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Sweeeeet! … or, is it? 22 August 2007

Posted by marisacat in 2008 Election, France, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, Iraq War, Paris.
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    Kouchner

NYT this evening:

[D]uring a three-day visit to Baghdad that ended Tuesday, the French foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, said the time had come for France, and Europe, to play a greater role in Iraq.

“I believe this is the moment. Everyone knows the Americans will not be able to get this country out of difficulty alone,” Mr. Kouchner told the French radio station RTL on Tuesday before returning to Paris.

“This is about having an opinion and knowing what positive things one can do and what role France can play in this region,” he said, adding that Iraq was “expecting something” from France.

That is just downright cute. Isn’t he sweet?  Little helpers there to help. 

There’s more:

The French move carries the personal mark of Mr. Kouchner, who was one of the few French politicians to back the forcible removal of Saddam Hussein before the American-led invasion in 2003, and whose longstanding relations with Kurdish and Shiite leaders have earned him credibility in the region. During his visit to Iraq, he held talks with religious and political leaders, including Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki and President Jalal Talabani, whom he has known for three decades.

“France in general and Bernard Kouchner in particular are uniquely placed to be an honest broker in Iraq,” the French official said.

He did not rule out the possibility that France would at some point help train more Iraqi security forces or that French companies might participate in the country’s reconstruction as part of a larger European initiative, but he stressed that this was not the focus of the current proposal.

Mr. Kouchner’s trip, the first to Iraq by a French minister since the invasion, renewed interest in reports that the French oil company Total may seek a stake in Iraqi oil fields. This month, the French news media reported that Total and one of its American rivals, Chevron, were seeking to jointly explore Iraq’s fourth largest oil field.

But Mr. Kouchner’s office said that no oil executives had accompanied him to Iraq and that economic interests were not the focus of the trip.

No, no a thousand times:  NON!not the focus of the trip.

By the way I found the pics at Pajamas Media (those loons have to be good for something!) and they just love them some Sarko and some Kouch.  (Somehow that sounds pornographic.)

Sorry, I cannot work up that sort of adolescent slavering for anyone.

Just to prick the gaseous bubble (stand back and no lighting matches!) here is what “Axel Brot”, the nom de plume for a German intell officer, writing in Asia Times last week (earlier I had linked to the set of three parts) had to say about the rather too too magickal M. Kouchner – and Sarko too… why leave him out:

Sarkozy’s choice for foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, is therefore less of a peace offering to the Socialists than an indicator of ideological commitments. Kouchner is not only one of the ideological godfathers of “anti-totalitarian, humanitarian interventionism”, he is also the one under whose benevolent eyes – in his function as its United Nations administrator – Kosovo acquired the makings of the first, ethnically almost pure, European mafia-state. During the 1980s, some of his Medecins du Monde (which he founded after splitting from the Medecins sans Frontičres) assisted the Afghan mujahideen with somewhat more than medical-only rear services.

Though he might not be tainted with aiding the Americans (as some suspected), as other non-governmental organizations are, in turning the Cambodian refugee camps in Thailand into bases for the reconstitution of the Khmer Rouge as US proxies, his record, nevertheless, justifies Colin Powell’s famous dictum about NGOs as US “force multipliers” avant la lettre: human rights and medical services for US friends and clients, none for the opposition.

     Sarkozy 

Sarkozy’s ideological baggage also contains the French-Israeli business lawyer Arno Klarsfeld, a rather hysterical campaigner for the rights of Israel and the defense of Western civilization as well as the son of noted Nazi hunters Serge and Beate Klarsfeld. He volunteered in 2002 to serve in the Israeli Defense Force and accompanied the Israeli border guards as a member on their rampage through the Palestinian territories. Klarsfeld was Sarkozy’s leading candidate for heading the controversial new Ministry for Immigration and National Identity – a move comparable to Bush proposing right-wing Israeli political leader Avigdor Liebermann as the head of a new department for Hispanics, Muslims and African-Americans. For the time being, though, Sarkozy seems to have reconsidered this exceedingly provocative appointment.

Widely quoted as mentor and inspirer of Sarkozy’s “anti-totalitarian” outlook is philosopher André Glucksmann: one of the many minor embodiments of Hannah Arendt’s insight about the French haute bourgeoisie’s romantic infatuation with the rhetorical bombast of ideological rogues and the titillations of violence. During the 1980s he marketed nuclear war as an antidote against the European addiction to peace and to save humanity – and Western civilization – from communism. After the Soviet collapse, he agitated for Europe to join any American or Israeli war in reach against the “new Hitlers” (Milosevicz, Saddam Hussein, Arafat, Assad, etc) and “Islamofascists”, as well as for his kind of moral policies against “totalitarian” China and “newly-totalitarian” Russia.

It’s not looking pretty…

Not that any wishes of the French people will be respected, from the NYT:

Selling the idea of increased involvement in Iraq to the French people may prove difficult. Even within Mr. Kouchner’s Foreign Ministry, some diplomats remain skeptical of his initiative, warning that it could put France at greater risk of a terrorist attack.

As one diplomat explained, “The prevailing view in a significant part of the French diplomatic community is that mediation in Iraq is futile and that the civil war needs to run its course and hand a decisive victory to one faction before the violence can end.”

****************

UPDATE, 2:23 am

I just see this in a breaking news email from the BBC:

A US Blackhawk helicopter has crashed in northern Iraq, killing 14 US soldiers, the US military says.

For more details: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news

AP via the NYT. 

There is no one to stop us.  The same thing I posted in 2003… if only there were.

*********************************************************

Comments»

1. marisacat - 22 August 2007

This from Dwyer led off the email from HuffWuffPo… a bit of a mixed bag, but this at the close. Who knows, maybe some more will get it.

Years too late in our tactics? How many more Americans and Iraqis should have died under her leadership, with her superior tactics, to achieve her unspecified goal (“victory”?)?

Does she think the American people have turned against this unwinnable, unconstitutional, criminal war only because Bush didn’t surge from the beginning?

I have been thinking I would feel compelled to vote for Hillary if the Democrats nominated her because that would be the only meaningful way to cast a vote against the horrifying, entirely and eternally discredited Republican party.

I’m not sure now how meaningful that vote would really be. And I don’t think I’m going to be able to do it.

Hard to say. the Democrats are famous for “coming home”…

2. frtitzcat - 22 August 2007

“I’m Frtitz the cat
and Im mean and Im tough
I take no guff
as I strut my stuff”

–R. Crumb

3. frtitzcat - 22 August 2007

I’m sorry Marisa, but I am going to use this forum, just this once, to reach out and bash Pyrrhoball over his dense head. Especially, as he is banned here, he cant answer back, so I m sure you will receive a flurry of emails from him. Sorry again, in advance.

Hope you find it all as enjoyable as I do. What is it about fascist mindsets that makes bashing them over the head so much fun?

But I digress. Yes, pyrrho, the “fascist filospher fuckwad” I think I called him. Now he exposes why:

Over on MRW Pyrrho posted his epic “Why I now agree that bannings are good whereas previously I thought they were bad, I think” diary. Y’know his typical verbal gymnastical diarrhea.

Curmudgette the Stolid came in to remind Pyrrhoball that he had voted against the bannings when Der Fraulein Fuerher polled her Officer Korps.

Pyrrhoball denied it: “Know{sic}.” He meant “no” I think, but you all know how pyrrhoball rolls. Soon he will be saying he meant “jess” not “know.” Its all a relativist muddle within his epistemological nightmare.

Pyrrho is one of those easily mutable filosopher tech boyz. You gotta flow with the go. The new tech. The latest “thought.”

He didnt mean what he said, no, of course not! he meant exactly the opposite! He voted for it before he voted against it. He changes his mind ( a philosophers right as well as a lady’s, apparently), pretty often and its always to serve the interests of whomever is controlling wherever the fuck community blog on which he is currently doing his filospophical mutating toward the powers that be.

And he’s never there when the going gets tough. “I was on vacation” when thereisnocoloredpeople suspended the FLH MAMZ dairy. He fudges his stance on banning when directly confronted by C. The Stolid. Who do you tend to believe in this instance? The stolid one or the mutable caterpillar?

Pyrrhoball: “MLW is a failed experiment in free speech.”

No Mr. Technofascist, you failed twice to serve the interest you readily promote with your flabby lips but not your flabby soul: protecting and advancing free speech on a community blog. You choose flipflopping instead to advance and protect MSOC. Great. Thanks for expositing for the world your complete and ultimate submission to power, however smalltime that power, however petty its interests.

Pyrrhoball is here to serve, Madam Fuerher.

4. frtitzcat - 22 August 2007

I think I spelled “fuhrer” wrong…twice

{:o)

5. marisacat - 22 August 2007

LOL

TitzyWitzi

that is so insider-ish – and then more “ish” I’d say… You know you probably should get pyrrho’s email at this point and conduct a dialogue.

6. Hair Club for Men - 22 August 2007

That Nir Rosen interview on Democracy Now cleared things up quite a bit. It basically showed that the USA was successfull in Iraq and why the neocons are so anxious to attack Iran.

The entire purpose of invading Iraq was obviously not to bring democracy to the Iraqis or make Americans safe, it was to break down Iraq as a nation state so it would be easier to get at the oil and so you could remove it as a threat to Israel.

But as long as Iran exists, you haven’t removed the threat to Israel or made the oil that much easier to get at. You’ve simply broken down the Iraqi nation state, ethnically cleansed the Sunnis and turned Iraq into an auxiliary of Iran. You now have Iran and Israel as the two regional military powers and Saudi Arabia as an economic proxy.

And that’s why I think that while they want to bomb Iran back to the stone age, they don’t have to do it right now. The simply have to isolate it, destroy its economy and maybe start bombing it.

Iran is basically Iraq in 1990. Can they destroy Iran as a military power through air power alone? I think we’re going to find out maybe not this fall but certainly over the next few years.

7. Hair Club for Men - 22 August 2007

If this is true?

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/8/22/2247/04632

Then why did Kerry run as a “war hero” and run away from his anti-war activism? And why did you support him?

8. marisacat - 22 August 2007

it was to break down Iraq as a nation state so it would be easier to get at the oil and so you could remove it as a threat to Israel. — HCfM

Exactly. It is a horror and a nightmare, but only for people who are sane. Otherwise, mission accomplished…

And I think that is the reasoning behind the push from Biden – and others – to split it up like Yugoslavia.

that probably is our long range plan for most regions. Break them down.

9. Hair Club for Men - 22 August 2007

And I think that is the reasoning behind the push from Biden – and others – to split it up like Yugoslavia.

But you’d also have to add Greece (a pretty anti-American place for reasons similar to the reasons Iran is anti-American) as a major regional military power with the ability to sponsor powerful regional militias like Hezbollah and the Sadr movement.

Greece, of course, was completely integrated into the EU when the EU pumped billions of dollars into their economy. Iran on the other hand isn’t integrated into the American/Israeli sphere of influence.

So it’s not if they’re going to attack Iran. They are, under either party. It’s *how* they’re going to attack Iran. I don’t have the military/intelligence expertise to make an accurate prediction. And I don’t think we should depend on Seymour Hersh and his anonymous sources any more than we should depend on Fox and their anonymous sources.

To be honest, I don’t think even the neoconservatives know how they’re going do to it. That’s why we’re seeing speculation about why another 9/11 would “bring Americans unity”. Another 9/11 would make it that much easier.

10. frtitzcat - 22 August 2007

Never! I am for complete transparency! Public record! Freedom of the Press!

Besides this is an “important” topic for the ages: the donkeytale/Pyrrho Community Blogging Debates will someday be taught in college blogging classes.

In the future, they will award Phds in Community Blogging Ethics and Law degrees with specialization in blogging free speech rights.

Bet on it.

Thats my final word on the subject. Ever. Sorry again.

See you all at Peeders.

11. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Thanks for the link to that, HC… I’d never have seen it.

I bet nowhere in Bush’s speech will be mention that Ford wtihdrew from Vietnam. Tho his own commentary is actually quite interesting. Short sharp and very down to earth.

What a mess we are…

12. Hair Club for Men - 22 August 2007

When you think about it, Kerry’s behavior in his campaign revealed how he would have been as president.

Instead of educating the American people on what happened in Vietnam at a crucial point in history when the right was going to use the stab in the back myth to justify staying in Iraq, he distorted what Vietnam was about and ran as a “war hero”. He decided to put his own political ambition above the good of the American people.

How is this different from Karl Rove and Bush?

Answer: They’re more competant than he is.

13. marisacat - 22 August 2007

well the party ran him as a war hero and he agreed. Frankly I think he has been conflicted all his life.

One of his supporters literally freaked out in threads at Dkos in late spring summer of 2003, someone genuinely asked about all the many issues and stories and versions about the famous medals toss.

I remembered that there were several stories and from him, so I spent a lot of time before the SBV every surfaced, going back. Not just the medals, manyt hings….

I dreaded his run. Not even anticipating the rise again of John ONeill…

SOmetimes you have to accept that your personal story is too complex (and I do mean TOO COMPLEX) for Social Studies 101 and US Fiction 101. Which is where far too much of the USA! USA! is mired.

Oh well.

14. Hair Club for Men - 22 August 2007

well the party ran him as a war hero and he agreed. Frankly I think he has been conflicted all his life.

Which highlights American self-delusion about the MASSIVE WARCRIME that “we” committed in Vietnam.

Can you imagine if Richard von Weizsäcker had ran as a “war hero” in Germany?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Weizs%C3%A4cker

Oh I was against invading Russia but I decided I didn’t want to be a chickenhawk so I joined the Wermacht?

And then you got some kind of group called “Waffen SS Vets for Truth”?

Richard von Weizsäcker is not fit to be the President of Germany. When Germany was fighting the Communist menace of Stalin, Richard von Weizacker called himself a war criminal.

Richard von Weizacker approves of the rape of German women in Berlin.

Dresden, did Richard von Weizacker support this?

15. marisacat - 22 August 2007

In case anyone missed it and wants it, from yesterday’s thread:

the interview, Nir Rosen with Amy Democracy NOW!

16. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Well I knew I would not vote for him, as of Feb 04, but I SURE AS HELL was not voting for war. He ran as a war hero. People should read of his months as a swift boat captain. It is not pretty. I understand he went and served, when the mil clamped down and would not agree to a deferrment, to study in Paris iwth his new wife, but still…

let’s get real He and the party ran him as a hero.

I won’t endorse it.

17. marisacat - 22 August 2007

BTW, months ago when I bothered somewhere or other with a few comments on Kerry, i got an email or two that I had fallen for the SBVfT.

Hardly. It’s not that simple.

18. supervixen - 22 August 2007

I think it’s important for people to realize that one can be a veteran AND be against the war (both Vietnam and Iraq). Kerry chose to highlight the fact that he served. Interpreting that as support for the Vietnam war is far-fetched at best.

As for his personal story being “too complex”, well, Bush’s personal story is even more “complex”, but somehow he managed to gloss over all the ugly parts – at least, enough to get elected. The difference is that the Republican political machine is much more capable and intelligent than the Dems’. Also, the American public has been dumbed down sufficiently to perceive a fake “good ole boy” as presidential material.

19. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Well the Democrats fell down, and down quite a deep hole on running an operation against Bush’s complex story.

The Democrats persist in accepting the role of handmaiden party, ever the supplicant.

It makes them vulnerable.

San Francisco and No CA are loaded with anti war vets. Have been for decades.

20. supervixen - 22 August 2007

Agreed. They are too reactive. They don’t take action on their own. They’ve specialized in ineffectual complaining about stuff that the other side does.

I see it exemplified on DKos. Everyone rants and roars about Bill O’Reilly, Ann Coulter, Karl Rove et al. but few people attempt to take charge and create a powerful political movement that stands on its own.

And there’s far too much worry about how to attract the middle-of-the-roaders, how to convince Republicans to switch parties, etc. Fuck that. If you create something that has integrity and stands for important principles, people will be drawn to it.

21. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Link to excerpts of the Bush speech today. When there is a full text I will post a link.

22. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

The plan all along was to carve Iraq into smaller city-states (Mission Accomplished) which are easily “knocked off” by U.S. forces. A reconstituted nation-state of Iraq is not considered “trustworthy”: those Third World pro-American dictators have a nasty habit of turning on their masters, ala Saddam, and any fully functioning Iraqi nation would be an Islamic Republic.

No, easier to have Iraq divided into a dozen pieces, each piece managed here and there with a “surge” of troops. This is the “solution” to the “problem” of recalcitrant Iraqis: divide and conquer. That is why you now see many leaders of the militias desperately pleading that “Iraqis should not fight Iraqis, Sunni should not fight Shia”, because they realise too late they’ve fallen into the trap Cheney laid for them.

It may have been that the original plan was to run Iraq as a puppet regime, with some stooge taking the place of Saddam, but when Cheney realised that wouldn’t work, he decided to divide Iraq. Or perhaps divide and conquer was always The Plan. That is immaterial, of course; what matters is that the tribulations of the Iraqi people are only just beginning. Their misery will increase year after year, and no Iraqi (except for a few collaborators) will ever see one penny of the $8 trillion in oil wealth being stolen from their country.

23. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Bruce Fein–a Reaganite I’ve long detested–has an article front-and-centre in today’s Slate:

The Heart of Queens
Can Nancy Pelosi single-handedly take impeachment off the table?
By Bruce Fein
Posted Tuesday, Aug. 21, 2007, at 4:49 PM ET

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is proving to be the surprise O. Henry ending to last November’s elections. The American voters gave Democrats clear control of Congress, rebuked President George W. Bush, and voiced an unequivocal public craving to trade in customary narrow-minded politics for something more inspiring. Yet motivated by partisan concerns over the 2008 elections, the new speaker is following President Bush around like a sheep while he solidifies an imperial presidency and diminishes the Congress into irrelevancy. Just look at the latest ACLU advertisement targeting Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. The only thing Pelosi has retained for the Congress is small-minded earmarks to attract political contributions.

If Pelosi persists in her imperious, mean-spirited, and myopic thinking in disregard of her oath to support and defend the Constitution, members of the House should replace her with Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md.

According to public opinion polling, the percentage of voters supporting the impeachments of both President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are now approximately 45 and 54 percent, respectively. Most Americans instinctively feel the president is an untrustworthy steward of the Constitution’s checks and balances because, among other things, he flouts laws, prohibits White House aides from testifying before Congress, consistently defends an attorney general who is an inveterate liar, and detains citizens and noncitizens indefinitely as enemy combatants on his say-so alone. The prevailing barometer of acute public dissatisfaction with the White House surpasses the corresponding disaffection with President Richard M. Nixon when the Senate Watergate hearings began in May 1973. And Mr. Nixon had recently trounced Sen. George McGovern in the 1972 elections, winning 49 states.

The prospect of an impeachment inquiry by the House judiciary committee would concentrate the minds of the president and vice president wonderfully on obeying rather than sabotaging the Constitution. But Speaker Pelosi has at least figuratively joined hands with the White House in opposition. Emulating the Queen of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland, she has threatened the removal of Michigan Rep. John Conyers from his chairmanship of the House judiciary committee if an impeachment inquiry were even opened, according to reliable congressional chatter.

Link thingy: http://tinyurl.com/yt33rn

24. marisacat - 22 August 2007

They won’t see any reconstruction either (thus the French lies). Which is what Jon Lee Anderson of The New Yorker said, two weeks before AG broke in ’04.

Just horror and horror and paramilitaries to guard the oil from extraction to off load, and an air war.

25. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Bruce Fein has been wonderful on impeachment, not sure if you caught him on Moyers Journal a couple three weeks ago with John Nichols of the Nation.

Fein was the best of the two…

26. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Dear Fritz the Kitty:

Not to be rude, but I find Pyrrho incomprehensible. I have no ill-will towards the man, I just can’t work out the gibberish he spouts. Of course what he believes today is not what he believed yesterday nor will believe tomorrow. Pyrrho fancies himself an “intellectual” (albeit one who apparently lacks access to spellcheck or even a dictionary) and whilst pondering Deep Thoughts he decides this thing, that thing, and the other.

I find it all quite tedious, but more than that: How do you propose to “debate” Pyrrho when you are banned at MyRightWing and he is banned here? May I propose a neutral forum? If Francis L. Holland hasn’t banned you, try one of his blogs. Or start one of your own.

27. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Marisacat:

You know the world’s become quite the madhouse when we find ourselves cheering on a Reaganite on impeachment. But I take my allies where I find them, and Fein’s Reaganite conservatism grants him some much-needed “credibility” on the issue.

More from Fein’s Slate article, which is excellent:

Speaker Pelosi’s argument against impeachment is not high-minded, however. It is the fortunes of the Democratic Party, not the fate of the Constitution and the strength of democracy, that animate her decision. She opines that Democrats would risk losing control of Congress and the occupancy of the White House in 2008 if impeachment efforts moved forward. Many Democrats dispute that opinion. They maintain that citizens voted for authentic change last November and will revolt if Democrats ape President Bush and maneuver for partisan advantage while the Constitution burns. If an impeachment inquiry is blocked by Pelosi, and the White House is left undisturbed in its constitutional usurpations and celebration of perpetual war, voters may turn against Democrats for their political spinelessness.

Fein goes on: “But the Constitution is beyond party.”

Try telling that to Madame Speaker, Fein.

28. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

And one more bit from Fein and then no more:

Just as President Bush should not be a king, Speaker Pelosi should not be our queen. If she possessed a crumb of decency or respect for democracy, she would permit a “free” vote in the House to decide on an impeachment inquiry without any obligation to support her lead. It is certainly customary in parliamentary systems like Great Britain or Canada for party leaders to permit free votes on matters of conscience, like the death penalty or abortion. Deciding on whether to enforce the Constitution through impeachment is just as much a matter of moral scruple.

That’s good stuff.

29. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Well from the get go I have liked Gen Odom, NSA under Reagan on this war.

He also has said that the deaths in Vietnam were in vain. Takes a bit independence for that.

Larry king, who can be horrible on his own, but had good panels during the March and April weeks of initial invasion, had Odom on then.

Right, I have no problem making use of them, if they serve what I need.

30. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

I predict our friend Fritz will be the first person banned from Peeder’s new blog paradise.

BTW, on a personal note: I’m racking what’s left of my brain to think of a place to have winter holidays. Anybody want to suggest some place I can go in December that has surf, sand, and sun? And cheap liquor.

31. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

If one wants to understand why Moulitsas changed his political affiliation from “Republican” to “Democrat”, you need look no further than the sort of creatures who represent “Republicans” today. I thought the Reaganite were bad, but, surprise of surprise, many of them are just as aghast at Bush’s and Cheney’s depredations against the Constitution as any liberal. Bob Barr, another chap I’ve long detested (a hypocritical ex-Congressman from Georgia who was one of the lead dogs in the pack trying to impeach Clinton out of office), has joined with the ACLU to defend what’s left of our Constitutional liberties.

These are strange days, indeed, when I find myself agreeing with Barr and Fein and angry at Pelosi.

32. marisacat - 22 August 2007

LOL someone sent me an hilarious comment from peeder, that all he needs is a janitor, or a janitorial service (something like that) for the blog:

To take out the trash.

That’s the spirit! Concentrating on trolls and trash already.

Makes me laugh.

33. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Bob Barr is good on some things. A very nasty player tho.

34. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Just listening to Bush’s gung ho warmongering speech: war=good, withdrawal=bad

blah blah blah…he really does expect to be remembered as a Great Man. He’s so deluded.

What disturbs me are his constant references to Japan in WW2 because, although he doesn’t say it, ever since he’s been pResident he’s pushed the “Japan is our friend” meme and the underlying message that comes through for me is the idea that if you (nuclear) bomb a country into submission, later they’ll be your bud. (Watch out, Iran. I think Bush wants to make you America’s next BFF.)

When the Petraeus/WH report is released in a couple of weeks saying “surge on!”, I suppose some Dems will have little showy tantrums to appease their base and then it’ll be back to the usual “we have important work to do” – like planning xmas parties, I guess.

35. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Anybody want to suggest some place I can go in December that has surf, sand, and sun? And cheap liquor.

Jamaica! Irie. (Can I come?)

36. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

Miss D, previous thread, fingers crossed for you for the new job!

Ms xeno, hope you’re feeling better …. 🙂

Marisacat, thanks for the post. It looks like the vultures are rising to the top in various countries to get in on the spoils of war. Disgusting all of them. They should be at the UN, or somewhere, condemning the theft of Iraq’s oil, which I thought was a war crime.

That should be happening here, if we had an opposition Party it would. Kucinich is the only one I hear objecting to it and he was threatened with being called ‘out of order’ for bringing it up on the House floor. They are all complicit. I read yesterday that the death toll of Iraqis is over one million now. When do we call it genocide?

37. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Peeder’s Paradise Blog–Now with 110% More Free Speech!–will fail like all community blogs because he’s already worried about The Rules: Who gets to be “in” and who gets to be “out”.

Same sort of thinking that’s doomed the Democratic Party to irrelevance.

People always start these things wrong. You start with a set of principles, not with a rulebook.

I just read that diary “My current view on banning at MyRightWing” etc by Pyrrho. He’s quite the hypocrite.

What I find quite amusing is that both MSOC and her equally unhinged sidekick, Diane W., have absented themselves from the blog ever since the bannings took place. All that politics stuff is, like, you know, so totally boring. And besides, the blog can’t go to hell if MSOC doesn’t withdraw and wait for another chance to swoop in and stir up some more drama.

I can’t wait for the Pyrrho v. Donkeytale debates. It’ll make Lincoln-Douglas look like a friendly chat between strangers at a bus stop.

38. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Is Jamaica really cheap? I need to check on the weather for Jamaica during December. Hurricane season should be over by then, but the south coast got hit pretty hard by Hurricane Dean, so accommodations may be hard to come by.

39. marisacat - 22 August 2007

We do both those things, and a Democrat takes over the White House, and we can get single-payer health care. Maybe. But there is no way we can get it without accomplishing those two goals.

Oh please Tacked on to more of that “Bush Dog” slush…. The Democrats, none of them are pushing for single payer. NONE. From Pelosi’s own lips last summer, Single Payer is off the table.

Hillary h as not even bothered to formulate a health care plan.

Such bullshiters.

40. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

What is to be done about “affordable housing” in the United States, particularly in California?

“Maintaining its spot at the bottom of the affordability scale for an 11th consecutive quarter was Los Angeles-Long Beach-Glendale, Calif., with 3 percent of homes sold that were affordable to median-income families.”

\

Link: http://tinyurl.com/3doa4w

I should think some sort of government subsidies, or, failing that, some horrible natural disaster (plague, asteroid strike, killer earthquake) that fetches off a third of the population.

Discussing housing prices in conjunction with southern California, where I lived for seven years, brings out the misanthrope in me.

41. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Re: Kerry and psychological conflict.

All combat veterans, unless they are out-and-out sociopaths, struggle with guilt and conflicting thoughts/feelings their entire lives. Kerry cannot escape the fact that while he was “doing his duty”, he killed men. Other human beings. So, too, did I. One doesn’t want to think of oneself as a monster, but neither does one want to think of oneself as a traitor.

People want to think well of themselves and of their country. It’s quite plain that Kerry has struggled, in vain, his entire adult life to reconcile what cannot be reconciled.

42. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

Fein goes on: “But the Constitution is beyond party.”

He has been excellent on impeachment, but he loses me re Steny Hoyer. Does he really think Hoyer would be any better than Pelosi? He’s fully behind this war … I doubt that would be an improvement. Btw, is it possible to start Impeachment proceedings against the Speaker?

**************

So tragic, they have given up on the Utah Miners ….

Utah town vents anger, questions mine safety

HUNTINGTON, Utah – With six trapped coal miners all but left for dead in a crumbling mountain, families and friends vented their frustration at the mine’s owner Tuesday and asked: Was it too dangerous to be working there in the first place???

At a funeral Tuesday for one of the three rescue workers killed, a friend of one of the trapped miners confronted mine co-owner Bob Murray and accused him of skimping on the rescue efforts. He then handed Murray a dollar bill.

“This is just to help you out so you don’t kill him,” the man said.

Murray’s head snapped back as if slapped. When the man wouldn’t take back the bill, Murray threw the money on the ground. “I’ll tell you what, son, you need to find out about the Lord,” Murray said.

It was an emotional exchange with an owner who had insisted that rescue of the miners was his top priority since the collapse. And it revealed more than just the frustration of people in this mining community in central Utah’s coal belt, where most still speak in whispers when criticizing the officials whose businesses pay their bills.

They need to stop whispering. Yes, it is revealing that in this country people cannot expect proper safety standards for businesses and must risk their lives in order to make a living.

Are we a Fascist State yet?

43. brinn - 22 August 2007

Shadowthief — have you ever been to South Padre? It has its charms in December…the liquor is plentiful, but may not fit your definition of cheap! 😉

44. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Shall we pass the hat around and buy Pelosi a new table? It’ll have to be much bigger: apparently, the one she’s using at the moment hasn’t got room for ANYTHING: health care, impeachment, stopping the occupation of Iraq. It must be one of those tiny occasional tables that barely has room for a medium-sized lamp. Let’s get her a great big dining room table with leaves that one can insert to expand the length.

45. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Brinn, I have been to Corpus Christi and South Padre, but in the summer time. I’d have to investigate the December weather.

I want to be lazy on the beach and have drinks brought to me by helpful natives. I also want the option of hiring said natives to transport me on a litter if need be. I’m a generous tipper, too.

Last time I was in the Bahamas, my hotel was a place that was rather rustic: no telephones and no television. It was heaven.

46. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

If you create something that has integrity and stands for important principles, people will be drawn to it.

Exactly and those who are still supporting the Dem party as they wait for Pelosi’s “ingenious” impeachment/Iraq fantasyland plan to take hold continue to compromise their principles to no end while they blame their behaviour on Bush and the GOP and ignore the Dems tanking numbers.

Just wait til ’08 though. Send money! Things will change. We promise.

Not only does Bushco act like an abusive spouse, the Dems have adopted that tactic too and the base cowers from the beatings but accepts the make up flowers the next morning.

47. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Yes, I am not paraphrasing. She used “off the table” last summer aobut single payer.

I actually resent the mediocrity and inherent dismissal in all of this, from the lot of them.

And watching poor slobs sell the scheisse.

48. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Is Jamaica really cheap? I need to check on the weather for Jamaica during December. Hurricane season should be over by then, but the south coast got hit pretty hard by Hurricane Dean, so accommodations may be hard to come by.

Cheap, yes. Check around for deals. December is prime time for vacations though so it’ll cost you a bit more then. Hurricane season ends around October, iirc.

The popular resorts are on the north coast – Mo Bay, Ocho Rios, Negril. I haven’t read any damage reports from those areas yet. Kingston isn’t a tourist haven although the Bob Marley museum is there. I spent a month in Kingston and it’s very much what you’d expect from a city – business, lots of people, busyness. (The traffic is nuts – lots of honking horns, speeding and goats.) 🙂 Huge contrasts in wealth/poverty.

And it all depends on the type of tourist you are, really. If you like to see the “real” Jamaica, you can easily do that in Mo Bay. If you like to be sheltered, there are plenty of resorts to accommodate that too.

If you’re seriously thinking about it, drop me a line. I have some contacts.

49. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

catnip’s vacation tips are in spam.

50. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

or not

51. wilfred - 22 August 2007

#30 The only places with cheap airfare in the Caribbean are Jamaica and Puerto Rico (from NY anyway). Try looking at Vieques and the even quieter Culebra (rustic and not developed). You can take a ferry to both places to save money.

52. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

ST, Nancy’s table is fine, it’s what she’s chosen to put on it, like Secret Trade Deals, that’s the problem.

Dean regains strength: nears Mexican coast

Dean swept across the Yucatan on Tuesday after making landfall as a ferocious Category 5 hurricane, toppling trees, power lines and houses — but sparing glitzy resorts on the Mayan Riviera.

Driving rain, poor communications and impassable roads made it difficult to determine how isolated Mayan communities fared in the sparsely populated jungle where Dean made landfall after killing 13 people in the Caribbean.

Greatly weakened from that overland journey, Dean moved across the Bay of Campeche in the southern Gulf of Mexico, home to more than 100 oil platforms, three major oil exporting ports and the Cantarell oil field, Mexico’s most productive.

The entire field’s operations were shut down just ahead of the storm, reducing daily production by 2.7 million barrels of oil and 2.6 billion cubic feet of natural gas.

snip,

Nuclear plant nearby

The storm was projected to slam the coastline near Laguna Verde, Mexico’s only nuclear power plant, which earlier suspended production.

53. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

But but but…the Kossackatonians have assured me that Nancy Pelosi is really a devious genius who is lulling the Republicans into a false sense of security by pretending not to do anything to stop them.

See, Madame Pelosi is like the police officer who witnesses a series of bank robberies, and could arrest the bank robbers at any time, but doesn’t do so because she wants the bank robbers to pull a REALLY BIG heist and then she can slap the cuffs on them!

Can you sue the Speaker of the House for political malpractise? Finally put those pesky lawyers to some good use.

54. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

brinn!

Was your husband banned from MLW?

55. brinn - 22 August 2007

re#45 — I dunno how much travel $$ you have to spend, but a couple of the islands in the Gulf of Thialand fit that definition of heaven….when I worked in Japan, I spent two weeks in the Gulf on an island called Kho Phan Ghan…most excellent. Quiet, hardly an inch of concrete to be found, drinks and food of the highest order and a hamck on the front porch of the $2/night cabin (on the beach). AND if you have a hankering for some noise and craziness — on the other side of the island they host a full moon party once per month that would rival and London rave! 🙂

‘course all of this was 15 years ago, so things may have changed…and, if you have the $$ I suggesting flying down to the main island and taking the boat over, rather than the bus…driving through the inland on my way to the Gulf gave me a huge dose of the guilts for indulging my decadance.

56. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Other vacation suggestions:

I’ve heard that Costa Rica is a great place to visit. Belize as well (but I think it was affected by the hurricane). And then there’s Cuba – for us canucks, anyway.

57. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Speaking of Thailand, I read the book The Beach last winter. Good novel.

58. brinn - 22 August 2007

re#53 — yep, he was, catnip. He cares not a whit — just wishes he had gotten a few more licks in, especially heinous was Paul in San Francisco — what a humougous asshole. (Another one of MSOC’s “dear friends”). He. found the whole thing hugely amsuing.

59. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Tuston – who has not been around for a while – goes to Belize quite a lot.

I will drop him an email and see if they are OK. I assume working on the restaurant opening… but it has been a while.

60. brinn - 22 August 2007

Mcat — I was just thinking of Tuston the other day — send him my well wishes, would you? I am sure they are horrendously busy, but in a good way! I miss him around here!
😉

61. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

I’m not sure how much is in the holiday fund. Both of the jars marked “fun money” are full, but one is mostly pennies, while the other one has quite a lot of silver in it. Unfortunately, it’s all in US dollars.

62. lucid - 22 August 2007

Lousy movie… [The Beach, that is].

63. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

#58. That was quite the “debate”, brinn. So I suppose we can expect a FP post from MSOC about why she banned your mate? (Ha. As if. Just kick ’em out the back door and move on.)

(Wait for it. Wait for it. I expect MSOC will now try to post a comment here saying how she actually didn’t ban him.)

64. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

And yes, I will go to the travel agent with the jars and set them on her desk and say, “Where can I go with this many coins, please?”

Have I mentioned my travel agent is a very humorless German lady? With my luck, she’ll send me to Beirut. Which actually is a lovely place when Israelis are bombarding it.

65. lucid - 22 August 2007

btw – OT

For all you NYC vipers, I’m playing a show tomorrow night at Kenny’s Castaways at 10pm. It’s at 157 Bleeker.

It’s our first show with our new bassist. Check us out if you have a free slot on your calendar.

66. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Yikes, that last sentence SHOULD have read: “Which actually is a lovely place when Israelis are NOT bombarding it.”

Good job I’m not running for political office in the States. My gaffe-a-minute would sink me before I got out of the primaries.

67. lucid - 22 August 2007

And yes, I will go to the travel agent with the jars and set them on her desk and say, “Where can I go with this many coins, please?”

She’ll give you a voucher for a free colonoscopy courtesy of DHS.

68. brinn - 22 August 2007

er, ST, surely you meant when the Israeli’s AREN’T bombing it? 😉

I would love to go to Beruit someday, small guy’s preschool teacher’s hometown — she been in the US for several decades, and got her parents over here too. She’s a wonderful lady, I could barely look her in the eye last spring — it never ceases to amaze me how folks like her can live here without wanting to smack each and every one of us on a daily basis.

69. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Well, MSOC just said “Goodbye, 5Hearts” and claimed elsewhere that “lostmywinter” was actually Brinn posting under her husband’s user name.

Which is actually how MSOC got ’round her ban at DailyKos (used her husband Adam’s account until Hunter banned Adam’s account, as well). Naturally, MSOC has projected her own behaviour onto other people.

70. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Lousy movie… [The Beach, that is].

Good to know. I haven’t seen it yet. The book was worth reading though. A GenX version of Lord of the Flies.

71. BooHooHooMan - 22 August 2007

ST Pyrrho fancies himself an “intellectual” (albeit one who apparently lacks access to spellcheck or even a dictionary)…..

…..As a confrere in that dept, I should be offended, but shirley
I have no beet with that. As one of the Impeach the Fuckers Now Guy, I saw Pyrrho’s runoff at DK and was disgusted. It was like watching a Purina Cat Chow commercial wherein the kitten takes a shotgun blast for doin the cha cha cha.

Aside from other stuff that could be easily written off as online metadrivel, he spoke out against the arbitrary bannings, authoritarian groupthink, criticized kos’ “business” model, and most importantly to me, came down on the side of Impeachment. Consequently, I consider the lad as having had a store of goodwill that he has been drawing on since, not that it matters a fliff. Major withdrawals on such an “account” ,though, include what I think are foolish accommodations to adversaries , the granting of civility and wafffling towards individuals who are clear pricks….. That said, I should be the last person to hold forth on anyone’s tedium, but I’m either too lazy , incapable or well past looking for a unified theory of human behavior and thought….

I’ll eat waffles when their serving up steaming piles of shit down the rest of the chow line. Some butter and syrup works for me too. Everyday? Eventually I’d begin to talk to the little waffles in the tray and suspect their motives. Why hang with the turds in the steam trays?? Why the repetitive emails? And what’s with the cigarettes on Youtube? Eventually I would lose it.: Get out!– Conciliating waffle bastards, I’d think, before heading for the door. LOL……

72. brinn - 22 August 2007

re#69 yep, ST, that was pretty fucking funny, he said hey yo, come look at this! I think it was his posting of that thread from January — I had shown him that back then, and he has pretty good search skills in any case, if he wanted to find it….he found it pretty telling that they just ignored the fact that he had had an account there for almost 2 years.

And of course, MSOC is projecting, that is all she is capable of these days — it’s everyone else’s fault BUT HERS that her blog is sucks shit these days, when she has done NOTHING to make it better. And has been a vile bitch to anyone who has tried to suggest ways in which she might do so.

73. lucid - 22 August 2007

Beruit – wish I could have gone when it was ‘the Paris of the middle east’… And I wish I could have seen Baghdad in its glory days as well… seat of Babylon, site of wonders of the ancient world. I used to have vivid dreams about living in ancient Baghdad as a child. Now it’s an irradiated pile of rubble, death and horror.

74. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

I make fun of other people’s typos and other offences against the English language, yet commit them myself and expect swift and immediate pardon.

I’m the Scooter Libby of blogging.

75. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

I was thinking about Tuston also, probably busy with the new restaurant. Also, Earth to Meg ….

Brinn, if anyone should have been banned (if your policy is to ban people) Paul in SF deserved it for his performance in that thread alone imho.

***********

Maybe some of the anti-Immigrant crowd in this country should ask themselves why Mexicans are risking their lives to get to the US. Imo, anyone who supported NAFTA is obligated to do something about the poverty in Mexico.

Mexican NAFTA Experience Raises Questions for Free Trade

After 10 years of experience with NAFTA, two million small- and medium-size companies are bankrupt,” she said just before a large protest march in downtown Miami on Thursday. “Agriculture is suffering tremendously. Public policies to support farmers, including rural banking systems, are inadequate.” According to Atilano, the economic policies imposed on Mexico through NAFTA have driven more and more people into poverty, decimating the middle class. Nearly 50 percent of the population of Mexico is living in poverty.

Atilano also sounded a cautious note on the subject of investment. “The promise of NAFTA was that huge investment would come to Mexico, but now we offer cheap labor, lots of taxes breaks, low social security payments, and fewer environmental regulations. And the companies don’t allow workers to form unions.” She also said that the lack of decent jobs is increasing migration, which she says can be very dangerous. “People are killed, or arrested and treated like criminals when all they are trying to do is survive and create a better life for their families. We are fighting for an immigration treaty with the US but the Bush administration won’t negotiate one.”

I think Mexicans have a right to come here. We owe them. Has Hillary had anything to say about this? And we still don’t know what Secret Trade Deals Nancy was talking to the Bush WH about.

Too bad the blahhgers didn’t give these statistics to the Candidates and ask them if they support NAFTA and why they are all in favor of preventing these people from making a living seeing as how their way of life was pretty much decimated by NAFTA signed by a Democratic president.

76. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Well, MyRightWing is tolerable in a mediocre sort of way when MSOC and especially Diane W. absent themselves from the blog. The resentment over the latest round of bannings is already boiling to the surface, though. Same as it ever was.

My humble suggestion to those who aspire to community blogging? Quit trying to draw audience away from DailyKos. The Kossackatonians like it where they are, and a pale imitation of DailyKos is nothing anybody wants, anyway. Go find an audience elsewhere–it’s a great big world and there are plenty of ways to build blog audience (for example, by clever writing and actually discussing politics instead of The Rules).

77. Hair Club for Men - 22 August 2007

Fein is placing too much emphasis on Pelosi.

She’s just articulating the interests of the ruling class, which won’t impeach unless there’s a price to be paid (like in 1973) for not impeaching. Since the American people are passive, demobilized and starting to go down the yellow brick road of scapegoating Mexicans, they’ve got nothing to worry about.

With this in mind, with the idea that the ruling class won’t back impeachment and doesn’t want it, from Pelosi’s point of view she’s just being smart and not letting the Democratic Party hang themselves out as scapegoats. I can’t say I disagree with her.

It’s not Pelosi’s fault. It’s our fault. EEEk. Gotta go. There are Mexicans coming and I have to go hide all the white women.

78. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Well, Fein is claiming that Pelosi has threatened to remove Conyers as Chair of the Judiciary Committee if he begins impeachment proceedings.

If so, that’s extraordinary and Conyers should publicly call her on it.

79. Revisionist - 22 August 2007

Jamaica – Long story short — I WILL NEVER GO BACK. I HATE JYou are better off just going to Florida. If you do go, the temps are fine but it could get pretty cloudy. Nothing like a day at the beach with no sunshine

Belize, Hondoruas etc are much better choices for the Carribbean on the cheap

The Pacific side of Mexico also had some nice spots that are still pretty cheap

80. CSTAR - 22 August 2007

Ai, Cuchi Cuchi nena….

(that’s Kouchi, Kouchi…)

81. lucid - 22 August 2007

HC – don’t forget that those Mexicans are carrying marihuana! So hide the children too.

82. marisacat - 22 August 2007

well I have read that the DC Dems are NOT happy about the impeachment moves being made in the states.

In particular they dispatched Inslee and Patty Murray to put out the fire in WA, for one.

They are IMMOVEABLE on the war, on impeachment on so much. Health care, they are happy to leave it to the states.

States Rights is the oNe party mantra.

STOP VOTING FOR THEM.

Christ, they are oligarchs.

83. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Jamaica – Long story short — I WILL NEVER GO BACK.

Yikes. What happened?

84. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Oh I think Conyers is in early muddle. It’s been interesting to watch the kerfluffle over calling him out. What BULLSHIT.

So many of that bunch should retire.

Including the senate delgation from MA.

Give someone else a chance. Or like Meehan they will remove themselves. Why bother.

85. Revisionist - 22 August 2007

The drinks on the beach shit you imagine only happens at resorts. If you must do Jaimaca, Negril is the place.

86. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

For vacation, how about Venezuela? I would love to go there.

Travel with us in Venezuela

Venezuela is located North of South America. It is a country full of beauties and contrasts. In this site, we want to show you our country. Enjoy its beaches, mountains, plains and nature. Learn about its history and geography. Get the country facts. Prepare your trip to Venezuela. Make Venezuela yours. A country to love…

Margarita

The Caribbean pearl, one of the main tourist attractions ….

Some good info on that site. It looks like a stunningly beautiful country. Don’t know about cost though …..

87. marisacat - 22 August 2007

elected Democrats won’t discuss NAFTA.

God forbid. You know they only did Great Good from 92 – 00.

88. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

Lucid, good luck tomorrow night ….

89. Revisionist - 22 August 2007

Catnip — Its the fucking third world is the short story.

90. Marie - 22 August 2007

Marisa – excellent FP piece. The French were duped as easily by Sarkozy as Americans were by GWB. Of course it’s always easier to sell the fantasy of free market nirvana than socialism because “it’s hard work” to implement and maintain public policies that benefits the whole better than anything the whole could ever get and sustain in a laissez faire economic policy. Sarkozy knows that he has to tread into those waters more cautiously than Reagan through GWB did simply because the French have come to know and like far more socialism than Americans have and will not be as complacent as they are whittled down. Doubt that he has as much room to join the “coalition of the willing” as he seems to think he has. If so, he won’t be around as long as some may have feared.

Marisa – once again would like to tap your memory. Did you ever run into GOTV? Somehow I confused her with GoVote (a Lieberman supporter) that I had battles with long ago. GOTV tells me that she was a Dean supporter and yet, for some reason I have a negative instead of positive impression of her. She also tells me that she and I never engaged in any sparring. Not rejecting what she says, but before I hit that “edit/delete” key in my brain, thought I would check in with your far superior memory. Thanks – no biggie if you have nothing to add.

91. BooHooHooMan - 22 August 2007

74– ST, Hell I’m lucky if I can spell LOL.. anyway I respected his defence of OPOL and a podcast he did with him and other such stuff. I don’t blame him for valuing mcat’s opinion and I actually prefer to see his personal loyalty to MSOC rather than convoluted abstraction.

I needled Pyrrho in the past and suggested his stuff was like this Python clip


(worth a watch in its own right)

92. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Via Spiegel: Iraq’s Elite Fleeing in Droves

One in ten Iraqis has left the country. Baghdad’s elite are trying to make ends meet in neighboring Jordan and Syria. Washington wants the United Nations to address the refugee crisis. In the meantime, the country is losing its best minds — the very people needed to rebuild Iraq.

And check out this political bullshit:

…those Iraqis who do manage to make it abroad are better off not mentioning any ransom money they may have paid for kidnapped relatives, especially not in the United States. US immigration authorities define such payments as “material support” for terrorist organizations.

A handy excuse for the US to refuse Iraqi refugees.

Iraq, a country still shaken by daily violence, is currently the scene of what is likely the biggest refugee disaster since the displacement of Palestinians in the Arab-Israeli War in 1948.

Yet, how much do you hear or read about this in the MSM? Not a helluva lot.

93. lucid - 22 August 2007

SB – thanks… hopefully we’ll have a crowd.

I think I’d have to go to Los Roques… That looks spectacularly gorgeous.

As for other suggestions ST, I would second Central American, particularly Costa Rica. It is very cheap, gorgeous & small enough that you could easily go to both the Atlantic and Pacific sides in one visit. Everyone I’ve known who has gone raves about it.

94. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Catnip — Its the fucking third world is the short story.

It is and you have to be careful – no doubt about that. In the end though, since I’m not a touristy type who sticks to resorts, I appreciated the education about what it’s like to live in extreme poverty (even though I was considered “poor” in Canada when I went down there) while maintaining a very impressive and authentic sense of spirit in the midst of it all. I’d make the comparison between the jazz/blues movement in places like NOLA – music that speaks of the people to describe how reggae music exemplifies the angst and the hope. It’s real. Then again, I’m one of those bleeding heart idealists who counts on stark reality to keep me humble.

95. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007



lol – I posted that on my blog once to rave reviews, even from right-wingers. 😉

I’ve tried to understand pyrrho (really I have, she said with the back of her hand against her forehead) but, alas, I’d be better off trying to master string theory (does not compute either).

96. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Marie

I constantly mixed those two up. I’d have to wait til one or the other showed up pell mell at the name Lieberman to get it straight…

Gosh sorry.

97. marisacat - 22 August 2007

All I did ws innocently drop in at News.yahoo.com.

And what do I see. The Chinese raid a factory making dirty chopsticks.

Well, it ain’t shark attack summer, I guess.

98. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

al Maliki revolts:

BAGHDAD (Reuters) – Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki reacted sharply on Wednesday to U.S. criticism of his government’s slow progress towards reconciliation in a clear sign of growing tension with his most important ally.

Speaking during a visit to Damascus, he said no one outside Iraq had the right to set timetables for progress.
[…]
With Crocker three weeks away from delivering a pivotal progress report to Congress that could signal a change of U.S. policy in Iraq, Bush also said there was “a certain level of frustration” with Iraq’s leadership.

Maliki’s response was blunt. “The Iraqi government was elected by the Iraqi people,” he told reporters in the Syrian capital.

“Maybe this person who made a statement yesterday is upset by the nature of our visit to Syria,” Maliki said, without making clear if he was referring to Bush or Crocker.

“These statements do not concern us a lot … We will find many around the world who will support us in our endeavor.”

And Bush tried to backtrack during his speech today saying it’s up to the Iraqis to decided what happens to their government (right…sure).

And this is just ludicrous, obviously:

Washington has set Maliki’s government a series of benchmarks, including a revenue-sharing oil law, which it sees as key to ending the sectarian conflict which has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis.

I’ll say one thing for Bushco – invoking Vietnam today to distract from the Iraq war sure was a neat trick. Nothing like re-fighting old battles to keep people busy while the new battles rage on.

99. BooHooHooMan - 22 August 2007

Marie- re GOTV

“douchebag anti-Impeachment shepherd” was my uninhibited free association….fortunately I’m not paying for a psychiatric consult on for that bit of enlightenment….

in light of mcat’s call here in #’s 82, 84 , respectively…

well I have read that the DC Dems are NOT happy about the impeachment moves being made in the states. …..

Oh I think Conyers is in early muddle. It’s been interesting to watch the kerfluffle over calling him out. What BULLSHIT.

A quick look see and voila …check the date on this plop o’ crap:

An Argument “Against” Impeachment
by GOTV
Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 03:12:37 PM PDT

Let’s get one thing straight right off the top: I most assuredly believe that George Bush, Richard Cheney, and Alberto Gonzales are categorically worthy of impeachment {bla bla bla} {snip}……

Still, clamoring for impeachment at this time and under the circumstances currently apparent is to me a potentially catastrophic folly, a waste of precious time and political capital, and the one thing that can, more than anything else, give the next presidential election to the Republicans.

100. BooHooHooMan - 22 August 2007

97 Wha?? No naked lady with hammer attack today???

101. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Here’s a vacation idea for you, ST: Spend a week at the “Acatemy” if you have cats. You might even meet Kreskin!

102. brinn - 22 August 2007

LOL!! I notice that the spouse’s diary is back on the reco list at MyLost Whinge….

too funny!

103. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

“IEDs” coming through the mail? Can’t they just stick to “letter bombs”? Sheesh. Next thing you know they’ll be calling them weapons of postal destruction.

104. Marie - 22 August 2007

Marisa – thanks. Now I don’t feel so bad about having confounded the two.

Interesting Ray McGovern piece at Common Dreams. http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/22/3330/ — Might do a diary on it, but it would be a thin one — and not sure my point would be heard.

105. Intermittent Bystander - 22 August 2007

Fainting Goat alert! Top of the wrecked list!

FYI to BHHM – reply to you at the bottom of La Louche thread.
Maybe I’ll switch to Intermittent Blogstander, instead?

On the hoof . . . .

106. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

#104.

I have referred to them in the most unflattering and foul terms but have settled on referring to those Democratic rollovers – for it is NOT ALL OF THEM – as Fainting Goat Democrats.

The diarist just couldn’t make that final leap. Must save the Dems at all costs.

107. Revisionist - 22 August 2007

Catnip —

Here is one small incident. At one point we were stranded in the middle of no where because the scooters we rented were 30 years old and had the original intertubes. Not one part of them had not been patched. Most of the patches had patches. These things were unsafe to drive anywhere. Two flat tires. NO ONE would help us. Plenty of people stopped but everyone wanted cash up front to help us. We didnt have cash only credit cards. People just drove off and left us. I finally had to trade my shoes to a farmer to give is a ride into the next town. The day went downhill from there.

You mentioned reggae. I believe that particular day ended with the Ziggy Marley concert. Except it was a fake. they took everyones money and left them waiting at the fair grounds for hours. It ended with a riot and a shooting as fights broke out.

108. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Meanwhile, back at the WH ranch:

A federal court case involving Internet wiretapping has revealed the Bush administration at its worst.

I don’t say this lightly. Senior attorneys from the U.S. Department of Justice showed up before the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals last week and argued that the president should be able to violate federal law–and that judges can’t do anything about it.

Their argument rests on something called the “state secret” privilege, which traditionally has been used to pull the plug on lawsuits that could, for instance, disclose national-security secrets such as a crashed military plane’s true mission.

But now President Bush and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales have expanded it to throw out a lawsuit (PDF) saying that AT&T illegally opened its network to the National Security Agency. Their arguments rest on the principle that even if the president is breaking the law, he can get away with it as long as he invokes national security. Courts would be demoted to a clerical role of noting that the “state secrets” privilege has been invoked and dismissing the case post-haste.

This would, if taken to its logical conclusion, allow the president to get away with murder.

Case in point: Iraq

109. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

#107. That’s why I said it’s important to be careful – preparing for the unpredictable. It’s all too common in countries like that for people to expect money in return for helping out because the poverty is just atrocious and there will always be uncouth types who will do anything they can to take advantage of a tourist. (I could tell you stories – you have to get creative sometimes).

It ended with a riot and a shooting as fights broke out.

Definitely a scary moment! When I first went down there I was absolutely shocked and intimidated by the police carrying M16s around casually – as if they were ready for a military coup to break out at any time.

For tourists who want guaranteed concerts, there’s Reggae Sunsplash. I went twice – good security etc and a really good time.

I’m just not the type to settle for going to a place like Florida because, as risky as it is, I’d rather experience different cultures and realities.

110. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

BHHM I agree with you re Pyrrho …. I think he got himself on the secret email troll patrol list for trying to stand up for some principles and yes, for Opol’s right to post diaries about impeachment. You have to give credit where it’s due. That diary of Opol’s was when he was definitely close to being banned. I think everyone who went in a attacked the ‘administrators’ Hunter and DhinMi deserve credit, but pyrrho was fiercely attacked by Hunter, out of proportion to the point where since then, I’ve considered Hunter to be a total lunatic as well as a bad writer.

The hatred for ‘lefties’ was on ugly display in public in that diary. Even Major Danby (who was the subject of the diary) spoke up for Opol in the end. The nastiness was a real turnoff to many, many people. But pyrrho did take them on directly. And he also promoted peeder’s diary on kos at MLW. That wasn’t too popular either.

Questioning Kos’ business practices is a definite banning offense. I wonder why?

111. Revisionist - 22 August 2007

Friends and I were nearly gunned down on the beach in Mexico. Soldier with M16. Middle of the nite. He was embarrassed. Students and leftists had raided a police station earlier that day, killed all the police and stole the weapons. They were rounding up any young people.

112. lucid - 22 August 2007

Enough with the fear mongering! Yes, every year people all over the world experience flu symptoms. A very small percentage die. That’s tragic. That’s life. Eat right and you’ll probably be fine.

Frankly, I’m more concerned about the disease and destitution faced by people in the world who can’t eat right because of the neo-liberal economic destruction of all subsistence living in third world countries [not to mention large swaths of this country]. Perhaps we should be investing in food infrastructure and sanitation rather than shoveling truck loads of money to the plutocracy?

113. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

#111. Sheesh! Maybe you should just stay home, rev. 😉

114. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

#112. I just don’t understand why Dr Flu is a FPer. How many diaries can one write about flu? And – all together now – “what does that have to do with electing Democrats?”

115. lucid - 22 August 2007

LC – the Dems have special laser guns attached to their eyesockets that target ‘flu virus’ and ‘knock it out over there before it it gets here’… or something like that.

116. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Yes, Virginia (and others states), there really is a big world out there:

Two-thirds of US adults admit to being in the dark about political issues outside the United States, and only a third are well-versed in US politics, the results of a poll published Tuesday showed.

More Harris poll results:

Neither the President nor Congress is given good marks by the public for their handling of the economy. Almost two-thirds (63%) view President George W. Bush’s job performance on the economy in a negative light while 71 percent view Congress’ job performance on the economy negatively. Only one-quarter (27%) view President Bush positively on the economy, while just 14 percent say the same about Congress.
[…]
While partisans are of different mind about the President, the same is not true about Congress. Seven in ten of both Republicans and Democrats (69% and 71% respectively) as well as 79 percent of Independents view the job Congress is doing on the economy in a negative light.

The Dems are failing on so many fronts.

117. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

#115. rofl…the new front in the war on terra.

118. lucid - 22 August 2007

Not to mention… somehow I don’t think the 41 other countries that have a longer lifespan than ours are nearly as obsessed with the over-cautious, medicalized crap Americans are subject to on the tele, in conversation & just walking down the fucking street. I wonder why that is.

119. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Sometimes I think I should just spend my days watching reruns of The Waltons. Such a happy family! (snort)

120. lucid - 22 August 2007

So is that the secret to Canada’s impressive average lifespan? All that Walton watching going on?

121. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

No. Little House on the Prairie, I think. Plus all of that hockey-watching gets the blood flowing and the occasional jump off the couch when your team scores a goal is obviously a reliable exercise regime – unless, of course, your team is tanking. At that point, it’s advisable to tune into the calming sport of figure skating.

I believe shivering also burns a lot of calories.

122. supervixen - 22 August 2007

Shadowthief, we have been very pleased with our experiences at the small beach towns of Troncones and Barra de Potosi on the Pacific coast of Mexico. You fly into Ixtapa.

Barra de Potosi

Troncones

The beach there is like paradise. Hotels/B&Bs aren’t cheap but you can find inexpensive places to eat and drink. It’s best to rent a car to get around.

If you’d like more details, feel free to email me at feministsupervixens AT yahoo.

123. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Can I e-mail you too, SV? Just to bug you? I’m kind of bored today. I’ll come up with something to write to you about though. I promise.

124. supervixen - 22 August 2007

LOL! yes please do write me. I’m keeping tabs on two 7-year-old boys today so I need distraction 🙂

125. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Meet the fainiting goats, Pt. 2

The leading Democratic candidates for the White House have fallen into line with the campaign to praise military progress while excoriating Iraqi leaders for their unwillingness to reach political accommodations that could end the sectarian warfare.

“We’ve begun to change tactics in Iraq, and in some areas, particularly in Anbar province, it’s working,” Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) said in a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars on Monday.

“My assessment is that if we put an additional 30,000 of our troops into Baghdad, that’s going to quell some of the violence in the short term,” Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) echoed in a conference call with reporters Tuesday. “I don’t think there’s any doubt that as long as U.S. troops are present that they are going to be doing outstanding work.”

Advisers to both said theirs were political as well as substantive statements, part of a broader Democratic effort to frame Petraeus’s report before it is released next month by preemptively acknowledging some military success in the region. Aides to several Senate Democrats said they expect that to be a recurring theme in the coming weeks, as lawmakers return to hear Petraeus’s testimony and to possibly take up a defense authorization bill and related amendments on the war.

Yay war! rah rah rah

126. Revisionist - 22 August 2007

SV — do you know if Zihuatanejo has been built up. It was a recommended destination several years ago for not being totally touristy yet.

127. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

LOL! yes please do write me. I’m keeping tabs on two 7-year-old boys today so I need distraction

You’re brave! They don’t have you tied to a chair so they can taunt you and wreck the house yet?

128. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Can someone translate this for me please? I don’t speak DLC.

House Democratic Caucus Chairman Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) made a round of calls yesterday to freshman Democrats, some of whom recently returned from trips to Iraq and made news with their positive comments on military progress. “I’m not finding any wobbliness on the war — at all,” Emanuel said.

129. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Oh hey – I just thought of the perfect vacation destination: MAMZ’s family resort in El Salvador. Maybe FLH will pay your expenses if you promise to file investigative reports. Couldn’t hurt to ask.

130. mattes - 22 August 2007

#128….translation:

Israel wants us to stay.

….Kidding!

131. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

lol mattes…did you watch Christian Amanpour’s special last nite? If so, what did you think of it?

132. lucid - 22 August 2007

Rev – Apparently escaped con Tim Robbins & ex con Morgan Freeman are running a small resort there. 😉

133. bayprairie - 22 August 2007

When the Petraeus/WH report is released in a couple of weeks saying “surge on!”, I suppose some Dems will have little showy tantrums to appease their base and then it’ll be back to the usual “we have important work to do” – like planning xmas parties, I guess.

or playing word games revolving around what pwoggies are to fall in line and call the media this week.

you know, more of the infamous “important shit”.

134. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

More form that WaPo piece:

“For people who believe in peace through strength, the cavalry is coming,” said Ari Fleischer, a former Bush White House press secretary who is helping to head Freedom’s Watch.

OMG. I thought there was hope for Ari after he left the WH. Apparently the Bush Stupidity (BS) virus™ is stronger that I originally thought.

135. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

It appears to have been entirely unnecessary to ban Pyrrho from DailyKos. If the Kossackianites had only waited a bit, Pyrrho would have changed his mind and rationalised it with his “philosophy”.

Sorry if I appear to be hard on him, just not in the mood for anyone’s intellectual wankery.

If being banned from DailyKos is the sole proof required of virtue, then many of us here are virtuous, indeed. I was banned for standing up for principles, and so were many others. The only difference is, Pyrrho is now on record at MyLeftWing as validating MSOC’s mood swing-induced decision to ban a whole slew of people as morally just. How firm was his principled defence of free speech if he has now changed it?

136. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Sabrina wrote:

Questioning Kos’ business practices is a definite banning offense. I wonder why?

That was THE offence, I think, that got me banned from DailyKos (never got an official explanation, so I’m not sure): questioning Moulitsas’ business practises.

My educated guess is that DailyKos is NOT entirely supported by ad revenue; in fact, it is not even mostly supported by ad revenue, but rather through a sugar daddy.

I hereby nominate Simon Rosenberg as the sugar daddy, or at least Moulitsas’ pimp, who is funneling money into Moulitsas’ pockets through Moulitsas’ position as a “fellow” at the New Politics Institute. I find it quite odd that Moulitsas suddenly got the money to buy his new house at the exact same time he became an NPI fellow. What a happy coincidence, one of many in his life and Jerome Armstrong’s.

By the by, wasn’t Armstrong supposed to post a full mea culpa for the blogosphere once his stock fraud case was settled? Well, it’s settled, and all I hear are the sounds of silence.

Yet more perfidy.

137. Revisionist - 22 August 2007

There are also some pretty neat spots in the Gulf of California along Baja and Sonora that are still pretty low key

138. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

I like Supervixen’s suggestion of a quiet place on the Pacific coast of Mexico. I shall investigate those further and perhaps email for some advice.

139. Shadowthief - 22 August 2007

Hm, according to a tourist website, there are fully-equipped seaside bungalows at Barra de Potosi to be had for $50 USD per day, or $250 for a week. I’d say that’s reasonable!

140. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Good post up at Scott Tribe’s site (a fellow canuck): A depiction of what child soldiers have to go through: Camp Okutta

141. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

poop …here’s the link.

142. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

Hillary’s calling for al Maliki to resign. How about calling for Bush to be impeached, Hillary?

143. Marie - 22 August 2007

Marisa – “sidebar?” more a need for guidance than confidentiality.

144. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Marie

do you want me to email you at the address you list here?

or you can email me at

where.is.the.cat@gmail.com

145. marisacat - 22 August 2007

This was just posted to a week old thread.

Rahter than it be lost, here it is:

Jay Elias |

|
For what it is worth, Hair Club for Men, I am not in any way pretending to be a liberal. I’m quite openly, at Daily Kos and everywhere else, a libertarian.

Aug 22, 1:27 PM — — Still and again: A Thread

Hey. Enjoy.

146. lucid - 22 August 2007

Looks like we have another fan. 🙂

147. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

Revisionist, lol! ‘nearly gunned in Mexico’! Have you considered one of those ‘survival’ courses before going on any more vacations?

Hillary hasn’t shown up at Daily Kos yet, but Peter Dauo has a diary there today, mostly showing her latest poll numbers.

Hillary, Rove and electibility – the real numbers

So far, two commenters have been trollrated into hidden comments. This next year is going to be fun:

give it up, Peter (0+ / 2-)
Trollrated by:lorelynn, funluvn1

I still can’t believe you threw in with this crowd. Nice remark by your candidate on the surge and how it’s “working,” by the way. Bad enough Hillary is the wrong gender for this time and country; now she’s blurring the differences. Say hi to union-buster Penn when you can.

Hillary: the GOP’s Only Hope

by Tuffie on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 12:54:52 PM PDT

************

Unfavorable Hillary (0+ / 3-)
Trollrated by:lorelynn, funluvn1, masslib

If her unfavorables hold up, we can brethe a little easier that she won’t be in the WH. She is a mean spiritied, vindictive, disingenuous person who doesn’t belong in any leadership position, anywhere. Except, maybe the MOON would be a good place for her.

by nancyann on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 01:06:44 PM PDT

148. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

I don’t see how that second comment is worse than DD’s “cuntbitchwhore” comment. That one wasn’t hidden, was it?

149. marisacat - 22 August 2007

Gee. Is there candidate unhappiness in Tinseltown?

SOunds like it.

WHo knows what is coming but aside from her unfavorables (last I heard 49%) I heard Kit Seelye of the NYT a couple weeks ago, polling cam back, 40% of Dem male ‘likely voters’, “would never vote for her”.

And iirc, the numbers for Dem women ‘likely voters’ was in the mid twemties, for the same phrase “would never vote for her”.

I do love how the mantra, the ooze and the drone this year is NOT that we need a White Southern Male… tho of course we have one.

TRI-angulate. And then do it some MORE.

Wht bullshit it all is.

150. Marie - 22 August 2007

lorelynn is a stalking Hillary-bot. Vanishes quickly when presented with a list of the more egregious Hill and Bill supported or signed legislation.

A really undereducated political wannabe.

151. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

Catnip, it isn’t even close to being worse. In fact I think what the commenter meant was that there is still a lot of prejudice against having a woman in power in this country. But no one asked for clarification before disappearing it, so I’m just guessing.

And don’t forget that Kos himself and Pastor Damnation fully supported Luscious Vagina’s mysoginistic attacks on Marisa, Kos even telling him to continue under a new name (thanks to Miss D for her take on his new name).

Lucid, yes I think so. I think most here know he is a Libertarian, btw.

Reminds me, why Booman thought it ‘disturbing’ that UC uses this site and followed a link from here to his site. He should be thanking Marisacat for all the hits she’s sent his way.

Marisacat, the candidate diaries are pretty contentious. But once the nomination is assured, then the thugs will be out in force. And, imo that is when it will be safe for Armando and a few others to return to DK, because despite his apparent rebellion on the war right now has said once the primaries are over, he’ll be on board with the Party.

152. Sabrina Ballerina - 22 August 2007

Catnip, tranlating Rahm’s ‘wobbly war’ statement, I think he means the Dems are all now on board re how well the surge is going and fully coordinating their message with Bush’s – ‘things are going well with the surge’. Is there some difference in Bush’s statement and theirs? Rahm is a warmonger. I’m sure he’s pleased to have both Bush and the Dems express satisfaction with the surge.

153. liberalcatnip - 22 August 2007

My latest: Iraq, Bush, Vietnam & The Cheerleading Democrats.

If you don’t want to read through my pontificating, there’s an interesting news tidbit at the bottom of the post that caught my eye:

Democrats Would Want Australian Troops To Stay In Iraq As Long As Possible

Washington, D.C. (AHN) – Sources close to Sens. Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama have said a Democratic president would ask Australia to maintain its troop presence in Iraq for up to a further three years. A Democratic administration would also look to use Australian assistance in training Iraqi forces and seek its assistance worldwide.

154. marisacat - 22 August 2007

New thread

LINK

155. Hair Club for Men - 22 August 2007

Well the Republicans are rolling their message out before Labor Day. I’m always amazed that the genocide in Cambodia is always trotted out as a reason the US shouldn’t have pulled out of Vietnam. Even the CIA argued that the US bombing of Cambodia opened the door to the Khmer Rouge. Then we get the usual bullshit about boat people and reeducation camps and no mention of what happened in Southeast Asia when right wing governments set the agenda (East Timor and Indonesia).

And the most frustrating thing of all is knowing that even if the Democrats tried to win the argument (which they won’t) they’ve already conceded it when

1.) They voted to continue funding the war this Spring. People had turned against the war but the Democrats relegitimized it and made it bipartisan by funding it after they took Congress.

2.) When Kerry ran as a war hero he blotted out the memory of Vietnam as a war crime.

Time to contact the Swiss embassy and see about that passport.

156. marisacat - 22 August 2007

yes i had to laugh over pt 2, when the so-called lame duck rolled this out this am…

157. frtitzcat - 23 August 2007

Shadowthief–re: all your warm comments from the previousd thread–

thanks for this. Except comment #27 which I almost agreed with until you came down to the “start your own blog” conclusion. That was a big let down.

But I agree that you that you agree with me that Pyrrho is highly squishy. He stands up to people, sure, but he comes at them over under sideways down. And then draws absurdly overwrought conclusions from the process. “Free Speech is Dead on MLW.”

As if. D’uh. Free speech is not dead. Its the free speakers who die, not the speech. And all the while you stand there and wittily philosophize about the death of speech.

I waited for the gong of the clock tolling in the church tower but the only sound I could decipher was my wife screaming in the background, “get off the goddamned internet and get back to the books!”

Damn woman slave driver….

{:o)

But I disagree that he’s incomprehensible. And yes, he is a rare intelligence, and completely, utterly and seriously committed. Thats the best part. His commitment.

Funny thing is, I find that I am almost always in agreement with Pyrrho but I argue with him anyway.

Arguing with Pyrrho is just like arguing with your id, I guess. Freud’s dead but at least we will always have Pyrrho.

There will always be Pyrrho.

MSOC even threw a party for him on his last night in LA. I hope someone grabbed some video of that, or at least random cell phone snapshots…..I wonder if Pyrrho gave a little inspirational talk or anything….or led a convocation for Christ/Buddha/Mohammed/Zoroaster/Confucious/Stallman….

{:o)


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