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It’s not over… 28 April 2008

Posted by marisacat in Inconvenient Voice of the Voter.

but it is up to Barack. Nobody can do it now for him.

I think one of the best ways would be a tour de force debate, just the two of them. Go at it.  Few rules, no holds barred.  Accept the terms offered, no moderation… why not? I think rather than 21 debates, the two of them have only had 3 or 4.

Go for it. Beat her at her own game, and right now it IS her game, and win.




1. melvin - 28 April 2008

I like the idea too. If she started yapping on about Ayers etc even without the clown show egging her on, he could just say very nicely “Whatever, bitch. Now about Latin America, here’s my idea for a new policy initiative . . . .”

2. Hair Club for Men - 28 April 2008

If she started yapping on about Ayers etc even without the clown show egging

Hillary: Bill Ayers yada yada yada

Barack: Hillary. If you don’t bring up Bill Ayers, I won’t bring up the Woodstock Museum you’re funding with American tax money.

Hillary: Jeremiah Wright yada yada

Barack: Jeremiah Wright may have his problems but I guarantee you most of his flock follows the seventh commandment. Do we need to discuss this any further?

Hillary: Farrakhan Farrakhan Farrakhan

Barack: Farrahkan thinks you’re cute by the way Hillary but I didn’t want to bring it up just in case you decided to go to Bill and tell him the minister whistled at you. And we all know how dangerous THAT can be for a black man when there’s a redneck like your husband in the room.

3. marisacat - 28 April 2008

oh those pesky pwesidential campaigns. Not able to “concentrate on the importantt shit”.. Like Kos and Jerome and the others Boyos do in BlahgLandia.

4. aemd - 28 April 2008

A bit OT, not that anything is OT here or, really, anywhere 8-), looks like the Masters of the Universe have set their eyes on the Commodities Market

Yep, those price increases are all due to oil and ethanol. LOL. From the people who brought you the Housing Bubble… The Food Bubble.

5. NYCO - 28 April 2008

Wow, is anyone monitoring dKos right now?

The diary list is making the place look like a meltdown, or at least a cracking of the happy-joy-joy facade. Sample titles:

Gnashing and Rending: A Modest Proposal That You Chill

Senator Jeff Bingaman Picks Obama with Bonus Pink Floyd Endorsement

Obama ’08 – R.I.P.

Fuck the blogosphere

Barack just lost the primary & McCain just won the general

More Reasons some doubt Barack Obama’s Authenticity

WTF? is that all it really takes, is for Kos to post something from on high and it all falls apart?

6. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

is that all it really takes, is for Kos to post something from on high and it all falls apart?

Yes? 😉

7. melvin - 28 April 2008

Wow, is anyone monitoring dKos right now?

I looked in earlier, it seems to be gripped by some mass hysteria. I couldn’t make any sense of it.

8. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008

whichever of those hacks wins, the state-sponsored terrorism will go on:

House Democratic leaders are putting together the largest Iraq war spending bill yet, a measure that is expected to fund the war through the end of the Bush presidency and for nearly six months into the next president’s term.

The bill, which could be unveiled as early as this week, signals that Democrats are resigned to the fact they can’t change course in Iraq in the final months of President Bush’s term. Instead, the party is pinning its hopes of ending the war on winning the White House in November.

Bay Area lawmakers, who represent perhaps the most anti-war part of the country, acknowledge the bill will anger many voters back home.

“It’s going to be a tough sell to convince people in my district that funding the war for six months into the new president’s term is the way to end the war,” said Rep. Lynn Woolsey, D-Petaluma, a leader of the Out of Iraq Caucus who plans to oppose the funding. “It sounds like we are paying for something we don’t want.”

The bill is expected to provide $108 billion that the White House has requested for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lawmakers who are drafting it say it also will include a so-called bridge fund of $70 billion to give the new president several months of breathing room before having to ask Congress for more money.

Say hello to the new mass murderer, same as the old mass murderer. Why should he/she/it care if more of the country crumbles, more children go unfed or unclothed or uneducated or untreated?

“We raised concerns,” Lee said. “It just wouldn’t make sense to force (members of Congress) to choose between providing food stamps for people who are hurting and need help during this terrible time and funding an occupation that people do not support.”

House leaders may be able to get around the issue by splitting the votes. Last May, Democrats used a similar tactic, staging votes on two amendments – one for $22 billion in domestic spending, and another for $98 billion for the two wars – to allow anti-war lawmakers to vote for the domestic spending, but against the money for the war.

How about you people quit giving in and trading votes and start gumming up the works?

Nah, didn’t think so.

9. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

This is fun. All of these talking head hacks like KO are now wringing their poor hands that Wright is back after spending how many hours defending him before?

Will Obama have to give Race Speech: Part Deux? Stay tuned.

10. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

I think rather than 21 debates, the two of them have only had 3 or 4.

Exactly, but “21” sounds like a better avoidance number so that’s why he uses it.

11. marisacat - 28 April 2008


yeah agree.

But he needs a fast topic changer… He COULD talk about commodities issues, the real lowdown like aemd up thread (#4)… but easier LOL would be to agree to a debate. Wright would recede pretty fast. Not far, but at least for now.

Otherwise I think Wright is just getting wound up… to spin out across the landscape. he had great fun the past 4 days.

12. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008

After three or four decades of having to listen to Falwell, Graham(s), Robertson, Hagee, Roberts, Baker etc, I’m still finding all of the outrage over Wright funny. Even the AIDS stuff is more credible that gay-marriage-and-abortion-caused-911 and such.

So much faux outrage from comfortable bigots and fools, and so much cowardice from Obama and the other faux “progressives”.

13. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

Well they’re going to have to do some pretty impressive spinning to get Wright off the radar screen. Some of the O supporters are now saying Wright isn’t fair game because he’s Obama’s “former” pastor – yeah, “former” as in up until last month. Meanwhile, they still want to go after the McSurge/Hagee connection. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, afaic, and Wright will be providing more ammo most likely throughout Obama’s run. I suspect he’s not all that happy with O throwing him off the changeyhopeiness bus and obviously sees a grand opportunity for self-promotion.

14. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

12. I’m not outraged over what Wright said. No point in that. I just find the whole sideshow of sidestepping entertaining.

15. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008


Rather than dispatch armies of attorneys to argue futilely that the government must give back the latitude it has siezed for itself, we should seek instead to expand the argument about the provisionality of law. Let’s instead argue for the totally voluntary nature of compliance. Let each man determine on the basis of his own conscience what he will or will not do at any given time. The President wants to torture Pakistani cab drivers? Very well. I want to fuck one sixteen-year-old while blowing coke off another’s smooth ass in my front yard while surrounded by burning American flags and campaign posters in violation of municipal size and date regulations. The President wishes to launch wars of aggression without Congressional declaration? Fine. I want to burn trash, discharge unlicensed firearms, and raise small livestock within the city limits. The President wants to direct his former staff memebers to ignore Congressional subpoenae? Hey, I don’t pay my parking tickets either.

Many Americans are beginning to sense that there are cracks in the dam, and the more agitated seem very often to be on the verge of panic, but we are neither the concrete nor the downstream bystanders about to be swallowed up in the flood. We’re the water behind the motherfucker. To free ourselves we need only follow the tug of gravity where it leads.

16. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008
17. lucid - 28 April 2008

MitM – The comment thread is pretty hilarious on that too. Apparently a number of people don’t understand the words ‘juxtaposition’ and ‘irony’.

18. marisacat - 28 April 2008

LOL well Wright has been popped from his box on the SS of Chicago. I don’t like any of them. Wright, or the line up of white christianists. Nor do I like the churches around here, and elsewhere, with authoritarian blacks, some who spoke out, as did other pro State, pro Repubulican black churches against Anita Hill, for instance. ‘No black woman should stand in the way of a strong black man’s ascension’. BMAFB. Those churches are not helping ANYONE.

I don’t like the Episcopalian elite in this town, nor the Catholci bishops. Thanks to Catholic Bishops and two rich white Catholics in CA we have to fight off ballot measures about abortion. NO ONE ELSE CARES…… I don’t like the rabid Filipino Catholics or the really nutso Asians who came to religion thru the missionaries. Loony whackos.

Obama has made a bad enemy. Going over Wright’s words, he is REALLY incensed about “divisive”, that was Obama’s word for his words for the Wright statements. In his famous race speech. I think wright is JEALOUS.

Neither seems too adult to me. I think Wright thought he was on track to ascend to some very prominent role, as his most famous parishbioner rose to the WH.. a fucking colonial pile.. He STILL clings (yes) and is very anxious to point out that he, HE prayed with (anointed?) the Obamas before BO went out into the “secular” world to announce his candidacy.

They are loaded with ego and Wright’s is bright red and sweating. he’s going to haunt obama.

I looked to see if Dayo Olopade had an update to her (or his) earlier pieces on Wright…there is a new one today. Unlike most of the TNR sweating, fake liberals gasping their love Obama, Olopade had hung back.

And btw,, I found a comment extracted from the FOX interview, will find it… I had missed it reading the txt. That for trade, must move from the fringes, and embrace Free Trade, like the DLC and the Blue Dogs who are the business of the party.

honestly I really doubt Jesus would enbrace soemthing so killing as our trade deals. what is the use of this horrid thing, christianity. Seems like a mile high pile of EXCUSES.

19. marisacat - 28 April 2008

Here it is:

Free markets work, and are more efficient. It’s about time serious Democrats acknowledged this and started bringing the conversation back from the far-left fringe into the mainstream center with the DLC and the Blue Dogs where the business of America is business.

20. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008

Oh, I’m sick of them all too … but it’s fun to watch Wright make rich white people’s heads explode. The Morning Joe clowns were all upset about him making fun of Kennedy’s accent.

If there’s gonna be a culture war, I say it should happen from all sides. Anything that helps along the needed social meltdown, the better. Let ALL the wackos loose. One thing that helped the Constitutional Convention understand the need for a separation of church and state was the increasing incidents of one state-sponsored religion fucking over believers from another religion in the various new states. Eventually learned it was better to call a truce. Maybe it’s time for that lesson to be rubbed in everybody’s face again. Make the evangelicals in Deerborn MI think about their kids being force to pray a couple of times a school day prostrate on a rug … school prayer will seem less exciting tout d’suite.

Oh, off this topic, but I just found this:

Daley: Chicago police to get assault rifles

Tribune staff report
2:55 PM CDT, April 26, 2008

Mayor Richard Daley said Saturday Chicago police officers will he armed with high-powered assault rifles when they’re on the streets fighting gangs and other criminals.

“Many times they’re outgunned, to be very frank,” Daley said at an event in the Englewood neighborhood. “When they come to a scene, someone has a semi fully-automatic weapon and you have a little pistol, uh, good luck.”

The city’s police officers carry pistols, and Daley suggested they will start carrying “M4 rifles.”

Police spokeswoman Monique Bond said the department still is working out details about the M4 carbines.

Well, that will make it easier for the next outbreak of contagious shooting … no longer any need to put in another clip to fill someone full of 50+ shots.

21. moiv - 28 April 2008


Yep, it’s a real meltdown over there, for sure. Now somebody’s got a diary up praising big Bubba.

22. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008

Free markets work, and are more efficient.

Sure, just ask the housing industry. Or people waiting for healthcare, or … Iraqis waiting for clean water and electricity.

23. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008

I love Folkbum’s title about today’s Supreme Court ruling:

US Supreme Court Finally Cracks Down on Boss Tweed

24. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

19. If he keeps throwing everybody off the bus, pretty soon it’ll be empty. Mind you, it will take a while before some people realize that they actually are being cast aside but, in the meantime, he’ll enjoy their worship of him.

25. wu ming - 28 April 2008

it would be so easy for obama to kneecap hillary just by spending a week or so of speeches and interviews hammering the clintons’ legacy of neoliberal “reform” and connecting it to the depression today.

but to do that, he’d have to want a serious change from that legacy. he’s inched close to that position at times, but can’t bring himself to just cut the fuckers loose.

the hints are what’s pissing bill off, though. he reads between the lines enough to see what’s being hinted at. the rest of the country’s gonna need something a little bit more like a sledgehammer.

26. marisacat - 28 April 2008

If he wants to win he has to run against her.

27. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

25. It seems to me he’d actually have to have a strong counter-plan to come out and do that. And I think he already has dropped some pretty strong hints about what he thinks about the Clinton years but he also knows that, despite his ‘wanting to change the way things are done in DC’ rhetoric, he has to work within the system. Afaic, he seems quite comfortable with that system, despite what he says, so I don’t see where any staggering economic reform would come from him if he ends up being prez.

28. aemd - 28 April 2008

# 15 “We’re the water behind the motherfucker.”

Ioz has that right. Woohoo, it’s gonna be a hell of a ride.

# 21 “Now somebody’s got a diary up praising big Bubba.”

Mr. Perrin weights in on “big Bubba” (end of his post). 😀

29. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008

He wouldn’t have to work within the system if he wanted to build a new political consensus and build his own power base … “work within the system” is a dodge the Donks use to avoid actually doing anything while cashing in on corporate cash and campaign “donations” from the rubes. See “Pelosi, ‘off the table'” and many other examples, like the war funding I linked above.

Here’s a take on what’s wrong with Wright that I wholeheartedly endorse, over something that is actually important … music:

his views about music are wildly archaic, misinformed, and prone to stereotyping, which is a lot ironic, considering the theme of his speech and its obvious purpose of PR damage repair.

Wright’s main point was that it’s about time humans stopped looking at other members of the species as somehow deficient on account of their physical and ethnic characteristics, and he used a number of musical examples by analogy to demonstrate, claiming that aficionados of “European cantatas” find those of black American gospel singing “deficient.” How ridiculous.

As a general matter, musicians are about the worst comparative example to use in Wright’s context because — and I say this from decades of personal experience — musicians are, as a group, the least concerned about “race” than any humans you can find.

Ask Benny Goodman who, in the 1930s, hired Fletcher Henderson, Lionel Hampton, and Charlie Christian. Goodman willingly endured the grief of touring the States in those days with black band members because they were first and foremost brilliant and innovative musicians who happened to have dark skin.

And Goodman, who also recorded Mozart clarinet concertos, was obviously an admirer of both “European cantatas” and gospel shouting. In equal admiration, I bet. Like any musician would.

During his speech, Wright referred to a number of prominent European composers in vaguely mocking terms, claiming that the term “classical music” excludes music from traditions other than the European one. That’s simply not true.

Of course we differentiate among Western classical music and other traditions. And Western classical composers have been admiring and incorporating those traditions at least since the time of Mozart, who wrote an entire Singspiel, Die Entführung aus dem Serail, based in Middle Eastern themes.

Wright tried to get a bit more technical, discussing various time signatures and the emphasis different cultures place on different beats within each measure, invoking Beethoven, of all people, as an example of a non-hip rhythmatist. Wright can’t have heard much Beethoven, the hue of whose own skin was such that he bore the contemporary nickname, der Spagnol (“the Spaniard”).

One needn’t get too deep into the Ludwig van catalog to determine that he was a master of manipulating rhythm. Listen to the third movement scherzo of the Eroica Symphony, one of Beethoven’s best known masterpieces. Ostensibly in three-four time, Beethoven shifts the emphasis away from the first beat of the measure so severely it could be in eleven-four time for all you know.

Never mind the ingenious rhythmically manipulative use Beethoven put to another time signature invoked by Jeremiah Wright, six-eight, in his piano sonatas and string quartets.

30. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

29. He wouldn’t have to work within the system if he wanted to build a new political consensus and build his own power base …

“if” is the operative word in that sentence.

31. marisacat - 28 April 2008

Well get ready. You will be hearing more of his views on just about everything.

The whole thing for months has been too reminisscent of 04. kerry camp pretending it had grip on everything and the very thing that woke up ”Hatch” Hoffman, who had been persuaded, as Kerry’s old commander from Vietnam to come to Boston in ’02 and help defend him agaisnt his sual contingent of anit Kerry-ites who used Vietnam against hiim. HOWEVER< in the book they commissioned Douglas Brinkley to wrote (a drippy drooly thing and by summer Brinkley regretted the entire association) a dark side of Hoffman in Vietnam was exposed. He was a brute. What a shock. What were they all thinking of.

“Hatch” got on the phone and the rest of history.

Asp bosom etc.

32. marisacat - 28 April 2008


omigod that was funny!

33. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008

The implications of Crawford v. Marion County (the Indiana voter ID law)

In Wisconsin, approximately half of the African-American population does not have driver’s licenses, and at least 123,000 people were found to have no form of state-issued photo ID in 2005. And 33% of Wisconsin’s DMV offices, where one theoretically could register to vote, are open less than 4 days a month. Lucky for us, though, Wisconsin is one of 9 states currently practicing same-day registration, so that despite the fact that it’s 33% likely you live by a DMV that’s almost never open, you can still register to vote on Election Day.

In the wake of the 2004 election, Indiana passed a voter ID law, citing the need to preserve electoral integrity and curb the rampant voter fraud that allegedly happens during presidential elections – despite the fact that several studies have shown this problem simply doesn’t exist in Indiana, here in Wisconsin, or on a national level at all, for that matter.

34. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008
35. wu ming - 28 April 2008

27 – that’s the problem, it’s not clear whether he wants to deviate from the 90s at all, although his hints suggest that he might want to to a degree. i see him as a reformer of the basic neoliberal system that the 90s dems, trying to save the system from its own rottenness with a patch here and there, but perhaps more pushable towards something substantive should the populace get unhappy enough. hillary OTOH does not strike me as pushable.

29. agree 100% on the first part. as for the second, while musicians might be notorious cross-pollinators, the general conception of music by the general public, education system, and the (admittedly 3rd rate) school of music that i initially enrolled in before i switched to more interesting majors are very much in the “europe=classical ideal model; everyone else=deficient if occasionally interesting as a side note”

drove me out of the music department, honestly, the sheer arrogance of the assumption that the principles of music are necessarily western. had the school had a decent ethnomusicology program, i might have stuck with it.

so yeah, wright was incorrect that such a stark dichotomy exists in music, arts, language or whatever, but i think his speech was generally correct that the way white society as a whole tends to rank and canonize/denigrate various aspects of culture using some oversimplified idea of a sterilized, neatened-up european model with which to measure and judge all others.

i mean, 99% of so-called “world fusion” music is mind-numbingly 4/4 rock with some ethnic flair stuck on top as an afterthought. one of the things that i love about d.j. cheb i sabbah (an algerian jew that now spins at his own club in SF, one of these days i’ll get over there to see him) is that he takes non-western rhythm cycles seriously as a foundation for his music, as the root instead of a branch, to use the chinese phrase.

36. marisacat - 28 April 2008

Gee. where was the NRA to defend a homeowner?

After the judge delivered his verdict, Trent Benefield, who was injured in the shooting and excoriated by the judge as a liar, wept among his friends and said, “If I did it, I’d be doing twenty-five to life.”

This verdict had been preceded, a few weeks before, by another one, the sentencing verdict of John White, a 54-year-old black homeowner in Long Island who shot and killed an unarmed drunken white teenager who came to his house shouting “Nigger” and, White thought, threatening his family. White wept too, on the witness stand, telling the jury of his fear, the whirl of historical memories, of real and imagined terrors that combined in some mad vortex that ended in a killing that night. He called it an accident. The essential facts of White’s case were as clear as those of the three cops. He was armed; his victim was not. He was afraid a gun or guns might appear from somewhere in the dark, some lynch mob on the way; they did not, but he killed a 16-year-old. A jury convicted White of manslaughter. His fear or the drunken, repulsive behavior of the victim did not figure in the conviction; they were matters for mitigation, and at sentencing White was given two to four years in prison. ::snip::

37. marisacat - 28 April 2008

the righties have leapt on the educational ideas of “different” that Wright put forward. Quite gripped by it they are.

I will say one thing, the French had the [all black] band from Florida A&M (think this is one band Wright mentioned) for their big 200th anniversary of the French Revolution… to march with other assorted and assembled groups, down the Champs Elysees. They were drop dead fantastic.

38. Madman in the Marketplace - 28 April 2008

I agree with you on the musical “education”, now that you point it out, but a lot of art “education” is bullshit anyway …

39. wu ming - 28 April 2008

it really depends on who’s teaching it.

40. wu ming - 28 April 2008

as for the “education” thing, i’m not surprised that they are, given how central their own bell curve ideas of racial mental disparities are to their worldview. it made sense enough to me, if understood not as something physical so much as how kids are raised from infancy. early parental education, as i’m finding out with my own daughter, is constantly ongoing, and a huge influence. every single thing one says, or does, or explains, and how one explains, is all loaded in that little head, and becomes part of the way they perceive and engage the world from that point after.

read that way, it seems fairly intuitive that someone raised in one culture, and then dropped into an educational system based off another one, might struggle, or be “read” by the teacher as a problem, even if the racial biases weren’t already present in the mind of the teacher.

but yeah, i imagine they’re pretty excited about that clip. free license to say what they’re thinking in those twisted narrow little heads of theirs. not unlike carlos mencia’s mexican jokes, they take it as permission because “hey, he said it!”

41. vox humana - 28 April 2008

Some of the problem is the way many people perceive music as an entity, really. Music is not real estate. It is not a commodity that can be rented or owned. Once it is out there in the ether, a true musician knows that she or he cannot then say “give that back to me! It’s MINE!”

It can only be at worst presented and at best shared, and it only grows through sharing. Next thing you know, descendants of slaves are playing instruments invented by European colonialists and then a descendant of those colonialists writes “Golliwog’s Cakewalk” while studying the music of the Javanese gamelan. Later, popular musicians create jazz music based on that composer’s works. And the music goes round and round and woah, oh, it comes out here. Where? Here.

Art education, as with all education of course, depends a great deal on the teacher and the circumstance.

42. marisacat - 28 April 2008

well it hardly matters. Cosby gave the white world the biggest pass in some years. Still at it 4 years later. And obama pushes weak Cosby.

Actually Wright comes from a very structured background. his father and I think, iirc, his grandfather were both pastors. His mother taught at a girls’ school in Phildelphia.

But yes the righties have claimed their prize. One of them. NTIM

43. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

35. i see him as a reformer of the basic neoliberal system that the 90s dems, trying to save the system from its own rottenness with a patch here and there, but perhaps more pushable towards something substantive should the populace get unhappy enough.

And who’s pushing that reform? The so-called “far left” that he disdains. As for the populace getting “unhappy enough”, well, an illegal war, torture, rights thrown out the window…hard to see what it might take for the populace to reach that state anymore, unless, as has been mentioned, there are food and/or fuel riots. Even if they did happen, the great unruly unwashed would be quickly hauled off to some holding cells so as not to disturb the politicians’ delicate sensibilities while they’d do everything they could to assure Wall St that all is well.

44. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

Top o’ the train wreck list:

Superdelegates to blame for enabling destructive campaign
by JedReport

It’s always somebody else’s fault…

45. moiv - 28 April 2008

From the BBC: ‘Free Tibet’ flags made in China

Police in southern China have discovered a factory manufacturing Free Tibet flags, media reports say.

The factory in Guangdong had been completing overseas orders for the flag of the Tibetan government-in-exile.

Workers said they thought they were just making colourful flags and did not realise their meaning.

But then some of them saw TV images of protesters holding the emblem and they alerted the authorities, according to Hong Kong’s Ming Pao newspaper.


The factory owner reportedly told police the emblems had been ordered from outside China, and he did not know that they stood for an independent Tibet.

Workers who had grown suspicious checked the meaning of the flag by going online.

Thousands of flags had already been packed for shipping.

Police believe that some may already have been sent overseas, and could appear in Hong Kong during the Olympic torch relay there this week.

46. wu ming - 28 April 2008

43. agreed, although i think fuel/food/foreclosure riots aren’t as far off as it seems at present. once things start getting messy, a lot can happen really fast, given the degree to which this system is deeply interconnected (thich nhat hanh was prescient in his writings on interbeing). it is in such moments of general crisis that half-step reformers can sometimes be pushed into buying off the populace with reforms that preserve the rotten system in a more palatable form. the new deal was one such reform, although i do not see anything as militant or organized today as the communists and socialists and huey long populists in the 30s who held the gun politically to FDR’s head.

the reason i’m willing to participate in an attempt at propping up that system is that i have little faith that a collapse will lead to a better one.

47. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

46. I’d like to continue the debate with you tonite but I’m too wiped out (sick). Here’s how I see things for now though: any riots during the rest of Bushco’s term won’t produce any results. Look at the measly rebates sent out for the mortgage crisis. If Obama wins, the populace may just agree to wait and see what he does, giving him a grace period regardless of the economic circumstances. Plus, he’s already said he’ll continue the faith-based initiatives nonsense so I can see him pushing people to take advantage of that type of help while the Dems try to get their act together (and you know that will take a long bloody time) to figure out what to do and when without offending the Repubs in the name of bipartisanship.

Stock up on rice and buy a bicycle in the meantime, I guess.

48. marisacat - 28 April 2008

There is so little on the table for the people, that mythical table in congress … and they SO TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER:

NY Times: Elizabeth Edwards Favors Clinton

NY Times: “Mrs. Edwards, her husband’s closest and most trusted adviser, has made it clear that she favors Mrs. Clinton; aides said she had recently tried to persuade Mr. Edwards to do the same.”

via Halperin’s The Page. Since it is hardly news no need to read the long version.

49. wu ming - 28 April 2008

hope you feel better soon, catnip. i just barely got over a cold dating back to christmas. ugh.

50. moiv - 28 April 2008


Yeah, plenty of orangey meltdowny goodness over the EE thang, too.

Maybe, just maybe, Elizabeth Edwards recognizes something in Hillary Clinton that you all have long forgotten in your viral rage. Your fawning testaments and your willful ignorance of Obama’s weaknesses coupled with your certainty of Hillary’s near-fascist desire for power have blinded you to the possibility that Sen. Obama might not win this thing, and that Hillary Clinton might be a viable alternative.

I had some much better orangey meltdowney goodness for dinner — home-built mac and cheese.

51. liberalcatnip - 28 April 2008

Thanks, wu ming.

52. lucid - 28 April 2008

Re the music thang. While I would agree that formal music education at some schools still casts these divisions & I will be the first to say that most trained classical musicians [even ones good enough to make their living from it] generally can’t improvise for crap & when they ask for charts, and you give them changes they are at a complete loss for what to do, over the course of the last century [at least] music has been hugely multicultural. And to some extent, it always has been – all over the world, all throughout history. It’s just so much more evident now with the democratization of music that is the internet [and before it, worldwide distribution and touring]. But even today you see people coming out of places like Julliard that have an extremely broad background in musical styles. They’re no longer simply training people for the philharmonic – that generation of teachers is quickly dying out.

53. marisacat - 28 April 2008

well I never expected the Edwardses to go for Obama, esp after the Wright issues surfaced. LOL… Nice enough people, but my nickname for them is “57 Cadillac”.

And the medical plans are for shit. End of story.

54. marisacat - 28 April 2008

Nightline is gifting Wright… it sure ain’t 15 second loops tonight.

55. melvin - 29 April 2008

Obama campaign plays the asshole card

Other Clinton backers expressed outrage over the Obama tactics. “Hillary Clinton can’t help being an asshole,” said Governor Ed Rendell . . . .

56. marisacat - 29 April 2008
57. marisacat - 29 April 2008
58. Hair Club for Men - 29 April 2008

Wow. Bob Herbert is pissed.

59. Madman in the Marketplace - 29 April 2008

the reason i’m willing to participate in an attempt at propping up that system is that i have little faith that a collapse will lead to a better one.

It’s just a question of time frame. Americans are so afraid/angry at each other that I think we’re headed toward the same place, and I don’t have much faith that we’ll end up better off either way.

60. Madman in the Marketplace - 29 April 2008
61. NYCO - 29 April 2008

Just a random piece of silliness from the peanut gallery…

At Coachella in California last night, Roger Waters replayed many of Pink Floyd’s best songs, including all of Dark Side of the Moon. It was amazing. We have wondered here whether or not the visionary Waters supported Obama, especially after the Jed Report so masterfully used Waters’ “Another Brick In The Wall” for one of his masterful Hillary Clinton critiques. Tonight we may have our answer.

(quotes this story)

Possibly one of the most powerful artistic endorsements ever.

And a response, which I’m not sure was ironic or not:

Is there nothing (2+ / 0-)

That rockstars can’t teach us.

62. Heather-Rose Ryan - 29 April 2008

61 – an “endorsement” on an airborne pig. Well, as they say in Minnesota: “That’s… different.”

63. lucid - 29 April 2008

Knowing Waters, somehow, I read that more as a critique of American politics & economics than an endorsement…

64. Arcturus - 29 April 2008

29. So much wrong w/ that I’m not sure where to begin. And I’m way too tired. Go read that Nate Mackey bit on diversity that I posted ages ago.

That’s a disgusting , euro-centric repsonse that only demonstrates the point – western music is THE standard. Nevermind there are other classicl a traditions in the world older than Europe’s, at least one of which is implicated in its inception. Off to take a dump a now.

65. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008
66. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

63. Obama? When pigs fly.


67. bayprairie - 29 April 2008

Smiling, cracking corny jokes, mugging it up for the big-time news media — this reverend is never going away. He’s found himself a national platform, and he’s loving it.

uh, no. he didn’t find it. this is typical media flight from any hint of responsibility. the wright platform was manufactured by the media and parked on his ass for the last month.

and now he’s driving it around under his own control? reap what you sow, bastids.

68. NYCO - 29 April 2008

62. I think you could have a new DKos feature about these diaries and comments… “Ironic, or Moronic?”

69. lucid - 29 April 2008

Hey you Whitehouse, ha ha, charade you are
You house proud town mouse, ha ha, charade you are
You’re trying to keep our feelings off the street
You’re nearly a real treat
All tight lips and cold feet
And do you feel abused?
You gotta stem the evil tide
And keep it all on the inside
Mary you’re nearly a treat
Mary you’re nearly a treat
But you’re really a cry.

[last stanza of ‘Pigs’]

I mean, honestly, how can anyone read that as an ‘endorsement’?

70. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

68. Schlemihl or No Schlemihl?

71. cad - 29 April 2008

Lipstick on a flying pig?

72. marisacat - 29 April 2008

Hillary goes on O’Reilly Wednesday…

fwiw ntim

73. marisacat - 29 April 2008

I think we shoulda pulled the national plug at the Checkers speech:

OBAMA DAY: Senator and Mrs. Obama appear on today’s ‘Rachael Ray’ daytime talk show, which they taped April 21 at a campaign stop outside Philadelphia. Per the campaign, they gave Rachael a behind the scenes look at life on the campaign trail and talked about raising their girls, and their favorite foods.

From the show’s website: ‘[C]an you imagine raising two girls while your husband runs for president? Michelle Obama can! Rachael gets to know the Obama family, and then she’s got a healthy take on mac and cheese that the kids will love.’

***Obama got more than 18,000 peeps in Chapel Thrill last night. Today, Obama he’ll tour the Dean Dome at UNC with the men’s basketball Coach Roy Williams, then play a game with some UNC players (including Tyler Hansbrough) on the practice court.


same caveat. for what its worth. not that it matters.

74. marisacat - 29 April 2008

Considering there were two new answers to the flag mess all in one day, yesterday… this is not auspicious:

Obama Plans to Address Wright Issue at “Big Press Conference” Tuesday

Tells voter at Winston-Salem town hall that he will address the Wright issue at a “big press conference” following the event.
Read what he said here.


The Page

75. marisacat - 29 April 2008


Transcript of Obama With Voter

Voter: My very brief comment is, that, as you spoke to some of the dirty politics – I was sick to death of some of the soundbytes of Reverend Jeremiah Wright. And I was fortunate enough that my husband had the forethought to tape Bill Moyers interview with Reverend Wright on PBS last Sunday at 11. And I would encourage anyone here who has not seen that to go to PBS.org and watch that interview encourage your friends who may be still holding that doubt about Reverend Wright, where you come from, your spiritual foundation, to watch that interview.

Obama: Well, you know, I’m going to be having a big press conference afterwards to talk about this. So I don’t want to distract from this issue. But let me just say this: this has diverted attention from the first story that you told. And it’s that first story, it is that first story that this election is all about. If you’ve got a mother with a ten year old who needs to borrow $20 to get to her minimum wage job, that’s what this election is about. And that’s why she needs – that mother doesn’t just need $20 from generous people. She needs some help from her government. She needs – she probably doesn’t just need a middle class tax cut. She needs the earned income tax credit to be expanded to give her more income, because if somebody works in this country they should not be poor. If somebody works in this country they should not be poor. If you’re doing the right thing, you should not be poor.

I see it as stump drivel. Maybe he pulls out more/better/other at the presser but the Big Race Speech did not work for me.

76. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

Lots of “uhs” and “umms” during his big press conference.

77. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

I cringed when Obama said that it was somehow a surprise to the masses that black preachers “holler and whoop”. First of all, not all of them do, obviously. Secondly, I think most people are quite aware via the mass media that some black churches – especially the gospel/evangelical type – are places packed with a lot of energy. Who doesn’t know that?

78. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

Clash of the ginormous egos. Stay tuned for round 3.

79. wu ming - 29 April 2008

while it doesn’t match actually walking around in everyday neighborhoods, playing basketball with people (high school kids, military, college teams, etc) is a smart move for him (esp. in NC and IN).

one of the things bush used to his advantage that dems never really picked up on was giving interviews to niche magazines instead of the big DC/NY media. hunting, fishing, biking, etc. the small fish were always glad to get an interview, and bush got the everyday guy sort of image to targeted demographics.

since politics increasingly resembles sports fandom anyways, it isn’t a bad tactic to play on the visual shorthand of “plays a sport like me” read as “regular guy like me.”

80. marisacat - 29 April 2008


i was not denigrating getting out and playing hoops as he is in this town or that town. Should have been doing it all along.

I don’t think it would have been the least bit dangerous [in terms of security] for a guiet word to get around that when passing thru in small towns or giving a speech at a HS, Obama would, given time, get on the court.

Why not.

His big problem has been a structured inaccessibility.

81. Intermittent Bystander - 29 April 2008

Major denounce-and-reject campaign underway. . . AP and Reuters reporting.



82. Intermittent Bystander - 29 April 2008

Denunciations in spam.

83. cad - 29 April 2008

At least Sully is happy now and back into full-on fanboy mode:

And today, we found that he can fight back, and take a stand, without calculation and in what is clearly a great amount of personal difficulty and political pain. It’s what anyone should want in a president. It makes me want to see him succeed more than ever. It’s why this country needs to see him succeed more than ever.

84. wu ming - 29 April 2008

didn’t intend to suggest that, marisa. sorry if it came off that way. i agree completely on the need to get out and mingle with regular people. especially when done in places that never get political attention, any personal appearance can make a huge difference. it also tends to radicalize politicians, from what i’ve seen, when they walk the streets and get earfuls from us peons.

bill clinton was a master at this sort of thing, and still is fairly decent at press and greet. they tried using him in CA-01 to this effect, but it didn’t take. especially in a campaign gone into forgotten states, showing up and meeting people as an equal, even quietly and unannounced, could make a great deal of difference, both during the campaign and after.

85. NYCO - 29 April 2008

Was reading a thread on Big Orange fretting that Obama’s new donors were dropping off.

The source of the data? Numbers posted on Obama’s website…

Sheesh, what is wrong with these people? Are they just really young? Did they sleep through the Howard Dean campaign, or were they just not born yet? Who would use a candidate’s campaign fundraising website as hard data for financial analysis? On a day to day basis, at least, the candidate’s webmaster can make up any shit fundraising number they want to and post it.

86. marisacat - 29 April 2008

showing up and meeting people as an equal, even quietly and unannounced, could make a great deal of difference, both during the campaign and after. — wu ming

agree. More of that, in fact any of it at all, would have made a big difference for Obama.

It has been reported, as quotes from aides in the past couple of days – no idea if true – that it was avoided, the basketball, for fears of ‘too black’. they needed to jettison that. Early and hard.

But his problem all along has been the aloofness in small groups. Soemthing close to disaffection. I have come to believe there was no getting around it.

87. marisacat - 29 April 2008

sorry IB

it’s out now…


88. Intermittent Bystander - 29 April 2008

Thanks, MCat! On the fly . . . back later.

89. marisacat - 29 April 2008

Via The Corner:

Re: Obama’s Numbers [John Hood]

Rich, I’m told that a new Survey USA poll for a NC television station today will put Clinton within five points of Obama. So, yeah, assume a roomful of scaredy cats over at Obama HQ.

04/29 03:01 PM

90. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

81. “That’s a show of disrespect to me. It is also, I think, an insult to what we’ve been trying to do” on the campaign, he said.”

And dismissing Wright as a crazy uncle wasn’t disrespectful to him? What goes around comes around.

Bucket loads of popcorn are in order.

91. lucid - 29 April 2008

Apparently he’s a pretty decent ball player too… I can’t believe his advisors would worry about that being ‘too black’. I mean, I’m a hoosier. It’s one of the whitest states in the country [save the northwest corner] and no kid grows up there not loving basketball – it’s in the water or something.

92. marisacat - 29 April 2008

yes lucid.. the only reason I understand about Indiana and football is that my German godmother married an hoosier. His father had an experimental farm linked to Purdue and his brother ended up hmmm not head coach but a coach there. I mean at Indiana U or whatever it is called.

93. marisacat - 29 April 2008

Childers of MS distancing.

94. marisacat - 29 April 2008

Geesh I head over to TNR to see what the twits are saying and land on this. Is soft paternalism the middle way on abortion.


A couple of days ago I landed on some long drippy weep for Reagan.

95. marisacat - 29 April 2008
96. marisacat - 29 April 2008
97. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

Schism Grows Between Obama and Liberal Bloggers. The use of the word “schism” is an interesting choice considering the messiah politics involved.

98. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

Some kossacks are actually positing the theory that Obama and Wright set this all up in some sort of good cop/bad cop move to save Obama. Mon dieu.

99. cad - 29 April 2008

Aw, check out the big tin-foil hat brains on DK. And Kos is getting whipped in his post on Obama on FOX. Whipped hard.

100. marisacat - 29 April 2008


Both Hil and Ob camps deny they are phone polling on Wright. Ambinder says tho that Ob is polling AND running focus groups in NC.

Most of Hillary’s operation, the ind 527 money, was put into to Ind.

Who’s Polling Wright In North Carolina?

29 Apr 2008 04:34 pm

Not we, insists the Clinton campaign. “Nope,” says an Obama spokesman.

But a Republican in North Carolina reports such a poll.

All questions were about the Obama-Wright relationship and whether that made me think more unfavorably about Barack Obama. Then they asked if I was more inclined now to vote for Hillary since this blew up.

The pro-Clinton 527s are operating in Indiana, not North Carolina. Yet. I know the Obama camp is polling regularly in North Carolina and I know they’re conducting focus groups. But I do not know whether they’ve polled the Wright question. Maybe a media organization is doing this? Maybe the North Carolina GOP is testing for another ad?

Anyone else receive a call?

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101. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008


It certainly is a material-rich environment over there (to put it nicely).

102. NYCO - 29 April 2008

Sez Obama,

“Although I voted against him, I strongly defended some of my colleagues who had voted for him on the Daily Kos…”


“the” Daily Kos.

Yep, that Obama’s sure a hip netroots guy, all right. 🙂

103. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

102. Maybe he actually said “teh” Daily Kos – cuz that would definitely be hip. 🙂

104. NYCO - 29 April 2008

Wow, this thread is (inadvertently) revealing.

When the words “bitchslap” and “uppity Negroes” are being used un-sarcastically in a post that apparently supports Obama… what you have is one deeply schizoid “movement.”

And any Obama presidency is clearly f—ed before it even has started.

The longer this goes on, the more apparent it becomes that Obama ’08 is just a giant half-baked cake.

Sad, because I don’t doubt the sincerity and strength of the values and wishes of Obama’s ardent supporters… but it’s like a tower of Babel, nobody is speaking the same language really, the only common word they have is just one word, “Obama.”

105. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

Obama? Pander? Naaaw.

I don’t think DHinMI realizes what he wrote here:

In his Philadelphia speech last month Obama couldn’t openly repudiate Wright without risking a negative reaction from voters, especially African Americans, would see him as an ingrate, willing to cast aside people who’ve become inconvenient. Now, however, as Wright goes around the country performing as a caricature of what many white voters will perceive as “The Scary Black Man,” Obama has an obligation to repudiate Wright.

So, first he pandered to the AA community and now he’s pandering to whites. Any questions?

106. cad - 29 April 2008

Didja watch that press conference with Bush cackling about cutting the reporter’s mic? That should be the top story: Apeshit President.
But the corporate media elites want us to talk Wright is Wrong.

107. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

Apeshit President is old news. Bush could disappear into the ether until the end of his term and nobody would notice.

108. marisacat - 29 April 2008

listening to the TNH, the Wright Obama ad DID run in NC, the one from the NCGop.

109. Hair Club for Men - 29 April 2008

Bush could disappear into the ether until the end of his term and nobody would notice.

The ether would vomit him out in indignation.

110. liberalcatnip - 29 April 2008

109. That’s true. lol

111. melvin - 29 April 2008

Overheard on Radio Australia’s recap of the headlines: “The American economy has flatlined, at best.”

Flatlined already sounds a bit final, doesn’t it? How much worse than that does it get? Suggests maybe we need to rethink these economic constructs. After all, life does go on.

112. marisacat - 29 April 2008

just a picture and a thread……………………



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