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Open thread… aren’t they all 11 September 2007

Posted by marisacat in 2008 Election, DC Politics, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter.


Several things came up today that need attention… will try to clear filters and rescue comments as I can…


UPDATE, 1:40 am

Gary Hart:

We are too old to behave as adolescents any longer. That includes particularly our president. America must grow up. We must redeem ourselves in the name of those who lost their lives unnecessarily six years ago. We must reclaim our dignity and our honor from those who have neither

Stop! Enough.  No … too damned much. Worse, he entitled it “J’accuse“. 

Find a body of water with or without tidal action, get in the dinghy –  and shove off.


I was in Miami last night for the Univision-hosted Democratic debate. Listening to their responses on Iraq left no doubt that the candidates have gotten the message that, no matter what Gen. Petraeus says during his testimony, the American people — including the Hispanic community — are done with this war.

“We need to quit refereeing their civil war and bring our troops home as soon as possible,” said Hillary Clinton.

“I believe no political progress [in Iraq] means no funding without a timetable for withdrawal,” said John Edwards.

“I’m calling on Republican congressmen and legislators to overturn the president’s veto of a timetable,” said Barack Obama.

Poor sodden bitch.  Get in the dinghy with Hart.  Better yet, go back to Newt.




1. frtitzcat - 11 September 2007

Please, no more 9/11 dairies.

No more 9/11 comments. Its been six years people. At this point I dont even care whether Cheney called American Airlines and demanded that they crash soem airplanes into buildings.

I am told that AA reluctantly agreed when Ceney ordered the FAA to consider both crashed planes “on time arrivals.”

2. Revisionist - 11 September 2007

Saudi King is reportedly livid with Sharif for his move to go to Pakistan, flouting the deal despite strong requests from the Saudi government.

3. outofwater - 11 September 2007

Yep, the 9/11 conspiracy debate is absurd. It’s established the administration knew there was danger and did nothing at all to protect the country. The fact is that they then exploited the attack to further their deranged imperialistic plans.

The rest are details.

4. supervixen - 11 September 2007

Really interesting to see the not-so-subtle misogyny in the DK complaints about Code Pink:

Am I the only one who finds Code Pink’s tactics (20+ / 0-)
Recommended by:Frank, dburbach, BigOkie, phenry, countrycat, Aquarius40, sockpuppet, SadTexan, churchylafemme, arielle, terrypinder, GTPinNJ, Ice Blue, Ekaterin, soyinkafan, Cartoon Peril, Foodle, recusancy, Marinesquire, tiredntexas

self-defeating? Their hot pink costumes and screeching make them look like escapees from an insane asylum.

by John Campanelli on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 10:58:12 AM PDT

Hmm, yeah, John – Women yelling and wearing pink = insane.

Must be a fascinating planet you live on.

code pink is counter-productive (18+ / 0-)
Recommended by:TaraIst, Glic, Catte Nappe, RyoCokey, bwintx, Elwood Dowd, 3goldens, Treg, ivorybill, SheriffBart, llbear, PoliOperative, donnamarie, lurks a lot, DWG, Oreo, MissyH, FreeFallin

in situations like this. it accomplishes exactly the opposite of what they want. Better is a silent protest in the camera frame

by guyermo on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 10:57:11 AM PDT

Indeed – much better for the women to shut up and sit there in silence. Everyone will pay more attention that way. Well, actually, nobody will pay attention to them at all, but at least they won’t be offending our sensibilities with their unfeminine outbursts.

“Stifle, Edith!”

And this:

While I generally support Code Pink’s … (9+ / 0-)
Recommended by:trillian, Dems2004, Aquarius40, sockpuppet, Ice Blue, soyinkafan, Coherent Viewpoint, Foodle, Marinesquire

…in-your-face approach, they have a lot to learn about timing and venues. And, given how long they’ve been around, I don’t expect they are going to learn either.

by Meteor Blades on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 11:10:39 AM PDT

And you think YOU have something to teach them? You, the Beard? The defanged “leftist” that the DK squad keeps around as window dressing? (if you ever had any fangs to begin with, which I doubt.)

Too much passion (5+ / 0-)
Recommended by:sockpuppet, soyinkafan, Coherent Viewpoint, adrianrf, Marinesquire

Not enough cold hard rage born discipline.

by RElland on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 11:16:40 AM PDT

Yes, they’re “too emotional”. What they need is to be MEN, and then their cold hard rage will be expressed in a more masculine, and therefore more appropriate, fashion.

And this is a hoot:

well, people have never had the right (17+ / 0-)
Recommended by:TaraIst, OLinda, bustacap, leevank, Catte Nappe, Mikecan1978, guyermo, maybeeso in michigan, citizenx, ivorybill, SheriffBart, Marcus Tullius, greenearth, jnhobbs, MissyH, NogodsnomastersMary, FreeFallin

to protest in the capitol building or congressional proceedings as far as I’m aware.

Part of it is because they could never get anything done if they just let people do whatever.

by FleetAdmiralJ on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 11:00:05 AM PDT

Fascism makes everyone more efficient. Mussolini had his good points – he made the trains run on time!

They are such conservatives over there.

As I have often said – I hope none of them ever gets into a position of real power in this country.

5. supervixen - 11 September 2007

hey, I forgot to put a couple of those quotes in blockquote. Sorry.

6. lucid - 11 September 2007

no worries SV, we all need to do whatever we can today to sneak past the WP filters… 😉

7. lucid - 11 September 2007

Just stumbled over to Dkos for the first time in a while… 50% of the recent diary list is something about 9-11… & wow, DemfromCT actually wrote about something other than ‘how I learned to love the bird flu’…

8. supervixen - 11 September 2007

Aaaargh. A truly crappy poem about the WTC.

I prefer this one:

Flying,/b> (Vernon Reid)

I jumped out the window to get to the parking lot
I’m writing this little song on my way down
Never in my life have I felt a heat so hot
I had to get out

Such a lovely day to go flying
The sky’s so clear, the sun is shining
Fate has given me wings
Such a terrible funny thing

I was gathering up my nerve to ask out Carmen
She glanced out the window
Oh my God
The room It went away, now we’re holding hands
Just not the way I planned

Such a lovely day to go flying
The sky’s so clear, the sun is shining
Fate has given me wings
Such a terrible funny thing
Funny thing

YouTube video: Living Colour – Flying

9. supervixen - 11 September 2007

Gary Hart? he’s still around? What a laugh.

I appear to be spammalamadingdonged.

10. frtitzcat - 11 September 2007

Stu Piddy is on fire over at My Lost Whores, especially in the Tiny Hands front page thread, where he goes on a rampage basically mimicking my comment #1 above but salting it with praise of Bin Laiden and derision for all of America.

According to Stu, the American people were more enthralled by the collapse of th ebuildings than by the deaths of th epeople….as usual, he’s write on target.

Why isnt Stu over at PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT? We have a “stupiddy” but thats a fake right? No one can fake the real Stu Piddy, the dark prince of the blogosphere.

11. supervixen - 11 September 2007

Yeah, when I think about 9/11, the image of a blue bimbo with glitter on her lips comes to mind.

These people are astonishing.

I am an Empath.

Well, no, dear- what you are is clueless and tacky.

12. cad - 11 September 2007

“Please, no more 9/11 dairies.

No more 9/11 comments. Its been six years people. At this point I dont even care whether Cheney called American Airlines and demanded that they crash soem airplanes into buildings.'”

that’s as valid as when conservatives tell katrina victims to get over it. did you know anybody in new york? it’s not over for them.

to ignore 9/11 and it’s sobering lessons is exactly what’s wrong with the country. and we still haven’t learned anything. time to shop!

13. ms_xeno - 11 September 2007

these mountains ain’t high
but they’re straight up and down
it’s many dark miles
to the nearest small town
where the neon is glowing
red white and blue
good friends are waiting
to buy a cold one for you
this river ain’t wide
but she’s rocky straight down
and this road wraps around her
like a rough wedding gown
the bridegroom is coming
too hard and too fast
her kiss is a cold one
it will be his last

white crosses on the highway
red roses in the ditch
if promises were nickels
this whole valley’d be rich
but the girls are still waiting
for the boys to come home
even when they’re together
they’re always alone

white crosses on the highway
brown bottles in the ditch
if good intentions were nickels
this whole valley’d be rich
but the girls are still waiting
for the boys to come home
but after that last call
she’ll always be

Courtesy The Raventones

Words just seem to fail me more and more these days.

14. ms_xeno - 11 September 2007

When I was on the coast a couple of weeks back, I was struck by the dearth of flags and ribbon decals– compared to a few years ago. I stopped in a gift shop and the owner had a decal. Her son is stationed just outside the Green Zone, as it turned out.

I don’t know if I’d propose shopping as therapy, but it seems as reasonable a response some days as the stuff I see people tearing each up over on the net. Guess I’m just soured into silence for now.

15. Sabrina Ballerina - 11 September 2007

I know what you mean, ms x. What is there to say that hasn’t been said already? More energy has gone into meta discussions on the ‘blahgs’ than any other single issue. It’s like watching, I know it’s been said before, but the Jerry Springer Show. Not even quality entertainment, or especially interesting people. But a meta thread will get over 1000 comments on DK while a good diary about a serious issue is lucky to get any, unless it promises to devolve into some kind of controversy.

As for 9/11, the time is long past where any kind of the real questions regarding the official story, might have been addressed. What we do know is that it provided the excuse to go rampaging around the globe with the support of a majority of the American people.

As for the criticisms of Code Pink on DK, I’m trying to think of some major event in history that successfully overcame oppression and/or a corrupt government, by being ‘nice’ and I just can’t think of one!

16. wilfred - 11 September 2007

** Viewing Note**

Tonight on the PBS show POV, they are showing the documentary “The Camden 28”. I saw it recently when it played here in NYC and it is definitely worth checking out. It’s about a group of concerned citizens in NJ who attempted to destroy draft records to keep blacks and other low income kids out of the Vietnam war and how they were set up by the FBI.

17. lucid - 11 September 2007

I’m trying to think of some major event in history that successfully overcame oppression and/or a corrupt government, by being ‘nice’ and I just can’t think of one!

Well, Gandhi was fond of making salt & spinning his own clothes… and was always quite polite. 😉

Then again, while immensely important, there were many other factors contributing to the British relinquishing control of India.

And, I’m definitely with SV on this one – vocal protest is desperately needed now.

18. lucid - 11 September 2007

Thanks for the heads up Wilfred. Will check it out.

19. mattes - 11 September 2007

God’s Jewish Warriors — CNN’s Abomination

CNN’s “God’s Warriors,” hosted by Christiane Amanpour, is a three-part series intended to examine the growing role of religious fundamentalism in today’s world. Unfortunately, the first program in the series, “God’s Jewish Warriors,” is one of the most grossly distorted programs to appear on mainstream American television in many years. It is false in its basic premise, established in the opening scene in which Jewish (and Christian) religious fervency is equated with that of Muslims heard endorsing “martyrdom,” or suicide-killing. There is, of course, no counterpart among Jews and Christians to the violent jihadist Muslim campaigns underway across the globe, either in numbers of perpetrators engaged or in the magnitude of death and destruction wrought.

While in reality Jewish “terrorism” is virtually non-existent, the program magnifies at length the few instances of violence or attempted violence by religiously-motivated Jewish individuals – including having to go all the way back to 1980, for example, to explore a bombing campaign against West Bank Arab mayors by a small group of Israeli Jews. In dredging up such an old incident Amanpour unintentionally undermines her own thesis.

And, of course, on the exceedingly rare occasions when Israeli Jews commit terrorist acts, the Israeli public and leadership condemns the act and the perpetrators.

CAMERA is an uproar over the fact that Amanpour outed the New York Jewish money people responsible for pouring money into the settlements.

Hope you don’t miss this three-part series, outs AIPAC’s control, too:

20. JJB - 11 September 2007


People like the one you quote should have engraved on their skulls the following statement: “Israel was created by terrorists and two of the 20th century’s most notorious terrorists served for many years as Israel’s head of government.”

21. frtitzcat - 11 September 2007


Know, I no knowbody in New York except my daughter.

9/11 was an aberration. Pearl Harbor happened once. 9/11 happened once. A lot of people died in both places. People who were guarding der homeland were asleep at the switch both times.

Something similar will happen again somewhere, or maybe another big hurricane will destroy a major city.

Who nose?

Big shaker could put an end to the poopcorn stand any second now.

A lot of people die tragically every day in lots of places for many different reasons.

Life is essentially tragic, or comic, depending upon your choice of herb….but shopping sucks, regardless.

Unless you are in Caiforniadise shopping for herb, that is.

22. dkosser - 11 September 2007


every country was created by terrorists,eh?

you live in the USA? yer a beneficiary of terrorists. \\ or do you think all yer prosperity of whatever level, but prolly high compared to most of the world, came thru niceness?

yer land, if ya own any, was stolen at some point, yer a recipient of stolen land. yer an occupier….look in the mirror…say to yourself,”shit I’m a hypocritical occupier….and please don’t tell me “it happened long ago, or my family came here after”, or any other excuse, yer livin’ on stolen land period!

to the winner goes the booty, ain’t it so AMERICAN!

you need to get this engraved on your skull: America was created by terrorists and two of the 18th century’s most notorious terrorists served for many years as America’s head of government.”

23. ms_xeno - 11 September 2007


…More energy has gone into meta discussions on the ‘blahgs’ than any other single issue…

Yeah, that’s part of my problem. But there’s more, if I could just get a handle on explaining it better.

Essentially, I think that much of the fighting is due to people feeling angry and helpless about the attrocities that our country is perpetrating on a daily basis. Every day we have it drilled into our skulls that we are on a short leash that is getting shorter every day. I think even a lot of people who express endless optimism at how the next DP superduperultramajority will magically arise to fix everything wrong know better– at some level. But they can’t endure the thoughts of being angry at the “leadership,” so they need another target. At some level it seems to be happening everywhere. I heard this morning that there were two 911 conspiracy groups fighting over who got to lead a memorial march– and what for ? Both groups know that somebody somewhere lied to them big time. For just one damn day, shouldn’t that be enough ?


24. lucid - 11 September 2007

every country was created by terrorists,eh?

Which is why nationalism is one of the greatest threats humanity, along with ‘religion’ and ‘racism’.

Europeans aren’t ‘more equal than others’. The Europeans who took this land by force were wrong. The Europeans who took Palestinian land by force were wrong… as were all colonizers, of all religion or race before them.

25. marisacat - 11 September 2007

LOL News traveled at the same speed as the nuclear missiles on the cross country trip…


US says Israel jets struck Syria

Israeli jets carried out an air strike in Syria last week, a US defence official has said.
The official, who spoke anonymously, said he did not know the target of the alleged strike on Thursday.

But he said he believed it was a warning to Syria not to re-arm Hezbollah in Lebanon, the AFP news agency reported.

Damascus said it fired on Israeli jets after they entered northern Syria. Israel has not commented on the claims.

Rising tensions

“The Israelis are trying to tell the Syrians: ‘Don’t support a resurgence of Hezbollah in Lebanon,'” the US official said.

26. JJB - 11 September 2007


Just remember, you are a living being on this planet, and the drugs will wear off very soon.


27. Revisionist - 11 September 2007

If those planes had struck toronto a few 100 miles away. America would have been over it in time for the week-end

28. mattes - 11 September 2007

#22…Hi Keith.

29. Marie - 11 September 2007

ms-xeno #23 – it’s a reaction formation and instant gratification to powerlessness. Better a “big fish” in a small pond even if the powerful still own the pond than to unite all the little fish and challenge the powerful. That takes to long, requires too much hard work and may not succeed. This is so much like the days of the Vietnam War. Which contrary to the myth, the left didn’t bring to an end. Although it was instrumental in ending the draft which insured that future US imperialist wars would be fought by mercenaries.

30. marisacat - 11 September 2007

Well i see a ton of bullshit on the Blahgs, blogs as well.

As I jsut wrote to wilfred about the Camden 28 POV production airing tonight, it is a flash of the old PBS (no weeping on my part, long gone, KQED the SF PBS affiliate, ws fully taken over by corporate interests by ’70, that is if one was paying attention). Camden 28 has been heavily promoted in this market (I suppose some of us might still be sane) and running it on 9/11 IS a flash of the old PBS, as in:

“Step away from your government”

which is a long way for me to say, the division in the blahgs/blogs, as I see it, is who supports the status quo, the government, the parties and who does not.

And who makes money of their “choice”.

Sorry to bore anyone, but along with serious posts (like yesterday’s) Blahgs – and blogs – remain an issue here.

And despite all the skin rip and whining from predictable quarters, from DD to MLW, about why I write what I write, it is political with me..

Which is What I have said for years. As one after the other worked to dissuade me from what I look at.

Now, I am offline for a while, trying to straighten out a mess with online banking.

31. Sabrina Ballerina - 11 September 2007

Ms x, I suppose it is a reaction to powerlessness, I just wonder how much of it was orchestrated, or at least encouraged. It does help to divide people. And dividing people is never helpful to the people.

Well, Gandhi was fond of making salt & spinning his own clothes… and was always quite polite. Lucid

Lol, true, just like some people on DK were polite when they stated their opinions. Yet, ended up thrown off the island.

I doubt the Brits saw Ghandi as polite. How ungrateful of him not to apprectiate the benfits of Colonialism. Had he kept his silly thoughts to himself, they wouldn’t have had to throw him in jail, or beat up his supporters.

His actions were pretty radical, actually, they had to be to attract the amount of support he got, and if DK had existed back then, guaranteed the same people criticizing Cindy Sheehan, banning David Swanson etc. would have had the same reaction to Ghandi. He upset the status quo without violence on his part. That seems to be what troubles those Kossacks. Disturbing the order of things, even if the order is not to their benefit.

32. ms_xeno - 11 September 2007


…than to unite all the little fish and challenge the powerful…

What price unity, if you’ll excuse the cliche’.

Not being combative, I’m just really curious as to what folks regard as their breaking point;the point beyond which they can’t keep numb and just go along to get along anymore.

All I can tell you personally is that for me the slavish devotion to the DP, to propping it up and pouring so much into it– that is the breaking point for me. And I’ve paid the (granted) metaphoric price of being told repeatedly that failure is my fault because I couldn’t march in “unity” with the people who are supposedly my friends.

With apologies to Mcat for any “skin rip.” I am always curious to know how people break these things down, in their own minds.

I am sad personally that all reasonable outlets to change seem to be muzzled and carted away the instant they surface, which leaves those of us who can’t advocate violent solutions nothing to do but retreat quietly and take what solace we can in the material world, knowing that we might as well get the most we can from it while we can. Nothing comes after, at least to this jew-atheist. So why not ?

Sometimes I think the therapy-through-shopping crowd has it exactly right. Just as the committed non-voters have it exactly right.

33. frtitzcat - 11 September 2007

Marisa- Very apropos–going offline to straighten out an online mess.

This isnt politics–its infotainment. It exists only because pop music, movies and TV suck.

Its an interactive time waster. The interactive part is good for the brain neurons, but real change is not in the wind.

Not even close.

34. ms_xeno - 11 September 2007

SB, it’s indeed always easier to love the troublemakers when they’re dead and can’t cause any more trouble. 😉

Just look at the glossy mainstream version of MLK, so unlike the person he actually was. The mainstream version can be loved by anyone and tailored to fit any agenda, or no agenda at all. The real person (flaws and all ?) not so much…

35. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

22. dkosser – 11 September 2007

Nice Keith. Bashing America on September 11th. Bet you don’t even own a flag.

36. mattes - 11 September 2007

Has a transcript of bin ladin come out yet?

Found the old one….and worth reading:

I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn’t forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn’t include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn’t respond.

In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.
And even more dangerous and bitter for America is that the mujahidin recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, which is evidence of the success of the bleed-until-bankruptcy plan – with Allah’s permission.

….as the fed pours newly printed money to our failing economy.

37. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

Yep, the 9/11 conspiracy debate is absurd.

There are two ways you can react to the proliferation of conspiracy theories:

1.) Look at them in a historical context and realize that conspiracy theories can only flourish when a government acts in a secretive way. That’s precisely WHY there are a lot of conspiracy theories that come out of the Middle East. The Middle East has a lot of dictatorships and not much of a free press. You can say “oh those conspiracy theorists are all nutcases or you can say “what about the current political climate is allowing conspiracy theories to flourish”?

2.) Repond with repetative sloganeering like “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” designed to shut down any real discussion.

38. Marie - 11 September 2007

ms_xeno – wasn’t implying uniting behind the DP. That’s just a small clique of insiders running the country along with their good friends across the aisle. All the little fishes are the outsiders, the natives that have gotten restless but don’t know what to do. So, they look around and find other little fishes who tell them their job is to hang in their with the DP. That gives the minders among the little fishes stature and appeases the little fishes. It’s how all the poor white sharecroppers we’re controlled. and how they in turn kept the poor blacks in their place.

39. dkosser - 11 September 2007

HC 35


speaking of the flag, the one in front of my building is at half mast….

is that de rigeur around the country today?

40. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

That’s just a small clique of insiders running the country along with their good friends across the aisle.

I think it’s a bit more complex.

The iron clad anti-democratic consensus is really the strongest when it concerns foreign policy.

When it comes to social security or abortion or immigration there is a bit of room for debate and Congress does respond to popular pressure.

If Markos and Atrios and the rest of the gang said something like “look we’re away that the elites don’t want input from the people on foreign policy but we do have some leeway about domestic issues” I’d have more respect for them.

But neither is stupid enough to think the primary challenges will have any effect on Iraq at all. So they’re dishonest about it.

41. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

is that de rigeur around the country today?

No. Believe it or not what’s required is to take a flag, go down to the local bikers club and burn it. You also need a Che shirt.

It sounds odd but you have to do it or you’ll get deported.

42. marisacat - 11 September 2007

The iron clad anti-democratic consensus is really the strongest when it concerns foreign policy.

Right, talk about lock down to wars forever.

This is what passes for debate in thsi country (from The Note today)

Hagel’s departure makes a bad electoral map worse for Republicans, as former senator Bob Kerrey, D-Neb., eyes a return to politics. But the New York Sun’s Josh Gerstein sees a fight looming with liberals if Kerrey does seek to come back to the Senate. “If Nebraskans replace Mr. Hagel with Mr. Kerrey, they will be trading a Republican who has called the war ‘hopeless’ and ‘an absolute replay of Vietnam’ for a Democrat who has insisted that the invasion was justified and that an abrupt withdrawal would hand an unacceptable win to Al Qaeda,” Gerstein writes.

Right, a fucking loon as a farm state Dem who signed PNAC papers for years, was probably fragged in Vietnam for being, no news, a fucking lunatic vs a R the Dems love to fake love with. Owns half of his local black box game and is a pro lifer.

So he got a little queasy on one war. Hardly matters.

That is what passes for debate.


As for sagging titz @ 33

tried to resolve it on the phone. Never got thru, will try again during the commute time. Trying to avoid having to go into the bank itself.

Right, one only resolves online online. Wrong.

Can you try some bait routine that is not rotted out and hollow?

43. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

Isn’t it Hagel who owns part of the voting machine company?

I didn’t know Kerrey did too.

44. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

Tweety’s pissed that Petreus wouldn’t declare that the war in Iraq is making Americans safer. He’s also calling the troop withdrawl promise bullshit.

Hmm. Better get Tom Delay to break out those photos of Tweety doing whatever they have photos of him doing.

45. Shadowthief - 11 September 2007

I agree 100% with Woody Allen’s statement about 9/11 (and I’m pretty sure Mr. Allen knows LOADS of people in NYC):

As a filmmaker, I’m not interested in 9/11 […] it’s too small, history overwhelms it. The history of the world is like: He kills me, I kill him, only with different cosmetics and different castings. So in 2001, some fanatics killed some Americans, and now some Americans are killing some Iraqis. And in my childhood, some Nazis killed Jews. And now, some Jewish people and some Palestinians are killing each other. Political questions, if you go back thousands of years, are ephemeral, not important. History is the same thing over and over again.

* Interview in Der Spiegel, 2005-06-20 (as quoted by the New York Post

46. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

So in 2001, some fanatics killed some Americans, and now some Americans are killing some Iraqis.

He says this in such a matter of fact blase way it’s telling.

EVERYBODY in the United States knows that the invasion of Iraq was about finding some Arabs to beat up on to get even for 9/11. EVERYBODY knows this and EVERYBODY knew it before the invasion started.

People are just sick of it now. They’ve had their pound of flesh and now the Iraq war’s just a pet you got your kids for Christmas that they got sick of.

47. Marie - 11 September 2007

HC #40 When it comes to social security or abortion or immigration there is a bit of room for debate and Congress does respond to popular pressure.

Not much room. DEMs know that social security is the only thing that’s kept them in the game for the past thirty years. They are scared to death of taking any clear and unequivocal stand on the other two. They are really clueless about framing the debate on immigration. And with anti-abortionists like Reid and Casey in the Senate, they will remain weak on supporting the rights of women to have access to the full range of reproductive healthcare. And Hillary will only support abortion if it’s “rare, and I do mean rare” whatever that means.

48. supervixen - 11 September 2007

ST, I found the original text of the Woody Allen interview and it’s very interesting. I don’t know how the Post excerpted the interview, but read in context he isn’t dismissing 9/11, merely explaining why he’s not interested in making a film about it. His remarks on tragedy are appropriate for the day:

Mr. Allen, your film [Melinda and Melinda] tells the same story twice, first as a tragedy and then as a comedy. Both parts are really funny. Do you think then that humor is the only way of reflecting reality?

Allen: Actually I don’t. I think that the tendency for most people is to fall back on a comic interpretation of things — because things are so sad, so terrible. If you didn’t laugh you’d kill yourself. But the truth of the matter is that existence in general is very very tragic, very very sad, very brutal and very unhappy. Every now and then, something happens that’s funny. And that’s refreshing. But then you move back into the real world, which is not funny. You only have to pick up the newspaper in the morning and read about the real world and you see that it’s rotten, just bad.

SPIEGEL: It seems that the ancient Greeks were able to learn from the tragedies played on stage. You hinted at classical Greek theatre in “Mighty Aphrodite”. But what about us? Does suffering make us better human beings?

Allen: There is nothing really redeeming about tragedy. Tragedy is tragic, and it’s so painful that people try to twist it and say “it’s terribly hard, but look we’ve achieved something, we’ve learned something.” This is a weak attempt to find some kind of meaning in tragedy. But there is no meaning. There is no up-side. And suffering does not redeem anything; there is no positive message to learn from it. I have thought for a while that it would make a good story to look at two filmmakers, one who makes tragic films and one who makes comedies, to see who helps people more. The first argues that you come to his tragedy and he gives it to you so that you confront reality and you don’t escape. And because you confront life, you learn to understand other people and you are more generous to them. The comic makes the movie and says “The world is terrible.” So you walk into the cinema, sit there for two hours, hear a nice bit of music, have a laugh. It’s like drinking a cold glass of water on a hot day. The argument can always be made that the comic filmmaker is doing the better service. In the end he is helping you more, you’re okay for a little while longer.

SPIEGEL: So is this one of the reasons why we don’t see any hint of what happened on September 11 in your recent films? Would your fans be scared?

Allen: No, it’s because I don’t find political subjects or topical world events profound enough to get interested in them myself as an artist. As a filmmaker, I’m not interested in 9/11. Because, if you look at the big picture, the long view of things, it’s too small, history overwhelms it. The history of the world is like: he kills me, I kill him. Only with different cosmetics and different castings: so in 2001 some fanatics killed some Americans, and now some Americans are killing some Iraqis. And in my childhood, some Nazis killed Jews. And now, some Jewish people and some Palestinians are killing each other. Political questions, if you go back thousands of years, are ephemeral, not important. History is the same thing over and over again.

SPIEGEL: So maybe that’s why we in Europe see you as a kind of classic filmmaker, the Shakespeare of cinema. Is “Melinda and Melinda” like a chemical experiment, in which you put people in different situations to see the reaction you get?

Allen: Yes. I’m probably more interested in eternal human feelings and conflicts. If I make a good film, it will always be good. The same feelings and problems will persist 5000 years from now. Like the Greek tragedies which still touch us today, which still work.

One of the aspects I admire of Allen’s films is that he never gets bogged down in the politics of the day. He’s focused on character, on human interactions. In the end, our humanity is all we have that’s real and lasting.

49. marisacat - 11 September 2007

43 HC

sorry if that was not clear.

Kerrey, fucking lunatic

Hagel, owns 50% of his local black box routine an dis a pro lifer.

Tho Kerrey is a sell out/believer for anything R -or once pushed by Moynihan – that comes around. From SS to any other domestic issue.

50. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

He’s focused on character, on human interactions. In the end, our humanity is all we have that’s real and lasting.

That’s only to cover his communist agenda. He was recruited.

51. Shadowthief - 11 September 2007

Actually, Allen’s best statement on what’s important is from “Sleeper”:

Miles: You know, science is an intellectual dead end. It’s a lot of guys in tweed suits cutting up frogs on foundation grants.

Luna: And you also don’t believe that the political systems work.
And you don’t believe in God, huh?

Miles: Right.

Luna: So then, what do you believe in?

Miles: Sex and death. Two things that come once in my lifetime. But at least after death you’re not nauseous.

Doris: You have no values. With you its all nihilism, cynicism, sarcasm, and orgasm.

Harry Block: Hey, in France I could run for office with that slogan, and win!

—“Deconstructing Harry”

52. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

Comrades the Politburo has just announced a troop cut in our glorious peoples war in Iraq.


Comrades we are winning, bringing socialism and dialectical materiailism to the Iraqis.

Oh screw it. I don’t want to live under Communism anymore. I want the Berlin Wall to come down, the KGB to convert themselves into the mob, our life expectency to go down 10 years and to have another dictator by 1999.

And maybe my sister can farm herself out to get married to some geek in Seattle who can’t get laid, then divorce him and get his money.

53. wozzle - 11 September 2007

ST 45 – I didn’t know Woody Allen knew any folks from NYC. I thought he was from Itgetsfuckingcolduphere, MN. Or was that some other Jewish cultural icon whose best days were thirty or forty years ago?

Having a less than stellar day; I suspect I require something liquid, amber, about 12 years old and from Scotland. Sometimes the hypocrisy really gets to me…

54. marisacat - 11 September 2007

And now, some Jewish people and some Palestinians are killing each other. W Allen

gah. Sorry WA not the way the numbers actually crunch.

I’ve loved his movies, but to be frank I think he mostly knows people in Miami and Venice. Italy.

Too often a tiresome narcissist in RL.

Not that that matters for his art. Just for his dismissal, as I see it. Just my opinion.

55. supervixen - 11 September 2007

Marisa, believe me, even making the Jewish-Palestinian equation opens him up to being called Hitlerian in NYC circles. Woody Allen has a lot of guts to say that.

Too often a tiresome narcissist in RL.

He certainly is when he appears in his movies, but I’ve heard from people who know him in RL that he’s very different from his movie character.

56. supervixen - 11 September 2007


I didn’t know Woody Allen knew any folks from NYC. I thought he was from Itgetsfuckingcolduphere, MN.

Well, the Coen Brothers are.

Having a less than stellar day; I suspect I require something liquid, amber, about 12 years old and from Scotland.

Hey, this weekend I brought a bottle of Aberlour to a friend who was having a big boating party. She, a European, loves single-malt scotch but her husband, who is Scottish/American, doesn’t. Go figure.

57. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

Well half of Woody Allens movies are about therapy.

I wonder what he makes of the American Psychological (Torturers) Association participating in “enhanced interrogations”.

Would sure make for a good paranoid thread in a Woody Allen movie.

Does my shrink moonlight at Gitmo?

58. lucid - 11 September 2007

Sleeper – indeed his best film & honestly the only one I can sit through now with the exception of ‘Sweet & Lowdown’ [though I throw up a little in my mouth every time I see Sean Penn trying to ghost on the guitar – one would think he would have at least sat down with a consultant to work it out so that he actually looked like he was playing the guitar…] Well, maybe some of his really early stuff, like Bananas, but post Annie Hall… I dunno.

59. marisacat - 11 September 2007

Woody Allen has a lot of guts to say that. SV

Well i am aware of the prohibitions. One reason I follow the finkelstein issues. chomsky as well. How dare they… And Dershowitz and Stein on the othr end of the stick.

I am just not open to the “suffering” of celebrities. And everytime I hear the oft stated lament that MEers/Arabs/etc need to stand up more against the “extremists” (ie, speak out) to be frank I think of the very safe American Jews. And much much silence. To say nothing of outright support.

I choked over that fuck Lantos yesterday. And sadely we (san Francisco) are well trod upon, on the Elie Wiesel route ($$$) here.

Those games are thin, but still being played out.

60. lucid - 11 September 2007

Wozzle – I just got me a magnum of Chianti which, post short nap & dinner, I will sip for the rest of the evening. Cheers.

61. dkosser - 11 September 2007

55 supervixen

paint with a broad brush much?

are you from NYC? have you everlived in NYC? or is this something you’ve just sort of heard running thru the canyons of your mind based on innuendo .exagerration and stereotyping?

62. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

Thanks for the Living Colour vid, SV. I wanted to say something, but I was at a loss. Sometimes it’s easier to say it with someone else’s song.

63. wilfred - 11 September 2007

Hmmm. Looks interesting that Vitter now has a major eruption, Larry Flynt has found a hooker who is talking, alot.

64. Marie - 11 September 2007

#63 wilfred – without pictures, a “blue dress” or an arrest, Vitter can weather the storm. The GOP has learned that absent verifiable proof, denials work. Worked for Craig for a long time.

65. ms_xeno - 11 September 2007

Mcat, don’t underestimate the “Family Quarrel” principle. I was in on arguments over Israel most of my life, until I left the family/fold years ago. It’s a hallmark of numerous subcultures that they prefer to have these dialogues only within the group. And they can be pretty fierce, but nobody wants to look bad in front of the outsiders so if any happen along, you clam up. It’s a tough to unlearn.

66. ms_xeno - 11 September 2007

Oh, and Scruggs had a really good LJ post last year on the psycology of American Jews when Israel shows up with the hat. I was never able to persuade him to make it public;He thought it was too personal. Which was too bad, because he boiled it down just perfectly.

67. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

McClatchy puts the rest of the major birdcage liners to shame:

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration’s top two officials in Iraq answered questions from Congress for more than six hours on Monday, but their testimony may have been as important for what they didn’t say as for what they did.

A chart displayed by Army Gen. David Petraeus that purported to show the decline in sectarian violence in Baghdad between December and August made no effort to show that the ethnic character of many of the neighborhoods had changed in that same period from majority Sunni Muslim or mixed to majority Shiite Muslim.

Neither Petraeus nor U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker talked about the fact that since the troop surge began the pace by which Iraqis were abandoning their homes in search of safety had increased. They didn’t mention that 86 percent of Iraqis who’ve fled their homes said they’d been targeted because of their sect, according to the International Organization for Migration.

While Petraeus stressed that civilian casualties were down over the last five weeks, he drew no connection between that statement and a chart he displayed that showed that the number of attacks rose during at least one of those weeks.

Petraeus also didn’t highlight the fact that his charts showed that “ethno-sectarian” deaths in August, down from July, were still higher than in June, and he didn’t explain why the greatest drop in such deaths, which peaked in December, occurred between January and February, before the surge began.

And while both officials said that the Iraqi security forces were improving, neither talked about how those forces had been infiltrated by militias, though Petraeus acknowledged that during 2006 some Iraqi security forces had participated in the ethnic violence.

68. lucid - 11 September 2007

Keith – SV is from NY. And no, from my 13 year experience here, I would say she’s not painting with an overly broad brush.

69. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

just ignore the moron. if I want to read the ravings of a zionist loon, there are any number of magazines and a whole tv network where I can read or hear AIPAC boilerplate. Hell, I’m sure Dershowitz is overdue for another hissy on HuffPo …

70. ms_xeno - 11 September 2007

[pout] I wanted to be the in-house Zionist. You guys are no fun.

But check out that Raventones link I posted above. I think they’re pretty good. Yes, they’re on YouTube. I’m just too rushed to look up a good link for it. :/

71. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007
72. lucid - 11 September 2007

Sorry MitM, sometimes I channel the patented MSOC gluttonous masochism… 🙂

73. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

That Raventones is pretty cool. Thanks.

74. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

well, it’s hard to not respond if you usually enjoy the company of rational, open-minded people who aren’t blinded by bigoted, bloodthirsty worldviews in the real world … it’s hard to remember that both the internets are full of monomaniacal wackjobs who live to highjack conversation and make intellectual interaction impossible.

75. wilfred - 11 September 2007

#64 Evidently the hooker passed a lie detector test. Who knows but Tweety had a segment about it and they thought it was going to force the ethics committee to act on it, but of course they’ll try to weasle.

76. supervixen - 11 September 2007

61, dkosser: yes, I’m from NYC, I grew up there in fact, on 46th St between 5th and 6th (most people I meet who say they’re from New York City are in fact from someplace like Long Island or Westchester County) and lived there until I got married at age 28.

I spent my childhood roaming around streets where Lubavitchers and IRA fundraisers competed for street space with the Puerto Rican three-card-monte dealers and the Roma gypsy who billed herself as a “reader and advisor”.

When I got married, I moved out to the far reaches of Brooklyn to an Italian/Jewish neighborhood. Our area had the only kosher pizzeria I’ve ever encountered – Samson’s.

So where are you from, dollink?

77. supervixen - 11 September 2007

58 – lucid, have you seen Crimes and Misdemeanors – a really beautiful ensemble piece.

I also love Alice, which is one of his underrated gems.

Personally I’ve always disliked Manhattan, which everyone else seems to worship as a masterpiece.

59 – MCat, I never had the impression that Woody Allen played the usual “I’m so happy/proud to be a Jew” games. Unlike Spielberg.

78. wilfred - 11 September 2007

I think the only WA movie i didn’t like was September. My favorite is Interiors but I’m a total sucker for Sleeper, Bananas, Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex, Love and Death and many many others. Even the least of his films are better than the average film (from this country anyway).

79. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

Don’t ask a barber

Jim Hightower’s most memorable line among many great observations at Bob Fest was, “Don’t ask a barber if you need a haircut.” This wise advice in preparation for the testimony of our new “Commander-in-chief” David Petraeus and his “Tonto” Ryan Crocker. Will he ask for more? Will a barber say, “No, our hair looks just right?” C’mon.

Bob McChesney, founder of Free Press, spoke at the Bob Fest kickoff. He discussed the corporate media and the spin it gives to every story. Well, if Professor McChesney needed a case study the Bolero-like buildup to the non-Petraeus-Petraeus report is a classic. (He briefed “my chain of command but not the White House or the Pentagon.” Yah, sure Ole. Me thinks you protesteth too much.)

This was a general on the mountain coming down to tell us war is good, violence is peace, death and destruction are signs of progress, and bad is good. More money, fresh troops, more time, and the General promised two things: 1.)We might make progress; 2.)This takes the heat off the Republicans running for president. Thank you chief, thank you.

What a startling performance. Not since “Mission Accomplished” and “Bring ’em on!” have we heard such misleading nonsense. And Tonto looked like he sat on a whoopee cushion throughout. (One could almost hear his inner thought: “Remember what mom said. ‘sit up very straight and you will look smart.'”)

80. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007
81. Intermittent Bystander - 11 September 2007

Gotta put in a vote for Deconstructing Harry and Everyone Says I Love You, the musical. If you ain’t seen it, it’s a blast. (Dance sequences alone are worth it.)

wilfred – AP story on Vitter and Ellis here.

82. lucid - 11 September 2007

SV – No I haven’t. I’ll check it out. I don’t mean to get down on Woody. He is a good filmaker. I think part of it is that I’ve seen so many of them so many times that I tend to switch the channel if they come on now. Of course, they almost never show Sleeper on TV, so maybe it’s just that I’m not sick of it yet…

46th b/t 5th and 6th… diamond district – know it well [my main client is in the jewelry biz]. Let me guess the Brooklyn neighborhood – Bay Ridge?

83. Revisionist - 11 September 2007

people are pushing the paranoia http://rense.com/general78/isrr.htm

84. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007
85. moiv - 11 September 2007

Like ms_xeno, I’m soured into silence . . .

General Petraeus’ Testimony Changes Americans’ Views on Military Surge in Iraq

A national study conducted among 302 self-reported Republicans, Democrats and independents revealed that General Petraeus’ testimony had a significant impact on Americans’ views of the military surge in Iraq.

The communications research study was conducted by HCD Research and the Muhlenberg College Institute of Public Opinion (MCIPO), during September 10-11, to obtain Americans’ views on segments of the congressional testimony by General David Petraeus, the top American military commander in Iraq.

While viewing video segments of the testimony, participants indicated their levels of believability by moving their mouse from left to right on a continuum. The responses were recorded in quarter-second intervals and reported in the form of curves. Participants were asked pre- and post-viewing questions.

Among the study findings:

* Prior to viewing the video segments of the general’s testimony, 26% of all responders indicated that the military objectives of the surge “were” met, while 56% reported that the objectives “were not” met. After viewing his testimony, 40% of all responders reported that the military objectives “were” met and 46% reported that the military objectives “were not” met.

* Among political affiliation, prior to viewing the general’s testimony, 17% of Democrats reported that the military objectives “were” met and 71% reported that the “were not” met, compared to 40% of Republicans who reported that the objectives “were” met and 42% who reported that they “were not” met. Among independents, 21% reported that the objectives “were” met and 55% indicated that they “were not” met.

* After viewing the general’s testimony, 25% of Democrats reported that the military objectives “were” met and 65% reported that the “were not” met, compared to 61% of Republicans who reported that the objectives “were” met and 26% who reported that they “were not” met. Among independents, 34% reported that the objectives “were” met and 46% indicated that they “were not” met.

I got nothin’ left to say . . .

86. wilfred - 11 September 2007

Thanks for that link IB!
Everyone Says I Love You is a very sweet film indeed.

87. Intermittent Bystander - 11 September 2007

MITM – Don’t ask a barber – wise words.

SV – the dollink was the coup de grâce.

88. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

SV, you Krazy Kat you …

89. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007
90. Marie - 11 September 2007

SV – I’m with you on Crimes and Misdemeanors, even if it depressed me and made me feel like a jerk for a week. Also like Alice except for the corny, sentimental end which WA uses far too often. Better than Alice IMHO is Purple Rose of Cairo. For sheer fun, Bullets Over Broadway may be my favorite.

91. Intermittent Bystander - 11 September 2007

Wikiquote does Everyone Says I Love You.

(Going to listen to Raventones now.)

92. supervixen - 11 September 2007

Everybody Says I Love You was great fun. I also love the Baz Luhrmann Moulin Rouge. I love to see actors singing even if they’re not so great at it. It’s the difference between the West End musicals and Broadway.

Edward Norton was so cute in the Woody Allen movie. The next film I saw him was in American History X. Yikes!

SV, you Krazy Kat you …

LOL, I’m just about to introduce my son to Krazy Kat. He’s become a big fan of old comic strips. They don’t get much more intriguing than that one.

93. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

Dennis Perrin

Today marks six years into the New Madness, with, I suppose, 94 more to go. At least. Warmongers from all sides worship this day, as well they should, for it gave the green light to mass murder, torture, theft, ceaseless misery, as well as the political/religious cover needed to keep the sick flames alive. Friends tell me that the cracks are showing, that the people are seeing more and more through the lies and chaos and are turning against the larger narrative. How I wish this was so. Apart from weariness with the Iraq debacle, faith in America’s unique and unprecedented decency and goodness remains among the many, for without that faith, what do the powerless have left to imagine? And we are powerless — powerless to stop the major players from launching fresh wars, from pushing more and more of us into debt, from turning what’s left of this country into a banana republic strip mall with just enough distractions to make us feel, if not free, then somewhat amused until the next round of bills arrive, when the cycle renews itself, and round and round we go, again and again and again.

Of course, if we the people really wanted to, we could collectively pressure those who rule us into some kind of political concession, or at least irritate them enough to get their attention. But this isn’t going to happen. Not anytime soon, anyway. So we stand slack-jawed, watching in slow motion the continuing carnage, listening passively to the lies spouted to justify it all, hands over hearts, misting up as Old Glory flutters above, pretending that we’re not connected to the larger insanity.

There are those who worry that the über-nationalism expressed right after the 9/11 attacks is ebbing with each successive anniversary. If you have any remaining doubt about the utter apolitical nature of this country, read this shit and be rid of the delusion. Of all the things to come away with after six years — will 9/11 be remembered in 2525. We have been well and truly played, and played big. No wonder the imperial mouthpieces in both parties have no fear of spewing their bullshit in public. Who’s going to seriously retort? Jesus, some well-aimed rotting fruit would be a breath of fresh air.

So long as a majority of Americans believe in and keep alive the national myths that hold us in check, we’re fucked, and we’ll be continually fucked as war expands, debt piles up, elections bought in advance when not simply stolen, and those who can cash in on the madness will have the most breathing room while the rest are left to scramble, eat fast food, drink cheap beer, and watch “reality” on TV.

94. marisacat - 11 September 2007


even before Herr General spoke (since he did not testify) …

The president in the last round of polling is now

Mr 37%

no longer Mr 26%

and I just got off three go rounds (on the phone) iwth the bank. Not felicitous.

95. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

Dollink, I was lucky enough to have seen the Masters of American Comics exhibition when it came through town last summer.

The Krazy Kat and Little Nemo comics, on those HUGE panels they used to be printed on for the Sunday panels, were amazing. I’d never seen them on anything other than much smaller reproductions before that. The old Eisner and Kirby drawings were amazing too.

96. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

oops, Sunday PAPERS … ugh, can’t type.

97. moiv - 11 September 2007

Get ready to roomba.

Rusia detonates vacuum bomb

MOSCOW (Reuters) – Russia has tested the world’s most powerful vacuum bomb, an explosive device unleashing a destructive shockwave with the power of a nuclear weapon, the military said on Tuesday.

The bomb is the latest in a series of new Russian weapons and policy moves unveiled as President Vladimir Putin tries to reassert Moscow’s role on the international stage.

“Test results of the new airborne weapon have shown that its efficiency and power is commensurate with a nuclear weapon,” Alexander Rukshin, Russian deputy armed forces chief of staff, told Russia’s ORT First Channel television.

“You will now see it in action, the bomb which has no match in the world is being tested at a military site,” the state-controlled channel said. It showed a Tupolev Tu-160 strategic bomber dropping the bomb over a testing ground. A large explosion followed.

Pictures followed of what looked like a flattened multi-storeyed block of flats, surrounded by scorched soil and boulders.
This explosion generates a pressure wave that reaches much further than that from a conventional explosive. The consumption of gases in the blast also generates a partial vacuum that can compound damage and injuries caused by the explosion itself.

“The main destruction is inflicted by an ultrasonic shockwave and an incredibly high temperature,” the report said. “All that is alive merely evaporates.”

“At the same time, I want to stress that the action of this weapon does not contaminate the environment, in contrast to a nuclear one,” Rukshin said.

98. marisacat - 11 September 2007

When I used to walk Fifth Avenue, from the base to CP, I’d stop in at the old Fifth Avenue Hotel, which I think was No 5, Fifth Avenue… and always an elderly Jewish uniformed hotel staff would corral me,

What can I do for you dollink?

99. marisacat - 11 September 2007

hmm pretty sure whatever nuclear device George uses, will be somethng they want to test out.

Why not, that would be our history.

Then we get to “debate” over that like napalm at Safwan, White Phosphorus in Fallujah and elsewhere and the draining and false debate over DU.

If only Dr Strangelove had told me it was really complicated. And that Rocky Fucking ROCKY is always in the mix.

off to retry online banking.

Will wonders never cease.,

100. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

“All that is alive merely evaporates.”

What the fuck is WRONG with people?!?!

101. Miss Devore - 11 September 2007

96-bagless, I hope.

BHHM FP’d and top o’reclist at pff. The VAGS still wag.

102. Marie - 11 September 2007

#96 moiv – remember when Bush/Cheney had scheduled a test of US version of the “father” bomb? Last year if iirc. For some reason, public outrage seemed to have worked for them to cancel it. Or maybe it only looked like that and the cancellation was do to technical difficulties like they didn’t have a working prototype. The Russian test may give Bush/Cheney pause before attacking Iran.

103. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

oh, and I just wanted to drop in a goodbye toJoe Zawinul … I wore “Heavy Weather” out back in college.

104. lucid - 11 September 2007

Great, are we going to have the ‘artificial black hole’ bomb next? Detonate it and the earth disappears…

105. lucid - 11 September 2007

Oh Joe… Love his work with Miles in the psychedellic era. Still have a completely worn out copy of Sweetnighter that is in regular rotation on the turntable [gotta love the Vitous bass on that album].

Yet another legend gone… seem to be number this year.

106. mattes - 11 September 2007

moiv….did bush think russia and china were sitting on their hands?

They’re afraid of this imperial pres, too.

107. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007
108. Hair Club for Men - 11 September 2007

Russia has tested the world’s most powerful vacuum bomb, an explosive device unleashing a destructive shockwave with the power of a nuclear weapon, the military said on Tuesday.

109. supervixen - 11 September 2007

MCat, here is a webpage for you:

New York Songlines: Virtual Walking Tours of Manhattan Streets, the Fifth Avenue section.

110. Intermittent Bystander - 11 September 2007

So pleased to hear of yet another new bomb.

Learned Zawinul wrote the title track to In a Silent Way, when I heard the NPR memorial profile today.

Thanks for that, Joe.

111. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

Griffin’s Emmy Remarks to Be Censored

NEW YORK — Before Kathy Griffin won a creative arts Emmy last weekend for her reality show, “My Life on the D-List,” she joked that an award would move her to the C-list.

She was right: “C” as in censored. The TV academy said her raucous acceptance speech will be edited when the event, which was taped, is shown Saturday on the E! channel. The main prime-time Emmy Awards air the next night on Fox.

“Kathy Griffin’s offensive remarks will not be part of the E! telecast on Saturday night,” the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences said in a statement Monday.

In her speech, Griffin said that “a lot of people come up here and thank Jesus for this award. I want you to know that no one had less to do with this award than Jesus.”

She went on to hold up her Emmy, make an off-color remark about Christ and proclaim, “This award is my god now!”

The comedian’s remarks were condemned Monday by Catholic League President Bill Donohue, who called them a “vulgar, in-your-face brand of hate speech.”

According to the TV academy and E!, when the four hour-plus ceremony is edited into a two-hour program, Griffin’s remarks will be shown in “an abbreviated version” in which some language may be bleeped.

I just LOVE her.

Oh, and and Bill Donohue, a non-believer stating in blunt language that they’re a non-believer isn’t hate speech, you dumb, whiskey-drinking, baby-raping, politician-felating, protector-of-pedophile-priests motherfucker.

See the difference?

112. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

Joshua Holland and Raed Jarrar:

The frame of a religious civil war not only obscures the fact that the United States is backing a deeply unpopular side in Iraq’s political strife — that America is in fact an enemy of the Iraqi people, not of its “extremists” — it also plays into the popular but profoundly wrong notion that the conflict in Iraq is based on an age-old and perfectly irrational dispute over Islamic theological issues. In the West, it’s widely believed that religious wars are “primitive” — something Europeans shook off during the Age of Enlightenment — while the kind of struggles over land, wealth and power that are raging in Iraq, while unfortunate, are believed to be a necessary component of statehood. By ignoring the political divides that ultimately fuel the violence plaguing Iraq — by focusing on the violent symptoms and ignoring the underlying disease — the conventional wisdom plays perfectly into the widespread belief that the bloodshed in Iraq is being carried out by fanatical savages beyond our understanding.

That, in turn, diverts responsibility for the chaos that followed the U.S. invasion away from American imperial hubris. After all, how could rational, Western war planners in Maryland or Virginia possibly predict an orgy of sectarian violence when they decided to dismantle the Iraqi government and security forces and replace them with an occupation force with a “light footprint”?

But more importantly than that, the religious civil war narrative obscures the fact that the United States is not working towards political reconciliation in Iraq. As we’ve detailed before, Iraq’s nationalist groups — groups representing the majority of Iraqis — have reached out repeatedly in a series of attempts to reach a peaceful, negotiated end to the occupation and have been rebuffed. Instead of supporting the very groups that aspire to an independent Iraq where Iranians would not interfere and groups like al Qaeda would find no shelter, we are riding the wrong horse.

113. moiv - 11 September 2007

Marie …

The Russian test may give Bush/Cheney pause before attacking Iran.

That seems to be the idea, and I hope it has the desired effect.

Mattes, I’m really not sure Bush thinks, in the sense that most sentient beings would define that process. Other people do that for him. If he has thought about it, it probably didn’t make more than a momentary and superficial impression.

He should have spent less time blowing up frogs, and more time in science class.

114. marisacat - 11 September 2007

did bush think russia and china were sitting on their hands?

No I think Bush purposefully primed the world for war. Woke nation after nation to war.

Not saying other than the USA!USA! are kindly godly nations that prefer dainty tea parties to confrontation… they are not, but Bush lit a fire under countries from Russia to China to Japan to Germany.

They want in. Sarko too… blood and greed falling from his mouth. He’ll teach Turkey to heel!

115. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

PZ Myers

I’m not impressed with moments of silence or candlelight vigils or noble rhetoric about this event. If you want to do something to remember that tragedy, the best thing to do is to simply stop living your life in fear.

116. Intermittent Bystander - 11 September 2007

Gone to spam, in a silent way. . . and good night, y’all.

117. marisacat - 11 September 2007

Good for Griffin!

I caught her today on Ellen Degeneres. She is a hoot! And they beeped her left and right.

The world is so full of tired suck ups.

LOL … in the vein of ‘tell us what you really mean, the pic of the Great Gate Crashers in BHH’M’s FP over at PFF…

what a hoot!

118. supervixen - 11 September 2007

Anything that perturbs the Catholic hierarchy has got to be a good thing.

119. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

to show that I’m no jazz expert, I learned from that tribute that he wrote “Mercy Mercy Mercy” too.

120. Marie - 11 September 2007

This is an interesting diary Clinton fundraiser

Another good one over there on Waxman’s investigation of Hatch Act violations. He’s agreed to include the Clinton Admin in the probe.

Needless to say, koslings are irate about both. So, much for Democrats supporting a single standard on corruption.

121. marisacat - 11 September 2007

by the way a resident of Milton, the suburb of Atlanta that Naomi Klein wrote about (and I excepted in Scattershot) has just commented in the previous thread..


122. Madman in the Marketplace - 11 September 2007

I’ll believe Waxman when I actually see him enforce some sopoenas.

123. moiv - 11 September 2007

Major Danby‘s answer to BooHooHooMan.

Now the metaphor of “Battered Democrat Syndrome” snottily implies that people like me who think that rationally, we have to stay with the Democrats — that the unlikelihood of changing votes on Iraq or FISA or the unitary executive should matter to our choices of what we do — are weak-willed, masochistic, damaged, and the word “pussies” tends to get thrown around a lot, by some women as well as men.

Double bullshit.

When we stay with the Democrats — who are hardly abusing us, but rather disappointing us like a husband who won’t stand up to his boss and ask for a raise or who lounges around watching football rather than doing chores, that sort of problem — it is in fact for much the same reason that abused spouses stay: because however much we don’t like it, sometimes it just makes rational sense. The question often asked of battered women who kill, from the perch of safety and ignorance, is “why didn’t she leave?” Well, she doesn’t leave because often, for various reasons, she can’t. And for us, until we have a single transferable vote or a parliamentary system. We “Battered Democrats” are going to have the same answer. But we can’t set the Democratic Party on fire in its bed, and if we did we’d just wake up in Margaret Atwood’s Gilead.

124. Marie - 11 September 2007

Two of the Seven NYT Op-Ed Soldiers Have Died in Iraq
LINK They were in the horrible accident on Monday.

125. Revisionist - 11 September 2007

update 25 — clinton is trying to keep the money

126. supervixen - 11 September 2007

Major Danby is a raving loon.

127. marisacat - 11 September 2007

But we can’t set the Democratic Party on fire in its bed, and if we did we’d just wake up in Margaret Atwood’s Gilead.
— Dumby

Welllllllllllllll for the brain dead male with no sense of freedom or what is right, Gilead was not so bad.

prolly licking his prog chops.

128. Marie - 11 September 2007

When Soto hits the DEM brick wall, it’s not a good sign for the DEM Party

Your Mother’s Calling, Chuck

Seem to have lost a comment. Two of the seven NYT OP-Ed soldiers died in the horrible accident on Monday

129. lucid - 11 September 2007

it is in fact for much the same reason that abused spouses stay: because however much we don’t like it, sometimes it just makes rational sense.

Rational sense? That’s really what it is. Rational sense. Hmm… a profound perspective on domestic violence.

And, um, just how insulting is it to draw a metaphor between battered women & partisan politicos who are ‘disappointed’ in their party?

Yeah, I see that you really understand violence. Is it any wonder that people like the Major can sit around and parse the Pelosi policy of non-impeachment while thousands of innocent people are killed every month in Iraq… Right… because taking the advice of the ‘nice close friend of your husband’ to stick with him because he’s going through a ‘tough time’, despite the fact that he beats you to a pulp on a daily basis, is a rational action.

130. cad - 11 September 2007

“on the psycology of American Jews when Israel shows up with the hat.”

i hope you have an exact number of each “American Jew”…

and woody was/is a cultural satirist first and foremost.
he also did a short tribute film to raise money for 9/11 first responders:

131. supervixen - 11 September 2007

lucid – taking the advice of the ‘nice close friend of your husband’ to stick with him because he’s going through a ‘tough time’

LOL, that’s exactly right. “But Chuck is such a great bowler and we have this big tournament coming up – we don’t want him off his game! Stick with it just a little longer! Then you can leave him! What difference would a couple of weeks make to you?”

132. Shadowthief - 11 September 2007

I, for one, am grateful for this new round of cultural and political repression. It was getting damnably difficult (particularly at my age) to rebel, and great whacking prigs like Grand Inquisitor Bill Donahoe are making it so much easier.

Apparently, all that is required now to be a rebel without a cause is a mildly irreverent sense of humour. Even I can manage that on a good day.

I don’t know who started you lot on Woody Allen–oh wait, was me–but I would say that Harry’s conversation with this estranged younger sister is quite revealing of what Mr. Konigsberg thinks:

DORIS: l’m a Jew. l was born a Jew. Do you hate me because of that?

HARRY: And if our parents converted to Catholicism a month before you were born, we’d be Catholics. They’re clubs. They’re exclusionary. They foster the concept of “the other” so you know who to hate.

DORIS: That’s enough!

HARRY: A question: lf a Jew gets massacred does it bother you more than if it’s a Gentile or a black or a Bosnian?

DORIS: Yes, it does. l can’t help it. lt’s my people.

HARRY: They’re ALL your people!

133. Revisionist - 11 September 2007
134. moiv - 12 September 2007

That’s quite a paper, Rev. Among the top stories:

Missler’s SuperValu Foods Closing, Employees Blame Wal-Mart

Iraq Is Ratings Drag for Katie Couric

Burger King Unveils Healthier Kids Menu

Yep, no love lost for Kucinich there. 😉

135. frtitzcat - 12 September 2007

one thing I like about Marisa is her consistnecy. I state that from a historical context 9/11 is no more significant, maybe less so, than many many other shocking events. I say that life is tragic or comic depending upon your choice of herb.

Marisa retorts: I need a new act.

Then someone says the woodman is making a movie with the story told once as a comedy and once as a tragedy. And quotes him basically in a paraphrase of my comments.

Marisa Retorts: Woody Allen needs a new act.

You are hard as nails, wimman.

Plus the woodman has a young Vietnamese wife. I have a young Koean wife.

Shes not my daughter, however.

136. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 September 2007

the most depressing thing about Danby is that he’s so sadly typical.

Hell, look at that anti-kucinich op-ed … same attitude, different target.

137. Madman in the Marketplace - 12 September 2007
138. frtitzcat - 12 September 2007

my latest attempt to win full membership privileges, now on view at PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT!

Sorry no link, but is one really necessary?

139. JJB - 12 September 2007

Things seem to be really bad over at Kosolini’s little orange asylum if the only troll they can recruit to send over here is dkosser. That pathetic comment no. 61 actually had me feeling sorry for him, the feeling must have lasted all of 5 seconds. 🙂

As to the Wood Man, I’ve been a fan since first seeing him on “That Was The Week That Was” back in the mid-60s (he was a semi-regular performer). His best film is the recent Match Point. Especially impressive is the way Allen incorporated a major plot device from Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment so subtly that to my knowledge no one who’s ever written about the film has ever noticed. The worst was Manhattan, I agree completely with whoever it was who deplored it above (SV, I think).

140. Shadowthief - 12 September 2007

Sorry, Fritz, but Woody’s wife, Soon Yi, is of Korean descent.

Not only that, but Melinda and Melinda, the film in which the same story is told as tragedy and as comedy, appeared in theatres long ago and Woody has moved on to other projects.

141. marisacat - 12 September 2007

NBC pushing that old canard, twice this am, about Ahmadinejad “wiping Israel off the map”.

And nto sure but think Obama said “ethnically cleansed neighborhoods” in Iraq are a “good thing”.

Be nice if the so called pols got out of Pottery Barn (who denied the advert) and away from Martha Stewart.

So very skrewed.

142. dkosser - 12 September 2007


get a grip dude, no one sends me anyplace ever at any time under any circumstances….get a clue


re:dkosser: yes, I’m from NYC, I grew up there in fact, on 46th St between 5th and 6th

I’m from within a mile of there, let’s leave it at that

madman….soundz like all zionists are loons to you….too fuckin bad mate, you got a lot of misplaced anger, yer not a frustrated writer are you?….you know a wannabe hack with no originality whatsoever that isn’t mindbendingly boring or doesn’t wreak of pseudo dull intellectualism in a very limited vernacular that you try to pass off as creativity ….ugh!

143. supervixen - 12 September 2007

you know a wannabe hack with no originality whatsoever that isn’t mindbendingly boring or doesn’t wreak of pseudo dull intellectualism in a very limited vernacular that you try to pass off as creativity ….ugh!

That’s some sentence right there.

From above, ST: I read a bio of Woody a few years ago and the impression I got was that his main interests growing up were sports and movies. He had zero interest in his own Jewishness, or indeed in any kind of religion.

144. marisacat - 12 September 2007


considering you are a guy tracking around with 3 identities, 4 if I count noom baby over at PFF, you are remarkably one dimensional.

145. dkosser - 12 September 2007


eye love this place!

146. ms_xeno - 12 September 2007

Sorry, cad. I don’t understand your “numbers” comment in #130. If it’s an Allen reference, forgive my bewilderment. I confess that for the most part he leaves me cold. But maybe it’s like Picasso: When you turn out that much product, I guess you’re entitled to a certain number of clunkers in your lifetime. More than the average geek, perhaps.

I was half-dozing through the end of Mighty Aphrodite years ago (at Ampersand’s house, actually) when one of his roomies took a long drag on her cigarette and said,

“Oh, a happy ending ! Woody leaves the woman young enough to be his daughter for the woman young enough to be his GRANDdaughter !”

That actually made me laugh more than what little I saw of the actual movie. :p

Perhaps my issues stem from not being of NYC, only in it. And for a short while at that. I like my cities smaller and lower to the ground. Though it would be nice if more places in PDX bothered to learn the fine art of boiling a bagel before baking it. :/

147. ms_xeno - 12 September 2007

Oh, wait. I liked Allen in The Front. I want to rent it so that mr_xeno can see it. But Allen only acted in that one, I think.

148. marisacat - 12 September 2007

new thread:


149. cad - 12 September 2007

“Sorry, cad. I don’t understand your “numbers” comment in #130.”

well, as an american half-jew, i haven’t yet been approached by israel with a hat and vice versa, so i’m always wary of generalized perceptions aka bigotry. that’s just how i roll.

if you know anything about woody, you know he’s agnostic and has challenged religious beliefs in just about every film.

and MANHATTAN is a masterpiece. so there.

150. msxeno - 12 September 2007


…i haven’t yet been approached by israel with a hat and vice versa>…

Count yourself lucky. It started very young in our family. When our ages were still in the single digits. You can spend decades of your adult life trying to tease apart two colonial mentalities, instead of one.

I had an uncle who grouched that Republicans loved Israel because they wanted the Jews all in one place where we’d be easier to wipe out the next time.

Ah, youth.

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