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Why wait? Let’s have religious law. Pronto. 3 July 2008

Posted by marisacat in Abortion Rights, California / Pacific Coast, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, Sex / Reproductive Health, UK, WAR!.

fluminense supporter

A Fluminense supporter, wearing a T-Shirt with a picture of the late Pope John Paul II, cheers prior to the Copa Libertadores final against Ecuador’s Liga Deportiva Universitaria at the Maracana stadium in Rio de Janeiro [Picture: AP via UK Telegraph]

From the UK Telegraph

Lord Phillips said: “It is possible in this country for those who are entering into a contractual agreement to agree that the agreement shall be governed by law other than English law.”

Therefore, he said, he could see no reason why Sharia law should not be used to settle disputes in this country.

He said: “There is no reason why principles of Sharia law, or any other religious code, should not be the basis for mediation or other forms of alternative dispute resolution.”

Yes, we so want religion ruling us. Bring it on.

“My starting point is the Bible,” says a genial, bearded scientist from the television screens of the museum’s first gallery. Between the screens, a model of a dinosaur skeleton is being unearthed by a model of the paleontologist. The paleontologist on the screen explains that the methods he uses are exactly the same as those employed by his scientific colleagues, but while they think the dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago, he believes they perished more recently, some 3,600 years back during Noah’s flood: “The same evidence, but two different conclusions. That’s because we begin from different starting points.”

Yes, let’s. The religious, most particularly the organised, proselytising, are so rational. Don’t you agree?

In one gallery is the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve standing face to face. With her downturned eyes, Eve looks so submissive that you would hardly think her capable of conniving with the serpent. And a few galleries along there is a scale model of Noah’s Ark (the real thing was, according to the display, 100 times bigger).

Two mannequins are hammering away at the Ark. I notice that one of their mouths is moving and step closer to listen. “Noah reckons there’s going to be a great flood,” the electronic workman tells his colleague, shaking his head. “He said God told him so.” A woman has moved up beside me with her young daughter. “He doesn’t believe,” she tells the girl. The girl is five or six; she nods her head but looks more scared than convinced.

What a shock Eve took up with the serpent. He was half way interesting. And no religion.


UPDATE, 4:34 pm

Just saw this, end of the last thread…


Big Sur Will Burn

A dry, hot summer following a long, wet winter—and years of sudden oak death—are bound to fuel an inferno. The only question is: When will it happen?
Sep 28, 2006

. . . Dry grasses and other low-lying forest growth have been piling up in coastal forests for years—their natural rhythm of purge and regeneration stymied by fire suppression and regulation. On top of that, an especially wet spring and dry summer have added more dry fuel than normal.

But the most unsettling element is the massive labyrinth of hardwood trees sitting dead and dying in the Big Sur forest, each tree a highly-flammable victim of an imported pathogen commonly known as sudden oak death.

Hundreds of thousands of these dead oaks now stand or lie atop dry brush, ready to help a fire jump to taller trees like redwoods and pines. This laddering effect is something firefighters fear, because once fires have “crowned” into the wind-charged, hard-to-reach treetops, they get famously difficult to deal with.



1. CSTAR - 3 July 2008

Fluminense.. que é isso? sou Flamengo! Sem o papa.

2. wu ming - 3 July 2008

man, i hadn’t even considered sudden oak death’s role in the fires on the coastal range. fuck.

and the santa anas haven’t even started blowing yet.

it’s as good a summer as ever to read mike davis’ ecology of fear: los angeles and the imagination of disaster. i just got through the 1st chapter, and it’s brilliant, unsettling work.

i hope they’re busting their asses fixing up the levees right now, since the water’s so low. last long drought ended in some spectacular floods, in the early 90s.

3. CSTAR - 3 July 2008

While his sciemtific colleagues

think the dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago, he believes they perished more recently, some 3,600 years back during Noah’s flood

Silly. The world was created last Thursday. God only wants us to believe it’s 3600 years old.

4. marisacat - 3 July 2008

Crist of FL has announced his engagement. To a woman.

5. marisacat - 3 July 2008

The jobs layoff from Starbucks closing is 12,000. Yikes.

6. Arcturus - 3 July 2008

2. hope they’re busting their asses fixing up the levees right now

kinda, sorta, mebbe – not really:

The federal government has offered to give fast-growing West Sacramento two years to show its levees are adequate.

If the city can’t do so, the Federal Emergency Management Agency will designate the city a hazardous floodplain.
. . .
In the case of Natomas, FEMA did not offer the city additional time [just ’til December, which has a rush on – A] to show its levees provided enough protection.

So why does West Sacramento qualify for a two-year grace period?

Federal officials say it’s because they really don’t know if the levees ringing West Sacramento are strong enough to meet the minimum federal standard . . . “We haven’t done a detailed assessment on them,” said Kevin Knuuti, chief of engineering in the Sacramento office of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which advises FEMA on the condition of levees.

In the case of Natomas, the corps had studied the levees enough to say it could no longer vouch for their adequacy.

I worry too – w/ the reservoirs so low, the temptation to ‘save’ as much as possible in a big storm was too great last time around, then suddenly releasing too much too fast putting dangerous forces on the levees – we were lucky it wasn’t much worse then – supposedly they’ve learned . . .

& here’s a repeat plug for Mike Davis’ latest article: Living on the Ice Shelf: Humanity’s Meltdown – unsettling [bad pun, sorry] indeed

7. CSTAR - 3 July 2008

For a minute there I though you had said Christ had announced his engagement.
Shows how much I know. Had to look it up. According to Wikipedia

Crist also dated Katherine Harris, former Florida congresswoman and secretary of state, when the two rising political stars were in their thirties

I dunno.. Isn’t that sort of like Arianna and Newt (I don’t know the particulars of that one … just heard it here).

8. marisacat - 3 July 2008

Oh… this is so sweet,

The Swamp notes this morning that the perception among some progressives that Barack Obama is leaving the left for the center has given rise to an unusual way of tethering the candidate to their issues. They’re putting their money on the table, hoping to raise $1 million in an “escrow” fund that Obama can’t tap until he displays “progressive leadership” on issues.

Really really sweet. Cheap chocolate over maraschino cherry.

9. Heather-Rose Ryan - 3 July 2008

Hey ms x, thanks for the recipe and I heartily second your “get the fuck out of my face” sentiment about the anti-abortion crowd.

When my husband was graduating from med school in Worcester MA, I was going into beautiful Mechanics Hall with all the other family members of graduating doctors and there was a passel of anti-abortion weirdos yelling and screaming at us, becausethe medical school taught abortion procedures at some point in the training. There was one woman who rushed at us screaming “Murderers! You’re MURDERERS!”

Well, my patience was short because I was looking forward to the graduation – both my husband and I had worked very, very hard to make it happen – and I wasn’t going to ;et it be spoiled by some shrieking religious loons. So I got right in her face and yelled something along the lines of “Shut the fuck up, you fucking asshole, nobody here is a murderer, if you came into the emergency room needing them to save your life, you’d be singing a different tune!”

She didn’t know what to say. She and the others fell back in a stunned way, as if they had been watching a still picture that suddenly came alive and talked back to them. I think those protestors, unlike the ones moiv encounters, had not been prepared for pushback.

I’m all for pushback.

10. Heather-Rose Ryan - 3 July 2008

Just so you know, Mechanics Hall in Worcester IS truly beautiful.

11. marisacat - 3 July 2008

6 CSTAR…………….

Well the rumor is that Crist is gay… It swirled around when he ran for Governor….

My guess, he wants to be VP, with FL in play… who knows.

Between trying to float/do something about ex felon’s being able to re register to vote and making big moves w/r/t FL Everglades and the big Sugar monopoly in FL, it always seemed he might be positioning for something.

Sorry I don’t have links handy for what Crist has been doing.

12. marisacat - 3 July 2008


LOL Good going… 😉

13. marisacat - 3 July 2008

I wonder if Mike Davis will have a carefully place opinion piece again this year, to vote for the Democratic candidate. His hook in 92, was “history” and “the future”…

I ahve written here that I was safely away from voting for the presidency, and I blame myself entirely. I have hunted for years, thinking I will land on his Opinion piece in the NYT exhorting the vote for Clinton in 92. Never found it… LOL too political I guess.

Zinn is on board… not sure but think I saw some Chomsky blither for Obama (sort of a, well, what can you do thing)….

I think that sort would be more honest if they did not rope the so called left or dissident or disgusted, rope them for Jesus. And the party.

It gets old.

And yes I am always thankful for their writings. But the candidate exhortation is at sharp variance.

14. Heather-Rose Ryan - 3 July 2008

being “roped for Jesus”: I thought that Obama was mostly OK, the “best of a bad lot”, until this recent religio-fest. And now I really am turned off.

My vote is highly valuable – many have suffered and died to give human beings the right to vote, and women had to suffer longer than others did. So I’m withholding my favors. I don’t need it, they want it. They can wait.

As the misogynist jazz song goes, I Keep On Sittin’ On It All The Time.

15. marisacat - 3 July 2008

hmm hunting around for something from Mike Davis on Obama… landed on this from March 10… long interview from Dissident Voice, but some interesting stuff:

MD: I think you’re absolutely right, and I think the State Department has now made explicit, and indeed even the Bush Administration, by transferring the primary responsibility, at least theoretically, for stabilization from the Pentagon to the State Department, makes it explicit that throughout the world the U.S. is going to work with these NGOs, and these NGOs are kind of soft power American intervention. But what I find very disturbing is that groups that have for so long advocated for peace and nonintervention, like the Friends, would endorse a policy where basically the small-scale job schemes, and free clinics, are part and parcel of strengthening the police and dramatically repressive strategies. And for them to buy into this line, I wonder if this is not what a Clinton or Obama administration would give us on an even larger scale. Of course, McCain, or a McCain/Guliani ticket, is more apt to keep using a big stick.

16. moiv - 3 July 2008

Evening, all.

I was just catching up on the last thread (from where I left off reading last night), and fell out laughing at the two comments posted from the “Abortion Is Good” diary (which was written by a longtime friend who had thoughtfully left a link in my inbox). Before I saw them excerpted here, I’d already replied to both of them there.

Don’t mix things up (0+ / 0-)

no it is not good. The matter who should decide and have power on it should not be mixed with the actual procedure or the ideology behind it.

by choclate on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:06:56 AM CDT


How can you separate (0+ / 0-)

the issue of abortion itself from the thoughts, feelings and motivations of women who choose to have abortions, and claim any pretense of intellectual honesty?

“Pro-life” politicians want to return us to a time when illegal abortion was a leading cause of death among women of childbearing age, while nominally “pro-choice” politicians are too chicken even to say “abortion” unless it’s framed by the urgent need to “reduce” it.

As if it were possible to support the legality of safe abortion care by condemning abortion itself — and by extension, the women who need it.

That’s the biggest trouble with political discussions about abortion — everybody wants to hide.

No one but the women has any guts at all.

by moiv on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:59:47 PM CDT


And yes, I’d taken the bait on the other one as well.

I can’t imagine (0+ / 0-)

even anyone at Planned Parenthood saying publicly that abortion is a good thing. There is a reason they employ counselors at their clinics.

Never to be celebrated, yet never to be prevented either…

No politician ever lost an election by underestimating the intelligence of the American public. PT Barnum, paraphrased…

by jarhead5536 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:11:26 AM CDT


What do you suppose the role (0+ / 0-)

of those counselors to be — at PP or at any other clinic that provides abortion care?

I only ask because that has been my chosen work for about 15 years now, and I’m always ready to learn something new.

by moiv on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:02:41 PM CDT


Ah, you know me so well ……… 🙂

17. wu ming - 3 July 2008

thanks for the two mike davis articles, marisa and arcturus.

18. CSTAR - 3 July 2008

#16 What strikes me about that thread is the amount of equivocation in the comments. There is a clear reluctance to come to terms about what “accepting abortion” means. For example

It’s not abortion, it’s privacy..

I don’t think that’s an acceptable reduction. The accessibility issue for poorer women is one for example that cannot be adequately addressed with a reductionist approach such as this. Even the word “choice” I think plays into this, leading to a whole set of fallacious conclusions.

So there’s always a reduction or addon: it’s a deep moral issue as Obama wants us to believe. Why? Because he heard it from some Bishop? Or his pastor?

The narrative has to begin somewhere else: it definitely can’t begin with an essentially passive observer (which includes me, along with all other males), but passive observers can listen carefully.

19. marisacat - 3 July 2008

ugh… sounds like a lot will go at big sur

yum karel on KGO810 am radio (local SF talk radio) is on secession. California seceding. I am all for it.


LOL he’s got the point, which is … if we tried to go, would they attack us? Yup, he’s got it.. and they would. Any state iwth a port or water access can go.

20. moiv - 3 July 2008


“Reductionist” in more ways than one. Another diary promoted Jim Wallis’ proposed “abortion reduction” plank for the Dem platform — which is nothing but that spavined Trojan donkey known as the 95-10 Initiative.

In the thread, the diarist also called for making abortion “rare” by closing clinics, which is exactly what 95-10 would accomplish with its provision for “informed consent” (as if any physician performed any kind of surgery without it) — which is anti-abortion-speak for imposition at the federal level of the same kind of TRAP law that already exposes doctors to the risk of criminal prosecution in about three dozen states.

95-10 just candy-coats that, as well as a massive public funding scheme for CPCs, with beneficial measures that should stand on their own merits, such as guaranteed coverage for prenatal care and increased support for student mothers.

And of course there’s no provision in Wallis’ platform plank for contraception, either.

“This is going to be a big Denver conversation,” said Wallis. “You don’t have to call for criminalizing anyone. You don’t have to take a different stance about a woman’s right to choose. But you begin with the need for reducing abortion dramatically.”

The abortion reduction plank that Wallis envisions would call for making adoption easier, supporting low-income women, and stepping up pregnancy prevention efforts.”

The diary also quotes Sarah Posner:

“But calling Wallis “progressive” or “liberal” justifiably rankles pro-choice progressives because he’s anti-choice. And the term “abortion reduction” is a loaded one. Although “unintended-pregnancy reduction” is a bit of a mouthful, that really is, of course, the first line of defense in reducing the number of abortions. But when I asked Wallis’ spokesperson last week whether contraception would be part of his envisioned “abortion reduction,” plank, he said Wallis would have no comment. No comment? Contraception seems like a no-brainer for someone like Wallis, but the religious right stymies legislative efforts to expand the availability of contraceptives, particularly to teenagers, and so Wallis’ silence seems to be a gesture to the religious right, rather than a progressive position on reproductive health.”

Our diarist is a good Democrat, though, because unlike Wallis and DFLA, he supports birth control. It definitely roiled the waters, with 450+ comments.

21. bayprairie - 4 July 2008

Obama: Mental distress can’t justify late abortion

WASHINGTON (AP) — Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama says “mental distress” should not qualify as a justification for late-term abortions, a key distinction not embraced by many supporters of abortion rights.

In an interview this week with “Relevant,” a Christian magazine, Obama said prohibitions on late-term abortions must contain “a strict, well defined exception for the health of the mother.”

Obama then added: “Now, I don’t think that ‘mental distress’ qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term.”

22. Madman in the Marketplace - 4 July 2008


thanks for those.

I’m so frustrated and disgusted by the intellectual and spiritual cowardice and dishonesty in this culture. All of this tap dancing and bullshit whining about how abortions aren’t “good”, but the end result of all of this superstitious BS is …




Why doesn’t that matter? Children will lose their mothers. Husbands will lose their wives. Parents will lose their daughters. Lovers will lose their companions. Society will lose another source of talent and joy and potential and …

… why why why why can’t the cowards that run this country say/confront/articulate this?

I treasure the women I know. The thought of them being less free than me fills me with rage. This is all so damned painfully obvious to me.

This topic comes up and it’s all I can do to not punch the idiots who’ve swallowed the agitprop.

23. Madman in the Marketplace - 4 July 2008

Bay, # 21

thanks for yet another reason for me to enthusiastically trash that fucking fraud Obama. Fuck him.

24. bayprairie - 4 July 2008


like to say its my pleasure, but it isn’t. and i agree. screw that jerk.

concert was good i’m guessing? prolly don’t even need to ask.

and thanks to ms x for the link in the last thread!

25. moiv - 4 July 2008


By November, he’ll be sounding like the Texas antis who outlawed 3rd-tri abortion here for any reason whatever except imminent death or “severe and irreversible brain damage” … because “You can live without anything, except a brain.”

26. Madman in the Marketplace - 4 July 2008
27. Madman in the Marketplace - 4 July 2008

24 – yup, Lucinda and Alejandro were wonderful.

25 – Obama is such a fucking disappointment. I’m not sure WHY I’m disappointed … part of me knew better, but … jeebus, what a fucking hack. He makes me miss Dukakis.

28. moiv - 4 July 2008

“Mental distress” is such a crock. Why, everybody knows that suicide is healthy for pregnant women, just like taking folic acid.

29. moiv - 4 July 2008


NARAL’s comment on Obama’s position:

In a statement, NARAL Pro-Choice said Obama’s magazine interview is consistent with Roe v. Wade.

“Sen. Obama has consistently said he supports the tenets set forth by Roe, and has made strong statements against President Bush’s Federal Abortion Ban, which does not have an exception to protect a woman’s health,” the organization’s statement said.

The view from National Right to Life:

David N. O’Steen, the executive director of National Right to Life, said Obama’s remarks to the magazine “are either quite disingenuous or they reflect that Obama does not know what he is talking about.”

“You cannot believe that abortion should not be allowed for mental health reasons and support Roe v Wade,” O’Steen said.

How much worse can it get when the Great Progressive Hope and his girlfriends at NARAL have me agreeing with the hack from NRTL?

That was a rhetorical question. I don’t really want to know.

30. marisacat - 4 July 2008

Jeralyn has a thread going on the mental stress, obama foot in mouth thing, doesn’t he know to wait? LOL

LOL One of my nicknames for him is “parochial school boy” so wants to please. over and over.

31. marisacat - 4 July 2008
32. marisacat - 4 July 2008

From the Jeralyn thread:

A leading anti-choice group says Obama either is being disingenous or he’s or ignorant. (Note they don’t mention the third possibility which is that he’s on their side):

David N. O’Steen, the executive director of National Right to Life, said Obama’s remarks to the magazine “are either quite disingenuous or they reflect that Obama does not know what he is talking about.”

“You cannot believe that abortion should not be allowed for mental health reasons and support Roe v Wade,” O’Steen said.


Also gather “the Coastal Gardner” is under siege on Big Sur… he is refusing to leave his house, but under mandatory evacuation. again, sounds like a lot is going to go tonight.

33. marisacat - 4 July 2008


moiv… sorry, I repeated O’Steen… it was just so on point.

34. marisacat - 4 July 2008

Like so many of them, he is fucking nuts. AND IGNORANT.

We educated generations to ineffective, but cruel, dumbness. Anoher pair of examples (he and the wif). And we have had so many…

35. moiv - 4 July 2008


From the TalkLeft thread.

don’t worry… (5.00 / 7) (#31)
by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:32:27 PM EST
tomorrow his campaign will just explain that his position hasn’t changed. He just spoke “inartfully” on Thursday.

Or he will explain the “nuanced” difference of “distress”.

I’m sure his minions are already explaining that “distress” really isn’t much of anything toworry about.

TimNCGuy has been paying attention.

36. marisacat - 4 July 2008

sorry Madman, jsut found your comment #22 in Moderation..
my error, it throws all numerical references back to comments by “1”

sorry for the confusion.

37. marisacat - 4 July 2008

hmm an interview with Michael Hudson on Dissident Voice. Some interesting answers on economics, taxation, foreclosure etc.

38. moiv - 4 July 2008

How exactly is his statement in opposition to Roe (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:


Seems like it pretty much reinforces Roe to me…

Know the Facts about Barack Obama.

by Elise on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:17:37 AM CDT


(2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
moiv, Elise, Lying eyes

“I don’t think that ‘mental distress’ qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy…”

(emphasis mine)

I don’t know about knocking down Roe, but that’s just fucking dumb, IMHO.

blind idealism is pure folly when you are standing on a precipice ~edrie

by Marcus Tullius on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:20:52 AM CDT


You are correct (0+ / 0-)

Obama’s statement completely disregards established law as defined by Roe v Wade and its companion ruling, Doe v. Bolton.

The 1973 landmark abortion case, Roe v. Wade, established a right to an abortion, and a concurrent case, Doe v. Bolton, established that medical judgments about the need for an abortion could include physical, emotional and psychological health factors.

It’s a hell of a note when the presumptive nominee of the Democratic Party makes National Right to Life look principled by comparison.

David N. O’Steen, the executive director of National Right to Life, said Obama’s remarks to the magazine “are either quite disingenuous or they reflect that Obama does not know what he is talking about.”

“You cannot believe that abortion should not be allowed for mental health reasons and support Roe v Wade,” O’Steen said.

by moiv on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:30:14 AM CDT


39. moiv - 4 July 2008

Obama tacks right on abortion now?

Any issues left for him to “finesse”? Iraq, FISA, now this. No hot button is safe from the Messiah’s nuance.

Except for amnesty, of course. He’s still rock solid on that.


I eagerly await Doug Kmiec’s next 5,000-word hosanna to Obama spinning this very marginal show of restraint as some epochal remaking of the abortion debate in America. Exit question: Clear your mind for a moment, then let yourself absorb the constellation of centrist blasphemies uttered of late by His Holiness and how any one of them would have been poisonous during the primary. Now, tell me: What do you think Hillary’s thinking right now?

40. marisacat - 4 July 2008

SF Gate report on Big Sur and Goleta (Santa Barbara Co) fires

“The firefighters who are here have done great, but they don’t have the resources to fight a fire this size,” Priano said.

Air tankers can unload as much as 3,000 gallons of water and fire retardant gel on a hot spot, according to Langeberg, compared to roughly 1,000 gallons for a helicopter. But neither type of aircraft can be used at night, she said – and even though there currently are seven air tankers assigned to the area, the Basin Complex fire is pushing in fits and starts to the east, north and south.

“Throughout the day we’re making decisions on where resources are needed,” Langeberg said. “It’s constantly changing.”

Another problem is that the Basin Complex is just one of 27 major clusters of wildfires burning in California.

Among the fastest-moving blazes is the 2,400-acre Gap Fire in Santa Barbara County, which started late Tuesday on the coast side of the Santa Ynez Mountains between Highways 101 and 154. Officials said the blaze is chewing up chaparral and brush that haven’t burned in more than 50 years.

41. marisacat - 4 July 2008


fucking pope wanna be.

42. moiv - 4 July 2008

Steve Ertelt at Lifenews chimes in — his customary C&P plagiarism …with a twist.

Pro-abortion presidential candidate Barack Obama is again weighing in on the abortion issue and says that the normal “mental distress” that accompanies a pregnancy is no reason for women to have late-term abortions. The position seemingly makes him side with pro-life advocates, but Obama has opposed a ban on late-term abortions.

43. marisacat - 4 July 2008

LOL the comments at Hot Air are a hoot. They are just laughing at him from every corner. Bring back the dead Seal of State I say!

What do you think Hillary Moulitsas/Matthews/Sullivan/Olbermann’s thinking right now?

“To change one’s mind, on everythig, several times, is being nuanced, flexible, erudite, open-mined.”

44. moiv - 4 July 2008


It’s almost incomprehensible to me that people can be going about the daily business of living while surrounded by all that.

Here our natural disasters blow through in the course of an afternoon. A few hours of tornadic terror, and then it’s all over but the cleanup.

45. marisacat - 4 July 2008

This comment cites Doe [separate case from Roe] and that he does not know what he talkinga bout. Which is right.

It would be , “bring back the old panels”, as I understand it.. and they were declared UNCONSTITUTIONAL>

Now he taught what to whom?

46. marisacat - 4 July 2008


well these are long burning. And it will be weeks. A fire captain or commander stood at Nepenthe, the deck I used a photo of just recently, looking out over the hills and ridges to the sea, I looked at him closely. I don’t think he thinks it can be saved.

47. marisacat - 4 July 2008

hmm in relation to 38 and 45

here is wiki link on Doe


48. marisacat - 4 July 2008

yeah pretty clearly he would want to dismantle Doe (from wiki)

The Georgia law in question permitted abortion only in cases of rape, severe fetal deformity, or the possibility of severe or fatal injury to the mother. Other restrictions included the requirement that the procedure be approved in writing by three physicians and by a special committee of the staff of the hospital where the abortion was to be performed. In addition, only Georgia residents could receive abortions under this statutory scheme: non-residents could not have an abortion in Georgia under any circumstances.

Broad definition of health

The Court’s opinion in Doe v. Bolton stated that a woman may obtain an abortion after viability, if necessary to protect her “health.” The Court defined “health” broadly:

“ Whether, in the words of the Georgia statute, “an abortion is necessary” is a professional judgment that the Georgia physician will be called upon to make routinely. We agree with the District Court, 319 F. Supp., at 1058, that the medical judgment may be exercised in the light of all factors – physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman’s age – relevant to the wellbeing of the patient. All these factors may relate to health. ”

This determination that abortion will be available all the way up until birth, for a wide variety of reasons, has proven to be controversial — “at least as controversial as its holding respecting the period prior to viability.”[2]

hmm he taught what to whom again?

49. marisacat - 4 July 2008

LOL the Hot Air thread is very clever… someone quotes a long section from his 2007 speech to Planned Parenthood… he claims he taught Roe as part of Con law. In fact he claims it was frotn and center of his teaching Reproductive freedom.

OK! He taught what to whom again?????????????????

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh. Cuz you KNWO the R are.

50. marisacat - 4 July 2008

I HOPE Obama keeps CHANGEing rightward–at this rate, he might end up to the right of Reagan.

jgapinoy on July 3, 2008 at 8:12 PM

51. marisacat - 4 July 2008

Too funny…

I was on a panel at the Aspen Ideas Festival in Colorado this week when Newsweek’s Jonathan Alter asked me, “Is Obama a sellout?” The question isn’t whether he is a sellout or not—it’s about what demands are made by grass-roots social movements of those who would represent them. The question is, who are these candidates responding to, answering to?

Amy Goodman on TruthDig

52. marisacat - 4 July 2008

LOL from the Jeralyn thread, I included the link tot he comments as she has an embedded link:

Hmmm, maybe next he’ll define (5.00 / 5) (#45)

by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:40:04 PM EST

when life begins. I’m all ears on that one . . .

He’s already said he’s confused about that (5.00 / 8) (#72)
by Jeralyn on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:54:29 PM EST

Q: Do you personally believe that life begins at conception?

A: This is something that I have not come to a firm resolution on. I think it’s very hard to know what that means, when life begins. Is it when a cell separates? Is it when the soul stirs? So I don’t presume to know the answer to that question. What I know is that there is something extraordinarily powerful about potential life and that that has a moral weight to it that we take into consideration when we’re having these debates.

Source: 2008 Democratic Compassion Forum at Messiah College Apr 13, 2008

More here.

[ Parent ]

So, basically,, (5.00 / 2) (#100)

by Grace on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:10:02 PM EST
he once again proclaims that he has no personal beliefs.

No wonder it is so hard to pin this guy down on anything.

[ Parent ]

That’s what I’m waiting for . . . (none / 0) (#93)
by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:05:44 PM EST

the confusion to clear up. Thanks for the link! I watched the compassion forum, but I missed the “soul stirs” line. I wonder which “soul” he is referring to . . . ?

[ Parent ]

fucking born again.

53. marisacat - 4 July 2008

hmm From the actual interview. Such a slippery fellow. “education” but he does not say SEX education. Pretty clear on the failing abstinence tho.

Strang: You’ve said you’re personally against abortion and would like to see a reduction in the number of abortions under your administration. So, as president, how would do you propose accomplishing that?

Obama: I think we know that abortions rise when unwanted pregnancies rise. So, if we are continuing what has been a promising trend in the reduction of teen pregnancies, through education and abstinence education giving good information to teenagers. That is important—emphasizing the sacredness of sexual behavior to our children. I think that’s something that we can encourage. I think encouraging adoptions in a significant way. I think the proper role of government. So there are ways that we can make a difference, and those are going to be things I focus on when I am president.

The ”sacredness of sexual behavior”. Oh right..hmm mmm, Got it. Jesus is in bed with EVERYONE.

You know I am getting tired. When a ton of R and Winger booms landed on BillHill… I really rejected several parts of it. Then a few years ago, I gave up. Who cares. Go the easy way, believe it all. Why sort thru. Really? Why bother?

So. Poor Barack. IMO Guilty of all the shit swrling around. I am tired of his fucking problems. They are too big. And he is woefully in effective dealing with any of them.

Bzzt. Fail.

54. Heather-Rose Ryan - 4 July 2008

52 –

What I know is that there is something extraordinarily powerful about potential life and that that has a moral weight to it

Sure, there is something extraordinarily powerful about “potential life”. Those of us who can give birth to children are extraordinarily powerful and have more “moral weight” than the rest of humanity when it comes to deciding how – or if – we exercise that power.

Oh I’m sorry, Barack, isn’t that what you meant?

55. NYCO - 4 July 2008

Obama: Position-Change You Can Believe In

56. ms_xeno - 4 July 2008

“potential life” only matters until it’s somewhere else. Then it’s moral to drop bombs on it and/or kill it en masse with sanctions.

Fuck you, Obama. A thousand times over. Fuck. You.


I’m all for pushback.


Too bad nobody running the big choice orgs seems to be. Just keep shoveling money into the Golden Man’s maw and singing “When He Hit Me, It Felt Just Like A Kiss” from Carousel. Whoopee.

57. JJB - 4 July 2008

Jesse Helms has croaked.

A real waste of DNA, he was.

58. mattes - 4 July 2008

Please…help me understand why being against late term abortions is wrong.

And I have always been for freedom to choose.

59. marisacat - 4 July 2008

The fire is only 5 percent contained, and officials don’t expect it to be fully contained until July 30. More than 1,600 firefighters are attacking the blaze, which has destroyed 20 structures and cost $13.4 millions so far.

In the town of Big Sur, located in a canyon north of the fire, most of the shops have been abandoned and the streets are empty of people and cars. A 39-mile stretch of Highway 1, with Big Sur right in the middle, is closed.

But a fire burning south of Big Sur, near Goleta in Santa Barbara County, is the state’s top priority at the moment. The Gap Fire has burned about 5,400 acres and threatens more than 2,600 homes, with about 1,700 residences under mandatory evacuation, said county spokesman William Boyer. The county is giving away free face masks to area residents.

In Big Sur, the forecast for today calls for milder winds than Thursday. But Evenson said several fire crews are scheduled to leave the front lines this weekend after working 14-day shifts, and it’s possible they won’t be replaced as resources are sent to Santa Barbara County instead.

60. marisacat - 4 July 2008



what do you mean by “late term abortion”??? Remembering that an abortion is medical procedure.

61. Heather-Rose Ryan - 4 July 2008

58 – because it’s hideously immoral to force a woman to give birth to a child against her will.

Why not force people to donate organs? It would save lives, right?

62. Madman in the Marketplace - 4 July 2008

# 58 – it’s a made up political agitprop description of a MEDICAL PROCEDURE. I no more care or need to know why a woman chooses an abortion late in her pregnancy than I have the right to know why an another patient chooses a risky heart procedure. It’s none of mine or your’s or her minister’s or fucking Obama’s business.

63. marisacat - 4 July 2008

Of course there is an excellent thread here, loaded with hatred, viciousness and malevolent misinformation.

64. Madman in the Marketplace - 4 July 2008
65. marisacat - 4 July 2008

It’s appalling that Gonzales and a few others, Bill Bennett for another, are not shunned.

66. Madman in the Marketplace - 4 July 2008
67. marisacat - 4 July 2008

I think I am most entertained and or appalled by the sloppy thinkers around who expect Michelle who flaps endlessly on her ”mothering”, to be the one to set Obama straght on abortion.

A laugh and a half, that one.

68. marisacat - 4 July 2008

California should secede.

69. Madman in the Marketplace - 4 July 2008
70. marisacat - 4 July 2008

LOL What a hoot! NYT has an editorial on the New and Not Improved Obama.

This gave me a chuckle (so much for the fucking MOVEMENT, enshrined in an altar)

Now there seems to be a new Barack Obama on the hustings. First, he broke his promise to try to keep both major parties within public-financing limits for the general election. His team explained that, saying he had a grass-roots-based model and that while he was forgoing public money, he also was eschewing gold-plated fund-raisers. These days he’s on a high-roller hunt.

Even his own chief money collector, Penny Pritzker, suggests that the magic of $20 donations from the Web was less a matter of principle than of scheduling. “We have not been able to have much of the senator’s time during the primaries, so we have had to rely more on the Internet,” she explained as she and her team busily scheduled more than a dozen big-ticket events over the next few weeks at which the target price for quality time with the candidate is more than $30,000 per person.

Again, people should live iwth their Jesus.

71. bayprairie - 4 July 2008


if your interested in the issue, as opposed to the political propaganda broadcast by both political parties, i suggest you start reading here:

Bolder Abortion Clinic
Specializing in Late Abortion For Fetal Disorders

Partial Birth Abortion Controversy

Statement by Dr Hern

While about 1% of all abortions are performed after about 20 weeks of pregnancy, only about .03%, or fewer than 500, are performed after 26 weeks. The majority of these are now performed by me or one of my medical colleagues. These abortions are almost always performed for the most tragic reasons of severe fetal anomaly, genetic disorder, or immediate risk to the woman’s life. They are not performed for frivolous reasons, contrary to statements by those opposed to abortion.

you would also be wise to google “moiv” and begin reading every post shes put up, or as much as you have time for.

that’ll ’bout do it.

72. ms_xeno - 4 July 2008

#71: Nah, bay. I love the idea of being forced to carry an already-dead baby for the full nine months.

Mental health, schmental health. Mustn’t disturb the sacred post-sperm until Jeebus’ self-appointed spokes-dick says it’s okey-doke. I fully plan to treat the whole thing as a chance for spiritual growth. Oh, and to have the dead baby turned into an embalmed centerpiece for the dining room when it’s all over. Maybe cover it in bronze or something.

73. marisacat - 4 July 2008

I came across something soemthing last night that I had not heard of … in 1998 ALL abortions were halted in WI, a legistlation out of the assembly ro senate or whatever the rubes that run us call themselves, was so extreme that abortion doctors and clinics withdrew from performing abortions, the wording could have landed them in prison for life.

A court struck it down… and the doctors and clinics started up again.

That is the game, from what I have read. PRETEND to go after “extreme” doctors or ”murdering” slut women mothers… and achieve a total ban.

74. bayprairie - 4 July 2008

#71: Nah, bay. I love the idea of being forced to carry an already-dead baby for the full nine months.

well it appears that if our savior obama (and others who sare the peculiar mendacity) has his professed way you better not let it upset you much. with the xtreme mental distress and suicidal impulses due to forced birthing a corpse no longer being considered a valid medical condition to be addressed by surgical means, and all.

just smile and be happy knowing you made millions of xtian fundie loons right with god.

75. mattes - 4 July 2008

These abortions are almost always performed for the most tragic reasons of severe fetal anomaly, genetic disorder, or immediate risk to the woman’s life.

Yes yes….I understand this part. But I guess if it’s a healthy child and it gets to the point it can feel pain, then I feel uncomfortable with that.

I am not medically qualified to define late term? When it’s viable? And healthy.

This has always been a sticking point for me. And I don’t believe in a personal god or am overly religious.

I do have a problem with causing any “being” physical pain.

76. mattes - 4 July 2008

I just read the
STATEMENTof Warren M. Hern, and I have a better understanding.

Words are powerful images, I can see why they are trying to redefine the procedure.

Thanks for the information from several of you.

77. mattes - 4 July 2008

One more thing….I have always thought that the people that petition at abortion clinics are nothing more than terrorists.

78. bayprairie - 4 July 2008

dr hern is quite the guy!

79. ms_xeno - 4 July 2008

#74. Never fear, bay. The pro-Obama pro-choice champions are on the case. Strongly-worded objections have been posted to his very own webiste warning him to back off from his extreme position or else…

Uh, or else…

The champions will post more strongly-worded objections and then vote for him anyway.

[three cheers]

80. wu ming - 4 July 2008

68 – i tend to agree, although i’m not convinced that we wouldn’t run ourselves into the ground if we did. less religious blather, but just as much short-sightedness WRT planning for the predictable consequences of our actions. i suppose president schwarzeneggar or president wilson would be somewhat of a step up from bush.

in a decade or so, as the state demographics continue to change, it might be worth it. right now, the older wealthy white homeowners still run the show in many critical ways.

they’d bomb the shit out of us.

81. marisacat - 4 July 2008

They will whisper louder and stomp on his toes. When they get the chance.

what a joke.

82. marisacat - 4 July 2008


oh yeah when Karel on KGO talk radio took it up, he added the question, would they bomb us? Hell yes. The Federal governmnet would move on any state wishing to secede.

Oh few governors have been peaches. Nor have Dem mayors from the machine in SF been peaches.

But I think as long as GWoT goes on, that is what hte Feds will be about.

83. marisacat - 4 July 2008

new post……….


…………. 8) ………….

84. Arcturus - 4 July 2008

81. & expect more of “And going forward, some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That’s ok.

just so everyone understands each other

85. marisacat - 4 July 2008

have a a laugh… booman declared himself ”insulted” by parts of the obama response.


86. aemd - 4 July 2008

#75 “I am not medically qualified to define late term? When it’s viable? And healthy”

That’s why the decision should be left up to qualified doctors and the women who are going through the procedure, not politicians, not clergy and not the he-man woman haters club. Don’t ya think?

Damn, Obama and the Chicago machine must be pretty cocksure of their support among the base to be so openly swingin’ to the hard authoritarian right. It doesn’t take much study to figure out who will be selecting his SC and lower court judges. LOL.

Obama, the patron saint of hope, change and wiretapping. 😎


87. marisacat - 4 July 2008

Damn, Obama and the Chicago machine must be pretty cocksure of their support among the base to be so openly swingin’ to the hard authoritarian right. It doesn’t take much study to figure out who will be selecting his SC and lower court judges. LOL.

hmm be interesting to watch, no?

On to Economics 202 with professore, he hits 4 Southern cities + Ohio next week.


88. Arcturus - 4 July 2008

85. is there an over/under pool on how long ’til his ‘look at the choice’ exhortations commence again?

(wasn’t he one of the ‘could care less’ about disaffected HC supporters? gonna ‘win win WIN!!!!’

89. marisacat - 4 July 2008


Boober seemed to be all over the map, from declaring war til people gave up and came to BamamMama, to being depressed, tired, mad, in “deep thought”, and so on… but also he was reminded in some thread that he had declared he would never vote for Hillary. So………

It must be tough to be all ego and no political smarts, at all.

The latest is his cadre of what I call the Hangerites. They post bloody hangers and declare that if you don’t vote for BamaRama you are .. etc.

Kinda muddled now. If he takes a direct run at Doe LOL Fukcing born again.

90. aemd - 4 July 2008

Yes, it is very interesting. Not just the usual movers, shakers and moneymakers but also the online support scrambling to champion his constantly changing positions. My advise to them, run right young bloggers, run right. 🙂


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