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WHY? 15 October 2007

Posted by marisacat in 2008 Election, Big Box Blogs, California / Pacific Coast, DC Politics, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, la morte de St Germain Dog - the best the BLAHgers had, U.S. House.

       Cindy for Congress, For CD 8th

Cindy for Congress [official website, 2 links that follow are at the same site]

Donate to Cindys Campaign  Sign up for Newsletter Updates 

Because she will not ever, as long as she lives, be saying this

“If they were poor and they were sleeping on my sidewalk, they would be arrested for loitering, but because they have ‘Impeach Bush’ across their chest, it’s the First Amendment.”

Thre is no whiff of brioche, no sniff of Shepherdess — with Cindy.

Thar she blows – that whiff and sniff, and look closely, with Steny bringing up the rear. 

      whiff of brioche, sniff of Shepherdess

 Next year it will be small trained monkeys carrying a Cathedral length train.  I have it on good authority the monkeys’ custom suits are being made, as I write, at Versace.   Little violet suits, from the softest vicuna, trimmed with South Seas Pearls… sweat shops on the Marianas (Delay gave Nancy the keys) are sewing, fast as they can, the many sets of undies for the monkeys, from China silk.

And of course, there is this little tidbit – Ray McGovern writing at Consortium News [thanks to Madman]:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has admitted knowing for several years about the Bush administration’s eavesdropping on Americans without a court warrant. She said she was briefed on it when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee.

But was she told that the illegal surveillance began well before 9/11?

Referring to her briefing in an apologia-sans-apology Washington Post op-ed on Jan. 15, 2006, she wrote: “This is how I came to be informed of President Bush’s authorization for the NSA to conduct certain types of surveillance.”

Demonstrating her unconstitutionally subservient attitude toward the Executive Branch, Pelosi wrote:

“But when the administration notifies Congress in this manner, it is not seeking approval. There is a clear expectation that the information will be shared by no one, including other members of the intelligence committees. As a result, only a few members of Congress were aware of the president’s surveillance program, and they were constrained from discussing it more widely.”

How did the American people react upon learning in December 2005 of this glaring infringement on their Constitutional rights. Most reacted as they have been conditioned to act—out of the old fear-factor shibboleth: “After 9/11/2001, everything changed.”

And I won’t be leaving this part out! 

Yes, just as after 2/27/1933, the night of the burning of the German Parliament (Reichstag) in Berlin, everything changed.

As a German attorney there at the time put it:

“What one can blame them [German politicians and populace] for, and what shows their terrible collective weakness of character, is that this settled the matter. With sheepish submissiveness the German people accepted that, as a result of the fire, each one of them lost what little personal freedom and dignity was guaranteed by the Constitution; as though it followed as a necessary consequence. If the Communists burned down the Reichstag, it was perfectly in order that the government took ‘decisive measures.’” [Defying Hitler, A Memoir, by Sebastian Haffner, p. 121]


Dennis Perrin has an interesting and timely post up on John Lennon.  Calmez!   I am nto especially a Lennon fan, but I can appreciate and even venerate the struggle.

[I] knew about the harassment of Lennon before watching this film, but I didn’t realize how deep this campaign ran. When Lennon used his celebrity and popularity to help spring from jail the radical John Sinclair, the powers-that-be became very concerned about what Lennon would do next.

Unlike Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Angela Davis, or even the Weather Underground, Lennon’s appeal crossed over to apolitical types; and if he could wake them up, or worse, radicalize them, that would be a bad thing for those higher-ups already shaken by the growing opposition to the Vietnam war.

So J. Edgar Hoover’s FBI, in concert with the Nixon White House, began spying on Lennon and Yoko Ono, assembling a fat file on their every movement and personal associations. They weren’t about to let some long-haired dope-smoking limey fag and his Jap wife fuck with their domestic power. This is confirmed in the film by G. Gordon Liddy, who takes pride in that operation which Nixon not only knew about, but obsessed over.

Good post, very political… and this: 

They weren’t about to let some long-haired dope-smoking limey fag and his Jap wife fuck with their domestic power.

So classic.  And yes, cross over appeal drives the ptb absolutely batshitfuckingcrazy.  They feel they cannot control groups that may pop up in support, from either left or right field.  Or hell, center field.  You never know, the center right libertarian batshit all but Republicans Boyos [and they know who they are] could wake up. 

Not likely, but could happen.  Not likely tho…..  😉


This is open to comments: 

  I am going to try to do 2 – 3 “real” posts a week.  With or without threads… But will have threads 3 – 4 times a week, of course leaving that thread open til there is a new one….  If I could physically do more, I would.  But I intend to continue to post thru the GE election and into the new Congress and Administration, on all the subjects I usually post about…

Last:  “donkeytale” – and his titz –  is banned, are banned.  He has a lap pool to ply his trade in now and in all his parts and pieces is banned.  Personally, I think he is paid astroturf. 

Hey, Dkosser/Moon/noom got three diaries out of being asked to lay off for a while.  Go for it, donk. 





1. Madman in the Marketplace - 15 October 2007

welcome back, my friend.

excellent, as always. So many threads to pull from the tapestry of our ongoing, eagerly embraced oppression. That we’re left with such as Lennon and Ono as our champions only demonstrates our weakness, or how completly the powers that be have sewn us all in.

Nancy P is a sad rep of our current state, Marie Antoinette without glamour, a politician without a soul or cause, a functionary doing time as the Republic burns.

A pox on all of them.

2. liberalcatnip - 15 October 2007

Good to see you back in action.

Frankly, if Dem party supporters can’t see Pelosi for what she is by now, they’re absolutely hopeless. Her dripping condescension towards the people she claims to represent bleeds from every pore.

3. liberalcatnip - 15 October 2007

Dahr Jamail has a book coming out: Beyond the Green Zone: Dispatches from an Unembedded Journalist in Occupied Iraq. I’ll have to see if Santa will spring for that one.

4. marisacat - 15 October 2007

hey hey… 🙂

Just got thru reading a comment somewhere out in Blahgland… a breathless exhortation that if we get rid of these currently in power we will return to greatness, to respect, we will restore the Constitution and we will hold those accountable… something about impunity in there………blahblahblah.

Mindblowing. One hopes the writer is very young.

What is going on in this country is as clear as red blood slaking down a white wall.

5. bayprairie - 15 October 2007


6. BooHooHooMan - 15 October 2007

Send Nancy to Dubai. They have all the best shops and are really progressive towards women..So they say…..

She’s so bought in from jump, you can’t even really call it selling out.
So many posers looking to work for some Sultan or other…

Kind of like in the allegory of the ant hill….

7. marisacat - 15 October 2007


the close of the McGovern piece.. honestly, there is nothing left to say.

Were you one of those with whom Gonzales had discussions, Nancy?

Either way you were woefully derelict in your duty. Either they told you or they didn’t. Either way you come off as no leader.

Time to fish or cut bait. Assuming the Bush regime did not inform you regarding eavesdropping on Americans before 9/11, do not any longer cover up for the White House. Rather, these crimes demand impeachment.

If they did keep you fully informed and, out of obeisance to the executive branch you acquiesced and said nothing, you should lay down your duties as House leader, examine your conscience, and consider resigning.

8. marisacat - 16 October 2007

.. listening to Eric Prince and his fictions.. on with Rose…

9. BooHooHooMan - 16 October 2007

They weren’t about to let some long-haired dope-smoking limey fag and his Jap wife fuck with their domestic power.

Imagine The latest in Progressive Commentary online
From Markos and the Boyz:
“Why did they have to call the guy with a Jap wife a Fag???….

“Pick your battles I guess”-Sarah Silverman

10. moiv - 16 October 2007

Glad to see the bar is open. 😉

There’s a big saloon fight still in progress over Hillary’s “all options are on the table” statement on Iran. The best defense her cheerleaders can muster is that she’s lying to us for our own good.

Ideals won’t beat the party of Satan (0 / 0)

And we all lie. Your mom never lied to you? Of course she did. Did a church ever lie to you? Teachers? Did they all harm you with lies of Tooth Fairies and Easter Bunnies? Some lies serve very good purposes, especially when you are dealing with an idiot electorate who will vote against their own interests if you tell them the truth while Bush is telling them what they want to hear.

by JamesBrown4ever on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 01:09:59 AM CDT

That’s us, all right — the idiot electorate.

11. Hair Club for Men - 16 October 2007

Cindy’s casualty figure is seriously out of date.

12. Hair Club for Men - 16 October 2007

“If they were poor and they were sleeping on my sidewalk, they would be arrested for loitering, but because they have ‘Impeach Bush’ across their chest, it’s the First Amendment.”

God I’d love to lock Nancy in the subway with my favorite homeless guy. He comes into the car and starts singing. Everybody gives him money so he’ll leave. He’s that bad. Of course we all know Nancy’s being reincarnated as a homeless guy who can’t sing.

13. marisacat - 16 October 2007

sorry HC

what is her figure… ?

I scanned the doc at the campaign site, just one figure of the mother of KIA @ _________

I missed other figures

14. marisacat - 16 October 2007

moiv – 10

long long excuse season coming up. Going to get very dreary and irritating… gah.

15. Hair Club for Men - 16 October 2007

2260 dead.

That’s when, Fall of 2005?

16. moiv - 16 October 2007

Yeah, just like the endless litany of excuses for the excesses of mother church — Catholics. Can’t Live With ‘Em, Can’t Live Without ‘Em(?)

Who killed more people (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:

The Spanish inquistion actually killed far fewer than the protestants in England and Germany. But they had the printing press so they wrote the history. Recent historical work done in Spain is painting a far different picture.

God is busy somewhere else and left Chad Vader in charge of earth.

by Grassroots Mom on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 12:36:41 AM CDT

And from the same apologist for murder, “our killers are better than those Prod killers” . . .

Yes the Catholic Church is really annoying on the issues of abortion and birth control. But at least they walk the walk. They are also out there protesting when ever there is an execution at the state prison. They provide ongoing support for the teenaged mothers who do keep their babies. They shelter refugees and immigrants, helping them with legal problems. I can deal with them because unlike the fundie wingnuts, they are not hypocrits.

“Gah” indeed — GMAFB

17. marisacat - 16 October 2007

yeah very out of date. or a typo. I cannot see that she would be behind on the deaths.

18. Hair Club for Men - 16 October 2007

Speaking of the Catholic church, I was in the movies and a trailer for “Elizabeth” came on.

Walter Raleigh says ominously to Elizabeth “the Armada brings with it the Inquisition”.

And somebody shouted out from the seats “and nobody expected that” and like 300 people just couldn’t control their laughter.

Lots of Monty Python fans in the world.

19. marisacat - 16 October 2007


have to hand it to MP, they may help us save ourselves [some of us] yet. Or at least achieve lasting irony.



those are some whoppers.

20. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

Speaking of that wonderful Catholic Church: Sex, lies and videotape: turmoil at the Vatican


· Official secretly filmed propositioning young man
· Bureaucrat claims he was investigating satanist plot

Ah yes…the old “satanist plot” ploy.

The Vatican was last night at the centre of an unusually public sex scandal after acknowledging it had suspended a senior official who was filmed apparently propositioning a young man in his office.

Monsignor Tommaso Stenico, a capo ufficio, or section head, at the Vatican ministry responsible for the clergy, insisted yesterday he was not gay. He said he had posed as a homosexual to research a plot by satanists.

21. marisacat - 16 October 2007

Monsignor Tommaso Stenico, a capo ufficio, or section head, at the Vatican ministry responsible for the clergy, insisted yesterday he was not gay. He said he had posed as a homosexual to research a plot by satanists.

Maybe Stenico and Craig can meet up. Half way. An airport somewehre…


22. marisacat - 16 October 2007

Eric Prince just called Blackwater

“a very robust temp agency”.

that really made me laugh.

23. mattes - 16 October 2007

Nice to see this diary.

Just watched Erik Prince.

Libertarians: Markos, Jay and Erik, so nice. All military. Trained to kill.

As for Pelosi….why doesn’t she just tattoo a star on her forehead.

24. Hair Club for Men - 16 October 2007

Eric Prince just called Blackwater

“a very robust temp agency”.

Never doubt that the Onion got there first.

25. Miss Devore - 16 October 2007


Killy Girls?

26. marisacat - 16 October 2007

thanks mattes…


27. marisacat - 16 October 2007

Eric also said he wants the tax payer to get a good deal.

Boy they just laugh openly at the American people.

Charlie completely set up the scenario that we now should dispatch Blackwater contingents to do things like SAVE PEOPLE in Rwanda. Darfur, elsewhwere. As if we ever save anyone.

Such bullshite. I am sure many will buy it. In fact I know they do.

28. marisacat - 16 October 2007


Miss D… LOL

29. moiv - 16 October 2007

catnip, it’s so reassuring to know the Vatican is still keeping us safe from satanists.

You might enjoy this.

The origin of the red Prada shoes is just one closely guarded secret surrounding the life of Pope Benedict XVI.

Others, having to do with Italians and their relationship with the church, their families, and the closet are addressed in an article by Michael Joseph Gross which appears in the new issue of Out. Gross takes a look at Rome’s past and present gay history and its relationship with that Catholic city-within-a-city, the Vatican, described to him by an American expat as “one of the most homophobic institutions in the world and probably the most gay institution in the world, outside of gay nightclubs.”

Here’s a brief but amusing excerpt. One of the folks Gross interviewed for the piece was Italy’s most popular gay TV personality, Fabio Canino (not to be confused with Fabio Cannavaro), who described a colorful lunch date he’d had at the Vatican:

“Fabio Canino says he received a mysterious invitation a few years ago to lunch at the Vatican with a cardinal. ‘I walked in,’ he remembers, ‘and I thought the person in front of me was a drag queen, not a cardinal.’ He flings his arms up in imitation and cries out, lisping, ‘Hel-lo, sweetie!’ The prelate, he says, eagerly dished his Vatican colleagues, referring to one black cardinal as ‘Naomi’ (after Naomi Campbell). As Canino tells the story, he called the cardinal a hypocrite and asked how, as a gay man, he could serve this homophobic institution. The cardinal looked at him across the lavish table where they sat and said, ‘I have everything here.’

Before Canino left, the cardinal—like a politician, or a parent—told him to get in touch if he ever needed help. Some time later, when Canino produced a play in Rome, the production was stuck without a rehearsal space. Canino says he called the cardinal in desperation and was immediately granted the use of a room in the Vatican. He says the cardinal also arranged for the Vatican printing office to produce, for free, the souvenir script that was sold at the play to raise money for a local AIDS foundation.

The title of the play? “Making Porn.”

Ah, the eternal verities. There are still 8,000,000 stories in the naked city . . .

30. marisacat - 16 October 2007

oh that is a scream moiv…

So very much the church. On target.

31. raincat100 - 16 October 2007

This is on your The Real News feed, but I think it’s worth highlighting:

Why Senator Clinton?

32. marisacat - 16 October 2007

I meant to put this in the body of the post, and forgot..

Ron Paul was on TNH Friday, and mouthed, when his early reticence broke down, all the ugly lies about abortion.

BULLHSIT with the canard, same as the Democrats use to elect pro life, that he respects law.


Once you get into a difficult problem, and then you have one monolithic answer, like Roe v. Wade, then you come up with a solution where the courts legislate and allow abortion to be done a minute before birth, and I can get paid for doing one of those, yet a girl, because she throws her baby away, we arrest her for murder. There’s something awfully inconsistent about that.

And I have so much legal responsibility as a physician, if I do harm to the fetus, I can be sued. So the fetus has legal rights, but we should figure that out at the state level on the extreme circumstances and not legalize abortion at any time during pregnancy, which is essentially what the Supreme Court did.

I have caught him before on abortion (he gets really extreme nad ugly) on Board of Ed (get rid of it), on stopping all federally underwritten medical care (Medicare, medical care on the rez, etc.) – and so on. Over and over I find libertarians really are useful to the Republicans. Who also want to do away with ALL entitlements.

Which makes sense if it will be war all the time. All over the world. With Eric with The Bangs leading.

Oh yeah he is so harmless.

33. BooHooHooMan - 16 October 2007

I’m thinking of investing in a dart board but I can’t find one packaged with a spear gun and a complete variety of targets. The Catholic Church the Vatican , and their favored secular heirs to millenial fortunes brokered a veritable millenia ago by papal decree should account for have of the disposable sheets…

Head for the Hills when the missionaries land with their global vision.

34. BooHooHooMan - 16 October 2007

More than * half* actually ( mispell and correction)

35. BooHooHooMan - 16 October 2007

Keeping ones enemy closer, opportunism, and RealPolitik is a failure…

Only the willingness to let go of ethnocentric identification will allow us to save ourselves….It is such a terrible cycle of despotism We have raised it here in the Xtian West to a most wicked form: cloaked in righteousness, disguised as opportunity. Not much of a chance as the non Xtian despots give less concern over appearances and their people are even more desperate and afraid than Cholly with the cable bill paid here…..

Invariably someone makes it out of the killing fields, survives the famine, or lives to tell of swordsmen on horseback….fewer over time to be sure. As terrible as it sounds, until people are willing to kill the despots here in the West, [**note below** ] the cycle will continue without pause and only a pause it will be, as so much of it has been fomented globally arms for indiginous despots, or ex- pat-despots-
in-waiting a bowl of rice in one locale for the peasants a chance at a big mac in another…

…The best it seems to me are mere moments or pause here or their around the globe..[this, perversely, is the most common rationale for our own unforgiveable slaughter] If History is a guide, the murder- mass deprivation – justifiable homicide cycle repeats it self again and again until the heirs of justice become corrupt..the shortest phase in the cycle….

re violence–Upon Historical review, not much of a believer in the power of non violence to rearrange anything for long other than the deck chairs on the cruise ship or maybe a a hammock choice in a steamers berth to similar slave wage work elsewhere. …

36. AlanSmithee - 16 October 2007

Did I just wake up this morning to find Hillary parroting the Chimperor’s lines? No, I must be still asleep. I’ll just hit myself with this brick until I wake up…

Hillary Clinton: ‘we do not conduct or condone torture’

In a appearance today on the program The VIEW, Democratic presidential front runner Hillary Clinton layed out her opposition to the use of what the CIA called, “enhanced interrogation techniques.”

“I think it’s really important for the United States to make it absolutely clear that as a policy we don’t conduct or condone torture,” Clinton said, to audience applause.

37. BooHooHooMan - 16 October 2007

Remember the MIC Murtha guy we were talking about last week?


Air Force’s No. 2 weapons buyer found dead
Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:05pm EDT

By Andrea Shalal-Esa

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Air Force’s No. 2 acquisition official, facing scrutiny for a temporary job arranged by the service while he awaited Senate confirmation, was found dead at his home in an apparent suicide, according to an internal Air Force memo obtained by Reuters on Monday.

“Mr. Riechers was found deceased in his home, cause of death appears to be suicide, time of death is unknown,” said the memo, which was issued late Sunday.

Charles Riechers, principal deputy assistant secretary for acquisition, was working on the Air Force’s highest priority weapons programs, including a $40 billion aerial refueling tanker that is due to be awarded late this year or early next, and a $15 billion combat search and rescue helicopter.

His death comes against the backdrop of heightened concerns about Air Force weapons programs, but the service said it was not expected to affect any contract awards.

Also from Reuters

US Air Force sees no delays in key weapons programs
Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:32pm EDT

No. 2 Air Force purchasing official found dead
Some lawmakers oppose any move to split tanker deal
U.S. Air Force warns against satellite plans delay
U.S. Air Force eyes $20 bln budget hike
Russian strategic bombers run Arctic exercise

WASHINGTON, Oct 15 (Reuters) – The U.S. Air Force on Monday said it did not expect delays in its key acquisition programs despite the unexpected death of its No. 2 acquisition official, Charles Riechers, in an apparent suicide.

Riechers, found dead at his home on Sunday, was working on the Air Force’s highest priority weapons programs, including a $40 billion aerial refueling tanker that is due to be awarded late this year or early next, and a $15 billion combat search and rescue helicopter.

“While Mr. Riechers was an integral part of these programs, the Air Force does not foresee any delays to these acquisition program schedules,” said Air Force spokeswoman Jennifer Bentley. (Reporting by Andrea Shalal-Esa)

From two weeks ago:

U.S. Air Force warns against satellite plans delay
Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:00pm EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Air Force warned lawmakers on Friday against proposed budget cuts to a pair of multibillion-dollar military satellite programs being vied for by Lockheed Martin Corp and Boeing Co.

“The programs can’t slip any more,” said Major Monica Bland, an Air Force spokeswoman. “Continuity of funding is critical to controlling costs and schedules.”

One of the programs at issue is a planned network of laser-linked communication satellites, known as Transformational Communications Satellites, or TSAT, valued at up to $26 billion over the next 10 years.

38. raincat100 - 16 October 2007

Marisacat: Dave Neiwert has a piece on Ron Paul:


39. Miss Devore - 16 October 2007

An image of the late JPII or a profile of a kitten? You decide:


40. marisacat - 16 October 2007

thanks raincat… I will take a look.

41. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

the Paul worshippers are funny … just completely unwilling to look at his history.

42. JJB - 16 October 2007

moiv, no. 16,

That’s a terrific story. Reminds me of Francis Cardinal Spellman, who ran the archdiocese of NY for almost 30 years, and had a thing for Broadway chorus boys.

43. marisacat - 16 October 2007

One of my favorites stories of the princes of the church was Archbishop Quinn out here in SF.. After they removed him to Oxford (and as a fav of JPII he really had expected some ducal palazzo in sunny Italy for his retirement)… they sent us Levada… who now is one o f the right hand people to Ratz-zinger.

Quinn had kept “boys” for years. Very youthful looking lovers. I had heard about it thru the years from gay friends. And I guess a good amount of trolling for rough trade.

LOL. The problem was he was putting the beloveds up in suburban homes. That he bought, using church funds.

Not a good denouement for the church’s bottom line.

44. marisacat - 16 October 2007

Right on cue. for AFRICOM, Eric Prince and the arms dealers…. where there is war to be had there is little “saving” to do. And Hillary said at Howard U she “would blow the Sudanese pilots out of the sky”. To some applause, tho not the full audience.

The Coming Collision in Sudan
With the Lost Boys in Southern Sudan (Part 2)

By David Morse

Even before the Cessna touched down in Juba, the capital of South Sudan, I knew that we were on the front lines of what may someday be a huge war; that we were witnessing the opening skirmish in a series of resource wars in which countries like Sudan and Nigeria now figure prominently, but which may spread to most of Africa.

Not only is this continent rich in mineral wealth; but the inhabitants of a number of its countries can still be driven from their land — raped and killed — with impunity. Today’s resource-driven conflicts are but an extension of the slave trade as well as the ivory, gold, rubber, and diamond trades that have fed on Africa, undermining and corrupting its people’s attempts at governance.

Oil was the precipitating cause of the 21-year-long civil war in Sudan. The South had the oil; the North was the center of power. When the North first moved to seize the southern oilfields in the mid-1980s, a rebellion began — and, immediately after that, came the attacks on southern villages that caused our “Lost Boys” to flee for their lives. The Comprehensive Peace Agreement, signed in January of 2005, was supposed to heal the rupture between North and South and divide the oil equitably. [snip]

45. wozzle - 16 October 2007

And who in Wisconsin could forget the hijinx of Archbishop Rembert “Tell Me That You Love Me” Weakland?

It’s no longer a surprise.

46. marisacat - 16 October 2007

no surprise, absolutely. For the astute it was known decades ago.

Parents have long handed their children over for ritual sacrifice.

And will continue to do so, imo.

47. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

The Pro-War Undertow of the Blackwater Scandal

One of the most unusual aspects of the current Blackwater scandal is that it places recent killings of Iraqi civilians front-and-center even though the killers were Americans. This angle is outside the customary media frame that focuses on what Iraqis are doing to each other and presents Americans — whether in military uniform or in contractor mode — as well-meaning heroes who sometimes become victims of dire circumstances.

Many members of Congress, like quite a few journalists, have hopped on the anti-Blackwater bandwagon with rhetoric that bemoans how the company is making it more difficult for the U.S. government to succeed in Iraq. But the American war effort has continued to deepen the horrors inside that country. And Washington’s priorities have clearly placed the value of oil way above the value of human life. So why should we want the U.S. government to succeed in Iraq?

Unless the deadly arrogance of Blackwater and its financiers in the U.S. government is placed in a broader perspective on the U.S. war effort as a whole, the vilification of the firm could distract from challenging the overall presence of American forces in Iraq and the air war that continues to escalate outside the American media’s viewfinder.

48. CSTAR - 16 October 2007

I couldn’t stand watching the Eric Prince on Rose interview more than two minutes. Just the platform he needed to show that he’s really a nice guy after all…

What is it with that hair anyway. So…hitleresque..

49. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

‘Many in the US Military Think Bush and Cheney Are Out of Control’

I think he underestimates the damage that both the American and Israeli right are willing to create, but love this tidbit at the end:

Kolko: Israel may be a factor. They must cross Syrian and Jordanian airspace, and the Iranians will be prepared if they are not shot down over Syria. Their countermeasures may be effective, but perhaps not … War with Iran will lead to a rain of rockets and Israel would be left with an inability to deal with local priorities. Iran is likely to get nuclear bombs sooner or later. So will other nations. Israel has hundreds already. Israeli strategists believe deterrence will then exist. Why risk war?

Israel dislikes Iran and the prospect of Iranian nuclear weapons, but they believe they can handle it with a deterrent relationship. Israel needs its army, which is not large enough for potential nearby problems — for Palestinians and its Arab neighbors, who it rightfully fears and hates. That means Israel can be belligerent, but it is not capable of playing the US role, except of course with nuclear weapons.

So I regard the Israelis as opponents of a war with Iran which would involve them. They certainly noticed how during the war with Lebanon the Palestinians in Gaza used the opportunity to increase pressure on Israel from the south. Israelis opposed the Iraq war because it would lead to Iranian domination of the region, which it has.

Hence, the report that Cheney is trying to use Israel, if it is true, shows that he’s confused and quite mad — but also unusually isolated.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But what about the Democratic Party? Isn’t it in the interest of the Democratic Party to do everything they can to end the war?

Kolko: All three leading Democratic Party presidential hopefuls — Clinton, Obama and Edwards — refused at a debate recently in New Hampshire to promise to pull the US military out of Iraq by the beginning of 2013. The American public is a small factor, as elections have repeatedly shown, but may play some role also. As the last election proved, anyone who thinks Democrats will stop wars is fooling him- or herself. But war with Iran would require new authorizations. Then the Congress would, potentially, be very important.

I sure hope he’s right about the military, but I’m not counting on it, and frankly the Air Force is rife with xtian nutjobs.

50. marisacat - 16 October 2007

Prince has been ‘Rose and Clooney washed’ in my opinion.

Like “pink washed”, pretend you donate a share of profits to breast cancer, but of course you do not. Or you donate a dollar, a single dollar to justify using the word… . Or ”poor washed” (which is what Rose and Clooney are doing) … which means masking your actual actions as “for the poor”.

Think of the Catholic Church. LOL. Evangelical missionaries, etc. As a sort of war effort.

We killed all the people in the country. To save them.

51. Glingle - 16 October 2007

Just to depress you all even more

He was the CIA’s expert on Pakistan’s nuclear secrets, but Rich Barlow was thrown out and disgraced when he blew the whistle on a US cover-up.
Now he’s to have his day in court

52. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

In the Kingdom of Fear:

I’d know why another of my heroes, Rep. John Conyers, who had been out there hugging the peerless David Swanson and the courageous Cindy Sheehan — holding meetings in basements, whipping up articles of impeachment — suddenly shut up, backed off, and dove under his desk when the polls closed. Freaked out — after 21 terms in Congress!

I don’t know if House droid Nancy Pelosi experiences fear; if she sleeps, or even blinks, but her strident insistence that she alone is the Decider on impeachment is a power grab indicating either her ignorance of, or contempt for, the U.S. Constitution. Article II, Section 4 leaves no wiggle room, but is a mandate — “The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.”

Pelosi’s mantra that “impeachment is off the table” mirrors Bush’s 9-11 broadside, and is clear evidence that she is far more concerned with politics than with the faceless, invisible bodies that keep piling up because of her inaction. In a recent interview with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer, Pelosi said she is determined that Bush will not escape his legacy. “This war is Bush’s war and it’s Cheney’s war. And now,” she said, smacking her lips in delight — “this war is the Republican’s war…”

So there you have it. When Pelosi and other members of Congress were sworn in after the 2006 election, 2,761 American uniformed military had been slain. In the ensuing 11 months, while Democrats were caving in, kissing ass, and giving Bush everything he demanded to expand his war, an additional 1,072 of our young men and women have perished. With 13 months remaining for this administration, one must wonder how many more innocent Iraqi citizens and American military must die in order for Pelosi to write Bush’s legacy with their blood…

If Democrats in Congress actually read that document which they swore to “support and defend against all enemies foreign and domestic,” they would know that any member of the House can start impeachment proceedings by (are you listening, Rep. Dennis Kucinich?) merely tossing a resolution in the hopper for referral to the appropriate committee.

There is good reason for Americans to be scared, for as George Orwell said, “It does not matter if the war is not real, or when it is, victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continous…The war is waged by the ruling group against its subjects.”

It’s them against us — a greedy corporate cabal protected by a cruel and sinister Dick Cheney and Bush, a vicious, brainless jackass who endowed himself with “wonder-working” masturbatory power to torture and kill at will.

I once read that the Constitution is our birth certificate. If we are to remain a legitimate republic and escape this Kingdom of Fear, we must impeach both of these illegitimate warmongers. We must resist being fatigued into compliance with murder and into relinquishing our freedoms.

As Hunter S. Thompson wrote so succinctly just prior to the 2004 elections, “We are down to nut-cutting time,” and, again, with Warren Zevron, Thompson admonished — “If you can’t run, walk…If you can’t walk, crawl…But don’t look down…It’s a long, long fall.”

Let us begin.

53. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

A war on words.

I can’t excerpt any of it … the whole story is remarkable.

54. marisacat - 16 October 2007


Thanks for posting that, I read it the other night and let it slip away from me..




ugh I read things like Kolko in Spiegel and these people need to think back to what they expected in 00. And what they expected in spring/summer of 02.

I was not the only person out here who said, think twice voting for Bush, even if your automatic default is Rep and conservative”. We had more than an inkling what was planned.

My line then was, “we have enough enemies, we don;’t need to take on the personal enemies of the Bush Family”.

Not that it matters, I think Maddy, Hilarius, Berger (close to Mama Clinton but goes in the back door, or so I read) and Cohen were much hotter in 98 for war with Iraq than i perceived at the time.

Wht a mess we are in…

Say hello to War, War Bonds, National Service soon to be a draft… the joke is on us.

55. lucid - 16 October 2007

Nice to see you back Mcat. Hope you had a good weekend.

56. lucid - 16 October 2007

Some lies serve very good purposes, especially when you are dealing with an idiot electorate who will vote against their own interests if you tell them the truth while Bush is telling them what they want to hear.

Ah, someone would have gotten along quite well with Leo Straus.

57. CSTAR - 16 October 2007
58. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

David Neiwert

It’s important to make an issue of eliminationist talk precisely because it is so poisonous to the national discourse. For starters, its innate divisiveness belies its practitioners’ demands for “national unity.” Moreover, its targets are in a lose-lose position: if they attempt to continue to practice the old-fashioned politics of traditional civility out of principle, they are doomed to be bulldozered; but if they stand up and fight back, they’re accused of being uncivil. (It’s funny how bullies act all wounded and picked on when somebody punches back.)

This is easily the ugliest facet of a conservative movement that doesn’t have many attractive ones to begin with, and the more the general public sees it in all its mouth-foaming glory, the less they want anything to do with them. With polls a month ago showing something like 86 percent support for SCHIP, nasty attacks on 12-year-olds seem unlikely to change the public’s mind. (A more recent Rasmussen poll showed 57 percent disapproved of President Bush’s veto of the SCHIP bill.) More important, there’s a growing consensus that, like the centrists at Poliblogger, we are “sick to death of these people and their views of both politics and public discourse.”

Yet at the same time, eliminationist rhetoric creates a vicious upward spiral that inevitably expresses itself in violence: When its practitioners face the inevitable retaliation, their response always is to ratchet it up another notch, until the back-and-forth gets so ugly that hardly anyone can tell who is worse. This is not discourse; it’s a recipe for the destruction of our democratic institutions.

So while we should allow ourselves to enjoy our low mordant chuckles at the spectacle of the conservative-movement bus plunging off a cliff with Michelle Malkin maniacally cackling at the steering wheel, it’s best to remember that it’s still just a metaphor and a cartoonish one at that. They’ll be back, like Wile E. Coyote or Freddie Krueger, after dusting themselves off and pretending nothing untoward has just occurred.

Because there’s one other facet of the movement-conservative mindset that will always be in play: they never give up. Defeat just makes them more determined. Once they’ve gotten their taste of flying monkeyhood, they won’t be turning back. There already are harbingers that some of the characters involved in this controversy — notably Free Republic and others — will be playing an increasing role in street-level right-wing “advocacy” in the coming months. (I’ll be reporting on these developments as more details emerge.)

And besides, as Eric Boehlert observed, being spectacularly wrong has never slowed this crowd down before, especially not in terms of how they are regarded by the Beltway media. Indeed, we should probably look for more glowing profiles of Malkin and her friends in the coming months.

The Frost family fiasco, I suspect, was just a shot across the bow. The 2008 election cycle could well get very interesting, and not necessarily in a good way.

59. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

I wonder if Pelosi and the Dems made a deal with Bush not to impeach because of the pending war with Iran. Wouldn’t want the CIC to be all tied up in hearings when Israel (supposedly) needs protecting, would they?

60. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

CNN is reporting that Turkey has officially threatened to shut Incirclik airbase to the US over the Armenian resolution.

61. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

#29. moiv – maybe that’s just part of the church’s “love the sinner” campaign. 😉

62. marisacat - 16 October 2007

The whole Armenian resolution has been stunning to watch. Why now? Not like the Turks don’t have very easy retaliation. As they’ve shown

63. marisacat - 16 October 2007


the eliminationist rhetoric is stronger than any poll. IMO.

And the money, winger and secretive, behind all the hard core rhetoric is stronger than any poll.

LOL Or you can bleat on the blahgs about “taking the country back”.

64. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

Question from the back of the room:

If the Iraqi court system was good enough to try Saddam and his cronies with the US cheering that on as “justice”, then why isn’t it good enough to try the Blackwater thugs?

65. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

Guns take pride of place in US family values

Studies show that having a gun at home makes it six times more likely that an abused woman will be murdered. A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack. Yet despite those figures US gun culture is not retreating. It is growing. Take Katz’s case in Oregon. She brought her cause to court under a state law that gives licensed gun-owners the right to bring a firearm to work: her school is her workplace. Such a debate would have been unthinkable a few decades ago. Now it is the battleground. ‘Who would have thought a few years ago, we would even be having this conversation? But this won’t stop here,’ said Professor Brian Anse Patrick of the University of Toledo in Ohio. Needless to say, last week the judge sided with Katz and she won the first round of her case.

It is a nation awash with guns, from the suburbs to the inner cities and from the Midwest’s farms to Manhattan’s mansions. Gun-owning groups have been so successful in their cause that it no longer even seems strange to many Americans that Katz should want to go into an English class armed. ‘They have made what was once unthinkable thinkable,’ said Patrick, a liberal academic. He should know. He owns a gun himself. Even the US critics of gun culture are armed.

To look at the photographs in Kyle Cassidy’s book Armed America is to glimpse a surreal world. Or at least it seems that way to many non-Americans. Cassidy spent two years taking portrait shots of gun owners and their weapons across the US.

The result is a disturbing tableau of happy families, often with pets and toddlers, posing with pistols, assault rifles and the sort of heavy machine-guns usually associated with a warzone. ‘By the end I had seen so many guns and I knew so much about guns that it no longer seemed unusual,’ Cassidy said. He keeps his in a gun safe in his home in Philadelphia. ‘This turned into a project not about guns but about a diverse group of people,’ he said.

66. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

I think Neiwert is right. With the Dems threatening to take back the WH while keeping control of congress, along with the fact that social conservatives re gritting their teeth over the current frontrunners – flip flopper Ken™ Doll and cushy with the “sinners” Guiliani – the general election season is primed to be extremely nasty.

I can’t remember which pundit it was that I saw yesterday who went on about how the conservative movement is in complete disarray but that fact has also made them very desperate. They’ll fight but they’re not the same front that they used to be. In fact, they may be even more dangerous at this point.

67. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007
68. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

Arlington to expand for Iraq war losses

WASHINGTON – At Arlington National Cemetery one recent Friday, there were four funerals scheduled at 9 a.m., three at 10 a.m., six at 11 a.m., and 15 between 1 and 3 p.m.

The nation’s shrine to its military dead had 6,785 funerals in the just-concluded fiscal year, an all-time record. Now, as the dying of the World War II generation peaks, the cemetery is so busy that despite careful choreography, people attending one funeral can hear the bugle and rifle salutes echoing from another.

As a result, the cemetery is about to begin a $35 million expansion that would push the ordered ranks of tombstones beyond its borders for the first time since the 1960s.

69. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

#67. I keep wondering if this supposed disagreement about what to do about Iran – this “fight” between Rice/Gates on one side and Cheney on the other – is even real. You’d think that, if it was, Rice would be doing a helluva lot more to push the ME peace process since that would be a way to cut things off at the pass. She’s done virtually nothing and she was one of the Iraq war fearmongers. I think the public is probably being sold another faux bill of goods when it comes to her so-called resistance to bombing Iran. That’s why I was surprised by Jimmy Carter’s gushing words about her to Blitzer last week – as if she’s a voice of reason in the administration. Her position as sec of state is supposed to provide that but, personally, I don’t see it in her.

70. marisacat - 16 October 2007

agree, I don’t see this big battle between Condi and Cheney and various lining up with each. Manufactured. Maybe contention over small things, but that is it.

Regional bonfire, eventually some sort of global war, full fledged – not the spotty event we have now – anti terrorism masking religious war….

Meanwhile Putin skulks around laughing at us…

In Iran, Putin Warns Against Military Action


Nazila Fathi, reporting for The New York Times, writes:

“President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia told a summit of five Caspian Sea nations in Iran today that any use of military force in the Caspian region was unacceptable and in a declaration the countries agreed that none of them would allow their territories to be used as a base for launching military strikes against any of the others.”

71. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007
72. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

Not sure how many of you might be interested, but Canada’s fall version of the state of the union – our “speech from the throne” (which always makes me picture someone sitting on the john pontificating) – will be happening this evening. It will be shown online live at CPAC’s site, starting at 6pm ET (unusual time since it’s usually on in the afternoon). It’s read by the Governor General – not the PM.

73. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

Excellent takedown of centrism.

74. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007
75. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

Police charge woman who shouted profanities at overflowing toilet

Why, you ask?

“The toilet was overflowing and leaking down into the kitchen and I was yelling (for my daughter) to get the mop,” she said, according to The Times-Tribune. “A guy is yelling, ‘Shut the [expletive] up,’ and I yelled back, ‘Mind your own business.’”

Her next-door neighbor, an off-duty cop, eventually called police. Herb was charged with disorderly conduct.

76. CSTAR - 16 October 2007

# 74 The comments in that link are really hilarious; I couldn’t think of anything better to add.

77. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

#75. I have zero tolerance for my fellow Herbs being abused by macho cops.

78. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

Just heard about this on CNN: Reading, writing, recruiting?

Chicago Public Schools, which already has the largest junior military reserve program in the nation, on Monday will commission the country’s first public high school run by the U.S. Marines, much to the chagrin of activists who have fought to keep the armed services out of city schools.

The dedication of the Marine Military Academy on the Near West Side comes a few days after Chicago officials announced plans to open an Air Force academy high school in 2009. If that happens, Chicago will become the only public school district in the nation to have academies dedicated to the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines.

Sorry, but that’s just scary.

Also heard on CNN that Harry Reid is considering “minor tweaks” to the SCHIP bill to please Bush in case they can’t override his veto.

This fainting goat moment brought to you by Levitra – for all of your congressional erectile dysfunction needs.

79. marisacat - 16 October 2007

whereas SF, last I heard, did not allow recruiting on campuses here. ROTC is an issue as well. It embarrasses Newsom, think he has even said it makes us look unpatriotic.

And SF is not not not liberal. In case ST is still on a jag about that…

80. liberalcatnip - 16 October 2007

The recruiting that goes on in schools is bad enough but to have branches of the armed services actually running high schools? That’s Orwellian.

81. marisacat - 16 October 2007

Lenin’s Tomb has a review up of the Faludi book, “Terror Dream”

82. Hair Club for Men - 16 October 2007


What happens to women in this story? They can return to domestic docility, or they can take up decoy roles in the military. They can be like the precious Jessica Lynch, for example, whose story has been written and rewritten on her behalf and without her input several times. The helpless white girl roughed up by savages, rescued by the Rough Riders: a damsel in distress and danger, in need of humanitarian intervention. They can be weeping widows and mothers (unless their sons have been killed as a result of an unpopular war – intriguingly, there is no mention of Cindy Sheehan in Faludi’s book). They can be “Let’s Roll” widows, provided they stick with the media script provided in advance

And note how women who step out of line, Barbara Lee in 2002, the Dixie Chicks, Rachel Corrie, Cindy Sheehan all get attacked in ways men don’t.

83. marisacat - 16 October 2007

LOL IOZ, predictably, has a different take… he is reading Faludi as well.

Aside from the Faludi book, I agree with IOZ about the country. I said of Bremer and his combat boots, he does not want to be a soldier, he wants to bed down WITH a soldier.


84. Hair Club for Men - 16 October 2007

LOL IOZ, predictably, has a different take…

Jesus. Never read that guy with soda in your mouth. I almost choked laughing.

85. marisacat - 16 October 2007

IOZ is a scream!

Another post the same day is on DKos. Miles above some of the take downs around.

But then IOZ is a literate and vivacious soul.

As you know, dear Readers, I make a diligent effort to keep abreast of the latest insanity from the “Look over there, a sick baby holding a dying puppy!” faction of the War Party. This taxing project involves several agonizing daily minutes on DailyKos, a site dedicated to the proposition that one ah dese days, oh boy, one ah dese days, you’ll be sorry, you’ll see.

The people who frequent the site see politics as a sort of psychotherapy, and the emotional effluvia that runs through the postings and diaries is one of the most lachrymose spectacles imaginable, with all sorts of ostensible adults blubbering for someone to return them to the bliss of the Clinton years, almost universally described in terms otherwise reserved for the unique experience of the womb–warm, nourishing, safe, and with the screams of mommy’s victims muted by walls of flesh. The metaphor unfortunately breaks down, but you get the picture.

people are missing how widespread is the pushed theme that The Promised Land is but a vote away………………

86. marisacat - 16 October 2007

May I say I don’t yearn for Hillary’s womb. Not even knowing Bill was near there. LOL…

But it works and will work for millions of Democrats.

87. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

well, the idea seems to be spreading:

Stop Playing Their Game
Time to Boycott Voting

After many years of political disappointment, more progressives, liberals and conservatives — and certainly moderates and independents — know in their hearts that voting for Democrats or Republicans is a waste. Just imagine if voter turnout was cut to 25 percent or less! Let the whole world see Americans boycotting a broken and corrupt political system and rejecting what has become a delusional democracy. To keep voting in an unjust political system makes us willing political slaves that the rich and powerful elites exploit.

Just leaving the major parties is not good enough and, besides, most Americans are not party members. We need a bolder strategy. We must humiliate the political elites in both major parties and the corporate interests that support both of them. We can send a shock wave throughout the political establishment by not voting in the 2008 presidential election.

Stop playing THEIR game. Take back control. Take back YOUR nation. Time to boycott voting. This strategy is consistent with the thinking of Gandhi and King: peaceful resistance to political tyranny that can bring the corrupt system to its knees. Ultimately, the most effective protest is through civil disobedience — to visibly and stubbornly refuse to respect what has become a corrupt, untrustworthy system. Before it can be fixed it must be deconstructed and then rebuilt. Taxation with MISrepresentation means we need a Second American Revolution; it must begin — not with violent action — but with massive withdrawal by citizens that have seen the light. We have a good head start with about half of eligible voters already so turned off that they don’t vote. Obviously that has not been sufficient to change the system.

88. marisacat - 16 October 2007

This is the close of the Lenin’s Tomb review of Faludi book (linked up at comment 81) — and so true

Serious efforts to discover the full range of real public reactions to 9/11 found that they did not conform to the stale categories imposed on them. Quite the contrary: the sudden sense of vulnerability humanised people, and erased the distinction between (masculine) heroes and (feminine) victims.

But these were not the stories told by Hollywood, or by Fox News, or by CNN or the New York Times. And that means that the stories that were told about men and women in the last six years have been important to the selling of the ‘war on terror’. The truth was too toxic.

89. Marie - 16 October 2007

Marisa #85 – re: IOZ – I weighed in on that ridiculous dKos diary by linking to one of IOZ’s prior pieces. Needless to say my comment wasn’t welcomed.

Re: America totally gay – pathetic that I didn’t connect the last dot after noting how totally gay the Bush/Cheney admin is.

90. StupidAsshole - 16 October 2007

Damn! I didn’t realize how addicted I was to this blog until comments closed for a few days.

Welcome back!

91. marisacat - 16 October 2007


Marie… LOL…

The latest Theme o’Day is that Dkos is “going down”… I happen not to buy it. Hard to kill a tool off, becasue it never mattered that it was up OR down.

People forget that winger money is behind the DLC (From and Reed) and NDN (Rosenberg et al.) and Kos/Blahgs/aligned box car sites is/are the best online rep for that endless push to the right.


SA — 90

why thanks… 8)

92. Hair Club for Men - 16 October 2007

So did Keith Moon/Dkosser have a paranoid attack in Central Park and beat up Randi Rhodes or not?

93. marisacat - 16 October 2007


hard to say on Randi. Something happened.. we know that much.

The one person not talking publicly (apparently) is RR…

94. Hair Club for Men - 16 October 2007

Moon must read this place obsessively. As soon as I posted about him he found me out on PFF.

95. marisacat - 16 October 2007

moonnoomdkosser.. whoever else he is. I can’t remember what people said about him anymore.

LOL one more programmer I bet.


96. marisacat - 16 October 2007

Lenin’t Tomb on Come Back Taliban All is Forgiven… My short title for it, Cosy, Still…


and a good swift appraisal of political moves in Germany, at the close of the analysis of the Guardian article on Afghanistan….

97. ms_xeno - 16 October 2007

Hooray for the den of iniquity re-opening, even at reduced hours !! 😉

Anyone for pizza ?

98. Miss Devore - 16 October 2007

97-artichokes and olives.

99. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007
100. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

The New Inequality

Take the legal profession: In 1972, the top corporate law firms in Manhattan paid their newly-minted lawyers $16,000, the federal government paid theirs $13,300, and Legal Aid paid $12,500. Today, the corporate firms pay their new hires four times as much as the government and non-profit sector pays theirs. As the latest figures show, there are tons of jobs for new lawyers that pay $35,000 and tons that pay $135,000 and precious few in between. The same is true of pay gaps between professions: in 1970, starting teachers in New York made just $2,000 less than those Wall Street lawyers; now they make $100,000 less. So when we talk about the polarization of the class structure we aren’t talking, as conservatives would have you believe, about college educated people pulling away from high school drop-outs or talented, hard workers being rewarded while dopey slackers fall behind. We’re talking about the corporate class—who often have the same educational credentials as many public servants and creative types—pulling away from everyone else.

When it comes to the new pay gaps, I’m much more interested in the stick than the carrot. Someone whose overweening ambition in life has always been to drive a Lamborghini will surely go into whatever career pays the most. The people I’m concerned with are those who have other goals which become less and less viable when they bump up against the invisible fist of the new inequality.

Well, then, what’s the stick? The rising sticker price on the American Dream. As the rich have pulled away from everyone else, certain markets for public goods have been distorted. Consider college: the US, unlike other developed democracies, uses market pricing for higher education. And with the rise of a new economic overclass, the market will now bear more than ever, thus tuition at top private colleges has tripled in real dollars in a generation. And the New Right has successfully instituted tuition at once-free public colleges like UC Berkeley and City College of New York.

The new math changes career decisions. In 1980, a graduate of the University of Chicago who opted to stay on the South Side and teach in an inner-city school would have earned two-and-a-half times her senior year tuition. Today, such a student’s salary would be almost even with her senior year tuition, to say nothing of rising debt loads. This is bad not just for the student who wants to serve but for a nation that needs the best and brightest to serve, as is painfully obvious from the state of our schools not to mention federal incompetence in 9/11 (FBI), the Iraq War (CIA), and Hurricane Katrina (FEMA).

101. ms_xeno - 16 October 2007

[slips a slice of pie to MissD.]

Kalamata okay ?

IRL, the pizza is still only a concept. But I think I’ll bail on work for tonight. It’s been an unrelenting nightmare all day and I’ve had quite enough.

Still slated to watch Al Nobel’s movie tonight, after much stalling. I’m glad I have almost a full bottle of bourbon in the house, along with a couple of bottles of good stout.

102. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 October 2007

framing & being out

However, the latest rounds of commentary got me thinking about framing and being out. Of course, “framing” critiques can be seen as just more movement in-fighting. “Welcome to The Movement! Watch out for friendly fire.” Framing advocates don’t mean it in that way, of course. They’re honestly talking about framing as a way to get people to strategize and coordinate.

But even this kind intention is really an attempt to corral and control the message. There’s no question that this kind of strategic thinking is useful in tight, targeted, PR campaigns from a single organization with a relatively discrete, unified message to convey. Like the Republican Party for the last few years for instance.

But in a movement it doesn’t work, and First Amendment and information theories help tell us why. A social movement is a big, unwieldy, mass of many thoughts and voices, largely tending in the same direction as a crowd but with many ebbs and flows and individual eddies and various tendencies in this or that way. The sum total of the movement ends up being determined by a “wisdom of the crowd” kind of way.

“Framing” is an attempt to distill those mass voices into a single voice. It’s top-down, PR professional driven. It’s the opposite of bottom-up, grassroots, wisdom of the crowds. It’s the opposite of the information marketplace — that First Amendment theory that proposes that the best solution to bad information is not censorship, but more information. In a marketplace filled with good and bad information, all accessible, over time the good information floats to the top. Through the wisdom of crowds, so long as there is no censorship (a market failure in the information marketplace).

So when I hear folks advocating framing, I think: They’re spending a lot of time on tactics and advising the movement, which is their choice. But it would be better to just encourage more folks to speak their piece, no matter what they have to say. The more people who are out about being an atheist — whether they’re angry like Greta Christina, or accommodationist like Chris Mooney — the better. Don’t strategize. Just speak. Tell your story. As the Christians say, Witness.

More speech about everything, especially dissenting speech.

103. BooHooHooMan - 16 October 2007

101 Ms xee – whatever ya do take an intermission and come online about 2/3 o’ the way through the bourbon, boilermakers, and stout ..😀

104. Miss Devore - 16 October 2007

{waves to BHHM}

105. ms_xeno - 16 October 2007

Okay, I’m back. Have to say: A very mediocre movie, all around. I mean, couldn’t somebody at least have explained to Al during production that the whole “boiled frog” schtick is a fucking urban legend?


[passes BHHM the bottle of Old Fro– er, Old Crow.]

Oh, and Mcat, my money is on antihegemonic as the PFF poster most likely to be a plant. I dunno’. Her style just seem really, really stilted and prefab.

106. marisacat - 16 October 2007

think auntie hege is louisianagirl/pointecoupeedemocrat.

And whoever else.

Seems to be a garden over there…


107. ms_xeno - 16 October 2007

I tried to get a job as a plant, but they tell me that my typing style is too distinctive. Too many spaces after the punctuation marks. :/

108. BooHooHooMan - 16 October 2007

Re Mcat’s #70, .My take on
Putin’s Fuck You, Cheney – Da Vladsta Wants Paid

Seems to me the Kremlin, in rich turnabout as fair play: the Kremlin sees the onion skin thin paper tiger our ground forces are in the region. A backdoor pledge for field arms and Russian intelligence for Tehren in the event of any US incursion in Iran and the Shia could all but incinerate our ground forces in Iraq.

There is little downside for them. Germany, particularly, needs their [Russian] Oil.

From DOE

Destinations of Russian Oil Exports
During 2006, Russia exported almost 4 million bbl/d of crude oil, and over 2 million bbl/d (102 million tonnes) of oil products. Roughly 1.3 million bbl/d were exported via the Druzhba pipeline to Belarus, Ukraine, Germany, Poland, and other destinations in Central and Eastern Europe (including Hungary, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic),…
Oil Product Exports and Balance
Most of Russia’s product exports consist of fuel oil and diesel fuel , which are used for heating in European countries and, on a small scale, in the United States. Russian oil exports to the U.S. have almost doubled since 2004, rising to almost 500,000 bbl/d of crude oil and products. Increases in product exports can be attributed to political pressures to maintain refinery operations and higher international oil product prices.

And Like Vladimir, Mahmoud has more than a few short and curlies in his grasp:

Europe Japan,France, Italy, China, and India depend critically on Iranian Exports. From WaPo 2006:
[Dated citation, but the strategy remains..]

..In recent years, Iran has shifted its oil exports away from the West. It sells substantial amounts to China and India, though U.S. allies such as Japan, Italy and France are still the major buyers. None is sold to the United States because of sanctions dating to the 1979 hostage crisis. All oil is fungible and even selected export cuts will affect market prices regardless of the customer; the symbolism of hurting Japan, China and India to retaliate against sanctions imposed by the United States and its allies would be fuzzy.

So far, Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad seems to be banking on the oil weapon even as European countries try to avoid testing it. On Wednesday, he rejected a potential European offer of incentives, including a light-water nuclear reactor, to give up uranium enrichment. “Do you think you are dealing with a 4-year-old child to whom you can give walnuts and chocolates and get gold from him?” Ahmadinejad told thousands of people in central Iran.

The reason Iran has any leverage is the change in the world oil balance. As recently as four years ago, the world had 7 million barrels a day of spare oil production capacity, but today that cushion between supply and demand is smaller than Iran’s 2.5 million barrels a day of exports. Losing Iran’s exports would spell disaster, with soaring prices and limited supplies.

LOL. The Moshpit of the Gangster State Thugs…just seein who can
get a grip on the religious, well oiled men from NoHomoLand….
Almost sounds like domestic politics here…..

I still think Cheney is going to cruise missile oil up above a $100 a barrel… Cheney would sell anybody down the river, so I think The Machiavelli on Crack move would be to engineer a limited incident :

*In which Russia gets to squeeze Europe over the winter
*Tehran gets the revenues with either a symbolic victory as the US declares limited objectives met perhaps with some negotiation on Nuke Prolif …
* The Cheney Task Force Cabal gets its money of course, while plopping the mess in Hillary’s Lap probably with a classified letter of notification sent in advance….God wouldn’t you love to be Rubin or one of the select, discreet Clintonites clued in the morning before the markets open?….
* All the while pandering to the flag wavers, the Holy Landers, the nuke em crowd —setting up a vow to be even more hawkish down the road….

109. marisacat - 17 October 2007

hmm mmm ………… From The Note’s Sneak Peak:

The campaign of a Republican presidential rival is circulating this video of the former New York mayor saying: “I’m a Republican mayor, but I’m really not” while appearing on Charlie Rose in 1996 during the GOP’s national convention.

GIULIANI: “Well, I’m a Republican mayor, but I’m really not. I’m the mayor of New York City. I ran as a Republican, I ran as a Liberal — which really confuses all kinds of people — and I ran as an Independent, as part of the Independent Party, which actually is now the party that’s supporting Ross Perot. So I ran a fusion candidacy, like my predecessor Fiorello LaGuardia. So I’m not the most partisan of Republicans.”

110. BooHooHooMan - 17 October 2007



Support Wanes in House for Genocide Vote

The Turkish government has said House passage of the resolution would prompt it to reconsider its ties to the United States, including logistical support for the Iraq war.


Mr. Gephardt, a senior counsel at the law firm of DLA Piper who retired from Congress in 2005, began working for Turkey in March under a yearlong contract worth $1.2 million. He has been criticized by Armenian-Americans because he previously supported Armenia and co-sponsored an earlier genocide resolution.

111. marisacat - 17 October 2007

hmm mmm

Little Miss Genocide, Samantha Power is on with CRose. Selling Obama. LOL pretty sure she and Michelle butt heads. At the least.

She jsut loves Sarko and Kouchner, hmm all that strength. “France is now online”… Never met a “humanitarian intervention” they did not like. She says.

But we ”need Obama to end Iraq”.

Oh yeah right. She should wear a pair of pistols.

112. marisacat - 17 October 2007

There si a second article at the Times… all about Bob Livingston, formerly in Congress from Louseyana.

Rather detailed, which the NYT can do when it wants…

He is the lobbyist with the mostest for Turkey.

113. BooHooHooMan - 17 October 2007

Fuck Gephardt. Fuck Murtha. Fuck Pelosi. Fuck em all.

Oh and fuck Steve Clemons —came across HIS slop Looking for a link on that Rudy /Rose clip on (ABC) Note Went to Clemons Wash Note instead….. Clemon’ s recent posts gushing on one hand about Stoller’s slop then Michael Mustos all over himself about an oh so exclusive party at Bloomburg’s Margaret Carlson such shitty chilled pumpkin soup all of it…..I’m out after a good barf….Sorry for all of the upchucking….out..

114. marisacat - 17 October 2007

Mark Penn, Hillary’s DLC pollster followed ‘Powers for Obama’ slobber.

He slobbered, she slobbered.

the country is bathed in a drooly vaseline.

Oh they will swear it is not a sex agent…

hmm. Don’t slip and fall in that slobber. Might catch something…

115. StupidAsshole - 17 October 2007

Re 111: Here’s an article that summarizes nicely everything I detest about Samantha Power:


116. marisacat - 17 October 2007

Clemon si a rightie. I watched him waver a bit, take some chances in 2003.. but he pulled way back when Kerry caved. Veered right, and everyone tells him how wonderful he is…

Clemons used to keep some of his longer and older essays to the left side column. Not sure they are still htere…………. I read thru them all at one point.

Snide… and VERY snide about the WTO protests.

IIRC his father was CIA.

117. marisacat - 17 October 2007

thanks SA for the link…

yes I have disliked her for years. obama hired her immediately he got ot DC.

118. marisacat - 17 October 2007

Fool me once… 😉

When Sen. Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign last month mailed 250 checks to refund contributions to donors associated with jailed fund-raiser Norman Hsu, the campaign said it was open to having them contribute again directly.

As of the end of September, only 10 had decided to do so, according to the campaign’s most recent campaign-finance filings.

“These are not individuals we’re soliciting,” said Howard Wolfson, a spokesman for the campaign. “If anyone chooses to give again, we will scrutinize their donations very carefully.”

Mrs. Clinton announced the campaign’s intentions to accept more donations from Mr. Hsu’s contributors on a conference call shortly after the revelations about Mr. Hsu’s past.

119. ms_xeno - 17 October 2007

Must a perfectly good soup be denigrated for the scoring of political points against one’s rivals ? Shame on you both. I am sure that Power would never wear white boots after Labor Day when she was walking through puddles of human blood.

120. JJB - 17 October 2007

The Turks slow-motion move against Iraqi Kurdistan continues:

Turkish MPs back attacks in Iraq

Turkey’s parliament has given permission for the government to launch military operations into Iraq in pursuit of Kurdish rebels.
The vote was taken in defiance of pressure from the US and Iraq, which have called on Turkey for restraint.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said the motion does not mean a military operation is imminent.

But he said Turkey needed to be able to respond to a recent rise in bomb attacks blamed on PKK rebels from Iraq.

Turkish MPs backed him overwhelmingly, by 507 votes to 19.

As the vote was being counted, President George W Bush strongly urged America’s Turkish ally not to carry out the threatened action.

He said Washington was “making it clear to Turkey it is not in their interest to send more troops in… there is a better way to deal with the issue”.

I don’t believe Turkey offcially admits to having any troops in Iraq (though in fact they do), so Bush’s statement seems to be yet one more verbal blunder. And as I look at this NY Times story, I see Boy George elaborating: “‘We are making it very clear to Turkey that we don’t think it is in their interests to send troops into Iraq,’ he said at a news conference. ‘Actually, they have troops already stationed in Iraq,’ he added. ‘We don’t think it’s in their interests to send more troops in.'”

Reminds me of how Reagan started babbling about something he’d been told by the CIA’s Nicaraguan station chief during one of the 1984 debates.

Also in the NYT is this story about the Armenian Genocide Resolution losing sponsors. It mentions that there are fears in official DC circles that the Turks won’t simply go after the PKK in Iraqi Kurdistan, but will head for Kirkuk, using the excuse that they’re protecting the area’s substantial Turkman population. Included are these words of courage from the always forthright John Murtha:

This happened a long time ago and I don’t know whether it was a massacre or a genocide, that is beside the point,” said Representative John P. Murtha, the Pennsylvania Democrat who is urging Ms. Pelosi to keep the resolution from the floor. “The point is, we have to deal with today’s world.”

A couple of days ago, an acquaintance told me how an uncle of his, who’d been in the Marines during the Korean War, went to collect a small group of Chinese prisoners from a Turkish unit. When he got to their location, he was horrified to discover that they were all dead — the Turkish soldiers had crucified them. Not too hard to imagine the sort of things that will happen if this invasion takes place.

121. Marie - 17 October 2007

Not too hard to imagine the sort of things that will happen if this invasion takes place. As compared with what? The US invasion? We just do more of our killing in an antiseptic form from 30,000 feet in the air.

Have been saying for years that the US attachment to the Kurds would be problematical. They have been a thorn in the side of three countries, and the US has now fed them delusions of grandeur.

Is it so difficult to understand why Turkey is resistant to the genocide label for their slaughter and relocation of the Armenians? No different than labeling what this country did to the native Americans and African Americans. Or Belgium did in the Congo. All were genocides. The most thorough was probably the one we did to native tribes in this country because many of them were fully wiped out. At this time, Congress should deal with our ongoing destruction of Iraq. Stop it. The whole world needs to engage in a “peace and reconciliation” process. Selective application of labeling this or that massacre as genocide is hypocritical.

122. Miss Devore - 17 October 2007

bush made war fashionable again among world leaders. prepare for more “unthinkables”

I just went to Walgreen’s to buy some cigs and the guy in front of me in line had a prosthetic leg, and I immediately thought “had he been to Iraq?”

123. JJB - 17 October 2007

Is it so difficult to understand why Turkey is resistant to the genocide label for their slaughter and relocation of the Armenians?

Yes, frankly.

I’m on Harold Pinter’s side in this one. Turkey is a military dictatorship with the trappings of democracy, and has — let’s not mince words — gleefully conducted genocidal campaigns against the Anatolian Greeks, Kurds, and Armenians during the last century. To so much as mention the Armenian genocide will get you a prison sentence in Turkey.

If you want to use other genocidal obscenties perpetrated by other countries to minimize the horror of Turkish ones past, present, and future, go ahead. My feeling is they should all be condemned, and don’t feel the need to dictate a laundry list every time I discuss it.

124. JJB - 17 October 2007

Speaking of obscene behavior and the horrifying consequences bound to result from such, here is Boy George’s response to the Slavic Al Capone’s “Keep Your Hands Off Iran” statement from yesterday:

President Bush said today that he believed Russia still wanted to stop Iran from developing a nuclear weapon. But ratcheting up his own rhetoric, the president warned that for Tehran to possess such a weapon raised the risk of a “World War III.”

That comment, made during a far-ranging 45-minute news conference, came as reporters probed for the president’s reaction to a warning on Tuesday by President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia against any military strikes on Iran to halt the nuclear work that it has continued in defiance of much of the world. Iran contends that its nuclear program is purely peaceful.

“If Iran had a nuclear weapon, it’d be a dangerous threat to world peace,” Mr. Bush said. “So I told people that if you’re interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon.”

“I take the threat of Iran with a nuclear weapon very seriously,” he said.

The United States has said it is pursuing a diplomatic approach to Iran, including the threat of a new round of United Nations sanctions, but it has refused to rule out military action to halt Iran’s nuclear program.

But in Tehran on Tuesday, Mr. Putin said, “Not only should we reject the use of force, but also the mention of force as a possibility.”

Mr. Bush, asked by a reporter today about photos that showed a seemingly cordial meeting in Tehran of Mr. Putin and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran, said he was reluctant to read too much into photographs and wanted to hear Mr. Putin’s own “readout” of the meeting.

Proposed new United Nation sanctions, pressed in particular by the United States and France, have so far been blocked by Russia, which holds a veto on the Security Council and favors continued dialogue with Tehran.

But Mr. Putin has gone further, questioning what evidence the Americans and French have for asserting that Iran intends to make nuclear weapons.

BTW, I’m sure Mr. Ahmadinejad very forcefully lectured Putin on his Chechnyan policies, and the absence of any mention of this is certainly due to the MSM simply attempting to paint him in the worst possible light as part of the lead up to our attack on Iran.

And coming from someone as opposed to stem cell research as Bush is, this quote is rather bizarre: “The president nonetheless acknowledged American frustrations at trying to influence Russia. ‘In terms of whether or not it’s possible to reprogram the kind of basic Russian DNA, which is a centralized authority,’ Mr. Bush said, ‘that’s hard to do.’”

125. Miss Devore - 17 October 2007

That’s why Jeralyn’s got the Blues:

Buy Me a Drink Day
By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 11:19:03 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)

It’s only 10:00 a.m. here so I mean this tongue in cheek, but I could use a drink.

Now that my taxes are done and filed, I see that I spent $6,000.00 on TalkLeft last year in design, troubleshooting, hosting and subscription fees.

No reader has contributed to the site since July. Not one of the groups, tv networks or news magazines which send me mass emails every day advocating their causes and shows has ever sent a dime.”

I bet she’s also smarting that her personal tethered donkeytale (aravia) is neglecting her for nuttydogma’s site.

Big Toot’s latest political action cry:

Here’s my take – let’s act as if it is a real promise from Nancy Pelosi. Let’s praise and cheer her for standing up. Let’s tell her we have her back on this.

Why? Because it has a better chance of becoming true if we react to it in that way. And that is all that matters.”


and the comet will take us away, too.

126. Marie - 17 October 2007

JJB #123 – not minimizing the brutality of the Turkish government or any other. Merely pointing out that to do so selectively, and fail even acknowledge the brutality of one’s own government, is a very bad foreign policy. That’s exactly what our government did to rationalize the invasion of Iraq. What it’s attempting to do wrt Iran. There is no shortage of countries that fail to honor human rights and torture their citizens. As Robert Fisk in “The Great War for Civilisation” points out, the Armenian genocide was reported in real time. Wilson even attempted to award the Armenians a republic which the Turks and Bolsheviks destroyed. Then there this: The Kurds, who had been among the cruellest perpetrators of the Armenian genocide… (p. 332) Just saying that it’s not as simple and straightforward as it’s being made out to be — genocide/holocaust without question — and the Turks should be held accountable but not while other countries are not held to the same standard. In Vietnam and Iraq alone, the US has killed at least twice as many people as the Turks did (yes, I know as a percentage of the total population, our acts weren’t as genocidal, but in what universe is it less horrific to kill 3 million people instead of 1 to one and a half million?

127. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Vietnam and Iraq alone, the US has killed at least twice as many people as the Turks

I am no slouch when it comes to bashing the country of my birth, but, as horrible as Vietnam and Iraq were, the purprose of both was simple imperialism, not the destruction of entire peoples.

What the Turks did to the Armenians in the old Ottoman Empire was clear, destroy the entire Christian population of Turkey and take their land.

Iraq is getting there. I think “we” purposively destroyed the infastructure of the country and let nature take its course.

Vietnam was as bad but if the people who destroyed the Armenians in 1915 had had nukes, they just would have used them on Vietnam. “We” didn’t.

The Israelis are committing genocide in slow motion in Gaza. But it’s still slow motion.

Ironically, and it shows just what hypocrites the right are in this country, the two worse things a Muslim country’s ever done (Turkey and Indonesia in East Timor) are completely ignored, even covered up, because their governments are allies.

You want “Islamofascism”, fascism in Islamic countries, Enver Pasha and Suharto qualify. Yet you’ll never hear it from the LGF crowd or from Bush.

128. Miss Devore - 17 October 2007

observe all the surgery it took for a woman to become squeaker of the House.

once, in a clothing store, where I looked but never purchased, in Santa Barbara, there was this woman from LA (established by eavesdropping on her conversation) that was so altered she looked like an entirely different species-fake boobs and hair and a 17 inch waist. and there’s that whole set of the southern climes that produces these brown alligators with platinum hair. If you had to create a pictorial shorthand for divorcee, they’d be the candidates.

129. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Decent headfake by Obama but the question isn’t “did I think the war was right or wrong”.

It’s “do you want to immediately end the occupation of Iraq”.

So far I haven’t heard that from Obama. All I’ve heard is that he wants 100,000 more troops.

130. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Turkey is a military dictatorship with the trappings of democracy, and has — let’s not mince words — gleefully conducted genocidal campaigns against the Anatolian Greeks, Kurds, and Armenians during the last century.

Last century?

In the 1990s the typical Turkish Kurd wanted to live under that mythical benevolent dicator Saddam. Iraq must have looked like the promised land. Get gassed a few times in the 80s than live under the protection of US air power? Where do I sign up?

131. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

What a minute. The 90s was the last century.


132. marisacat - 17 October 2007

just let

two out of moderation, JJB and Miss D…..


Off to check spam file.

133. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Speaking of Samantha Power, she’s managed to get every single mainstream non political glossy magazine writer in her roladex.

If you only read explicitly political magazines you have no idea of the number of interviews she’s been able to score with well-intentioned people at magazines like GQ or Jane of Vogue or probably Popular Mechanics.

Seriously, even time I go to the gym too lazy to run on the treadmill and want to sit on an exercise bike and read a magazine instead I see some glossy magazine writer worshipping at the feet of Ms. Power and talking up her theories of genocide and her connection to the Obama campaign.

I guess it makes sense. Who’d you rather have lunch with, John McCain and Hitchens or Power and Obama. And I have to admit they’ve done their publicity work.

134. marisacat - 17 October 2007

I have been horrified by S Powers from the get go. She always seemed the white academic apologist- and WORSE, the aspiring manufacturer of war.

They make a tidy pair, she and Obama. SHe had her ‘earnest’ self out last night and it was gagworthy.

She did pant a bit I thought tho for Kouchi in France.

135. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

They make a tidy pair, she and Obama. SHe had her ‘earnest’ self out last night and it was gagworthy.

And I keep coming back to Obama’s statement that he wants to expand the military by 100,000 troops.

It’s transparent. Strike an anti-war pose against Hillary without actually committing yourself to ending the occupation of Iraq. Talk about expanding the military by 100,000 people (and how they’re going to do that without a draft is baffling). Talk up “saving Darfur” in order to relegitimizing American interventionism.

Stay in Iraq then use those 100,000 extra troops to go after Venezuala or Iran.

Of course he’s not going to win the nomination this time.

136. Revisionist - 17 October 2007


I missed the Brouhahahaha earlier this summer when comments were closed because I didnt have an inet connection. I would only get to read shit a couple of times a week at the library. I thought Mcat did some of the best stuff when she was just blogging and not blogmistressing. Very notciable when you only have 30 minutes to see what the fuck is happening in the world

137. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Speaking of annoying liberal intellectuals, anybody hear Krugman on Democracy Now.

It’s so clear what’s happening when you listen to him. He really believes the right is in a death spiral and the Democrats are going to get back into the White House in 2008.

So (and he doesn’t come right out with this) shut up on Iraq and the Patriot Act and don’t ruin all those real Kewl social programs we have planned for you.

Amy Goodman and Juan Gonzelez let him of easy too.

138. marisacat - 17 October 2007

Of course he’s not going to win the nomination this time.
— HC

right, that is the problem, he’s got 20 years.

139. marisacat - 17 October 2007


just starting the transcript from Krugman appearance. Madman mentioned seeing him on Maher last week, with Tucker. And Krugman let Tucker walk all over him.

It gets so old.

As soon as it was clear a few years ago he was nothing more than a weak mouthpiece for the party, LOL on my personal shit list.

140. Miss Devore - 17 October 2007

Mcat-I think your personal shitlist would shame Proust. not that it’s a bad thing.

141. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Krugman is AWFUL in interviews. Even on Democracy Now in an incredibly friendly atmosphere he still wheezed and sighed and whined his way through the whole thing.

FWIW, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Tucker Carlson ambush the guy from Media Matters a few weeks ago about Media Matters being a Democratic shill organization.

Does that make me a bad person?

142. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

As soon as it was clear a few years ago he was nothing more than a weak mouthpiece for the party,

He actually lectured Juan Gonzalez on the perfect being the enemy of the good.

And he recommended Digby (although I can’t quite remember if it was in print or during the interview).

Look through the lib dem blogs today at all of the “right is dying and it’s inevitable posts.

143. marisacat - 17 October 2007


yes… everyone has mixed feelings about what I should do.

Pity is I like the threads. If I did not, it would be easy to drop them.

And of course Boyz always watching closely… so clear their proprietary intent if one ever posted at Dkos but, lawdy Mz Scarlet, consider one’s self independent.

Blogging is loaded iwth amusements.

144. Marie - 17 October 2007

HC #133 lunch with, John McCain and Hitchens or Power and Obama.

Shouldn’t that be John McCain and
(While McCain does not have an official team, he has said publicly that he consults with) Henry Kissinger, Brent Scowcroft, Robert Kagan, George Schultz, Lawrence Eagleburger, William Kristol and Robert Zoellick. And lest we forget, lunch with Hillary and Albright?

Re: Turks and Armenians – not sure anyone but the Turks (and Kurds and Bolshviks?) deny the genocide. Why Armenians and why now and not the more recent slaughter in East Timor? Simple, certain members of Congress have a Christian Armenian constituency. So, let’s cut that crap that Congress with an 11% approval rating is taking this up at this time because of some burning ethical issue that needs resolution now.

HC #127 …if the people who destroyed the Armenians in 1915 had had nukes, they just would have used them on Vietnam. “We” didn’t. Forget the “we” – if the people that wiped out the native populations in this country had had nukes, they would have used them. If the Pentagon had had its way, the US would have used nukes in Korea and Vietnam. It was no joke in ’64 that Goldwater supporters did advocate nuking Vietnam. So, let’s not pat ourselves on the back too much or postulate something about another country that can never be known.

145. marisacat - 17 October 2007

LOL The right is not dying. As anyone sane knows. Such clear targetted propaganda for the little zoo liberals.

It, the right, is funding BOTH sides of the BlagSnotosphere. BlahgLouts, BlahgSnarls and so on.
Blahgheelers as Madman calls them.

Just like the right funds DLC and NDN.

It could nto be more transparent.

146. marisacat - 17 October 2007


Initially I was glad when Raines brought him on at the NYT. Esp as a focus for him is the endless roll of boom and bust in economics.

But soon clear, just an academic mouth, a marrionette.

147. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Re: Turks and Armenians – not sure anyone but the Turks (and Kurds and Bolshviks?) deny the genocide.

Actually Ellie Wiesel has worked for years to keep the Armenian genocide out of history in order not to risk Israel’s alliance with Turkey. Robert Fitch writes extensively on it in “The Great War for Civilization”.

Why Armenians and why now and not the more recent slaughter in East Timor?

The slaughter in East Timor was actually halted by activists in the west in the mid 90s. Morganthau (the American ambassador) wrote pretty eloquently about the Armenian genocide it in the NY Times while it was going on but there was no movement back home to stop it (and the US wouldn’t have been able to do it anyway).

Simple, certain members of Congress have a Christian Armenian constituency.

And the fact that their congress critters responded to their entirely legitimate and democratic input was overruled by Bush and the foreign policy establishment.

If the Pentagon had had its way, the US would have used nukes in Korea and Vietnam.

And Nixon wanted to in 1970 but the size of the anti-war protests stopped him.

East Timor was a great example of the American elite doing something good and the anti-Vietnam war movement the American mass doing something good.

There’s no need to bash that.

I think they sold the democratic forces in Turkey down the river by cancelling this resolution. The Turkish military has been under pressure by the EU for years and now they’ve been let off the hook.

148. marisacat - 17 October 2007


LOL I cannot stand Brock. part of that endless drift of R to the so called Dem side.

The socalled Dem Party is a nearly wholly owned subsidiary. Day in day out, I think the workings of politics cuts along idealogical rather than party lines.

And everyone for himherself. And do nothing for the people. Dems are allowed some rhetoric w/r/t “the peeeepuhl” as their so called base is still back a few decades.

The merge with and acquiesence to Arnold out here is the loud signal. Absolutely disgusting.

I think our personal era is the complete merging of the parties. A strange mix of people at the top with backers and bases of power.

About it.

149. ms_xeno - 17 October 2007

Yes, HC, you are bad. Very bad.

But I personally am just fine with that. Here, have some tangerines. It’s all I had time to pack for lunch today.

150. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

LOL I cannot stand Brock. part of that endless drift of R to the so called Dem side.

Krugman actually was going on about that for awhile. He sighed and wheezed and figited through the whole thing and acted concerned about the fact that so many big investment bankers were donors to the Democratic Party but there was also a vague sense that he was happy that half the Bush pioneers from 2004 are now Democrats.

151. Miss Devore - 17 October 2007

Arnold’s milking the green thing, so we can all forget he used his Hummer to get elected in the first place. And the sickening thing is he has Hollywood Dems captured in mutual masturbation.

152. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Who is this idiot on the Tucker Carlson show talking about how “liberals and feminists” came up with the idea that Civil Rights legislation lost the South for the Democrats?

Um, it was Lyndon Johnson who said that..

153. marisacat - 17 October 2007

I thinl but for a few pockets here and there, we have become Florida.

Not sure people noticed in the Great BrouHahahaha… but the lead atty for Bush in Bush v Gore in Fl, Barry Richards, ws a Democrat.

Kind of sums it up. It seems to me that the time of the likes of Larry Tribe are long past – he has certainly outlived any chance for the SC, obviously. More an era of Boies (he and C Rose own a flat togehter in Paris, I guess they stagger their vistis), far slipperier. If that is a word, if not make it one, it defines the Democrats.

Slipperier than thou.

154. BooHooHooMan - 17 October 2007

Bush today talks back to Putin raises WWIII rhetoric—-

Bush evidently has had his nook-yuler testicles twisted a bit…
What a blithering fool we have speaking of World War III….

Tweety tonight was aghast about Bush’s off the cuff remarks – ( Bullshit BTW- a calculated money quote) Matthews said anyone knows WWIII rhetoric means nuclear ICBM exchange with Russia. The CW. How quaint. We have warheads and fissile material unnacounted for HERE and the Russians or anybody else would need to use rocket fuel for delivery? Laughable. My point is the Cold War notions of Armegeddon may play well in Peoria but massive nuclear exchange would be merciful compared to the infrastructure disruption and biowarfare that could be unleashed on our twinky asses.

Its all kabuki. TO THEM. Just as we have Fall Down Dems as part and parcel to the Unitary Government, since World War II, the elites in this country HAVE BENEFITTED from the “better luck next time, Rambo” shtick that leaves the tax paying working class pulverized economically and politically as a consequence….

…Constantly over booking fights, promoting others that needn’t be fought, all for a Payday..Never a personal engagement as the brain damage and death in the ring goes to others. Everything about these gigs are fully insured losses: the stampede to get out as the arena burns down all passed down, underwritten, and indemnified by the communities foolish enough to pay for their Coliseums….

155. BooHooHooMan - 17 October 2007

Oh and by this:

…Constantly over booking fights, promoting others that needn’t be fought, all for a Payday..Never a personal engagement as the brain damage and death in the ring goes to others. Everything about these gigs are fully insured losses: the stampede to get out as the arena burns down all passed down, underwritten, and indemnified by the communities foolish enough to pay for their Coliseums….

I Wasn’t talking about PFF Buhdydrama or Kos Media…..
LOL….In this instance

156. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Speaking of Putin, will someone please check John McCain into a nursing home.


Playing off Bush’s claim to have looked into Putin’s soul, McCain said this week: “I looked into Mr. Putin’s eyes and I saw three things: a K and a G and a B.” It was a reference to Putin’s career in his country’s intelligence agency.

Maybe these guys really do want to let the missiles fly with the Russians and bring on THE RAPTURE.

157. BooHooHooMan - 17 October 2007

I will refrain from building off Miss D’s comment# 151 which contained the words : “milking” “green thing” “Hummer” and “mutual masturbation.”

I am above it.

158. Miss Devore - 17 October 2007

Putin’s eyes-the new ouija board. Next: political phrenology.

159. BooHooHooMan - 17 October 2007

Next: political phrenology

Just leave the wandering hands on the camel camel out of this.

160. BooHooHooMan - 17 October 2007

I know I can say that again.

161. Marie - 17 October 2007

HC #147 And the fact that their congress critters responded to their entirely legitimate and democratic input…

Legitimate? Why do we have any ethnic group of Americans lobbying our government to act in the foreign arena on their special interests that have nothing to do with American interests? Is it okay for Iranian-Americans to pressure our government to take down the government of Iran? AIPAC, INC? How about the Hmong pushing to restore their rights in Laos? We could go on and on. We cannot and should not try to be some sort of international watchdog based on the interests of select groups. As we can’t possibly address every major issue of human rights abuse in the world, to act selectively only puts us in the same box that you’re all bitching about in regard to Powers.

Absent a single international standard that the world community is prepared to worth together in addressing human rights abuse when they surface, all we do is make things worse or anger one group or another. Does the left or anyone in the US bitch about the US refusal to join the UN peacekeepers in Bosnia in the early nineties when Sarajevo was under siege? Nope. Was the situation between Serbia and Kosovo worse? I have no idea. Did we get it backwards? Should we have stayed out entirely? I don’t know. Mostly we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

As for Elie Wiesel and Turkey, again, I don’t know. But I do know that he and others have a lot invested in the notion that only the Jews have experienced a holocaust and aren’t too keen on using the word “genocide” for the slaughter of any other ethnic group.

On East Timor – there were no governments, or even the Catholic Church, speaking out against the slaughter there. If “American elite” changed the dynamic there, good for them — but odd that they’ve not been similarly effective in stopping our own government from war and killing. As for Nixon and nukes in Vietnam, the anti-war activists weren’t strong enough to have stopped Nixon from doing anything. The rejection of Goldwater in ’64, a sense of the nation on the question of nukes, was a much stronger brake on Nixon than a bunch of anti-war people. Maybe the country turned a corner with the Cuban Missile Crisis – at least for those living in that era. We may have regressed since then and can only hope that if we have, that a majority are still opposed to the use of nukes. Unfortunately, there would not be much outrage if we dropped a few of those FOABs which are no less deadly than the two nukes we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

162. Miss Devore - 17 October 2007

BHHM-you are going to turn me into the kind of person who calls anon numbers from phone booths and asks the answerers if they will talk to me about camels.

163. Marie - 17 October 2007

HC #156 Maybe these guys really do want to let the missiles fly with the Russians and bring on THE RAPTURE. Naw, they aren’t suicidal – nor do they believe in the rapture. But they desperately miss the Cold War and really wanted to have the opportunity to win it in a hot war. They want an enemy that they think they understand and not one like those in the ME that befuddle them. Plus in their twisted world, if Russia weren’t around, they could kick ME butt and then take on the big Kahuna in China. Then the whole world would be ours, ours, ours.

164. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007


On the whole “genocide” thing …

Self-righteous pandering is wrong when politicians engage in empty kow-towing to former Batista toadies in S. FL (let alone continue a dangerous and unjust regime of sanctions). It’s wrong now.

They’re putting on this angry Punch and Judy show to pander and scoop up easy campaign donations, and perhaps nurse some anti-muslim prejudices as well.

This is not to say that the terrible crime done to the Armenians wasn’t a terrible crime, but as someone who is sick of seeing our domestic politics warped in terrible ways to service the outrage of Zionists and Cubans it would be hypocritical for me to be somehow think this one was good while those others I oppose aren’t.

Empty resolutions serve nothing. They are the political equivalent of condemning homosexuality from the pulpit then stopping for some hot rough trade at the Motel 6 on the way home, and you know it’s the politicians with the greased up latex-coated fists.

Moral suasion has to start at home, with one’s own house. Mote, eye, et cetera.

In a country which was grown in soil fertilized by indigenous and black flayed, torn flesh, tears and blood, we are no different now from the old Soviets wagging their fingers at US over our STILL-horribly neglected reservations.

Someone mentioned a global “truth and reconcilliation” movement. Here hear!!!

I’ll be moved by the US Congress when they pass a just settlement to the Indian Trust suit. I’ll be moved when we develop some way to make reparations for slavery. I’ll be moved when we stop illegally invading and occupying foreign counties, and when we stop slaughtering their inhabitants. I’ll be moved when we’re no longer the biggest arms dealers in the world. I’ll be moved when we’ve reformed our prison industrial complex, and when we’ve stopped the nigh-genocidal attack on the black male. I’ll be moved when our police forces aren’t unrestrained paramilitiaries, and I’ll be moved when we’ve stopped shamefully allowing children to go without food, shelter or healthcare. I’ll be moved when we reestablish habeas corpus, and when we’ve stopped torturing people, in our civilian, miltary and clandestine prisons.

We’ve no right to wag our fingers when it is our weapons, our petro-gluttony, our belligerant foreign policy that is responsible for so much hate and bloodshed.

We’ve no right, and should be ashamed that our political ruling class only talk about human rights when they can use it to score easy political points, when they treat it as though it’s something they can pick up and drop like the proverbial hot potato when they feel they can.

165. marisacat - 17 October 2007

well look at all the hoopla over the Dalai Lama. All for show, for politics, for international pressure against China.

Look good to some, bad to others.

And hey, he will stand iwth a global killer. No prob. Just hearing snips of his speech with Bush at his shoulder. Some scum about freedom.

Sick of them all.

The DL comes here a lot, hardly a novelty. Well in politicallly in SF too.

166. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007

exactly Mcat. Where are his strong statements about the lack of compassion shown by our gov’t to other human beings, both here and abroad? Why so thrilled to accept our blood-soaked medal?

Tired of pantomimes and fake activism and faux humanitarianism.

167. marisacat - 17 October 2007

and being “well in” in SF means well in with Diane Feinstein, the consort Blum – and The Shepherdess.

Congress honored the DL as well.

168. Marie - 17 October 2007

MitM #164 – thank you – you said it much better than I did. Saw the DL once, back before he began consorting so openly with killers. Can’t report that it was a moving experience or that I felt as if I were in the presence of an enlightened and spiritual being. If not for his title, it wouldn’t have been a memorable event.

169. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007

More overstepping of personal privacy and property in the name of security.

I will admit that THIS one little sentence made me smile:

Death Cab for Cutie fans may be waiting even longer for a long-promised album by guitarist Chris Walla.

I could wait forever, personally.

That being said, I hope he gets his hard drive back.

170. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007

Thanks Marie.

171. Marie - 17 October 2007

Marisa #153 – I remember Barry Richards at the time and a friend who had some inside information told be that he just went with the highest bidder. Litigator first and personal political positions way down on his list. It was absolutely the wrong sort of case for Boies – he needs lots of lead time. This was a gunslinger’s case.

172. BooHooHooMan - 17 October 2007

#162 –LOL Miss D. BHHM-you are going to turn me into the kind of person who calls anon numbers from phone booths and asks the answerers if they will talk to me about camels.

When I started out I worked off a script:

Psst, heghh– talk to me about camels, {and then you make a Chewbakka like moan sound randy, baby]

Most call recipients dig it.

173. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007

Numbers Tricks Mask Declining Wages and Rising Inequality

The real “middle” among American wage earners, after deductions for child support and, if you’re lucky, payments into a 401(k), is $30,881 a year. That’s the median wage – not the misleading average wage – meaning, half of employees make more than $30,881, and half make less. Not very impressive, is it? A family of four with one wage earner making $20,000 is officially in poverty in the United States, which is not very far away from the median wage of a little over $30,000. And we haven’t even talked about health care costs and the ever-rising price of housing.

At the same time, the number of millionaires is at a record high, nearing eight million, while the median American worker – the real middle class – makes about $15 dollars an hour, and dropping. No wonder the rich take such pains to scrub the language clean of a vocabulary that could explain how they are stealing the wealth of the nation and the world.

174. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007
175. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007

Face-Off: Airbrushing Accountability in the Terror War

Police have been accused of manipulating a photo of Jean Charles de Menezes so it could be compared to that of one of the 21/7 bomb plotters. The image had been “stretched and sized” to form a composite image of the Brazilian and Hussain Osman to show the jury, prosecutors told the Old Bailey.

176. Sabrina Ballerina - 17 October 2007

Welcome back, Marisa – l agree with SA re not realizing how much I appreciate this site …. hope you had a good weekend.

Someone mentioned a global “truth and reconcilliation” movement. Here hear!!!

Yes, the world needs something like that. And the last people to be pointing fingers anywhere right now, is this country with the ongoing horrors in Iraq and torture and rendition chugging along, uninterrupted as far as we know. The world must laugh when they hear Bush talk of human rights.

Re Turkey, nothing ever came of Abramoff/Hastert’s involvement with Turkey, bribes or whatever.

Speaking of Abramoff, the trial in Florida for the murder of his business associate (forgotten his name now) has received no coverage. I was trying to follow that for a while as it had many interesting connections beyond the murder itself. Don’t know if it was adjourned or went ahead.

Then, what happened to Hookergate? So many tied into that also. Not to mention where it led re why some in Congress supported the Iraq war in the first place.

A friend called me yesterday and said her brother had signed up to go to Iraq because he felt obligate, as he has been training soldiers who go there. He’s older and career military, (close to 40 I think). He has two children. I did not know what to say to her. She knows how I feel about all this.

177. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007
178. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

On East Timor – there were no governments, or even the Catholic Church, speaking out against the slaughter there. If “American elite” changed the dynamic there, good for them

By elite I mean Noam Chomsky and the intellectuals working with Feingold and Barney Frank. It’s reallyt the model of a relatively small, elite activist movement that was able to do a lot to affect American foreign policy.

Legitimate? Why do we have any ethnic group of Americans lobbying our government to act in the foreign arena on their special interests that have nothing to do with American interests?

Well, it really *is* in American interests to help the democratic forces in Turkey push their government into acknowledging what happened to the Armenians. It’s almost as much of a litmus test in Turkey as the Israel/Palestine issue is in the United States. But, in the United States, you get slimed for acknowledging the “Nakba”. And while percetion is carefully manipulated to keep most Americans in denial about the native Americans or about slavery, it’s not illegal to talk about either.

In Turkey, you can get put in jail or killed for acknowledging what happened to the Armenians. Look what happened. “We” supposedly went into Iraq to bring the Iraqis democracy. Now our presence in Iraq has derailed an issue that the EU and liberals in Turkey have been working on for the past two decades because Bush doesn’t want to piss off the Turkish military. The Armenians are also regularly excluded from Holocaust and genocide studies conferences because it’s in some peoples’ political interests to do so.

Robert Fisk is really the best source on all of it.


But now for the bright lights. A group of “righteous Turks” are challenging their government’s dishonest account of the 1915 genocide: Ahmet Insel, Baskin Oran, Halil Berktay, Hrant Dink, Ragip Zarakolu and others claim that the “democratic process” in Turkey wil “chip away at the darkness” and they seek help from Armenians in doing so. Yet even they will refer only to the 1915 “disaster”, the “tragedy”, and the “agony” of the Armenians. Dr Fatma Gocek of the University of Michigan is among the bravest of those Turkish-born academics who are fighting to confront the Ottoman Empire’s terror against the Armenians. Yet she, too, objects to the use of the word genocide – though she acknowledges its accuracy – on the grounds that it has become “politicised” and thus hinders research.

179. Miss Devore - 17 October 2007

177-thanks for the link. wish the paine and scruggs would drop by more often.

180. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

BTW, and just because I’d like to see the US Congress put pressure on the Turks doesn’t mean I don’t want to see other holocausts ignored.

For example, I’d love to see more Americans find out about how MacCarthur declined to prosecute the leaders of Unit 731 because he wanted to keep the research the Japanese did on the Chinese.


The Japanese are in heavy, heavy denial about what they did to the Chinese and this denial is a big part of what keeps them locked into their own authoritarian culture and politics.

Acknowleding it would liberate them as well.

181. marisacat - 17 October 2007

The Japanese are in heavy, heavy denial about what they did to the Chinese — HC

Yeah, SF Chinatown has never forgotten…


..doesn’t mean I don’t want to see other holocausts ignored… — HC

… don’t worry, it did nto seem that way…


182. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

I’m not sure why people I agree with on so many things have such a different view on this than I do.

This isn’t about Americans pompously lecturing another country about their own crimes. In fact, Americans have been pretty late getting into the issue. It’s been huge in Europe and among Turkish dissidents for years.

Maybe this resolution was heavy handed but it seems to me that the idea that it’s going to be blocked by American imperial interests in Iraq seems grotesque.

It’s almost as if we had blocked the Germans from coming to terms with the Holocaust because we needed their help in the Cold War.

That *did* happen to some extent but the Germans are really a model of a culture that did come to terms with its past.

183. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007
184. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007

We disagree b/c I know they are hypocritical enablers of murder, and they are doing this not for the right reasons, but for crass political gain, and as soon as the political calculation turns against them they will dump the Armenians like yesterday’s Congressional page.

Official American outrage is selective, and almost ALWAYS driven by some underlying calculation. This is not to say that there aren’t a few for whom this is a sincere cause, but most of them are so corrupt that it makes it makes even a good cause empty.

We should clean our own house first before we wag our fingers at others.

185. CSTAR - 17 October 2007

Gosh Madman, I’m having trouble keeping up with all your links.

Re #174: The article you link to refers to a french expert… I hope it’s not Alexis Debat.

In any case, I’d be very very surprised if the Iran attack doesn’t happen within the next year. But I’ve given up trying to predict it. Despite our being very much on alert for this event, I think when it happens and how it happens will catch us all by surprise.

186. Miss Devore - 17 October 2007

183-ugh. but one would have to distinguish between valuing motherhood per se and viewing mothers as Aryan spawners.

187. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Official American outrage is selective

Official outrage usually is. Every Russian school kid during the Cold War learned all about Jim Crow and slavery.

My two favorite crimes against humanity *rarely* get discussed because they were the product of free market capitalism.

1.) The Irish in 1848. Lord Russell actually stopped food shipments to the Irish because he thought it was interfering with the free market. Better a few million Irish die. Hmm. I bet Ron Paul would have been with Russell on this one.

2.) The trenches on the Western front from 1914-1918. This whole thing was really one big concentration camp. Stanley Kubrick’s Paths of Glory captures it perfectly. And you can’t talk about Lenin’s “crimes” without also talking about the fact that the only reason Lenin became a world historical figure was because the Social Democrats sold out and supported the war. People who condemn Lenin seem to have no problem with the Czar continuing to send Russian peasants west as canon fodder for the Germans to sharpen up their artillary skills on.

188. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

BTW, Samantha Power is Irish. I wonder what she has to say about the Irish famine as “genocide”.

189. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007

I just throw out what I stumble across. Even the lies pushed out there color in the background … even propaganda provides a negative outline when it tries to steer you away from the truth. Sift it all in, look for patterns.

I found some of the stuff about the Arab states interesting, that’s all.

190. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007

well, if it’s possible to say that one historical horror is a “favorite”, I’d say the systematic destruction of literally thousands of cultures and the humans therein all through the western hemisphere by god, guns and germs, systematically, methodically and all supposedly as deity-given destiny.

Personally, though, I find the entire dance of competing horrors to be counterproductive … outrage at a particular injustice is nursed through generations by the injured group (if any of them are still around), to fester and grow and spread and become the next round of outrages. The zionists fuel their ongoing crimes now with the distillate of what happened to their real or adopted grandparents and great-grandparents. The various groups in the Balkins trade back and forth stories of generations of crimes that they fist over and back like some macabre vollyball.

Humans commit outrages to other humans, led by venal, greedy monsters who use one pretext or another to feed their own rapacious needs, whether economic or merely sociopathic.

All the crimes are outrageous, and the only way out of the cycle is to tell the stories, for everyone to OWN the stories, and for everyone to admit that no one outrageous ethnic, national or religious crimes is any greater or lesser than the next. Murder is murder … no matter what fancy legal concept you want to wrap it in to elevate one pile of corpses over another.

191. Hair Club for Men - 17 October 2007

Personally, though, I find the entire dance of competing horrors to be counterproductive

Ah, but think about how much slower Kennedy and Johnson would have been to swing over to supporting Civil Rights had the hypocritical Soviets not been constantly talking up the idea of American racism in Africa.

192. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007
193. Madman in the Marketplace - 17 October 2007

Off to bed, everybody … good night.

194. Marie - 17 October 2007

MitM #190 – agree

HC Now our presence in Iraq has derailed an issue that the EU and liberals in Turkey have been working on for the past two decades…

Right now Turkey is becoming less secular and the Muslim religious forces in politics are on the rise. I don’t know if this trend began before the US invaded Iraq, but it can’t have helped. Nor can it have helped that the EU has not been effective in resolving real, ongoing, current human rights issues with Turkey to clear the way for their admittance into the EU. Does focusing on a 90 year old genocide that happened before the existence of the current state of Turkey really help? Will that build bridges between Turkey and European countries and the US?

I’m not unaware of the crime of insulting Turkishness. But I hardly think in this era of US crimes against the citizens in this country and around the world, that we have any business pointing fingers at 90 year old crimes in the former Ottoman Empire. As I said earlier, when the world or a large portion of it is ready for a period of truth and reconciliation then maybe Turkey will join in. Comparing Turkey today to Germany in the aftermath of WWII is not helpful. Although at the end of WWI, the Ottoman Empire was chopped up. (btw I did read all 1000+ pages of Fisk’s “Great War for Civilization” – 1000+ pages of unrelenting cruelty, torture and murder.)

Yes, we can talk about slavery, racism and the genocide of Indian tribes. And what good has that done us when our schools remain more segregated than ever and we abandon the people flooded out of their homes in New Orleans? When we can’t even freakin account for and pay the land lease fees due the native tribes who live in poverty? Symbolic lip service for past sins/crimes don’t carry much weight with me.

195. marisacat - 17 October 2007

an issue that the EU and liberals in Turkey have been working on for the past two decades because Bush doesn’t want to piss off the Turkish military. — HC

Isn’t thee also a problem in that Turkey feels its hopes for entrance into the EU are at best currently stymied?

I also noted that the now lobbyist Gephardt (nto anyone I ever cared for) has also changed sides on a resolution, from when he was in congress.


Speaking of S Powers as Irish. ugh… very true. I had meant to catch the C Rose repeat today as I had missed the first 10 minutes of her last night.

196. Marie - 17 October 2007

Marisa #195 Isn’t thee also a problem in that Turkey feels its hopes for entrance into the EU are at best currently stymied? Yes. Has been that way for decades. Sitting at the crossroads between east and west can’t be easy for them. One day they choose the west and the next day the east. Don’t think they’ve resolved the issue of Cyprus. Now the Kurds are re-energized. Might have been better to admit Turkey to the EU a decade or so ago and given them deadlines to correct certain things. That way they would know what they would lose. As it is, many Turks don’t know that there is anything to be gained by being in the EU.

Re: Gephardt just another whore. Although we do have to remember that Turkey has been a US ally since late in WWII.

Kissinger, Powers or Albright? If there’s no difference in their policies, I’m going to have to go with the one that’s easiest on the eyes and ears because he/she will be one of those TV fixtures for the next four years.

197. marisacat - 17 October 2007

right Marie… but a lot tougher now with Sarko. he is not interested in Turkey in the EU, made it clear a thousand times.

198. marisacat - 17 October 2007

OK: the Turkish border issues/war officially made it to my local evening News at 11 pm on NBC affiliate.

199. Marie - 18 October 2007

Marisa #197 – Sarko is a racist pig – so, of course he wouldn’t want to consider Turkey in the EU. There is a large immigrant population from Turkey in Europe, particularly Germany iirc. That immigrant flow could be alleviated if Turkey were in the EU. Of course our neo-liberal version of the EU created the opposite problem.

200. marisacat - 18 October 2007

Yes and violence against Turks in Germany has been growing…

I don’t see that flow alleviated tho if Turkey entered the EU (which is moot anyway right now). The free flow is what has accelerated immigration, work migration from the newly (this and last decade) expanded E border of the EU.

This last election for France is the first where ex-pats were allowed to vote. They voted in Israel, they voted in San Francisco (waited round the block at the Alliance Francaise here). I have not seen hard number breakdowns but think that greatly assisted putting Sarko in.

The French who voted for him knew what they got… So Bonne Chance! Sadly Royal ws a mess.

201. BooHooHooMan - 18 October 2007

Hopefully a twist of the screw coming with.Denny Hastert’s early “resignation”…

202. marisacat - 18 October 2007

new thread:


203. moiv - 18 October 2007

Madman @ 192

The Health Risks of Racism

Black women are twice as likely as white women to give birth prematurely and five times more likely to do so in Southern states such as Mississippi.

A black woman is 3.7 times more likely to die during pregnancy than a white woman and six times more likely to do so in some urban areas such as New York City.

Researchers at the Atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found college-educated black women twice as likely as other women to deliver premature or underweight babies. Scientists found subjects’ birth outcomes resembled those of unemployed, uninsured white women with low education levels.


Black women are more likely to work part time and to go without health benefits. They are 20 percent more likely to be uninsured, and three times more likely to live below the federal poverty line.

Research shows black women are under more stress than their peers, and that stress can compromise the immune system, disrupt the hormonal balance and threaten vascular function.

The reports also implicate racism.

For instance, authors note recent studies at Chicago’s Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University find African American women who deliver pre-term, very low weight infants have a twofold greater lifelong exposure to racial discrimination than African American women who deliver full-term, normal weight babies. They cite a 2007 study from Atlanta’s Spelman College in which black women agree racism is a source of the stress they cite as their “major” health risk.

“For black women, the effects of racism, sexism and class are multiplicative rather than additive,” says Vijaya Hogan, director of the Health Disparities Curriculum at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, who was not involved in the Joint Center reports. “Each increases the individual effect of the other and together they add up to more than the sum of their parts.”

And instead of mitigating any of these health-related stressors, Bush gives us yet another holy-rolling ideologue as family planning czarina at HHS.

204. marisacat - 18 October 2007

well last go round they ran a self funding millionair against hastert… one who refused to campaign. I am sure that as part of the agreement.

And again, IIRC, the self funder non campaigner ws also a former R.

LOL Maybe now the Dems will just shove the non campaigner self funder former R into the old Hastert seat…

and if Sibel Edmonds is right, that hastert got suitcases of Afghani dope money delivered to him.. [her words: “to his doorstep”] my guess is the Dems now get to divvy up the dope cash.

205. wu ming - 18 October 2007

personally, i’m for reading everyone the riot act for these sorts of crimes, so long as you’re pointing the finger at one’s own nation’s crimes at the same time. which few do, generally.

the tragedy in the fingerpointing genocide-off (well, other than the genocides themselves, of course) is that so few people take the opportunity that they afford to recognize themselves and their common humanity in both the victims and perpetrators. it’s such a human constant, on both sides of the bloody process, and yet empathy and reflection are near unheard of reactions to reading about massacres and the like.

one of the things that most impressed me about thich nhat hanh, really.

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