Just a multifarious nefarious thread… 18 March 2008
Posted by marisacat in 2008 Election, DC Politics, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, Israel/AIPAC.trackback
Obama on Israel: “Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country — a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.” (thanks Ali)
Posted by As’ad at 9:16 AM
Well! As long as we are certain it is the radicals!
**********************************************************
Marisacat 
best nuanced title.
Angry Arab has a rather nasty troll infestation.
Really funny pro-Obama titles at Kos
He wrote it himself. Think of that. He wrote it. Himself.
Obama Was a Lot Like This as My Professor
HCfM–well, he can write.
Much better than one who can barely speak.
Speaking of crazy uncles, I see Murtha has endorsed Hillary.
Murthless. Wasn’t he the big out-of-Iraq star, like 2 years ago. I guess he assessed Clinton’s earmarks matched his.
I do wonder what is keeping Feingold out of the fray.
The clusterfuck of denial
You’re a bitch.
You’re a nigger.
I’ll show you that I’m not a bitch, because I cry so hard when I think about my 35 [tm] years of service handcuffing any policy that might actually make a difference in people’s lives.
I’m not a nigger, because I’m post-racial, which means that the whole history of race relations can be summed up in a rousing speech and forgotten because I said some nice things that appealed to alienated white folk.
…
Should I post this as a diary at Dkos… just that… I can only imagine the spew…
Should I post this as a diary at Dkos… just that…
Another suicide blogger enters the marketplace. Duck!
Here’s my take on the Obama speech.
Catnip… I’m tempted… but it is 2:15, my male cat has gone into suckling mode, I played akick ass show tonight, I have to work tomorrow morning, and…the fun has been lost. While I would love to tease them, I’m becoming more mature…
Or at least more tired.
well in the crying games, seems there were some tears at the close of the speech.
Not to be left out.
Esp on a day when Lieberman officiates as Nancy Reagan (the whispered corrections)
What a load of fucking chumps.
Line em up and run them out of town. All fo them.
Or at least more tired.
I can relate to that. My life is a long series of naps interrupted by dentist appointments and cable news shows. 😉
There’s no point in teasing them anyway. They just wouldn’t get it. They’re modern-day tomato throwers. And, with that reference, odd tomato throwing repercussions in Ohio. (They take that shit seriously there!)
Should I post this as a diary at Dkos… just that… I can only imagine the spew…
They would hang you in a tree for several days, making sure that there was a licensed physician on site to keep you alive and in pain. Then they’d cut you down and chop your body into several hundred pieces. After that, Pastor Dan would say a prayer for your immortal soul and Meteor Blades would take photos to prove 20 years from now that he was there. Then they’d ban you from the Daily Kos permanently.
Now that is much more than just tomato throwing.
wtf?
I’m out… g’night vipes.
Sideshow Obamalama dramalama at My Left Drama – speaking of politics breeding division.
13. They’re not that organized. They’d need someplace to send money now! to get someone to do their dirty work for them.
Ain’t that the sad truth…
He’ also probably be ‘assisting some abortions’ at the same time… you know… just to look good with the wimmins.
lol…you guys are bad, 🙂
Whose turn is it to polish the mud wallow this week, btw?
Oh – I just found this useless bit of trivia: “A poke is an old English word for mud wallow”.
So when MB talked about polishing mud wallows, was he really referring to us polishing “pokes”? Logically, from that then, I think it’s safe to say he’s a perv.
/late nite herbal ramblings
The finger makes its reappearence.
http://tinyurl.com/yo9tpn
“Jackals for Obama”. Yikes. I do agree with his/her point that a morning speech wasn’t likely seen by many people. Hard to measure what the impact will be.
20. Pointiness is everything. That and saying “look” while you’re pointing.
there’s nothing worse than faux equality… and feminism is often deployed by seemingly ‘sympathetic’ men.
Not to say that there aren’t feminist men, just to say that be wary of the man who pretends feminist pretexts to curry favor with women.
I s’pose that might include me…
But ya’ll know this.. all too well & better than I could ever say…
And now, I really should sleep…
ciao.
Speaking of toast.
Hilarious:
IOZ
It’s too tightly packed to pick out an excerpt.
Have a good day, everybody.
Listening to Obama’s Iraq speech in Fayetteville. He is attacking by name the policies of Hillary Clinton, McCain and Bush over and over as if he is funning against all three. Weird effect.
or running, whatever
more funning:
” I mentioned that, sorry, I had donated $50 (none / 0) (#19)
by Miss Devore on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 09:47:50 PM EST
to Barack Obama this month, and my comment got deleted?
No money to spare for bloggers who likely make over 3X more than I do.
Guess it was “off-topic”
[ Reply to This ]
Jeralyn, I have an interesting off-topic story (none / 0) (#20)
by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:29:36 PM EST
re. who’s selecting Democratic nominee. There’s no open thread so I sent the materials in an email to you. Hope that’s ok.
[ Parent | Reply to This | 1 2 3 4 5 ]
I’m not Jeralyn (none / 0) (#23)
by Miss Devore on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:59:54 PM EST
as if that wasn’t obvious.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
[new] there’s an open thread now (none / 0) (#24)
by Jeralyn on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:03:57 PM EST
and enough from Ms. Devore ”
I love the way people insist on turning a fictional character from Boris Karloff’s Thriller from the early 60’s into “Ms. Devore”
Little Ms. Muffet
Sat on her tuffet…
Lenin’s Tomb takes a closer look at the global crise in the monetary, investment and credit games.
And it is not pretty.
Meanwhile the anti-China-but-silent-on-Iraq-and- weeping-to-enhance-the-diversionary-use-of-horror-in-Darfur/Congo/Niger Delta/Horn of Africa/ will square their shoulders, wear their rubber solidarity with Bono bracelets, double check they have Holbrook on their fav five and soldier on.
As the human wreckage piles up.
Priceless…
i’m reading some of the state/local opinion/pushback on the wright controversy. heres one of the afrospear/Jena 6 bloggers, shawn williams, writing from dallas. i came to his blog via the dallas morning news. they’ve published a similar version to what I’m posting, which went up on his blog on monday.
The Media Lynching of Rev. Jeremiah Wright (Part 1 of 3):
How a 36 year career of evangelism and activism is reduced to a 30 second sound bite
part two went up this morning.
The Media Lynching of Jeremiah Wright (Part 2 of 3): Crazy Talk
here’s a link to the belo dallas morning news op-ed by shawn. it went up on their website yesterday afternoon and hit the print edition this morning. it’s interesting in that it isn’t a verbatim copy. i’m not sure if we’re seeing the influence of the paper’s editors at work (DMN is very conservative), or if shawn rewrote and polished.
Holy Crap! From the thread comments in the linked Angry Arab thread:
Apparently my proposed Dkos diary of last night was pretty fucking spot on…
Day long protests in SF against the war… from the Fed Building (people chained themselves to the building this am, last I heard 2 were cut loose and arrested) blocking 20+ offices (Chevron is one) across the city, blocking Market St, a huge scarlet banner was unfurled during the am traffic on one fo the bridges (think Bay bridge I missed catching it)
5 pm mass parade and demonstration.
Opps no it was Golden Gate Bridge that the banner was unfurled.
While everyone rakes over the nuances of American racism 24/7, indigenous people around the world are simply being quietly murdered if they are in the way of the corporate machinery, whether soy expansion in Brazil or Chinese interests’ plans to flood tribal areas of Burma for hydroelectricity to export out of the country.
To observe the UN’s International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (on March 21) Survival International has given an award to what it calls “the most racist article of the year.”
Originally published in Paraguay’s La Nación, the article Indians in Uruguay Square is available in original Spanish and English translation at SI’s website.
wow… just, wow…
The DJIA is down 212 points, with an hour and twenty minutes to go before the close.
I spoiled the live-blog of their conference call with the Clinton campaign:
“[new] then express it without insults (none / 0) (#19)
by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:44:11 PM EST
or you will be banned.
[ Parent | Reply to This | 1 2 3 4 5 ]
[new] the banned wagon (none / 0) (#21)
by Miss Devore on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:48:21 PM EST
is preferable to the bandwagon. ”
I called her an insider. Why is that an insult if she is utterly thrilled to be one?
dkos diarist delivers knockout blow to HRC campaign:
Hillary is a supporter of Heather Mills!
Actually, she was giving lip service to Mills’ campaign against landmines. Nothing much more than lip service, but that’s another story. Here’s the real issue:
Just when you think it can’t get any stupider.
Norman Solomon / FAIR on the no coverage to a high point of a little coverage of the Winter Soldier hearings…
more mischief:
” new] one more and you’re gone (none / 0) (#23)
by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | 1 2 3 4 5 ]
[new] if you are so thrilled (none / 0) (#24)
by Miss Devore on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:59:25 PM EST
to live-blog a clinton campaign call, why are you insulted to be called an “insider”?
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
would like to have asked Hillary about cluster-bombs v. land-mines,
but I don’t think I’m going to be in on the conference call, for some reason.
Heather Mills has experience profiting hugely from a bad marriage. She is a role model for all woman who got the raw end in a divorce.
This is 21st century feminism. Who are Yoko Ono & Mia Farrow supporting?
Cheney On Two-Thirds Of The American Public Opposing The Iraq War: ‘So?’
The DJIA lost 293 points today, meaning that 70% of yesterday’s gains were wiped out, for no apparent reason other than investors are unwilling to believe such a rebound was indicative of the economy’s soundness.
Sooner or later, BushCo.’s Free Money!!!!™ shenanigans will reach the point of diminished returns. When they do, all the Fed rate cuts and floods of money into the system won’t produce anything more than trivial stock market gains, indeed, may produce days like today because people won’t be able to ignore that such desperate measures indicate the whole rotten system is about to collapse.
James has a new post up at Mo Betta: Five years of war journalism from outside the corporate media
Clinton Responds to Obama Speech
ABC is really going after Obama – Buried in Eloquence, Obama Contradictions About Pastor
What does Kos have to say about pwogs protesting his site’s biggest cash cow? I mean, Chevron. You know they are giving DK the most cash. And they laugh at the site while his minions think they’re striking a blow to the Oil Man. “We’ll take their cash and make ’em go broke! We’re such little Roves!”
Obama’s Iraq war speech. I wrote a blurb about bits of it (and US politics in general) on my blog.
OMG – Tweety dances with Ellen DeGeneres on her show and ends up grabbing her boobs.
well it was a glaring shift, several resources have pointed it out from ABC to Lynn Sweet at Sun Times in Chicago. Tho ABC has run this story hard since the 12th or whenver film of Wright broke thru.
Jon Meacham as well last night on CRose (tho he loved it all… )
The presumed reality is that there are lots of tapes (and media is indicating they have more, as more Wright outfits are showing up in snips with no accompanying soundbites) and Obama knows he too likely is on tape. Media is also showing more scans of TUCC audience clips.
Pleanty of news sources tho have pandered to and kept up (as late as yesterday) that all these instances “are years ago”. Eugene Robinson for one.
Geesh, Dec 2007 and Jan 2008 is not years ago.
caveat, I have no problemw ith what Wright said. But it is foolsih to say Obama handled this well. The campaign did not.
Lynn Sweet committed the extreme sin of calling it a political speech.
Or we can stay at some racial Disney Land, as in “Greatest since Martin”.
48
that seals it. Tweety was not breat fed.
LOL
or soemthing.
breast.
I cannot type.
48 — Too bad she didn’t grab him by his nuts, swing him over her head a few times, and toss him into the audience.
My feeling is that, no matter how good/great/brilliant/stunning people may have found Obama’s speech to be, it’ll end up being a wash for him politically. Either that or his numbers will drop slightly. I haven’t seen any polls taken since the speech so I guess we’ll have to wait. I think the bottom line is that, in general, people (real people, not the pundits/bloggers/journalists) don’t really want to talk about race – certainly not the extent that it needs to be talked about.
The idea that Pat Buchanan is allowed to be an arbiter on what’s racist and what’s not on a major cable TV network is too surreal to comment on.
52. lol..that would have been a Kodak Moment.
53 I keep seeing this criticism of the speech that it is a total failure because it wasn’t simple(minded) enough. That it should have consisted of three or four well crafted sound bites. And that is from – I think – his fans, it is actually meant as constructive criticism.
Be stupider. Lower the bar. Talk about appealing to the worst.
55 — That’s assuming she could find anything to work with.
56. Maybe they thought it should appeal to Hillary’s “low-information” (ie. stupid) voters.
57. Well, he must store his chutzpah somewhere. 😉
Speaking of teh stoopid. (!!!!)
I was not criticising the speech… basically he did what he had to do… called it a speech on race, which it had to be to try to get past the full blown reality of Wright – as exploited during a high stakes presidential run..
Overall, so much better to not duck this for a year. Get it out. As rfecently as the NYer profile on Michelle, the writer asked a simple question of Wright while at a church service with Michelle (I posted this at the time) and a minder ran over, No Questions in Church, of anyone. Michelle added they did nto want their church “hurt” in this.
God help them.
What I saw was a political speech with some truths worked into it. One that walked a tough line between holding segements of the black vote and try to keep segments of the whtie vote.
Delivered to a very friendly audience.
I have no problem with that, but I also saw last week that Obama would much have preferred to leave it at Huffpo, three cable interviews and that YouTube. And friendly editorials and pundits and opinion writers.
not enough.
How can they nto have seen what the Wright tapes would do? At least be ready.
Summer of 2003 when a Kerry supporter totally lost it in threads at Dkos when someone [honestly I think] asked what WAS the old story about the medals toss… I thought, Oh we have a problem. I knew the problems went way back, so I quietly googled on my own, no diaries no posts way before SBVfT and yes indeedy, iirc, there were, over the years, three stories, at least on the damned medals toss. All of them from him.
Plus his own medals hang on the wall of his senate office today. And did in 2003.
It was going to be a big big mess.
Yes – she ‘worked’ on NAFTA for a whole 15 minutes!
Oh Nancy said today that Democrats will “continue to work to end the war”.
Nothing left to say really.
I remember very well groaning when Kerry came on at the convention, gave his cornball salute, and said whatever shit about reporting for duty. I was with a couple people who dont know or care anything about politics, and they groaned as well. “Hi, I’m a caricature of the composite that my focus groups said you wanted.” It’s bad enough not being able to fake authenticity, but to be unable to even be authentically fake, when it is the very core of your being, suggests a real crisis of identity.
Some kossack posted “bless Judicial Watch” in response to a comment about their role in getting Hillary’s schedules released, to which I responded, “yes, bless Judicial Watch.”
62. I swear I haven’t seen such a flood of kool-aid drinkers since…well…just insert an example of any Bush-supporting event here. Totally blinded by delusions. I guess that’s today’s fact-free Dem party. It just smacks of desperation, yet they say they’re not fearful.
63 — Yes, no doubt forever. She’s a perfect example of keeping the dream alive by staying asleep.
Rumor may explain why commodities tanked today.
” What sparked concern was a rumor that the futures exchanges or regulators – or maybe both – were considering raising margin requirements for “non commercial” commodities traders – especially non-com energy traders. Non-commercial traders speculate on the price of commodities but do not ever take delivery of the commodities. Amaranth was a non-commercial trader, while Exxon-Mobil is a commercial trader.”
Amaranth was a hedge fund that collapsed, in Sept 2006, playin’ the natural gas futures market.
glen ford at BAR
Fire and Damnation Awaits Those Who Transgress Against White America’s Civic Religion
I have now dubbed John McCain “McSurgey”.
bruce dixon at BAR
Obama’s Multiracial Coalition and the Politics of Racial Reconciliation
Thanks for the BAR link, they did not publish last week so I am glad they managed to publish this week.
Off to read.
well.. thsi is Glen Ford’s close:
That’s why I see no difference in any of these candidates’ foreign policies. It’s all US/Israel centric from which everything else is measured. Very little talk of “peace” – only volumes on how to manage the ME.
Someone wrote on their blog today that McSurgey campaigns in Israel like it’s just another US state. No doubt. Meanwhile, Israeli journalists have been busy at papers like Ha’aretz (which is the only one I read almost daily) pumping up the case for Obama. They already know where Hillary stands over there.
Same shit, different parties. It’s all very discouraging.
That Lenin’s Tomb excerpt is spot on.
I really had no problem with the speech. Personally, I didn’t think it was all that where people will be speaking about it for generations to come. It is like I told my father, those who support Obama will love it and those who didn’t won’t.
Jeff Greenfield and Frank Lutz were on CBS News and there were asked did Obama accomplish what he set out to do; both agreed with each other and said no. Sure Lutz is a right wing spin master, however, Lutz’s criticism was pretty interesting. He said that the text of the speech was good, but the delivery of the speech was the problem – i.e., not looking directly at the teevee camera and the speech was an overkill on Wright.
Holy crap Melvin. That makes O’Reilly and Buchanan sound like civil rights marchers.
investors are unwilling to believe such a rebound was indicative of the economy’s soundness.
The money dumps by the Fed are made to help insiders finance the movement of the assets to safer harbors before the bottom falls out, IMHO. That’s all …
Meanwhile I got the IRS notice in the mail today that a few hundred bucks is coming in a few months. Wonder how much that cost?
FBI mortgage probe examining 17 large firms
NAFTA Comes Home to Roost
80. look at Gergen’s recent assertion that Hillary had so much trouble with NAFTA–and they were at the same event. Priceless:
http://tinyurl.com/yqhmfu
80. They’ve got 2 unnamed sources. Whoopee. That reminds me of the Obama/NAFTA story which began with unnamed sources as well.
Hillary praised NAFTA in Living History–2003-where she was under no constraints of being First Lady.
Too late to fend off the Obamalamamania over Hillary’s records but, as the NYT says tries to remind people:
The records that will spawn a thousand gotcha blog posts.
Fisk: The only lesson we ever learn is that we never learn
man all those hillary operatives are gonna be crushed.
this wont play well in PA.
reuters picked it up. and its going out on their wire.
Omar Khadr says U.S. interrogators threatened rape
The treatment of this child soldier is one of the most appalling and gut-wrenchingly sick sagas I’ve ever had the displeasure to follow. Words just fail sometimes.
I thought I read somewhere that the only reason she put on a pro-NAFTA face what that she was under constraints by the President handler that she and anti-NAFTA needed to come off as a united front.
Truthfully, NAFTA is a tricky thing because while Obama was mouthing off anti-NAFTA in Ohio, his message was not well received in South Texas, which actually did benefit from NAFTA. Border towns that were dead, suddenly prospered and became one the fastest growing cities in the US. There are numerous studies that say the same thing. I am pretty sure, the Clinton camp will dig that out again.
The Obama camp will try to make an issue of since the latest tracking polls are showing that Wright didn’t help him. The reality is, both candidates are forced to walk a very fine line. But like catnip said, all these released records will do will spawn a thousand gotcha blog posts. Honesty, I don’t see anything will come of it.
Is it April 22 yet?
Forget NAFTA and racism in America, that is soooo yesterday. Oh yeah, it was yesterday.
ABC decided it was more important to report about the day Hillary Was in White House on ’Stained Blue Dress’ Day.
88 — Americans just can’t seem to understand that just because they would rather change the channel and think of more pleasant things, the Muslim world won’t forget for a good fifty years that America is is a country that officially condones the rape of children.
God damn America seems far too mild at times.
someone at a dallas morning news blog is rich. as in denise rich.
So many pages, so little time
90. Hmmm…I couldn’t find any “Stained Blue Dress Day” cards on Hallmark’s site. I thought for sure they’d be in this category for “don’t stand by your man” wimmen to send to each other.
Stop the presses (or alert KO or something), Gorby’s a Christian.
Supposedly, the story goes, Gorby’s grandmother secretly baptised him.
Off to read…
94 —
The tomb of St Francis is a pretty cool place to come out. (Although, as my sister would say, did say, “What exactly do you think you are coming out of?”)
Christ I’m old. And nothing has changed.
What a sad carcass DK has become. Now anybody that supports HRC is a troll and sock-puppet. This is how Markos and his blind flock help Obama lose.
One word Pathetic (0 / 0)
So , I’m a Black Male 43 married living in Northern Ca. I’m an HRC supporter (not connected to her or her campaign). And I find it pathetic that some on the left have taken to using Ring wing tactics to drown out disenting voices.
What happened to you??
by ggymrat32 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:20:09 PM PDT
Ummm no, you’re not.
98 Inevitable given that the owner has no principle but self-aggrandizement, and isn’t even very clever about that.
some followers of St. Francis were considered heretics. It was thought he out-Jesused Jesus.
Ummm no, you’re not.
It’s not even about the Daily Kos.
It’s about electoral politics here in the United States and the delusions that you can have any influence through either one of the two mainstream parties.
I will say that Joshua Frank nails the issue here. Obama is expanding the voter rolls and participation in the process and that’s what’s making the corporate press nervous.
http://counterpunch.org/frank03192008.html
The Republican establishment certainly deems Obama a serious threat. Not for the reasons Raimondo notes, however. The neocons fear Obama because of his grassroots support, not his “antiwar views”. Simply put: Obama is not antiwar but his following seems to be.
The Obama campaign is about containment as is the Daily Kos.
An interesting crackup going on in the anti-Ron Paul “anti-racist” community.
http://tinyurl.com/33ynju
They’re outing one another left and right and accusing one another of working with both white supremacists and the federal government.
And the problem with Ron Paul seems to be the same problem with Jeremiah Wright.
I listen to talk radio and when the Ron Paul people call in and host tries and talks to them about the flaws in his message they don’t seem to get it. Like when Ron Paul blamed America for 9/11.
There’s so much crossover between the extreme left and extreme right in some of these groups its mind boggling.
But I first became a bit suspicisious when they started photographing people at Columbia back in September who were protesting against the war fever against Iran and trying to publish their personal info on the web.
Re the Anti-War movement.
People will (rightfully) complain about the corporate media ignoring Winter Soldier.
But will anybody state the obvious.
There was a staggering lack of ability to mount a presence on the fifth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq.
Will anybody in Code Pink or UFPJ or Answer or any of the anti-war groups have the honesty to come out and say “dude where’s my movement”?
Where does the anger come from?
There was a staggering lack of ability to mount a presence on the fifth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq.
My city has a not insignificant peace group presence (the Syracuse Peace Council is one of the oldest such groups in the country, dating to pre WW2) and they had probably their biggest protest in years downtown (meaning maybe about 100 people). Ages of people arrested for blocking traffic: 46, 39, 53, 85, 78, 22, 61, 21, 88 (a Berrigan), 71, 63, 72, 95 (in a wheelchair!), 62, 63, 24, 54, 56, 37, 25, 58, 23.
You get the picture. I mean, this is a college town. College kids just don’t give a crap – maybe they give a crap about the war, but they continue to show little interest in street demonstrations. If they were being drafted, they’d care.
Ages of people arrested for blocking traffic: 46, 39, 53, 85, 78, 22, 61, 21, 88 (a Berrigan), 71, 63, 72, 95 (in a wheelchair!), 62, 63, 24, 54, 56, 37, 25, 58, 23.
Same in NYC. Nothing but the Granny Peace Brigade. The major anti-war groups have to come to terms with the fact that tying themselves to the Democrats killed the anti-war movement.
well… I am not checking th epolice logs but in films of the day long demonstrations here I saw a range of ages. Plus the day was very controlled, well planned from what I saw and heard..
The film of people who chaimed themselves to the Fed Building, none I saw looked over 30.
Of course we are generally written off out here as nuts on teh edge of the nation. God knows why.
Of course someone threw a Molotov cocktail (or so the reports are saying) at the Chinese consulate this am.
This would relate to Tibet. or the Games. Or that the torch is going to come thru here.
Hell it was likely Spielberg or Mia. Such entrenched foes of the Great Yellow Satan. Or the Red Satan.
I simply don’t know enough about Tibet to make an intelligent comment on it. I’m sure it’s not as black and white as the trendoid Hollywood Buddhists make it out to be. But I doubt it’s coming from the US government either since they just took China off the human rights shit list.
Ages of people arrested for blocking traffic: 46, 39, 53…
Same here. In the red middle of blue Minnesota, most antiwar protesters are my age or older.
However, I’d say it was the Dems who killed the antiwar movement, rather than vice-versa.
new thread
LINK
8)