.

67. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Canned, ok. Americana. No shortage of that.

And I’m not ruling out a fling, or what-have-you.

But am I losing track of chronology? Didn’t Aravia’s marital meltdown barely precede his so-called outing (and conveniently prevent a meatspace appearance at the first convention)? While hogging mystery-man buzz away, in a sulk?

68. Miss Devore - 11 August 2007

nytimes.com “news” right now:

“How a ‘Good War’ in Afghanistan Went Bad

At key moments in the fight for Afghanistan, the Bush administration diverted scarce resources to Iraq.”

69. marisacat - 11 August 2007

yes well I am not trying to quantify or assess their relationship (oo aw ew: no). I am just saying it existed, to the best of my observation of the nuance they just could nto keep off the page, in 2005. I thought it was a very going thang for instance during PIe.

Who did what where to whom and who screamed loudest… LOL…

Squirrels on the WH lawn all look alike. All cats are grey in the dark, and so on.

70. supervixen - 11 August 2007

mcjoan is a snot and a snob who makes much of her Mayflower Society background and how “lily white” she is. The relevant DKos quotes were posted here a while ago. I couldn’t care less about whom she’s fucking or when he was outed. She’s a poor writer too, like the majority of the Kossack FPers. I already heard about her poor BIL dying of cancer. She tried to use that as an excuse for why she didn’t write about the feminist forum at YK1. Oh woe is me. Fuck that shit.

71. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Industrious squirrels unite, I guess. Even on the WH lawn.

(Eat your heart, out. Barneycam.)

72. marisacat - 11 August 2007


The clench/unclench is only of passing interest (and talk about mediocre) in that mcjoan’s job, day in and day out at the site, is to run interference for the boyos. Job it is…

Probably very convenient that one was in flagrante with her.

You know politics, the beast iwth many backs.

LOL leaving this where it is…

73. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

I think I’m having a bad punctuation day.

74. Revisionist - 11 August 2007

mcat before i forget, i was reading about the design contest for the new transit center/ skyscraper there in sf. are they letting the people have a say or is it just some developers. its a pretty ambitious project. which design do most of the people like.

75. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Guess I just give her some credit for guts, after gilas girl’s feinting spell as female front-pager (talk about romance – Armando waxed lyrical on her prole-esque platitudes) . Following melanie’s shunning, PP’s wedding planning, etcetera.

All very calculated, it’s true.

76. marisacat - 11 August 2007


I have only seen a sort of ‘incorporates all plans “idea”‘… I’m certain tho that what the City wants and what BOMA (building owners and managers association) wants is what we will get.

I also suspect a looooooooong construction horizon… so many entities are involved.

Good luck to them. If I come across anything of interest, will post it.

We are known in architecture circles as a bitch of a city to deal with, much infighting among entities, much scale down and back and so on. I know that is standard, but apparently we are the Gold Standard for that.

77. supervixen - 11 August 2007

All the people with guts on DKos have been banned.

78. marisacat - 11 August 2007

what guts?

Kid O kissed up to DH and mcjoan kissed up to Armando.

AGG seemed to hit on or off both.. then crumpled.

Same diff. Some worked the plumbing in as well.

The level on exhibit there was just so damned low. IMO.

79. supervixen - 11 August 2007

Well, except for moiv and a few others. A very few.

80. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

The level on exhibit there was just so damned low.

In the comfy seats, no argument.

81. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

(About that punctuation. . . add HTML.)

82. Intermittent Bystander - 11 August 2007

Thanks for listening, soap opera fans.

The state of the planet remains dire, as the world turns.


83. marisacat - 11 August 2007


here is a little squib that the SF Bay Guardian (alternative press) ran today on the overall cost and where LOL they will steal from to build the damned thing… and it links to another more detailed SFBG article on the politics of it.

I used to go up to a half empty floor my law firm had optioned, picked up and leased – then let sit and yes iwth little opera glasses look out at all the empty floors and floors of commercial space, in the early 90s. Miles of it.

The next few years should be interesting, lately they built some very tall buildings iwth million and up condos… we shall see.

84. bayprairie - 11 August 2007

Goddess only knows the truth about Armando, his ex-wife, and their supersecret internet mess

what, you werent on the mailing list?


85. bayprairie - 11 August 2007

i had new herring in eindhoven. it was sliced fish fillet, raw.

had it in june, so a summer thing, newborns in the north sea i suppose. very tiny fillets, about six inches long.

i ate it. but yellowfin is so much better!

86. liberalcatnip - 11 August 2007

catnip – quit trying to fix that guy up. You’re probably starting to piss off his girlfriend.

Surely, you jest. (And no, I won’t stop calling your Surely). I imagine any such creature would require a bicycle pump.

87. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

blah blah blah…elitist food…blan blah blah whine. (No I didn’t read it all. Are you kidding me??)

I’ll tell you what, Ms Whole Foods, get back to me when you can’t even afford to eat that regular “contaminated” shit that your local grocery store sells. Then we’ll talk. Oh – and have you ever heard of taking a taxi or is that just too low class as well?

88. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

63. colleen – 11 August 2007

Romney will recoup his losses with t-shirt sales and his line of Mormon Action figures. If you buy one male action figure, you get three female figures at no cost.


See here, I’ve watched the entire first year’s episodes of Big Love and I own every single Osmond album ever recorded (yes, including Jimmy Osmond’s solo stuff). I think that qualifies me as an expert on the Mormon religion.

Three year waiting list for bludgeoning James Blunt..

89. Revisionist - 12 August 2007

#87 –

Lol LC. i nearly commented on that this morning. Whole foods is a scam in many ways and getting scamier. i go the low end grocery near me and they have far better produce. Carrots the size of a dildo. all the grocery stores carry local or state grown produce. often the same supplier as the WF. yet the WF charges $2-3 more just because they are WF. I have scenes every time i go over something. No one can explain to me why their store brand chedder cost $5 for a tiny piece when i can get a pound for the same price anywhere. The 7-11 is cheaper. The cheese isnt “organic” or special in any way.

90. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

70. supervixen – 11 August 2007

mcjoan is a snot and a snob who makes much of her Mayflower Society background and how “lily white” she is

See, I never quite understood the snobbery of folk whose ancestors arrived on American shores less than 400 years ago (in a leaky boat, no less). The Native Americans were already here and had been for at least 11,000 years prior (some archaeologists say 20,000, others 50,000)–and they walked (across the then-landfilled Bering Strait). Point is, they beat the Pilgrims here by at least 11 millennia and probably much more.

Point is, the Natives should have asked Mcjoan’s ancestors for her papers. Oh, and the Pilgrims? Insufferable prigs, and we were glad to see them go.

Seriously, nobody’s family is older than anybody else’s. Trace our lineages back far enough and we all originate in a common group of ancestors. It’s not what your family did in the past, but what you do with your present that matters. I’m sure Mcjoan and her likes would look down on me, the humble son of farmers, sailors, and miners, but my people did the bloody hard work for her kind and weren’t afraid to get our hands dirty. And we showed up for every war, too, and my sort did most of the fighting and dying.

I had to be a dime store psychologist, but I’ve always thought that snobbery was just a manifestation of a deep-seated insecurity. Sorry to go on, I’m not really attacking Mcjoan, just the idea of snobbery and class snobbery in particular.

91. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

#89 Revisionist:

People go to Whole Foods for a sense of self-satisfaction. Best way to clear a queue in Whole Foods? Public announcement: “There’s a Lexus in the parking lot with its lights on.” I found the quality of the food at WF quite dreadful, actually, and particularly so in light of the premium prices.

Give me Trader Joe’s every time. I’m always surprised by the heft of my (washable and eco-friendly) canvas bags when I do my marketing there. I always think that their hummus tastes better than any other I’ve found, the TJ employees are always chipper and friendly (and genuinely friendly, not in that insincere McDonald’s sort of way), and their store brands are real bargains. Oh, and I think TJ’s has laced their Colby Jack cheese with some sort of crack: I’m addicted to it and buy tonnes.

92. Nonpartisan - 12 August 2007

Brinn says I should start commenting substantively again here since I lurk all the time anyway. I know there are some (many?) here who would disagree. Anyhow, here goes.

Mcat at #42: PD is also “friend” to me.

IB at #64: I agree, but McJoan remains the best FP writer at dKos, while SusanG is the nicest person on the FP. Except for Kos himself, whose flip writing style I admire, they’re the only two current FPers I’d give a fig for.

SV at #77: Does that mean Armando has guts too? Because I’d argue that, at least, is indisputable. Whatever you think of him, I’ve never once seen the man kiss up to anybody.

93. marisacat - 12 August 2007

Whatever you think of him, I’ve never once seen the man kiss up to anybody.

No he just kicks people. Making him a brute.

94. Nonpartisan - 12 August 2007

Yes, but IMO a highly intelligent, deeply loyal brute who is absolutely devastating when directed at Republican hypocrisy.

There’s a place in this world for the Armandos as there is for the Mcats. Both are useful.

95. marisacat - 12 August 2007

He kicked ordinary posters at Dkos black and blue.

If they have not been erased acquaint yourself with his massive threads on the Larry Summers hoopla. He kicked anyone and everyone. Those threads were stunningly offensive. And abusive

Merely ONE example.

Further he is, as clear as it can be from observation, a user and abuser of some sort — and one has to conclude after years of evidence of posting marathons round the clock for days, an addict of some sort.

Not a brute I value.

And if you think the job at that site is to oppose Republicans (and that he is some warrior in that battle), you have not been reading closely.

The little saw toothed Blahgs and baby blahgs exist to mesmerise the less than astute and to elect very conservative Democrats, former R if at all possible.

96. Nonpartisan - 12 August 2007

Believe me, I’m no longer under the thrall of the dKos mystique. I’ve basically stopped posting there because all I can get is mindless Stepfordization when I post on substance, and equally mindless pushback when I post on meta.

I think it is ARMANDO’s goal to oppose Republicans, as he is beholden to no one and is an equal-opportunity basher. Ironically enough, I view him as an odd counterpoint to you — both fiery bullhorns who take no prisoners and accept no favors.

And I was trollrated by him during the Summers wars, for backing Summers. So I know whereof I speak.

As the proprietor of one of the “baby blahgs” (maybe we should call it a “preemie blahg” in honor of its tiny size) I can attest that I do not exist to help elect anyone (or almost anyone; I’ve only made one endorsement through the site ever and don’t plan to make any this coming election season); my focus lies elsewhere. And I’ve become increasingly radicalized over the past six months owing to developments at Daily Kos; as I remarked to Brinn the other day, when I first came here I could do little but rage incoherently at you (as you well remember), but now I find myself nodding in agreement more often than not.

You can say I’m coming to it late, very late, but you can’t say I’m not coming to it at all. I am actually beginning to get that the problem is beyond a small group of people at Daily Kos, and is a more systemic problem.

97. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

Marisacat’s assessment of Armando is spot-on: the man’s a brute, a bully, and a thug.

Armando attempted to bully me at DailyKos when he was in the throes of one of his periodic fits of dementia or drunken/drugging sprees or whatever it is that obviously afflicts him. I was most reasonable (I’m always careful when dealing with those who are evidently suffering some impairment), but Armando would have none of it. When Armando discovered he could not intimidate me with his vile insults (“fucking piece of fucking shit” was his favourite), nor out-argue me, he simply banned me–then lied like a mangy dog about the entire incident (or else honestly could not remember, which also seems a likely occurrence, given his mental state at the time).

I don’t find Armando an especially insightful writer nor a particularly deep thinker. What’s worse when publishing on a blog, Armando’s penchant is to descend into personal insult rather than defend his positions.

As to the other Kossackatonianvites: I can’t think of a single current frontpage writer at DailyKos who has more than a bare grasp of the mechanics of writing. Kos himself is a stultifyingly dull writer and no one to emulate, unless one aspires to glaring mediocrity. The others are all cut-and-paste hacks with the occasional exception of Kagro X, who at least has a go at writing more than he copies. Meteor Blades is far more creative in his plagiarism, re-writing sidebar diaries written by far more clever people than he.

Certainly there are still reasons to visit DailyKos, but reading the diaries on the frontpage, stuffed with copied-and-pasted blockquotes, recycled conventional wisdom and empty cliches, not to mention a generous helping of party propaganda, is not one of them, unless one is in the mood for some sort of comedy. Anyone who finds the the frontpage diaries intellectually deep or at any time quite obviously hasn’t read any political essays by Chomsky or by Vidal, nor any journalism by Pilger or Hersh.

My primary objection to the frontpage of DailyKos is that, like all propaganda, it is avowedly ahistorical. Kagro X sometimes incorporates an historical perspective into his diaries, as does Meteor Blades, but the rest of the Kos Krew hasn’t got a klue. Kos himself is an historical illiterate whose combination of a deficit of historical knowledge and a near-total misunderstanding of what little he does know shows up again and again in his inability to understand how government and politics in the United States really works. The past is our roadmap: it shows us not only where we are at present, but also where we might go in future. Kos is navigating without a map, or one that’s at best a cartoon sketch, like those “find the end of the maze” puzzles some restaurants have on their paper placemats for the amusement of young children.

Kos did at one time have some absolutely wonderful writers operating in the sidebar diaries–contributing for free, no less!–but of course he ran most of those folk off. Those who did not leave voluntarily were banned, or were banned before they had the opportunity to withdraw. I registered at DailyKos to interact with those writers, and to make a contribution of my own, but I knew that something was amiss when I deviated from the party line on only my third comment on the site and got attacked by the odious DHinMI (who never won an encounter he had with me–the man makes Armando look like Mr. Rogers). I am not sorry to be banned from there, and would have removed myself voluntarily a long time ago, as have many here, had I not been banned.

98. frtitzcat - 12 August 2007

NP–systemic problem no doubt. A lilywhite systemic problem.

You came late. Well as I have always said about coming late or coming early: its better than not coming at all, especially if you are a male action figure.

Historians always come late. Thats why you are an historian and not an action figure.

99. Nonpartisan - 12 August 2007

Hee hee, I would make an awful action figure! 🙂

Kagro X isn’t properly a historian — he incorporates legal precedent into his analysis of Congressional issues, but that’s the job of a lawyer, not a historian. MB I would argue is an excellent historian when he wants to be.

DH does indeed make Armando look like Mr. Rogers, and I would never argue that Armando is Mr. Rogers, lol.

100. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

Who cares ??? They are ALL FRAUDS and operatives trying to make a buck off of the fears of progressives and liberals.

Like ST said Kos will be debating Harold Ford the same Harold Ford that he happily campaigned for in Tennessee and remarked that HF had good looking interns (non gender specific)… it is a farce.

Looks like Kos has been taking Kabuki lessons and we will see HF and Kos dancing the two step on Meet the Press. It was bad enough that we had to endure the false bravado of Dems towards the GOP …. now it looks like we will have to suffer thru this pint sized moron battling on behalf of progressives the mighty DLC.

How much you wanna bet no one mentions that the NDN for which Kos is a fellow is a direct off shoot of the DLC and was created by Lieberman and Rosenberg…. both funded by Scaif and Koch Industries leading funders of the religious right and neocons. I doubt watermelon head will have one of his handy dandy power point slides with an organigram of the links between the DLC- NDN- Democratic Alliance.

Looking at the pic of YK… and it made me think… how clueless and delusional can these people be thinking that they are “crashing the gates” and having a revolution over Mojitos and Amstel Lite….

Oh… and while Tim is at it… he should ask Kos about the missing chapter in Crashing the Gates regarding the DLC.

101. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

Nonparticle…. you are boring.

If you can not see for yourself that these people are complete frauds then that is your problem. But to come over here and debate endlessly … is uninteresting.

102. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

Hmmm…. already lowering expectations:

Markos versus Ford on Meet the Press Thread

by: Matt Stoller
Sun Aug 12, 2007 at 01:56:14 AM EDT

I’m going to enjoy tomorrow’s Meet the Press with Markos debating Ford, but in all honesty, it doesn’t really matter who does a better job. There are millions of people behind Markos, and there are a few narrow special interests behind Ford.

Oh really MILLIONS???? I could have sworn less than 500 registered bloggers actually attended YK.

103. outofwater - 12 August 2007

ST-As a glaringly mediocre author, I must take umbrage at your description of Markos’s writing style. For future reference, a group which might not be insulted by a comparison to Markos’s style is in the third grade at a Christian fundamentalist school in Mississippi.

104. Intermittent Bystander - 12 August 2007

Svix and bayprairie – Wouldn’t mind a nice kipper with scramblers, fried tomato, and toast, this morning.

catnip – LOL re bicycle pump. I am surely surly, but I jest not. Spoon’s friend flickred. Must be that Nouveau Brut aftershave.

MTP started here. Ford and kos even look like two peas in a pod. Both just jumped to agree that “winning the war on terror” is a priority.

105. outofwater - 12 August 2007

FYI, a quite abridged version of the Armando/McJoan soap: They became romantically involved while Armando still lived with his 5th wife (just a guess on the wife number, no one knows for sure). According to the story published on the internets, Armando was in near contact contact with his new love, locking himself in the bathroom to communicate, never sleeping, and generally acting as a cad to his wife who was physically injured at the time, and to his preschool-aged daughter.

But the wife got her revenge. She opened a blog, then sent an email to Armando’s entire email address book revealing the sordid details, including a link with to the blog. DK went nuts, screams of privacy violation caused bannings of anyone who hinted they knew, it was hilarious. Armando managed to have the internets scrubbed, so little public record is still available. Some people do have it saved for their personal enjoyment.

The wife was never heard from again.

106. Intermittent Bystander - 12 August 2007

BTW – It’s David Gregory, not Timmeh, tossing the pingpong balls.

107. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

I well as my mother always says there is someone for everyone. I find it interesting that so many of the Blog maids are smitten by psychopathical cruel men. Miss Laura/PP and DhinMI, McJoan/MSOC/Elise and Armando, Thereisnorape and some fool

108. Intermittent Bystander - 12 August 2007

A few elbows thrown at the table.

kos: If it was only George W. Bush [driving voters to elect Dems], you would be senator today. Blah, blah, muscular Democrats, etcetera.

Ford: Tries to sneak in a dig re anti-Semites, Cindy Sheehan, at DK.

kos: It’s called democracy. Can’t control thousands of voices, etcetera.

Ford: Don’t question my allegiance, etcetera.

But all’s well and they both promise attend each other’s conventions next year.

109. Intermittent Bystander - 12 August 2007

meta FYI – kos refers to next year’s Yearly Kos, oops, then auto-corrects re its nickname, Netroots Nation.

110. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

Ford: Tries to sneak in a dig re anti-Semites, Cindy Sheehan, at DK.

kos: It’s called democracy. Can’t control thousands of voices, etcetera.

Probably accounts for all the bannings. They probably have Moulitsos on a very short leash when it comes to the debate parameters for the Middle East.

I’m guessing its:

1.) No front page criticism of Israel

2.) No front page discussion of Jimmy Carter’s “Peace not Apartheid”

3.) No front page criticism of the morality (as opposed to the execution) of the war in Iraq

111. colleen - 12 August 2007

Armando managed to have the internets scrubbed, so little public record is still available. Some people do have it saved for their personal enjoyment.

Data storage is so inexpensive and easy these days.

You can say I’m coming to it late, very late, but you can’t say I’m not coming to it at all. I am actually beginning to get that the problem is beyond a small group of people at Daily Kos, and is a more systemic problem.


On the contrary, aren’t you the guy who, within the past two weeks, referred to thereisnospoon as “internet royalty”?

112. Miss Devore - 12 August 2007

he is the risen christ!:

“About Markos: I think he was born with a special (7+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
MoDem, Miss Blue, lilnubber, bobnbob, boofdah, funluvn1, blitz boy

mission to be here at this time of chaos and confusion. He is no ordinary guy, in my opinion. I kept looking for some flaw or for him to pull some trick (like politicians do), but he continues to be who he really is. It’s refreshing to see a guy with a big brain and the courage to say what he thinks. We are fortunate that he is humble and just built a website!

by victoria2dc on Sun Aug 12, 2007 “

113. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

mission to be here at this time of chaos and confusion. He is no ordinary guy, in my opinion. I kept looking for some flaw or for him to pull some trick (like politicians do), but he continues to be who he really is.

Some people really need to turn off the computer and go outside for a few days.

114. colleen - 12 August 2007

It’s refreshing to see a guy with a big brain and the courage to say what he thinks. We are fortunate that he is humble and just built a website!

oh dear

115. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

Has anybody been keeping track of the “liberal” view of the war in Iraq (for example Steve Gilliard’s post last year)?

Their argument went something like:

“It would be stupid for the Democrats to hurt themselves politically actively opposing it because it’s inevitable that the occupation will be forced to an end sooner rather than later”.

That was last year.

It was also a troll rateable offense at the DK to say something like “no. The USA is a superpower. They can keep this stalemate going for years if they want”.

I’m not sure what’s going to happen over the next few months in Iraq. Who knows, the whole thing could collapse. But I doubt it. I think they’re going to keep inching the number of troops up (and this obviously includes mercenaries) in a way that’s really too small to notice. The press will go along and talk about how “surge just might be working”. In 2008, you’ll have the same stalemate.

What they can’t bring themselves to say is “sure the USA can keep the stalemate going forever and if they get sick of it they can just destroy the country. But it’s still wrong to occupy a sovereign country and steal their oil”.

And now they’re caught flatfooted in the face of the media onslaught about how the “surge is working”.

116. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

Spoon’s friend flickred.

Yes but how much had she had to drink before that pic?

117. Paul - 12 August 2007

I still can’t get my mind around the idea that Bush will not be impeached.

I just can’t accept that the outcome is already determined.

I’ll be demanding impeachment until Bush’s last day in office. I guess then I’ll probably have to start demanding the impeachment of the next president.

Damn those politicians!

118. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

Jeebus – what’s his name said kos called himself a “liberal partisan” twice and he did not deny being liberal. I really wish he’d stop claiming the liberal mantle. In his own damn words he’s a libertarian Democrat – whatever the hell that is.

119. Paul - 12 August 2007

Thereisnospoon is obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed, but wouldn’t it serve our goals better to focus more on impeachment?

Isn’t the lack of support for impeachment the worst thing happening on DailyKos and in the media?

120. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

Oh, point 4. Don’t talk about the embargo in the 1990s, Dennis Halliday or the infamous Madeline Albright statement.

I remember when I was trying to discuss this in one thread. Kestrel, Elise and the rest of the troll patrol had used up all their troll ratings suppressing Ron Paul diaries so they couldn’t troll rate me but it was amazing seeing them all in the same thread uprating people who were trying not to discuss the embargo.

That’s the big black spot in “liberal” history about Iraq. Don’t talk about the emargo. Even though Dennis Halliday and Hans Von Sponach both resigned, don’t talk about it. Never mention “Voices in the Wilderness” or all the attempts to break the emargo back in the 90s. Never talk about “Desert Fox”. Never talk about the medical holocaust that was going on under Clinton. Don’t quote Robert Fisk or Kathy Kelly.

Because remember, it all started with Bush.

121. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

kos sure loves his “muscular Democrats”. Reminds me of what I wrote about Romney last nite:

Mitt “Ken Doll™” Romney won the Iowa straw pall on Saturday. What a manly man:

AMES, Iowa (Reuters) – Republican Mitt Romney won the first test of the 2008 White House race on Saturday, using a big wallet and broad organization to muscle aside a field of second-tier rivals in a low-turnout Iowa straw poll.

Hell, that description’s almost porn film worthy. Show me your big wallet and your broad shoulders, muscle man. (Not that I’ve ever actually seen a porn film. *cough*)

122. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

“90,000 committed, hard-core activists” on dkos? Bullshit. Wow kos is full of it.

123. Intermittent Bystander - 12 August 2007

DT at 107 – It’s a [Yul Brynneresque] puzzlement, for sure.

lc at 115 – Dunno, but that pic was YK1, and the birds (I suspect, of an ambitious feather) were still still flickring together at YK2.

124. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

the birds (I suspect, of an ambitious feather) were still still flickring together at YK2

Yes but note all of the empty glasses. 😉

125. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

Kucinich handled himself pretty well on This Week. Georgie S was pretty confrontational with him.

126. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

Kucinich handled himself pretty well on This Week.

Good to know. I get to watch that next hour.

127. Intermittent Bystander - 12 August 2007

Such a stubborn Canadian!

OK, you’re right, she’s got beer.

I believe Mr. Matrix has bragged on teetotaling, himself. The better to hatch his clever plans for taking over blogworld, and collecting whatever perks his market research will bear.

128. jam.fuse - 12 August 2007

Miss Devore at 112: he is the risen christ! reminds one of David Levine‘s take on said tin jeeziz.

129. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

Such a stubborn Canadian!

How do you think we survive the frozen tundra up here? Toques are not enough. 🙂

The better to hatch his clever plans for taking over blogworld,

mwahahaha…I, for one, anxiously await his royal highness’ “progressive revolution” with baited breath – costarring Bowers, of course. They will bore the netroots into submission and have their way with them, no doubt.

130. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007
131. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

Well, well, well … DIEBOLD machines were used for the straw poll in Iowa, and there are reports of irregularities such as malfunctioning machines and the longer-than-expected time needed for the hand recounts.

Fortunately, via Buzzflash.net, Todd at Blue State has been live-blogging the event all night. If we were to depend on AP, we’d never know that Diebold machines were being used in Romney’s stunningly predictable “victory” in Iowa. (Free Market News has more on the Republican fuckuppery that AP and other news outlets will be too chivalrous to mention.)

Ron Paul, who actually tried to poach votes by telling people to take advantage of Romney’s buses to the straw polls and paying the $35 registration fee so they could vote for him, is hopping mad so don’t think that this will gently go into that good night.

132. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

More from Brad Blog

As we reported on July 15, Ron Paul’s supporters were concerned that Diebold touch-screen voting machines were going to be used in the Iowa Republican Straw Poll. Well, it turns out the concerns about touch-screens were misplaced, as the GOP chose paper-based Diebold optical-scan machines instead. But their fears of Diebold may well have been justified as two of their op-scan systems failed and delayed the reported results.

While GOP candidate Mitt Romney may have walked away with a winning edge in the Iowa Straw Poll, Diebold was true to form as their voting system failed to count ballots correctly. As the Des Moines Register is reporting two of Diebold’s optical scanners failed and 1500 paper ballots had to be manually recounted by hand…

133. Revisionist - 12 August 2007

Merv has died

134. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

Merv has died

Sad to hear. I used to enjoy watching his talk show many moons ago.

135. Intermittent Bystander - 12 August 2007

lc – I need to head north (with or without hang glider) to renew my own passport, before winter. (It’s a long story. Tale of three countries, etc.)

136. colleen - 12 August 2007

Thereisnospoon is obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed, but wouldn’t it serve our goals better to focus more on impeachment?

who is ‘we’?

137. Revisionist - 12 August 2007

Bush gives cover to Mugabe

Human rights lawyer Otto Saki told VOA that the law interferes and undermines the enjoyment of rights enshrined in the constitution and is a sign Mr. Mugabe wants to consolidate his power by “any means necessary or unnecessary.”

But Communications Minister Christopher Mushowe said Zimbabwe is not unique in the world in passing such legislation, citing electronic eavesdropping programs in the United States

138. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

IB, the passport application/renewal situation up here has been a nightmare this year since the US mandated passport requirements for canucks to travel to the US. The backlog has been enormous.

139. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

A good piece that ties that odious robber baron in CO (think of the way he talks about the United Mine Workers, the vitriol, when you read this piece).

When the right-wing talks about “free market capitalism” for the most part from what I can tell from what I’ve seen what they really mean is that they want to return to the laissez-faire capitalism of the Gilded Age. I have tried in my last two diaries to show what laissez-faire capitalism actually looks like for those of you who are unfamiliar with it. Those previous diaries were about the Homestead Riot and the Triangle Shirt Waist Factory Fire and why these episodes are fine examples of Gilded Age business practices. There is one that stands out even more in my opinion. That would be the Ludlow Massacre of 1914.

As Howard Zinn wrote in his book A People’s History of the United States:

“….shortly after Woodrow Wilson took office there began in Colorado one of the most bitter and violent struggles between workers and corporate capital in the history of the country.”

“This was the Colorado coal strike that began in September 1913 and culminated in the ‘Ludlow Massacre’ of April 1914. Eleven thousand miners in southern Colorado … worked for the Colorado Fuel & Iron Corporation, which was owned by the Rockefeller family. Aroused by the murder of one of their organizers, they went on strike against low pay, dangerous conditions, and feudal domination of their lives in towns completely controlled by the mining companies. …”

It ended in the murder of 17 people by the Colorado State Militia, 11 of which were children ranging in age from 11 years old to 3 months.

Is this what corporate America want us to return to? If the actions of President Bush and V.P. Cheney are any indication they do. No bid contracts, prosecutorial immunity to contractors and the gutting of safety and labor laws. Seem to be just a start on the road to a second Gilded Age. What is the remedy to this trend? It’s fairly simple actually unionize. We need to reverse the public apathy and/or hostility to unions fomented by corporate America. Remind people that it was the unions that made it possible to have the standard of living we enjoy today, not the corporations. It’s easy to see that the current stagnation of wages, gutting of pensions and lose of medical plans is directly related to the decline of unions in this country. Collective bargaining is the only counter the working class has against the hostile labor practices of corporations and it’s time for it resurgence.

140. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

Wally World is in trouble:

It was business as usual for Wal-Mart last Tuesday for a superstore opening in Peru, Ill., which is to say the mood was of righteous self-assuredness. A marching band played “The Star-Spangled Banner,” store manager Mitch Lippert whipped up his troops (“Who’s fired up!”), and Rev. Oscar Shepherd of Christ Family Foursquare Church sought the Almighty’s blessing “as we interact with each other in the marketplace.”

You’d never know Wal-Mart Stores Inc. was in a heap of trouble.

Yikes. I’d be extremely offended if I showed up on opening day to find that kind of display going on.

The company’s growth rate has slowed to a crawl, overtaken by rivals once thought to be no match for the “beast of Bentonville.” Average annual profit growth lags that of Target Corp., Costco Wholesale Corp. and other competitors. Wal-Mart’s repeated efforts to push upscale merchandise have ended in tears. Expansion at home is still thwarted by hundreds of U.S. communities; and several forays abroad are struggling or have been scrapped. The stock price is down 32 per cent since the turn of the century, when CEO Lee Scott took the reins, while the Morgan Stanley retail index has soared 180 per cent.

141. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

Deepthroat @ #102:

“Millions of people” are behind Markos? He’s either deluded or a liar. DailyKos has 550,000 VISITS per day. Assuming that each reader “visits” DailyKos 10 times per day, and that means possibly 40,000-50,000 people read the site daily.

Pardon me, 50,000 readers is the circulation of the newspaper in the small town where I grew up.

What’s more, not everybody who reads DailyKos is “behind” Moulitsas. Quite a few of the DailyKos readers oppose his conservative, Reaganite political views: some are bold enough to speak up, but most don’t do so because they have seen how quickly the troll patrol deals with such people (either through harassment or banishment). Nonpartisan has admitted he doesn’t dare air his own disagreements for fear of being banned and thus losing the access to DailyKos readers for his own small blog.

Millions of supporters, bah. Moulitsas’ hardcore followers number in the hundreds at best. The mainstream press have elevated him to the status of “leftist leader” because they want a Reagan Democrat to represent “the Left”, thereby making the TRUE lefties and progressives in the United States look like fringe lunatics by comparison. If I have to explain why the mainstream press would wish to do that, then you simply haven’t been paying attention.

142. Revisionist - 12 August 2007

shadow – my understanding from a while back is that those hits are generated by diary clicks as well and are not unique. one person shows up, clicks on 5 diaries and gives them 5 ratings bumps.

143. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

an excellent slapdown to thereisnodecency and miz laura.

Thank you both thereisnospoon and Miss Laura for showing the one thing I learned was prevalent among gaseous windbags , at by Ivory Legal ( peep Taylor Mali) university.

There is a large and gapping chasm between proper research and the research done by most educated people.

Also that when in doubt please make sure to throw out the tired stereotypes of poor downtrodden colored folks like good liberals should.


and too poor to go to KOS.

THEY SAID SO . THAT’S WHY IT WAS SO WHITE THAT’S WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dear moronic idiots,

Every single blogger so far who has commented on the lily whiteness of the conference…..

College educated.

In fact Ebogjohnson is/was a PROFESSIONAL WRITER


Nez I believe is an NYU graduate


And me

Yes we is uneducated dirty colored folks

The whole rant is righteous.

144. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

BlackAmazon also does a nice takedown on the latest AP scare story about the diminishing white race.

145. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

#115 Hair Club for Men:

What they can’t bring themselves to say is “sure the USA can keep the stalemate going forever and if they get sick of it they can just destroy the country. But it’s still wrong to occupy a sovereign country and steal their oil”.

Exactly so. The United States cannot be forced militarily out of Iraq and can remain there for decades if it so desires. That is the hard truth. Another hard truth is that the Iraqis have at least $8 trillion worth of commercially viable crude oil and the United States government is simply not going to walk away from that. Or rather, I should say that the ruling class of the United States is not simply going to walk away from Iraq until they’ve drained it dry.

146. liberalcatnip - 12 August 2007

This is what Gitmo has done to a child soldier, Canadian Omar Khadr who was picked up in Afghanistan when he was 15 and who the Canadian Conservative government has abandoned – deciding instead to trust the process

Mr. Edney said that when he saw Mr. Khadr recently, his client was so mentally debilitated that he wanted nothing more than crayons and some paper to colour on. Contrary to federal government assurances that Mr. Khadr is doing just fine, Mr. Edney said, his client is actually “ill and going blind. He needs all sorts of help.”

He added that when he spoke to Mr. Khadr about the unfairness of incarceration, his client said: “Canada doesn’t care.”

Well, some of us do care and have all along. This case is an absolute tragedy and a travesty of justice and it, along with what happened to Maher Arar at the hands of the US government, are symbols of all that is wrong with Bush’s so-called war on terrorism.

At least the Canadian Bar Association has finally stood up – literally. That might help.

In another dramatic development, Mr. Edney also revealed that the small plane he was travelling back on from Guantanamo last June was diverted to Florida. He said that he was intimidated for several hours by U.S. military “goons,” who warned Mr. Edney that he could be imprisoned for decades if he revealed “classified information” such as whether Mr. Khadr had a cold.

Mr. Edney said they examined confidential material on his laptop and looked through his briefcase and wallet. He said that the entire incident was terrifying.

“I felt very vulnerable, and I continue to. I have real concerns. I want to be protected.”

His lawyer feels he’s in need of protection. How wrong is that??

And this is the bottom line:

“It is unprecedented to try a child for war crimes,” Lt.-Cdr. Kuebler said.

Just another Bush administration legacy. I’m containing the outrage I once again feel about all of this because I swear my head would explode if I didn’t. It’s just beyond unbelievable that this would be happening in the 21st century

147. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007
148. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

Here is another great link from that piece

In the “Diversity” context, claiming Markos as a “Hispanic/Latino Blogger” is very disingenuous, and a disservice to those who are actual “Latino/a Bloggers.” This is not a “who is a real ‘Latino'” argument, please note. It is a specific comment on the idea of Diversity in the Blogosphere, and who represents what, and can therefor be said to champion a cause or be affiliated with ideas or movements or struggle. Markos does not self-identify as a “Latino Blogger,” or a “Hispanic Blogger,” so I say don’t push him into a place he does not inhabit with his actions or focus. Simple. Additionally (or alternatively), you call him “Hispanic,” but the Nixon administration’s word denotes a shared language. And I don’t really see how Markos is connected to the language.

Fact is, I know white bloggers who would more accurately be called “Hispanic Bloggers” than Mister Moulitsas-Zuñiga. And they do deal with the roadblocks and currents that move against those groups who make discussions of diversity necessary because they speak on issues that the mainstream (You, Jane, and friends) would render “pet issues.”

It is also equally disingenuous to claim Digby for diversity! Digby rose to notice and “power” as (in her own words) a neutral or genderless voice. Later, once she had a huge following, she outed herself as a woman. So what would she be a symbol for? Rising in the current power structure as an anonymous, genderless voice? You’ve come a long way baby! No, that’s why Digby is not h eld up by any Feminists I know of as an icon of empowerment. Note for the nuance-impaired: this is not a slur on Digby, who is a fantastic mind and writer. This is, very narrowly, an argument against claiming the health of diversity on the Internet by using a person who hid their (notably female) sex as they became popular! Please. Make an honest point. Unless we are talking about “diversity” in two wholly different ways (appearance/quota vs. true representation/focus) you don’t even speak the same language with this use of token examples.

149. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007


WASHINGTON, DC—According to an alarming new Department of Defense report combining civilian, military, and calendric evidence, Iran may be as few as nine years away from the year 2016.

150. D. Throat - 12 August 2007


151. NYCO - 12 August 2007

Regarding “diversity” talk: I could not resist contributing to a thread on dKos the other day.


I tried a little experiment. What would happen if I didn’t provide the link?

I mean, hey. If certain Bloggers of Note are too busy pontificating on “diversity” to actually, y’know, link to a minority progressive website (this is the conversation on Open Left I referred to here the other day)… if they’re too busy WRITING about blacks, Asians, women, gays, et al to actually seek them out and link to them… why don’t I just be like them, and TALK about the Big Boys without linking to them? If it’s good enough for the Big Boys, it’s good enough for me.

BarbinMD just didn’t seem to get it, though. (“What I’d like is a link to the exchange NYCO is talking about…”)

Lazy twits.

152. NYCO - 12 August 2007

Rising in the current power structure as an anonymous, genderless voice? You’ve come a long way baby!

I don’t read Digby, but as long as you aren’t interested in rising in the power structure, and just interested in furthering the conversation, I don’t see anything that questionable about not being forthcoming with one’s gender.

But yeah, if you get a lot of readers and then whip off the cap in front of everyone and let your shiny silken hair toss free… and then claim you’re a “leading feminist blogger”? Ummm… no.

153. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

“90,000 hardcore activists…” Ok, Moulitsas, that number is duly noted. What makes me think it will change (as do all of your “facts”) over the next few weeks?

Marisacat was right: this “debate” between Moulitsas and Ford wasn’t a debate, it was a disagreement over which side one should butter the toast, and scarely worth the time it took to watch.

Moulitsas made a transparent pitch to Clinton with this “90,000 activists” lie (transparent to anybody who knows much about him, that is, which excludes most of MTP’s audience): Give me money and I’ll give you the illusion that you have tens of thousands of hardcore Democratic Party activists behind you.

154. bayprairie - 12 August 2007

madman, great link in 141.

155. bayprairie - 12 August 2007

bump 143

156. NYCO - 12 August 2007

Madman, you didn’t quote the best part:


The fact that our focus isn’t maintaining certain power structures, media dominance, or ATTENTION , or money beyond you know basic fucking survival that we aren’t being



about it.

We aren’t networking properly

so we can’t be serious.

We aren’t trying hard enough so why pay us attention?

157. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

I thought the whole thing was wonderful.

Jim Kuntsler on Cramer’s rant and the market declines.

158. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

The only words that should be on every ones lips is: Glass-Steagall Act

Following the Great Crash of 1929, one of every five banks in America fails. Many people, especially politicians, see market speculation engaged in by banks during the 1920s as a cause of the crash.

What hath Clinton wrought : Banking reform

159. Miss Devore - 12 August 2007

Secret Iraqi/Italian arms deals?:


160. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

129. liberalcatnip – 12 August 2007
Such a stubborn Canadian!

How do you think we survive the frozen tundra up here? Toques are not enough.

I don’t know if going to Canada will work. What came out of the Maher Arar case was the fact that the USA, Canada and the UK have pretty much integrated their security arrangements.


So I’m assuming if the US government wants an American citizen picked up and “harsly interrogated” Steven Harper et al would be more than willing to comply.

So what country?

Cuba? I don’t know. When Castro dies things are going to get pretty uncertain. Venezuala? Maybe. I’m not sure if they have an extradition treaty or not. New Zealand? Maybe. They’ve been pretty independent of the US over the years. They actually broke diplmoatic reliations with Israel for a few years, not something you can imagine a government doing if they were under the thumb of the USA. One of the Scandinavian countries? I dunno. They seem to be veering more and more to the right. France? Forget about it.

How about Greece? They hate the US government in Greece.

161. Nonpartisan - 12 August 2007

Colleen at #111: yes, that was I. It was also I who called for him to be banned from MLW two days ago.

Again, I came late, after giving him every chance (even to his face). I’ve liked some of his diaries in past, plus I saw him as a draw for MSOC, so I wanted to give him a shot at keeping his opinions to himself. He didn’t take it, so I saw no recourse left but to ban him.

162. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

The United States cannot be forced militarily out of Iraq and can remain there for decades if it so desires. That is the hard truth. Another hard truth is that the Iraqis have at least $8 trillion worth of commercially viable crude oil and the United States government is simply not going to walk away from that.

I pretty much buiy Chomsky’s analysis that the real prize in Southeast Asia in the 1960s was Indonesia. Once Suharto took over and they massacred the Communists, Vietnam was important but not crucial. I think he quotes McGeorge Bundy as saying something like “we won in 1965.” Vietnam also had two Communist superpowers more or less on its side. The Russians had captured an NSA code machine off the Pueblo in 1967 and were feeding the VC US sigint (they had the codes themselves from Walker). The North Vietnames had Migs, anti-aircraft batteries and a border with a country which was far more remote than Syria.

Iraq, on the other hand, is a small, weak country that had been softened up by ten years of sanctions with no friendly superpower on its side. It’s not a war. It’s a slaughter. Yes, the US will never be able to succeede in turning it into a compliant pro Israel puppet state but their more than capable of maintaining an occupation as long as the American people stay docile (ie forever).

163. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

Nope (31+ / 0-)

Ford exemplified insider disdain for passionate grassroots-inspired politics. Markos exemplified passionate grassroots-inspired politics.

The revolution will not be televised, but we’ll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

by DHinMI on Sun Aug 12, 2007 at 11:21:54 AM PDT

164. mattes - 12 August 2007

Supervixen–“How I got Banned at Dailykos” ….I will give the short version, but for the long one you have to buy the book!

Misrz wrote a daily calling out who she thought were anti-semitics at dk and sneakily blaming them for the Oriely expose. She obviously agreed with Oriely, that the anti-semitics had infiltrated dk. Any critic of Israel is an anti-semite to her.

Yet, in another diary, as she was losing an argument with another Israeli critic she claimed her father was dying that day. Since she had lied so many times before I called her a liar. A friend of mine knows her family and was told that miszit’s father had not died.

….her friends came to her rescue, and berated me for calling her a liar. And several others that were familiar with her operating mofo, (myword), also called her a liar. We then were all banned.

Since then, her father has died, and I wish I had not mentioned her father at all, but I really thought she was lying at the time. The reason she came to dk (per her second diary) was to rat out critics of Israel, and so she has accomplished that. What I find ironic is that protecting Israel at all costs will eventually hurt Jews worldwide, but that’s just an opinion. The Jewish culture is so much more than apartheid Israel.

Lucid–nice to know someone was reading my diaries! Thanks.


After watching Markos on MTP, it solidifies my opinion that Markos was under tremendous pressure to clear out critics of Israel from the website. And admittance into the MSM— is to mold the liberal platform on Israel to be the same of the rethug’s platform and the DLC platform….that is, cover Israel’s back no matter what. That is the one ticket into the club….all connected at the roots. He has sold his baby. And I wish I was wrong, as I have been a big support of Markos. Not financially, since being chronically ill for over 14 years has lower my standard of living, but as an advocate for the site. I have mailed hundreds of dk diaries to Congress people over the last almost 3 years. I bugged the shit out of cspan to carry the first convention live, I’ve invited many friends to the site…I now feel like a schmuck.

165. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

After watching Markos on MTP, it solidifies my opinion that Markos was under tremendous pressure to clear out critics of Israel from the website.

It makes no sense. In fact, with websites like Counterpunch and Antiwar.com both in the top 25 of political websites, it just makes the Daily Kos look like a laughing stock. It just further removes the Democratic party from the real debate on the Middle East, cedes futher territory to the Republicans, gettoizes them even further into the role as “mommy party or domestic affairs party”.

166. mattes - 12 August 2007

141. Shadowthief – 12 August 2007

Notice how Markos avoided labeling himself a liberal, though I did like that he made Ford a tad uncomfortable.

…oh and:

Speechless in Chicago

Jay Solomon reports on controversy over a planned speech.

The Chicago Council on Global Affairs has canceled a September speech on U.S.-Israel relations and Washington’s pro-Israel lobby by two prominent U.S. political scientists.

John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt were scheduled to use the Sept. 27 address to outline their upcoming book, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy,” which is expected to be released by Farrar, Straus & Giroux early next month. But the president of the Chicago Council, Marshall Bouton, canceled the event under pressure from critics who were uncomfortable with the academics’ arguments, according to a letter drafted by Mearsheimer and Walt to the Council’s board.

These opponents of the event argued that the two political scientists could only address the Chicago Council if someone from the opposing side, “such as Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, concurrently appeared on stage with the authors.

“One might argue that our views are too controversial to be presented on their own,” Mearsheimer and Walt wrote. “However, they are seen as controversial only because some of the groups and individuals that we criticized in our original article have misrepresented what we said.”

They are really panicing since the 30 billion Israeli foreign aid package has not passed.

167. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

I think that there are no more sacred cows at DK…. I think the next on the chopping block of Fabooj…. she is just a bit too vocal in her displeasure about the non diversity of the blogosphere. And she is breaking the cardinal rule…. not being loyal and telling their secrets as in she did try to diversify the conferences and was met with hostility all the way…. I’d say her days are numbered. Where did TheresainPa go… I bet she must have thought that they would have never banned her.

Funny thing happens to people who are banned they realize that those that have been banned previously were in fact not the hideous trolls that the thread cops make them out to be… since they themselves are now “One of us”.

168. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

What exactly is Ford saying about Cindy Sheehan. The first part is clear. There are “anti-semites” on the Daily Kos. But then he mumbles something about Cindy Sheehan. It’s unclear if Ford is saying that Sheehan is behind the “anti-semitism” at the Daily Kor or if he’s attacking Sheehan for running against Pelosi.

Another I noticed looking at Moulitsos and Ford. “The Man” can always find token ethnics to push his point of view. Race means nothing. I’d rather see Craig Murray and Ray McGovern.

169. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

I am just watching this on MTP…. THIS IS HORRIBLE!!!!

The tiny clips that C&L have Kos is promoting Blue Dogs…. WTF!!!!

170. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

Is the whole thing online somewhere… because if those are the best clips…. it must have been a disaster.

171. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

Right on the MSNBC front page


172. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

Little good it did Moulitsos. The gang at LGF still think he’s Adolf Eichmann ready to send all the Jews to the gas chambers.


Kos looks extremely creepy with those eyes of his. I felt the same way, like the Nazi Party is alive and well….those are the ones who would send us to the Gas Chambers if they got a chance….Thank God we’re armed!

173. keirdubois - 12 August 2007

Shadowthief at 141 speaks for me.

174. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007
175. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

Isn’t this:

I don’t know that Americans are any better or worse, but we certainly don’t live up to our fine words, our espoused ideals. In some ways, that makes our crimes worse, for they have betrayal and lies laddled on top of the blood and torn flesh.

Just the tradition of British (and European) imperialism. Let’s bring civilization to the savages by killing them, taking their shit, raping their women, starving their kids, destroying their culture and tradition and then jumping up on a stool like an elephant afraid of a mouse when they get mad about it.

Just substitute” democracy” for “civilization”.

176. mattes - 12 August 2007

D. Throat – 12 August 2007

There is a poster mb nyc, who is out to get all I/P diaries banned. He has attacked many of us, unrelentingly. When we finally fight back….he runs to Hunter. Quite the wimp. Seems to me he is getting paid.

177. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

US doles out millions for street cameras

The department will not say how much of its taxpayer-funded grants have gone to cameras. But a Globe search of local newspapers and congressional press releases shows that a large number of new surveillance systems, costing at least tens and probably hundreds of millions of dollars, are being simultaneously installed around the country as part of homeland security grants.

In the last month, cities that have moved forward on plans for surveillance networks financed by the Homeland Security Department include St. Paul, which got a $1.2 million grant for 60 cameras for downtown; Madison, Wis., which is buying a 32-camera network with a $388,000 grant; and Pittsburgh, which is adding 83 cameras to its downtown with a $2.58 million grant.

Small towns are also getting their share of the federal money for surveillance to thwart crime and terrorism.

Recent examples include Liberty, Kan. (population 95), which accepted a federal grant to install a $5,000 G2 Sentinel camera in its park, and Scottsbluff, Neb. (population 14,000), where police used a $180,000 Homeland Security Department grant to purchase four closed-circuit digital cameras and two monitors, a system originally designed for Times Square in New York City.

“We certainly wouldn’t have been able to purchase this system without those funds,” police Captain Brian Wasson told the Scottsbluff Star-Herald.

178. cad - 12 August 2007

“Since then, her father has died, and I wish I had not mentioned her father at all, but I really thought she was lying at the time.”

a good reason to avoid that kind of debate.

179. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

They don’t get it:


If you back down when you’re called “anti-semitic” for criticizing Israel’s horrific human rights record, then don’t expect the charges to stop because you back down.

Ironically the Daily Kos’s and LGFs of the world (by making it appear that every Jew backs Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, by denying that the Noam Chomskys of the world exist) make it look as if all Jews are fanatically lock step in agreement on one political issue.

That’s absurd. That’s like saying I back everything the USA does because I’m an American.

I think Chomsky actually said it best:

The charges are interesting. Those who know the Bible know their origins. The charges trace back to King Ahab, who was the epitome of evil in the Bible. King Ahab condemned the Prophet Elijah as a hater of Israel. The flatterers at King Ahab’s court agreed. Elijah was a “self-hating Jew,” to borrow the terminology of the contemporary flatterers at the court, because he was criticizing the policies of the King and calling for justice and respect for human rights. Similar charges were familiar in the old Soviet Union: dissidents were condemned for hating Russia. And there are other examples in military dictatorships and totalitarian states. Such criticisms reflect deeply held totalitarian values.

180. Revisionist - 12 August 2007

DK is Pro Israel just like the way Rahm and Steny and Pelosi want it.

181. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

In the end, Kos got owned by Harold Ford. I’m sure Ford still remembers when Kos dissed him right before the election. Now Ford tags Kos with the anti-semite label. Payback’s a bitch.

182. lucid - 12 August 2007

Mattes- I didn’t realize you’d been banned over the whole jhritz affair. I thought it was just npbeachfun [who I e-mailed shortly thereafter to find out if s’he had any infor on whether jhritz was an op, which I’ve long suspected].

I left Dkos in Feb – the takeover of the troll cops by the zionist lobby was the last straw. After dhonig posted that callout diary stating that the site was overrun by anti-semites & quoting you a& Litho as examples, I blew a gasket. I had always tried to be polite while at Dkos & realized that I could no longer be polite to assholes like dcoronata, dhonig, keith moon, jhritz, mbnyc, jay elias, plu page, etc. etc. They read like those ‘Facts & Lies about Israel’ ads in the Nation [which prompted me to end my subscription to them back in 2001].

I cannot tolerate apologists for fascism & genocide…

183. Miss Devore - 12 August 2007

I don’t remember kos as being specifically pro-Israel; I do recall both him and aravia suggesting it was just not worth discussing. too messy. I think that’s why the I/P diaries became notoriously uncivil–there was no interest in the subject for the majority and little interest in moderating.

184. colleen - 12 August 2007


I do not believe you have come to anything late.

185. Revisionist - 12 August 2007

I guess it doesnt bother any of them that many congress peeps are in Israel at this very moment. The recess was justified las week on the FP because the congress peeps had to go home and be with their constituants. It wasnt a vacation blah, blah blah.

Do any other countries give guided tours while asking for billions of dollars? Do all new congress peeps HAVE TO visit South Korea for instance or even go to freaking Afghanistan?

186. Miss Devore - 12 August 2007

177-the bus system in the city where I live has surveillance cameras. There is almost 8 years of film of me reading, sketching other bus riders and brushing my hair.

there’s also an annoucement that comes on periodically asking the riders to report unattended packages.

187. mattes - 12 August 2007

Cad—thing is I knew better than to get personal, that’s their operating mofo.

Lucid—I could have been warned, or ratings taken away, but the goal was banning me from writing weekly diaries. Goal accomplished.

I’m with you on apologists & genocide, no one gets a pass.

188. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

I don’t remember kos as being specifically pro-Israel; I do recall both him and aravia suggesting it was just not worth discussing. too messy. I think that’s why the I/P diaries became notoriously uncivil–there was no interest in the subject for the majority and little interest in moderating.

The charges of “anti-semitism” are hazing, exactly the way the charges against Obama for being “inexperienced” for wanting to talk to Chavez and Iran were hazing.

It’s the price of admission to the club. In Obama’s case, the price is affirming you’re willing to go out and kill some ragheads. In Kos’s case, the price is that you’re willing to kill some pro-raghead diaries on your website.

When Kos actually had an anti-Israel frontpager (Billmon) he was never called “anti-semitic” because at the time he wasn’t being auditioned for membership in the club.

189. Revisionist - 12 August 2007

it was just not worth discussing. too messy

Thats what nearly every website says. But it isnt really. The issues are pretty cut and dry IMO. Its not messy for anyone except a handful of pro-israel people who monitor the net and go ape shit. They are always the nasty people in any discussions I have ever seen.

The fact people arent allowed to discuss a specific foreign country in nearly any medium should tell us something.

190. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

Thats what nearly every website says. But it isnt really. The issues are pretty cut and dry IMO.

It’s just like global warming and the idea that smoking causes cancer. You have a powerful lobby ready to fog up the issue and say its complex when it’s really not.

There was nothing complex about the destruction of Lebanon and the cluster bombs in the South of Lebanon.

2 + 2 = 4

That was a warcrime

The Earth is getting warmer

Smoking causes cancer

191. ms_xeno - 12 August 2007

I still say that we should send a few refusiks (or links thereof) over to Orangeville and see if we can make the universe explode.

It’s funny how there’s a much wider range of opinion regarding contested territories IN SAID TERRITORIES THEMSELVES than there are here in the land of the f(r)ee. :p

192. mattes - 12 August 2007

God how I miss Billmon.

He could take them all on, and expose them for what they are. But look what happened to him after contemporaneously writing about the Lebanon/Israel war. He fell into a black whole.

I suspect Markos is now tightly surrounded by zionists.

193. NYCO - 12 August 2007

No offense, but Billmon always seemed a little twitchy. How many GBCW diaries did he write, anyway?

194. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007
195. lucid - 12 August 2007

Rev – I don’t see what could me more cut and dry. A bunch of ultra-nationalist Europeans steal some land, kick out or kill the inhabitants & then use the misguided attempts of some of the descendents of those inhabitants to fight back as further excuse to engage in human rights abuses…

196. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

and this.

197. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

He could take them all on, and expose them for what they are. But look what happened to him after contemporaneously writing about the Lebanon/Israel war.

I didn’t read Kos when Billmon was a front pager so I’m not sure if he wrote any pro-Palestinian diaries. But I do remember that he was highly critical of Israel on his own site.

But I think the point still stands. Kos is like any other dotcom/pump and dump scam. Before the election of 2006, when the Democrats were trying to ride Iraq to control of Congress, you wanted as many leftists and radicals on your site as possible. It was far better to have them skirting around Kos and maybe getting pulled into the Democratic party than for them to be supporting Answer or World Can’t Wait or (name your anarchist group). The huge anti-war protests in 2002 and 2003 put a scare into the Democarts. They needed to run Dean as an anti-war candidate in 2003 (before pulling the plug on him with the masking microphone and the scream) then they needed to keep anti-war people near the party in 2005 and 2006. So Kos was friendly to Cindy Sheehan and the anti-war movement.

But once they took congress,hmm, what to do with all those anti-war people? What you now wanted was a “Kos Premium” and the price of admission would be loyalty to Israel, no criticism of the Democratic Party on the *morality* (as opposed to the execution) of the Iraq war and impeachment.

They can’t control the impeachment diaries. So they won’t even try (now). But they can control debate on the Middle East and keeping pruning all those nasty anti-American, Israel hating radicals.

198. NYCO - 12 August 2007

Madman: Yes, and she’ll inherit everyone’s hatred of Cheney, too.

199. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

Billmon was brilliant.

He was the only person I read who correctly predicted the outcome of the war in Lebanon last year only four days after it started. It was so startling, yet he was 100% accurate… he called it for Hezobolla when Condi was still attempting to deliver the baby.

What ever about the GBCW diaries… he was on target whereas, these FP idiots on DK have yet to be accurate or even on the right side of anything.

200. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

Wait a second!!!

Weren’t the White Boyz just starting to promote Breaux for Gov before he decided to not run????

201. Nonpartisan - 12 August 2007

DT at #167: Yes, Markos is creating a community of the banned and disillusioned that is growing into a real threat to him, simply because he is too shortsighted to be tolerant.

Colleen at #184: Well, of course you may believe anything you wish.

202. NYCO - 12 August 2007

Actually, I don’t think it’s a “threat” to him. Mainly I just see a big dispersal of people going back and working on local/specialty coalitions. The “netroots” is mainly just a missed opportunity (or rather, a hijacked one).

A thought I had the other day: The revolution will not be linked. In sum, these people running this “mainstream netroots” scam seem very sure (why, I can’t fathom) that eventually, serious activists and people with actual organizing experience (ie the “diverse” groups they claim to be seeking), will come running to them. But as I saw actually happen in front of me that day at Open Left, what they’re getting instead is a “Fuck this shit, who needs it?” from the smaller coalitions.

I am thinking back as well to Alinsky’s rules, one of which is “Whenever possible, go outside the experience of your adversary.” If the blogoisie that has hijacked the political Internet is “the adversary” here, it would totally go outside their experience and expectation if you just stopped linking to them. Their model is a “social networking” model… where links just pour in and where an elite manages a hierarchy… but networking is not organizing!!!!

That’s another reason why I didn’t provide BarbinMD with the link she requested. (“Link, please?”) To put it bluntly, it’s time to start saying “Fuck it — you find this information yourself.” Nope, the age of “networking” is over… let the age of organizing begin. These guys had their chance.

203. colleen - 12 August 2007

I didn’t read Kos when Billmon was a front pager so I’m not sure if he wrote any pro-Palestinian diaries. But I do remember that he was highly critical of Israel on his own site.

One of Kos’s and Armando’s friends, a nasty conservative who called himself Tacitus, used to celebrate the death by Israeli bulldozer of a young and highly idealistic young woman named Rachel Corrie. (and by celebrate I mean that the anniversary of her death was an opportunity for public celebration for this fine specimen of conservative manhood. I do recall that Billmon ripped him an new asshole. The thing I most liked about Billmon is that, unlike Miss Laura, Dana Houle and thereisnobrain, he recognised racism in himself and other white folks and wrote about it clearly and honestly in a manner devoid of sentimentality.
Clearly the establishment blogs have regressed since then and now take their talking points directly from the Heritage Foundation. Indeed the last time I ‘spoke’ directly to Dana Houle he was stridently claiming, two or three weeks after the levees broke, that more white folks had died in NOLA than blacks. seriously.

204. D. Throat - 12 August 2007

spam again

205. mattes - 12 August 2007

NYCO—missed his GBCW diaries, when I first started reading dk, it was spotty, mostly read Salon and just occasionally dk. I really got hooked into him on his site.

IMO, Markos should dump his hired guns (bubble syndrome). If he doesn’t it will ultimately weaken the site, though it might pad his pockets.

One good site could steal all his readers overnight. Being kool changes quickly. As does being relevant. The diversity was his strength, monarchy it’s downfall.

Wish someone serious would start another scoop site….i.e. NOT one of the boys.

206. NYCO - 12 August 2007

Oh, and to clarify my above post:

By “find this information yourself” I mean… let’s face it, the netroots is full of people who don’t know the first thing about true coalition-building. They don’t know how to search out other voices themselves, they don’t even KNOW what they themselves want out of their political activities (except “Elect More and Better Democrats”)… it’s just the whole “Link, please?” expectation that makes me see red. No wonder they’ve been so co-opted.

Time to hit the road, kids. Time to go out into the big wild world and organize.

207. NYCO - 12 August 2007

Scoop only seems to work when (a) there’s a smaller population of contributors who actually are FOCUSED on certain issues, and (b) the website isn’t being run by a megalomaniac.

The Albany Project seems to me to be an example of a Scoop site that is actually functional and useful.

208. VAGreen - 12 August 2007

Katha Politt: Cindy, you can’t win, so don’t even bother trying to run against Nancy Pelosi. You’ll only make the left look weak to the Democrats.


I think that Politt would be as pleased as punch if Sheehan were running against a Republican.

209. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 August 2007

Orcinus has an interesting piece about the hard turn toward serious extremism happening on the right:

And then 9/11 happened. Which — for them, and for everyone else — changed everything.

That was a shattering moment, because it laid bare the true magnitude of their failure to fulfill the Great Commission. In spite of all their centuries of effort, positive examples hadn’t worked. Working within the political system hadn’t worked. America was as secular and sinful as ever; and the blame was wholly, entirely, their own. For the fundamentalists, 9/11 was seen as God’s stern warning that continued failure was not an option — they’d better figure out how to get the country converted, now, or else his wrath would fall even more heavily on the nation. And it would fall most heavily of all on those who had been given a job to do, and failed to get it done.

Convicted by God, who had loosed Satan on them in retribution for their indolence, the fundies began to accept what Rushdooney and Robertson had been telling them for 20 years: the only option left to them was to seize the entire government — by force, if necessary — and turn the whole damned thing into a theocracy, governed under Biblical law. A furious God would be appeased by nothing less. It’s notable that, up to this point, Dominionist theology had long been dismissed, even by most fundamentalists, as a far fringe movement secretly clung to by only a few authoritarian crazies. But 9/11 moved it quickly to the center of their public theology. And that’s how treasonous ideas that were once only discussed by ambitious demagogues in secret came to be preached to millions over the airwaves and from the pulpits of megachurches today.

If you doubt their intentions, just look at where they’re putting their energies. Bitterly disappointed by the limits of government power, they are now focusing intently on accruing military power instead. Dave wrote about the OSU’s officially-sanctioned efforts to proselytize to our soldiers in Iraq. Other groups are targeting these soldiers after they come home, seeking to fill the hole left by the paucity of VA counseling and transition services. Mikey Weinstein has made the case that they’ve deeply infiltrated both the faculties and the cadet corps of our military academies. They’ve also made specific appeals to the military leadership: Jerry Boykin is far from the only general who puts his duty to God ahead of his duty to country, and being “born-again” is increasingly viewed as a requirement for promotion in certain areas of the service. And, through Ron Luce’s “Battle Cry” rallies, millions of teenagers are being schooled in the logic and aesthetics of spiritual (and real-life) warfare, priming the pipeline with another generation of Christian soldiers. Across the fundamentalist world, there’s a new militance. They’re mad as hell, and they’re not going to take it any more.

At the same time, they’re also bunkering down, retreating ever farther into a hermetically-sealed subculture that virtually eliminates all interaction with Americans who’d don’t agree with their worldview. And this should concern us, too. The ever-yawning cultural distance they’re fostering makes it much easier for them to objectify those of us outside that bubble — to regard us as evil subhumans who live outside of mercy, and who can be saddled with the full measure of blame for the fear they feel. It is, after all, all our fault: if we’d only bought what they were selling back when they asked us nicely, none of this — not 9/11, not the 60s, not any of it — would have had to happen. But we didn’t listen– and so now, we’ve made it necessary for them to fulfill their unholy Commission the hard way.

We know that the best way to bring someone out of any extremist movement is to give them positive exposure to people and ideas that challenge their rigid beliefs. But, according to Barna Research, about 12% of the country has successfully barricaded itself away from the possibility of any mediating interaction with other Americans. This isolation allows them to live, unchallenged, in their own reality — a reality in which those of us who resist their coming takeover are easily assigned the blame, stripped of our rights, dehumanized as tools of the Devil.

In the echoes provided by that bubble, their sense of justification is growing, too. They’re convincing each other that they are doing what’s best for everyone — even for those who resist them. People who disagree with their plans simply don’t understand what’s at stake. They’ve got their orders directly from God, and are under no obligation to listen to any Constitutionalist whining from those who don’t. If we merely question their motives, we’re tolerated as pathetically deluded, and perhaps redeemable. If we take action to stop them, we expose ourselves as being outright enemies of the coming regime. Any overt opposition is an admission that we’re in willful cahoots with Satan — a belief that contains within it the seeds of eventual eliminationism.

the whole piece is quite good, and the one yesterday that it builds on.

210. mattes - 12 August 2007

Bottomline, US foreign aid to the middle east::

Inconvenient inconsistencies
But the multibillion-dollar arms deal has some inconsistencies that could cause the two secretaries problems. The most immediate one is the policy message represented by the sheer size of the arms deal.

Washington has been insisting that there is no military solution to the region’s trauma. Yet it is proposing not only $20 billion in weapons to the Saudis but another $13 billion to Egypt and $30 billion to Israel – a total of $63 billion for weapons in a part of the world already awash in modern arms. And this total apparently doesn’t include $40 million in guns, bullets, rockets, missiles, small-arms ammunition, night-vision goggles, and spare parts for the Lebanese Army this year and another $280 million for 2008. Nor does it include the $3 billion Iraq is spending on weapons and ammunition – all of which are contributing to the current mayhem in these two countries.

211. mattes - 12 August 2007

oohhh, and I forgot the conclusion:

The irony in this whole affair is that Bush started the Iraq war over weapons that never existed and that have not been used since 1945. Now his administration seems to think the way to end the war is to make sure that there are more weapons – ones that kill thousands every day. Go figure!

212. Revisionist - 12 August 2007

One good site could steal all his readers overnight

I dont know if that would be good. There is a state related I had decided to move to as my “political” blog. Last winter several psuesdo-ex -kosnics started getting pretty involved and it just ruined it for me. The had more or less left the site but didnt leave their mindset behind.
I expected pony and cat photos at any moment

213. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

The whole idea that you have to declare you religion or ethnicity to take part in a political debate is ridiculous.


You don’t have to be a protestant to criticize Christian fundamentalist attacks on the teaching of evolution. You don’t have to be a Catholic to criticize pedophile priests and the Catholic church’s aiding and abetting said pedophile priests.

In fact, if you’re a Jew or a Protestant and you become aware of a Catholic priest abusing children, it’s your duty, not your right to blow the whistle on it.

Not criticizing Israel for the bombing of Lebanon or for the mistreatment of Palestinians is anti-semitic. It implies that you think Jews are by their nature morally inferior and you have to cover up for them lest you hurt American interests in the Middle East. And it goes the same for criticizing Muslims. If I don’t criticize Muslims for their mistreatment of women, if I cover for the Taliban (the way mainstream Republicans and Democrats did before 9/11) what does that make me? Do I have to be a Muslim to criticize the Taliban.

What a disgrace Harold Ford is.

214. colleen - 12 August 2007

Well, of course you may believe anything you wish.

I believe that I’ve watched you try to pull this crap many times on several blogs.

215. colleen - 12 August 2007

In fact, if you’re a Jew or a Protestant and you become aware of a Catholic priest abusing children, it’s your duty, not your right to blow the whistle on it.

of course it is. It’s a strong human instinct to protect children from monsters who prey on them and, in this case, it’s a felony.

I’ve watched the DK catholics dismiss any mention of the INSTITUTIONALIZED, generations long policy of enabling pedophilia as anti-Catholic bigotry and besides, why should anyone else care, they were, after all, Catholic children. It was breathtaking.

216. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

I’ve no interest in attacking NonPartisan particularly, but since he has written something here that I think requires refutation, here it is:

I’ve liked some of his (TINS) diaries in past, plus I saw him as a draw for MSOC, so I wanted to give him a shot at keeping his opinions to himself. He didn’t take it, so I saw no recourse left but to ban him.

Curious phrase: “Keeping his opinions to himself.” So your preferred way of salvaging TINS on MyLeftWing is that he should keep his racist, rape-enabling opinions to himself so that he can be a sort of “undercover agent” amongst the Left. His views are not progressive, not Left, and are abhorrent even to many on the Right. Yet you would rather he concealed those views rather than have theme exposed.

I’m not well-versed in the language of the psychologists, but I do believe that’s called “enabling”. I prefer “collaboration”.

I think that those who helped draw out TINS views–as I did on Booman Tribune when I got him to spout his nonsense about Commie influence in the Democrat Party, or as Brinn did the other day on MLW on why minorities don’t blog (they aren’t educated and don’t have decent jobs and free time), etcetera–did the blogging world a huge favour. You would have TINS cover up so that you can continue to praise him as “royalty” (the Duke of Dumb, I say) and continue your pretence that Thereisnoliberal is something he is not.

And you say that the scales have fallen from your eyes and you’re now seeing everything afresh? You might want to rub those eyes a bit more.

217. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

Anybody want to know where Thereisnospoon’s reasoning–i.e., drunk men can’t rape drunk women–leads in the real world?

It leads to a young woman in the military being pressured to recant her rape allegations against three fellow servicemembers, and then being charged with a crime herself.

From the Sunday Los Angeles Times [http://tinyurl.com/2w48f9]:

Air Force turns tables on rape accuser

Cassandra Hernandez faces indecency charges after declining to testify against one of three fellow airmen she said assaulted her.

By David Zucchino, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
August 12, 2007

POPE AIR FORCE BASE, N.C. — In the early-morning hours of May 13, 2006, after a night of partying with fellow airmen who were mixing a potent cocktail called the Incredible Hulk, Airman 1st Class Cassandra Hernandez told authorities that three of them had raped her.

One of the men was charged. After being questioned twice by the airman’s military lawyer, Hernandez said, she felt “enormous stress” and decided not to testify.

“The pressure of the judicial process was too much for me, and I felt like no one was looking out for my interests,” Hernandez, a 20-year-old Texan, wrote in a June letter to Texas Gov. Rick Perry.

What the Air Force did next, Hernandez and her military attorneys say, has a chilling effect on sexual assault victims: The military dropped the rape prosecution and instead charged Hernandez with committing an indecent act. The Air Force granted the three male airmen immunity for their testimony against her.

Court-martial proceedings against Hernandez are scheduled for Sept. 24. If convicted, she could get as long as a year behind bars, a reduction in rank and a bad-conduct discharge. Her attorneys say she also could be required to register as a sex offender.

“Will other women come forward after a rape when they hear that this is how they may be treated?” Hernandez asked in her letter. “I am afraid they will not.”

There’s more, but a lump developed in my throat and my heart started beating faster after reading just those few introductory paragraphs. The three airmen who had been accused of rape make it clear that they share Thereisnospoon’s views on drunk women and rape: if an unaccompanied woman gets drunk in the presence of horny men, she has no standing to complain about being raped:

In sworn statements provided to The Times by the defense, the three airmen say Hernandez initiated the sexual encounters after baring her breasts and then removing her clothes following several hours of drinking.

And the “alleged” rapists practically admit that they did, in fact, force Ms. Hernandez to have sex with them:

Butler said that as he was having sex with Hernandez, “she just started crying.” He said he got dressed. Hernandez, he said, “put her clothes on, grabbed her cellphone and left. She left her purse on the desk and her shoes in the room.”

These three bastards now have immunity and are being used to further torment Ms. Hernandez. I wonder if Ms. Hernandez will be forced to apologise to the three men she sees as her rapists?

Well, according to Thereisnorape, Hernandez can’t complain because, well, she was drinking:

“I drank underage that night,” she said in her letter to Gov. Perry, a Republican. “It was wrong and it was stupid. . . . But I never consented to sex with any of those men.”

That’s what Thereisnorape calls “ex post facto regret”, and damned if any young man’s life is going to be ruined just because he forced a crying, protesting young woman to have sexual intercourse with him. I mean, really, crying and pleading while someone rapes you can be interpreted so many different ways.

Sorry, I can’t write any more about this. My heart is beating fast again and my hands are making fists.

218. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

I’ve watched the DK catholics dismiss any mention of the INSTITUTIONALIZED, generations long policy of enabling pedophilia as anti-Catholic bigotry

Interestingly enough some of the best critiques of the capitalist exploitation of workers in the USA were Southern slaveowners trying to justify slavery.

Are there Muslims who fixate on Israel to cover up their own repressive governments, sure. Are there critics of Israel who are anti-semitic, sure.

But they’re two seperate issues.

Kos is so hostile to pro-Palestinian arguments that people who write pro-Palestinian diaries tend to bend over backwards not to be anti-semitic. Are some of the people writing these diaries anti-semites? Maybe so but I’m not a mind reader.

It tends to go like “well, I realize that the Jewish people have made important contributions to history and there are people in Israel who have helped the Palestinians but….”

Doesn’t this seems a bit strange to you.

How would it sound if I changed the religions.

“Well, I realize that the Catholic church has done a lot to help the poor and I’m well aware of the fact that 8 Jesuit priests were murdered in San Salvador in 1989 but I still think it was wrong for the Pope to bring Bernard Cardinal Law to the Vatican to help him avoid prosecution”.

And what was the original sin here? Cindy Sheehan coupled the invasion of Iraq with Israel, said she didn’t want her son to die for Israel. Big fucking deal. Maybe it was clumsily phrased but to talk about American policy in the Middle East without talking about Israel is absurd. It would get you laughed at in most of the world.

219. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

I’ve been drunk many times and it never turns me into an irrepressible sexual manaic. In fact, it tends to reduce my sex drive. But even more than that, I’d have to be pretty fucking drunk to have my perceptions of sexual consent changed, so drunk in fact I wouldn’t have the energy to go through with it. When I’m only mildly drunk, my perception of the world stays pretty much the same as it is when I’m sober.

220. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

Re: 208. Madman in the Marketplace on the Dominionists…

One of my staff–very nice lady but clearly one of the Dominionists–has told me with a sweet smile that she’s very sorry, but that I’m going to hell. She has a very Manichean worldview and thinks that it’s inevitable that there will be a war within the United States twixt the good folk and the bad folk. And these bad folk–of which I am one–either repent or they must be destroyed.

When I asked her what percentage of the population must be purged, she said that the preacher at her fundie church had already claimed that only 5% of the population was already Saved and another 15% could be Redeemed if they repent.

The other 80% of Americans (240 million at last count) have to be sent to Satan. When I pointed out that we wicked ones outnumber the children of the Light, her smug reply was: “That’s why we’re getting the military on our side. You can’t fight a nuke.”

And yes, day to day she’s a nice person, and appears perfectly normal, but if you pry off her lid all these serpents jump out.

If you want to know these people’s blueprint for a future society, read Margaret Atwood’s “A Handmaid’s Tale”. I’m not saying these Dominionists will succeed, but the damage they can do, especially if they can get the generals and admirals on their side (especially the Air Force, since they control most of the nukes), is incalculable.

221. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

212. colleen – 12 August 2007

Well, of course you may believe anything you wish.

I believe that I’ve watched you try to pull this crap many times on several blogs.

I believe you’re right.

222. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

Re: 217. Hair Club for Men–

Thereisnospoon’s point about rape is that the WOMAN shouldn’t get drunk if she doesn’t want to get raped.

His answer to people who protest that a drunk person cannot consent is a smug, “Well, then, what if the man is also drunk. Are the man and the woman raping each other?”

In other words, a drunk man, or three drunk men, cannot rape a drunk woman. The men are not responsible for their actions, you see.

Thereisnospoon avoids the key issue: the drunken men are NOT claiming that THEY were forced; the drunken woman IS claiming that she was forced, and even the men admit that, at the time, Ms. Hernandez cried and protested. But Thereisnospoon and his equally vile brother, Hekebolos, breezily dismiss that as “ex post facto regret”.

Their is the most appalling, twisted logic that justifies the horrible, soul-killing crime of rape. And now this young woman, who has already been through a traumatising experience, is going to be publicly humiliated and punished.

To twist the knife further, we have people like NonPartisan praising Thereisnospoon and his brother as “royalty” and many others rushing to the defence of these two indefencible buffoons. My small solace in all of this is that Thereisnobrain promptly repaid his defenders on MyLeftWing by engaging in yet another rampage, this one combining ageism, sexism, AND racism in all in one slimy package. Of course, the exact same person has got himself frontpaged on DailyKos, no doubt fuelling his ego and also revealing everything you need to know about the standards that Moulitsas sets for his blog.

223. colleen - 12 August 2007

The military dropped the rape prosecution and instead charged Hernandez with committing an indecent act. The Air Force granted the three male airmen immunity for their testimony against her.

Our tax dollars at work; pardon me while I puke.
That will teach her and every other woman in the military to report when they’ve been gang raped.

But even more than that, I’d have to be pretty fucking drunk to have my perceptions of sexual consent changed

I know and thank you for saying this. For grownups sexual consent issues aren’t that complicated or difficult. When I read spoonless’s argument to several of my men friends they all said the same thing. They certainly wouldn’t have milked his apologia for felony rape for it’s imagined benefit to a sewer blog either.

224. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

In other words, a drunk man, or three drunk men, cannot rape a drunk woman. The men are not responsible for their actions, you see.

Yeah. I understand that. I’m just wondering why people seem to have such different perceptions of alcohol than I do. Judging by the photos of thereisnospoon he seems to be in his 30s. So I’m guessing drinking isn’t something new to him.

And yet the idea that you somehow lose control when you’re drunk is something I find a bit odd. Maybe I just have a high tolerance for liquor but people seem to be talking about it as if it were acid or some kind of hard drug that totally takes you out of your senses. It really doesn’t.

I guess at some point you start acting like Mel Gibson (to bring the topics of alcohol and anti-semitism together) but Gibson was so drunk and so out of control that he could barely stand. You don’t usally have sex in that condition. You just rant for a awhile, throw up, then pass out.

I know I’ve also been drunk in different cultures. Ever get drunk in Madrid? There are very different standards for public drunkeness there than in Anglo Saxon countries. It’s just understood you drink, you get up, and you stagger home as best as possible without making an ass out of yourself. The idea that alcohol gives you the *right* to act like an out of control ass is very American/British. It’s not that the alcohol is doing it. It’s that the alcohol serves as your excuse for doing it.

I mean, come on. I can chase down a bottle of Jack Daniels with a 40 once bottle of beer and if I’m sitting at home alone feeling sorry for myself, I’m going to be pretty out of it.

But if my house caught on fire, I can guarantee you I’d get control of myself in no time and I’d get out of the house.

225. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

Re: Colleen @ 219–

I’m guessing that there is a strong connection between the massive infiltration of the US Air Force by Christian fundamentalists/Dominionists and the reprehensible treatment Ms. Hernandez has received. I would like an investigation into the religious views of the officers who made the decision not only to grant immunity to the three men she says raped her, but also made the decision to prosecute Ms. Hernandez. I will bet you that, to a man, they attend fundamentalist churches and are those “born again” types.

The misogyny of the Christian fundamentalists is something they don’t even try to mask. It’s the same misogyny that leads them to attempt to deny women control over their own bodies. The fundamentalists (thus far) have managed to conceal their racism, but I think that as they become more confident (or delusional), that they will rip off that mask, as well.

226. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

I know and thank you for saying this. For grownups sexual consent issues aren’t that complicated or difficult.

I keep thinking of that movie Reefer Madness, the one where one puff of marijana turns you into an insane lunatic.

Unless thereisnospoon’s beer is spiked with PCP his perceptions of sexual consent aren’t going to be very different. He’s just going to be a bit slower and less sharp witted.

It’s really a pretty transparent bit of misogyny so ingrained in our culture some people barely think about it. It’s like a built in excuse for people who want to do it anyway, kind of like in Islamic cultures where taking off your veil makes you open season for an attack. The idea that getting drunk makes you open season for rape seems just as ridiculous to me.

227. Hair Club for Men - 12 August 2007

Of course the interesting thing is that if I were on PCP or something that really did make me lose control and I committed a crime like rape or murder, the fact that I was on PCP or crack wouldn’t get me off the hook.

In fact, it would make it even worse for the person who committed the crime.

228. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

Hair Club:

I’ve been drunk in 22 different countries (that I can remember). Drunk in the United States is NOT drunk in Mexico, Spain, or Italy, that’s for damn sure.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that we disagreed at all. Your point about being drunk is very well-taken: if a man is so drunk he’s not fit to take responsibility for his actions, he’s almost certainly not fit to take action.

Thereisnospoon and Hekebolos have manufactured that favourite creature of right-wingers everywhere, a hypothetical situation (the drunk man and drunk woman who are so far gone that neither can consent to sex, and yet they have it, anyway) that, like the unicorn, could exist but almost certainly never has. After creating this unicorn, they then populate the land with unicorns (Thereisnospoon claims that such drunken sex literally occurs thousands of times a day on college campuses, and we old fogeys just ain’t hip to it) and declare themselves irrefutable experts on all unicorn-related matters.

Btw, you haven’t really been drunk until you’ve been drunk in a Scandinavian country. Rip-roaring Viking drunk is the standard.

As for Thereisnospoon and Hekebolos, my understanding is that the brothers are in their late 20s.

229. colleen - 12 August 2007

I will bet you that, to a man, they attend fundamentalist churches and are those “born again” types.

I wouldn’t take that bet and good point. I was thinking how simular this judicial solution was to rape cases I’ve read about in Saudi Arabia, the UAE and other nations where Sharia law is the norm. I had forgotten about the fundie influence on the AF.
and, as an aside, Shadowthief, I am very pleased you’ve decided to join in the conversation here

230. ms_xeno - 12 August 2007

Hair Club (#211), that would make a good quality stand-alone post. How long it would stand at DK, I don’t know. Probably not long. But maybe I could start a thread next week at Mo Betta, some kind of “open thread” specifically about the situation in Israel/Palestine, and you could put it over there.

Or have you got your own space, by any chance ?

As for Pollitt whining at Sheehan, fuck off, Katha. Just because you’ll keep your tail between your legs indefinitely for the sake of a buck and a little status doesn’t mean that everyone else has to. What a pathetic, willfully blind letdown you have turned out to be.

231. ms_xeno - 12 August 2007

Billmon took a huge dislike to the Paine-Smith Collective at SMBIVA. I never understood why, really. But after reading his commentary over there, I made a point of avoiding any further perusals of his writings.

232. Top Posts « WordPress.com - 12 August 2007

[…] Fish in a barrel…     [image] s l o w l y they catch on….  I’ve come to the conclusion that we are not going to get the […] […]

233. JJB - 12 August 2007


I suspect Markos is now tightly surrounded by zionists.

There are a few people posting on that site who are probably Israeli operatives. Certainly, the site is lousy with AIPAC types. W/r/t your earlier post about how you got banned, you mention that it’s being claimed by wingnuts that dKos is infiltrated by anti-Semites. The poster calling himself Tacitus that colleen mentions earlier (real name Josh Trevino, who likes to describe himself as “the whitest Mexican you’ll ever meet”) used to engage in a tag-team act with fellow wingnuts to pollute the site with anti-Semitism. This is how it worked. Someone would post a really scabrous and brief anti-Semitic comment. Within minutes, Tacitus (who by the way once admitted to me he’d never read the Roman historian whose name he used for a handle) would appear in the thread with some variation on the following: “It’s no surprise to see trash like this posted by the people who frequent this website!” After I’d seen him do this a few times, I accused him of acting in tandem with someone to ruin the site’s reputation. He pretended to believe that I was accusing him of posting under two names (this was pre-Scoop days, and you could change your handle for every comment you posted if you wanted to). I very explicitly stated what I was accusing him of, he pretended to continue not to understand me, a typical tactic for him. Then he vanished for a while. Whether he was told to stay away, or just decided to chill out for a bit after being exposed, I don’t know. Perhaps he just ran like a coward.

He later got banned from dKos for trying to make hay out of Kos’ “screw ’em” comment about the mercenaries whose bodies were desecrated in Fallujah 3 years ago. He remained great and good friends with Armando. I used to wonder why Kos allowed such a slander artist and fascist (the word is not too strong) to louse up the comment threads. At this point, I imagine they were collaborating behind the scenes on some level, though I don’t think the rupture between them was an act. Very similar temperaments, a pair of huge egos, and both of them arrogant, provincial types with very shallow grasps of history and limited perspectives. Also, IIRC, Tacitus’s site was the top political blog in terms of traffic and then Kos’s site got a lot bigger, which I’m sure drove the Trevino crazy.

234. Nonpartisan - 12 August 2007

Shadowthief at #218: first off, a factual correction: I never praised Hekobolos as “blogosphere royalty,” as I had in fact never encountered him directly online (and I didn’t even know he was TINS’ brother until someone said so on that thread).

As for TINS, I was trying to condemn his thoughts and words on the subject of rape (which I did pretty vehemently) while not condemning him in toto, both because I thought he had a history of excellent posts on other subjects and because I felt he brought in much-needed traffic for MSOC. Those bloggers who try to make their living at it (and I don’t go in that category, as I have another source of income) literally can’t be as choosy as they might like. Unfortunately, TINS promptly went, as you said, on another rampage, leading me to believe he needed to be banned.

235. Nonpartisan - 12 August 2007

Tacitus was never the top political blog in terms of traffic — before dKos and HuffPo, that was Instapundit, or maybe DU depending on how you define “political blog.”

236. marisacat - 12 August 2007

Noor Khan

Yes of course, I think you mean the photo of trench warfare in the Iran Iraq war…

I found it somewhere myself, perhaps I forgot to label the resource.


I let several out of Moderation, 2 or three from


also from:


D Throat


ms xeno

and others…

So take a look at the thread again..

Off to check Spam.

New thread up in a minute or two…


237. marisacat - 12 August 2007

New Thread:


238. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

Nonpartisan: Oh, so you only praised Thereisnospoon, not his brother Hekebolos, as “blogosphere royalty”.

Considering that it was Thereisnospoon, not Hekebolos, who made the vast majority of offensive comments (misogynistic, racist, ageist) and not Hekebolos, that’s rather a weak rejoinder.

I’m sorry I missed the coronation ceremony. Did His Spoonness receive a crown, sceptre, and ermine robes? I think it’s highly revealing of the attitude of the self-styled “blogosphere insiders” that they have proclaimed “royalty” among us. By process of exclusion, that would the rest of us commoners and peasants. I’m surprised that with my dimwitted brain, lack of money, and poor edumucation that I’m able to blog at all. My white skin and XX chrosomes must be compensating for my overall stupidity, poverty, and illiteracy.

I’m not a monarchist, but the blogosphere royalty do remind me of the British royal family: smug, supercilious, self-serving, and stupid.

I’d always rather hoped the blogosphere would be a model of the society we wished to create: democratic and open to people of all walks of life. Instead, certain people have attempted to create a stratified society ruled by “royalty” where being white, male, and wealthy mean that you rule.

Now, where have I seen such a society before….

239. bayprairie - 12 August 2007

Those bloggers who try to make their living at it (and I don’t go in that category, as I have another source of income) literally can’t be as choosy as they might like.

that statement applies equally as well to prostitutes.

240. colleen - 12 August 2007

As for TINS, I was trying to condemn his thoughts and words on the subject of rape (which I did pretty vehemently) while not condemning him in toto, both because I thought he had a history of excellent posts on other subjects and because I felt he brought in much-needed traffic for MSOC.

Your ‘condemnation’ (and emsock’s) were hardly vehement and most of us are abundantly aware of why y’all allowed him to go on and on and on and as a front pager there too. We’re also aware of the timing and the pre-convention drama you were trying so hard to generate. Apparently ’emsock needs the money’ is something you and she regard as sufficient justification for all manner of activities intended to generate controversy;. That you would come HERE and use emsocks financial troubles as an excuse is genuinely disgusting.

(and no, spoonless isn’t a particularly interesting analyst or good writer. Indeed, he sucks at both)

241. colleen - 12 August 2007

that statement applies equally as well to prostitutes.

Indeed. It’s precisely how prostitutes reason.

242. Shadowthief - 12 August 2007

239. bayprairie – 12 August 2007

Those bloggers who try to make their living at it (and I don’t go in that category, as I have another source of income) literally can’t be as choosy as they might like.

that statement applies equally as well to prostitutes.

Ouch! Direct hit amidships!

243. Intermittent Bystander - 12 August 2007

lc re passports – way upthread.

I know, I’m dreading the process. But it can’t be any worse than the year I was told that my birth certificate had expired. Excuse me?! That involved a hot-rush maneuver with round-trip overnight couriers, many phone calls to a (helpful, thanks again, dearhearted competent ) provincial office clerk, and (finally, life-restoringly) lamination. Phew!

Last time around, post-9/11, was an adventure, too. But once again, a responsible human with a direct phone line saved the day (albeit, the day before departure, and after a phone interview). This time I have the luxcury of not immediately needing to catch a plane. What a novelty!

244. wu ming - 12 August 2007

i really miss billmon. i only really started reading him regularly a couple of months before the israeli war on lebanon, but did a lot of reading in his archives after that summer. we could really use his voice right now.

neiwert has had these fascists’ number for years now. my only hope is that they manage to alienate themselves so effectively from the 80% of us damned that any revolution/coup attempt they make is abortive. they’re certainly moving the pieces into place.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: