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Are we there yet? 14 August 2008

Posted by marisacat in 2008 Election, Culture of Death, Democrats, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, WAR!.

ddogged out

This feels like one of the longest Augusts on record. Not even half way thru…….

Here is a report in The Independent (full text) that should have some people chewing their lips off… I remember when California passed this mark, “minorities”, as a whole, surpassed the white population… In Cali, with 36% of the demographic Latino, I see it as land reclamation. Works for me.

American whites ‘will be minority by 2042’

Thursday, 14 August 2008

White people will no longer make up a majority of Americans by 2042, according to new US government projections. That’s eight years sooner than previous estimates, made in 2004.

The United States has been growing more diverse for decades, but the process has sped up through immigration and higher birth rates among minority residents, especially Hispanics.

It is also growing older.

“The white population is older and very much centered around the aging baby boomers who are well past their high fertility years,” said William Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank.

“The future of America is epitomised by the young people today. They are basically the melting pot we are going to see in the future.”

The Census Bureau released population projections until 2050, based on rates for births, deaths and immigration.

They are subject to big revisions, depending on immigration policy, cultural changes and natural or manmade disasters.

The US has nearly 305 million people today. The population is projected to hit 400 million in 2039 and 439 million in 2050.

White non-Hispanics make up about two-thirds of the population, but only 55 per cent of those younger than 5.

By 2050, whites will make up 46 per cent of the population and blacks will make up 15 per cent, a relatively small increase from today. Hispanics, who make up about 15 per cent of the population today, will account for 30 per cent in 2050, according to the new projections.

Asians, which make up about 5 per cent of the population, are projected to increase to 9 per cent by 2050.

The population 85 and older is projected to more than triple by 2050, to 19 million.


UPDATE, 5:56 am

I cannot restrain myself… I just saw this at The Trail / Wapo and …


Va. Gov. Tim Kaine, Richmond Mayor L. Douglas Wilder and former Va. governor Mark Warner at a Virgnia political dinner earlier this year. (Linda Davidson/The Washington Post)

LOL we are so blessed.  I am reminded that one of the underlying bitches and moans from Meteor Blades about this site, was that I complain more about Democrats than I do about R.  Yeah I do.  What a shock.

Tho I think with our “feeding mission” to Georgia, Kaine moves down the list and the likes of Biden (who tried to sell himself to Southern states earlier in this cycle as a sympathetic friend from Delaware, a former slave holding state, Whoo hoo!) move up the list.  IIRC Biden is also a Catholic.  Probably that works for Ob.



1. marisacat - 14 August 2008

So. Touring the morning news and spews… Georgia – S Ossetia – Abkhazia – Russo-US contretemps looking like a much bigger “feeding mission” to bequeath the next pretzeldent than Somalia was in ’92

President Saakashvili today told Georgians that the US military was moving in to take over control of the country’s air and seaports — which would be a pretty big deal since much of the country still appears to be an active war zone.

And about five minutes later the Pentagon said he didn’t know what he was talking about.

“We are not looking to, nor do we need to, take control of any air or seaports to conduct this mission,” said Geoff Morrell, Pentagon press secretary. “The role of the U.S. military is strictly to facilitate the delivery of humanitarian assistance to the victims of this conflict.” — via TPM

I feel so secure supporting Saakashvili.

2. marisacat - 14 August 2008

left i on the news picked up on a tidbit of a quote from Saakashvili.

3. NYCO - 14 August 2008

On the shooting death of Bill Gwatney:

State Rep. Janet Johnson started to cry when she talked about Gwatney. “This is like something you would see in New York or Pennsylvania or California, but not here,” Johnson said.

Yeah, people are shooting up churches and ripping unborn babies out of wombs in New York all the time.

4. wilfred - 14 August 2008

NYCO, exactly. The heartland is where the shootings (and the meth labs!) are. I feel safer in NY and CA any day of the week than in redstate Ammurrica.

Do these people not see the violence in their own backyards? Tim McVeigh was the canary in the coalmine (or was it Charles Whitman in the UT tower?).

5. JJB - 14 August 2008

Russia has announced it’s plans to carve up Georgia, presenting Condi with a fait accompli:

President Dmitri Medvedev of Russia on Thursday said that Russia would act as an international guarantor of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the two pro-Russian enclaves at the center of the crisis that have long desired separation from Georgia.

As Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice headed to the region for discussions on the crisis and to show support for Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, the Russian position seemed to be a direct challenge to President Bush who said a day earlier that he “insists that the sovereign and territorial integrity of Georgia be respected.”

Meanwhile in Georgia, Russian forces briefly allowed the Georgian police to return to the city of Gori on Thursday morning as the Russian troops appeared to be preparing to pull out. But joint patrols were canceled three hours later and the city returned to Russian control. In Poti, a Black Sea port further west, Russian tanks patrolled the city, a sign that Russian forces remained in control of key parts of Georgian territory.

Mr. Medvedev said he would support the independence aspirations of South Ossetians and Abkhazians if they were in accordance with the United Nations Charter, international conventions of 1966 and the Helsinki Act on Security and Cooperation in European.

“You have been defending your land and the right is on your side,” Mr. Medvedev said, at a meeting with leaders of the two breakaway regions. [He certainly is an obedient little doggie, isn’t he? – JJB]

As she traveled to the region, Ms. Rice was due to arrive first in France to meet the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, who brokered the cease-fire between Russia and Georgia, in the president’s summer residence in southern France, at 3 p.m., local time, Mr. Sarkozy’s office said. She would later travel to Tbilisi, the Georgian capital.


In Gori, which was the focus of international protest after Russia shelled it and occupied it on Wednesday, the joint patrols on Thursday suggested a cooling of tensions in the city.. . . It was not clear why the joint patrols failed, but it appeared that personnel on the ground were in conflict. Around 10 a.m. Thursday, a Russian Army major gave orders to Georgian and Russian police officers to patrol in pairs. But this clearly did not last. “We had to go or there would have been shooting,” said a Georgian officer, who would not give his name.


In an interview on Ekho Moskvy, Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, said Georgia’s territorial integrity was “de facto limited because of the war,” and said any agreement suggesting otherwise would be “deeply insulting” to the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

He also said he was not worried about the threat of international isolation, Interfax reported.

“I don’t know how they are going to isolate us,” he said. [Translation: “Hey EU and NATO members, you want to get tough with us? Enjoy your winter without our natural gas deliveries!” – JJB]

Lavrov has also been quoted as saying “One can forget about any talk about Georgia’s territorial integrity because, I believe, it is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state.” The Russians have also apparently taken charge of the city of Poti, one of the countries few seaports, and which is not in one of the breakaway provinces.

6. marisacat - 14 August 2008

When there was some recent school shooting, a few years ago, I landed on a report reminding that decades ago, a “heartland” farmer blew up a school, killing 45 people, to protest being taxed for public ed.

But you know how history and being aware of reality goes in this finger pointing country.

7. NYCO - 14 August 2008

Clarification… my original comment, of course, could certainly apply to abortions – but that’s happening all over the U.S. I was referring to those gruesome murders where mentally unbalanced women try to steal pregnant women’s babies. Most if not all of these seem to happen in the Midwest or Texas.

And no, I don’t think people who make these statements have any self-awareness about their own culture at all, much less awareness of how things are in other parts of the country.

(Although it must be said that Tim McVeigh was a native of suburban western NY…)

It isn’t fair to claim that gun violence by frustrated people is a “Southern” phenomenon, but it sure is dopey to think of it as a purely Northeastern one.

8. marisacat - 14 August 2008

I think Georgia lost the war. Or, will be losing it for sometime. Depending on who shoots whom and for how long.

9. marisacat - 14 August 2008

Oh well… on abortion, CA long ago legislated not to reveal numbers (sometimes we actually appear to possess working brains out here). Works for me and must drive the fucked anti abortionists crazy.

10. NYCO - 14 August 2008

6. That incident happened in Bath, Michigan in 1927… a rather horrifying crime that has curiously been wiped from the national memory.


But the same dreary story: Disgruntled white guy who hates the government decides to make a “statement.”

11. JJB - 14 August 2008

It seems that the delegation McCain is sending to Georgia consists of Lindsay Graham and Joe Lieberman:

Russia has decided not to withdraw from Georgia after all, its foreign minister says to “forget about any talk about Georgia’s territorial integrity,” and NATO powers are scrambling to figure out how to end the war.

But don’t worry, because John McCain has a plan: Joe Lieberman and Lindsay Graham are on their way.


What, exactly, McCain hopes to accomplish by packing his two closest Senate pals off to a war zone isn’t entirely clear. Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice is also on her way to Tblisi, with the ability to negotiate on behalf of the U.S. government (instead of just the McCain campaign). Graham and Lieberman are, like McCain, members of the Senate Armed Services Committee; they frequently accompany him on trips to the Middle East and joined him on a mission to Colombia and Mexico earlier this summer.

But considering that one of the main lines of attack Republicans are pushing against Obama these days is that he’s presumptuously declared himself president before Election Day, it’s a little curious that the GOP nominee thinks sending campaign surrogates to visit the war is a good idea.

Then again, as Marc Ambinder points out, officials in Tblisi aren’t too impressed with McCain’s passionate “today, we are all Georgians” rhetoric. “Yesterday, I heard Sen. McCain say, ‘We are all Georgians now,'” Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili told CNN on Wednesday. “Well, very nice, you know, very cheering for us to hear that, but OK, it’s time to pass from this. From words to deeds.”

It’s also unclear why the Bush administration is allowing these two to go to Georgia on what is, at best, a bit of grandstanding that can only detract from Condi’s ability to conduct negotiations, and at worst, harmful meddling that could make a bad situation much, much worse.

That’s at Salon.com, so you might have to click through an ad before getting to the piece.

12. marisacat - 14 August 2008

LOL I so want to see what the limp Dems say if Lieberman has a speaking psot at the RNC.

Nancy dodged the question (any question on Liebchen) completely on Ronn Owens on KGO yesterday. Acted as tho she had no involvment at all. No 3 elelcted politician in the country, and no question, a party leader, for 20+ years.

But, she said it was up to the Dems in the senate and what they “might do” when they have a bigger majority.

Such strength.

13. marisacat - 14 August 2008


thanks NYCO, I could not remember the location or the year.

14. JJB - 14 August 2008

Another rhetorical goody from Russian FM Lavrov: “We understand that this current Georgian leadership is a special project of the United States, but one day the United States will have to choose between defending its prestige over a virtual project or real partnership [with Russia].”

And from Gen. Vyacheslav Nikolayevich of the Pskov Airborne Division: “What can the Americans do to us? A big country like Russia doesn’t fear America.”

The old Soviet apparatchiks and generals were a lot more temperate in their language. This blustering, which is being matched by BushCo., reminds me of the moronic, inflammatory bombast that issued from Vienna and Berlin in July 1914.

15. JJB - 14 August 2008

On a domestic note, here’s more news from the Heartland:

Des Moines police say a man holding his three children hostage is dead, apparently committing suicide.

The hostage situation started Thursday morning in the same neighborhood where two people were killed. The situation unfolded about 6:30 a.m. on the city’s north side.

Police surrounded the house where the man was holding the children. Officers stormed the house around 8:15 a.m., grabbed the children and took them safely out of the house. Sgt. Vince Valdez says the man holding them is dead, and he apparently committed suicide.

Valdez says a man and woman were killed. He did not have any details about the deaths or if they were connected to the hostage situation.

16. NYCO - 14 August 2008

14. Shorter Russian statement: “Oh yeah? You and what army?”

Which was the inevitable outcome of misusing and overextending our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Russians are no longer afraid of anything. Thanks, Dubya! Your screwup of Poppy’s legacy is now complete.

17. NYCO - 14 August 2008

This is illuminating:


The week began with questions about how far the Russian military was advancing into Georgia, but that proved to be an imprecise way to address the issue. The Russians, after all, weren’t simply taking control of more and more of the country in a rush to Tbilisi, as Georgian leaders warned. Rather, they were operating more fluidly, by quickly withdrawing from areas like Senaki, only to return later.

As if that less-than-straightforward approach were not enough, Russia’s operations were often accompanied by mash-ups of conflicting reports from the ground and an endless cycle of Georgian claims that Moscow denied. The latest example was reported by Bloomberg News this morning, concerning a major port on the Black Sea:

“The Russian troops have returned to Poti,” Georgian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Khatuna Iosava said by telephone. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of Russia’s General Staff, said Russia has no troops in Poti.

The New York Times reported sightings today of three Russian tanks in Poti, where they were said to be shuttling back and forth to Senaki, a 30-minute drive away.

Seems as if the Russian military did learn something from the mujaheddin after all — how to conduct guerrilla warfare and freak out your adversaries with just a few quickly mobile horsemen tanks.

As appalled as I am by Russia’s aggressive behavior, you can’t say they aren’t completely pwning the situation. Is it wrong for me to feel a certain admiration? I mean, when it comes to their thugs vs. our thugs, at least their thugs are smarter.

18. marisacat - 14 August 2008

IOZ is a laugh today… he looks at recent warblings from Kevin Drum and scribbles from Harold Meyerson (this snip from the Meyerson look-over):

[W]ith Georgia (a democracy, with caveats) invading a secessionist province and Russia (a democracy, with caveats) invading Georgia, and the United States (a democracy, with caveats) occupying Iraq and Afghanistan and eyeing up Iran (a democracy, with caveats), and India (a democracy, with caveats) and Pakistan (a democracy, with caveats), squinting at each other over the Hindu Kush, well, claims that “democracy” is naturally “benign” seem to be the height of absurdity. Meanwhile, what has this got to do with hall monitors?

The great foolishness at the heart of Western democratic evangelism is the belief in the uniformity of humanity, the idea that inside every gook is an American, as Mr. Kubrick memorably put it. It is the idea that underneath thousands of years of linguistic, social, economic, and cultural difference, we are all the same man

Plus, we just love to meddle.

19. JJB - 14 August 2008

With BushCo. possibly getting us involved in yet another war, it’s a good time to look at how the one that’s almost 7 years old is going. Not well:

Not far from here, just off the highway that was once the showpiece of the United States reconstruction effort in Afghanistan, three American soldiers and their Afghan interpreter were ambushed and killed seven weeks ago.

The soldiers — two of them members of the National Guard from New York — died as their vehicles were hit by mines and rocket-propelled grenades. At least one was dragged off and chopped to pieces, according to Afghan and Western officials. The body was so badly mutilated that at first the military announced that it had found the remains of two men, not one, in a nearby field.

The attack, on June 26, was notable not only for its brutality, but also because it came amid a series of spectacular insurgent attacks along the road that have highlighted the precariousness of the international effort to secure Afghanistan six years after the United States intervened to drive off the Taliban government.

Security in the provinces ringing the capital, Kabul, has deteriorated rapidly in recent months. Today it is as bad as at any time since the beginning of the war, as militants have surged into new areas and taken advantage of an increasingly paralyzed local government and police force and the thinly stretched international military presence here.. . . When it was refurbished several years ago, the Kabul-Kandahar highway was a demonstration of America’s commitment to building a new, democratic Afghanistan. A critical artery, the highway quite literally holds this country together.


For the United States and the NATO-led force in Afghanistan, it is an important supply route for the war effort, linking the two largest foreign military bases in the country, at Bagram and Kandahar, and a number of smaller bases along the way.

But today the highway is a dangerous gantlet of mines and attacks from insurgents and criminals, pocked with bomb craters and blown-up bridges.. . . The insurgents have made the route a main target, with the apparent aim of undercutting Afghanistan’s economy and infrastructure, said Gen. Zaher Azimi, the Afghan military spokesman.

The road has become the site of extreme carnage in the last six weeks, disrupting supply lines for American and NATO forces and tying down Afghan Army forces. One of the worst attacks occurred in Salar on June 24 when some 50 fuel tankers and food trucks carrying supplies for the United States military were ambushed.

20. JJB - 14 August 2008
21. NYCO - 14 August 2008

A bit more insight into why the Bath bombings so quickly fell out of the national memory: just a few days later, Lindbergh crossed the Atlantic, and that became The Big Story.

The Virginia Tech shootings also seemed to just disappear from the consciousness, it seems to me.

22. JJB - 14 August 2008

Pervez Musharraf has apparently decided to spend more time with his family:

Faced with desertions by his political supporters and the neutrality of the Pakistani military, President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan, an important ally of the United States, is expected to resign in the next few days rather than face impeachment charges, Pakistani politicians and Western diplomats said Thursday.

His departure from office is likely to unleash new instability in the country as the two main parties in the civilian government jockey for the division of power.

The details of how Mr. Musharraf would exit, and whether he would be able to stay in Pakistan — apparently his strong preference — or would seek residency abroad were now under discussion, the politicians said.

Maybe he’ll take up residence in India, as Muhammad Ali Jinnah’s daughter did.

Also, Billary and Obamarama have apparently reached some kind of deal on how the convention voting will be handled.

23. marisacat - 14 August 2008

maybe we could impeach bushiters under the laws in pakistan? adopting the laws of this or that country is working for multinationals…

24. marisacat - 14 August 2008

Too cute…

Poland and the US have signed a preliminary deal in Warsaw on Washington’s controversial missile shield, which has been opposed by Russia.

For more details: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news

25. marisacat - 14 August 2008

lenin has a good post up on The Russo – Georgian – S Ossetia war…

“The longer term effect of this war will be to sharpen the struggle for energy resources and to increase America’s determination to somehow rein in the local power. Russia will almost certainly throw its weight around a lot more in the Caucasus and Central Asia, probably arming and subsidizing local proxies. America and those who support it globally will flood regional allies with weapons and money, build up the ‘lily-pads’, support any potentially secessionist current within Russia, anything that might be destabilising and drain resources, try to lure the country into a war it can’t win, and so on. In short, as I’ve said, we’ve just watched the world become more dangerous. Those who thought it would improve stability if US power was ‘balanced’ by two, three, many imperialisms were mistaken. Watch the arms race resume, see that new generation of nuclear weapons proliferate, observe as the mini-conflicts and conflagrations sponsored by different players leave thousands dead, and witness the deadly escalation in global tensions . . . and then you’ll see what I mean.”

26. marisacat - 14 August 2008

And the main link to Lenin’s Tomb, as there are multiple posts on The War….


This rides at the top and made me laugh (farhter down he is not too kind to Ob and his rambles in the brambles of war commentary, btw)

Just shut up. posted by lenin

This is John “100 Year Reich” McCain:

“I want to have a dialogue with the Russians. I want them to get out of Georgian territory as quickly as possible. And I am interested in good relations between the United States and Russia. But in the twenty-first century, nations don’t invade other nations.”

Shut up, McCain. Just shut up.

Labels: and fucking nuts, full of shit, john mccain, stupid

7:13:00 PM

27. bayprairie - 14 August 2008

Bank analyst forecast Georgian crisis 2 days early

…Geoff Smith, a Kiev-based analyst for Renaissance Capital investment bank, had anticipated the Georgian move with uncanny prescience in an e-mail two days earlier to a fellow strategist.

“So whaddaya think? I say Saakashvili is going to ‘restore the territorial integrity of Georgia’ five minutes before the opening ceremony starts in Beijing and dare the Russians to invade while the games are on?” the note said…

the worst kind of lousy bet, one made with other people’s lives.

28. diane - 14 August 2008


Near Victorious are they?

The pendulum swings, Poland, ripe for the ‘sanctified’ pickings:

Outreach Missions:

….Ambassador Ashe discussed his third annual business outreach mission to the US last February to promote the Polish market among US businesses. The delegation, made up of AmCham Chairman Roman Rewald, Andrzej Kanthak, the then President of PAIiIZ, and Sebastian Mikosz of the International Group of Chambers of Commerce (IGCC), visited San Jose, CA [no drop in at the Hoover Institute?]; St. Louis and Atlanta. The mission reached more than 250 businesses and the Commercial Section actively follows up with many of them on opportunities in Poland. [from the Editor: read Chairman Rewald’s report on the mission in the From the Chairman feature on page 15 of the March issue of American Investor.] Ambassador Ashe says his next business outreach mission to the US is planned to take place in February 2008 when the delegation will travel to Portland, OR, Cincinnati and Boston.

The United States will have ‘Lead Nation Status’ at the annual MSPO Defense Industry Trade Show in Kielce this September. The Embassy is seeking to build on the excellent work concluded in defense industry cooperation to date and is looking forward to a highly successful event….”

Poland is ripe with investment opportunities for U.S. companies, according to a delegation of trade officials who met Tuesday with Fort Worth-area business executives.Members of the delegation, led by U.S. Ambassador Victor Ashe, said Poland has a growing, market-oriented economy, low-cost land> and an educated, hardworking population that welcomes [read: attracts like yellow jackets on raw meat] Americans [read mercenaries and multinationals]. But the country needs [a new master] outside investment to stimulate growth and modernization so it can continue its remarkable pace of development — 15 straight years of economic growth — since the fall of communism.”Poland is a far better foreign investment risk, I would suggest, than Latin America, Asia or China,” Ashe said at the meeting held at the Fort Worth International Center.The delegation, including representatives of Polish business groups, arrived in Fort Worth on Sunday as the first stop of a three-city U.S. itinerary. They left Tuesday for similar meetings in Chicago and Washington, D.C. ….

Bleakly humerous side note:

” Knoxville Mayor Victor Ashe Named to Fannie Mae Board [2001 to May 2004]
First Mayor To Serve on Board
July 23, 2001

President George W. Bush has announced the appointment of Knoxville Mayor Victor Ashe, a Past President and current member of the Executive Committee of The U.S. Conference of Mayors, to the Board of Directors of Fannie Mae, the nation’s largest source of financing for home mortgages. Ashe is the first mayor to serve on Fannie Mae’s Board of Directors.

In commenting on this appointment, Conference of Mayors Executive Director J. Thomas Cochran said, “The U.S. Conference of Mayors has developed a strong working relationship with Fannie Mae, which we know will be greatly enhanced by this important appointment.”

In his statement, Mayor Ashe said, “Fannie Mae has played a key role in reducing the price of home ownership for millions of Americans… As the first mayor to serve on the board, I believe that I can bring the local perspective to the Board about how important home ownership is to improving neighborhood conditions in cities across America.” [and we wouldn’t want to do that, would we]

“Affordable housing is a critical element of the city’s efforts to make neighborhoods cleaner and safer for all citizens. From individual home renovations to larger scale projects like Hope VI and the Affordable Housing Trust Fund, Knoxville has made great progress in making sure most people have a safe roof over their heads every night,” Ashe added.

29. marisacat - 14 August 2008

They are still pushing Duckworth. Hundreds of thousands of extra dollars from Rahm and an ad by ObamaRama in the run, could not do it for her, but push push push:

The two Senators [Biden and Bayh]– along with Gov. Richardson and Sen. Rockefeller– will echo Obama’s national security agenda in their Denver addresses.

Senate Majority Leader Reid will discuss Obama’s energy policy, veterans Rep. Murphy and Duckworth will lead a tribute to the troops. Sen. Salazar, Rep. Clyburn will also speak.

Obama’s still-unnamed veep will also speak Wednesday.

30. diane - 14 August 2008

Are we there yet?

Well almost, and may I say Cool!….. let some other race hold the reins, and blame, of inflicting misery (tired of occasionally wondering if I might have been born evil)…

Peel back the flesh and it’s all pink, and, too many times for comfort: frightening to behold….

31. Intermittent Bystander - 14 August 2008

Obama’s still-unnamed veep will also speak Wednesday.

Tick, tock, tick, tock. . . . Can we get on with the blended-product text-messaging launch, please?

BTW – Did y’all catch this Christian Science Monitor story today?
Cyberspace: new frontier in conflicts

As Georgian troops retreated to defend their capital from Russian attack, the websites of their government, also under fire, retreated to Google.

In an Internet first, Georgia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs reopened its site on Google’s free Blogger network and gave reporters a Gmail address to reach the National Security Council.

32. Intermittent Bystander - 14 August 2008

CSM on Georgia resorting to Blogger in mod, I think.

Related item from AP:Pentagon puts hold on USAF cyber effort

33. marisacat - 14 August 2008

Sorry IB, out of Moderation!

BTW, I read that Ob Camp released the info on Warner as Keynote via email to the VA supporters list.

Somehow I am underwhelmed by some of this.

34. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

3 – oh, how I hate that. I grew up in the midwest, lived in the Rocky Mountain region and New England, and I saw more acts of basic human kindness and decency in my first WEEK in NYC than I had seen in my entire life up until that point.

Fucking sick of people who think NYC cop shows are documentaries.

35. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

Obama’s still-unnamed veep will also speak Wednesday.

So, if Biden, Bayh and Richardson already have speaking spots, that would seem to take them out of the running.

BTW, that pic up top of the VA contingent made me throw up in my mouth a little.

36. marisacat - 14 August 2008

well unless B or B is revealed to be the Veepessa choice, that leaves Kaine (which was always going to be a tad difficult, but Ob seems to really really like him), or someone who has not risen to chit chat.

If he picks Kaine, I can see McC really r amp up the untested untried line.

Good luck to someone.

37. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

I’m probably wrong, but given the sudden happy talk w/ the Clintons, I see a Clintonite, w/ Military ties.

So maybe Wesley Clark. Or maybe Senator Reid.

Jus’ sayin’.

38. marisacat - 14 August 2008

Gah.. just saw film of the S Ossetian “militia”. They looked TOUGH. And a clip of the commander of the Russian land forces saying “If the Americans can take Baghdad, we can take Tbilisi”.

Not much more to add to that.

39. marisacat - 14 August 2008


I could see either. Reid they’d have to work to sell the name nationally, Clark would be a known.

LOL Hey go for it.

40. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

From Andrew Bacevich at Tom’s Dispatch (he’s going to be on Moyer’s tomorrow):

Is Perpetual War Our Future?

To appreciate the full extent of the military crisis into which the United States has been plunged requires understanding what the Iraq War and, to a lesser extent, the Afghan War have to teach. These two conflicts, along with the attacks of September 11, 2001, will form the centerpiece of George W. Bush’s legacy. Their lessons ought to constitute the basis of a new, more realistic military policy.

In some respects, the effort to divine those lessons is well under way, spurred by critics of President Bush’s policies on the left and the right as well as by reform-minded members of the officer corps. Broadly speaking, this effort has thus far yielded three distinct conclusions. Whether taken singly or together, they invert the post-Cold War military illusions that provided the foundation for the president’s Global War on Terror. In exchange for these received illusions, they propound new ones, which are equally misguided. Thus far, that is, the lessons drawn from America’s post-9/11 military experience are the wrong ones.

41. marisacat - 14 August 2008

Meet the Press: Govs. Bobby Jindal, Tim Kaine

Face the Nation: Gov. Tim Pawlenty, Sen. Evan Bayh

Fox News Sunday: Former Gov. Tom Ridge, White House Press Secretary Dana Perino

Late Edition: Gov. Bill Richardson, Sen. Richard Lugar

42. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

39 – not that I think it’s good, but since I fucking hate the donks, I want them to go full Republican and take off the bs “progressive” mask, since that’s what they’re doing anyway. Be honest about it.

Something about the clip of the S. Ossetians reminded me of the Chechens, frankly, only they’re on the Russians’ side.

43. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

Bacevich’s conclusion:

War’s essential nature is fixed, permanent, intractable, and irrepressible. War’s constant companions are uncertainty and risk. “War is the realm of chance,” wrote the military theorist Carl von Clausewitz nearly two centuries ago. “No other human activity gives it greater scope: no other has such incessant and varied dealings with this intruder…” — a judgment that the invention of the computer, the Internet, and precision-guided munitions has done nothing to overturn.

So the first lesson to be taken away from the Bush administration’s two military adventures is simply this: War remains today what it has always been — elusive, untamed, costly, difficult to control, fraught with surprise, and sure to give rise to unexpected consequences. Only the truly demented will imagine otherwise.

The second lesson of Iraq and Afghanistan derives from the first. As has been the case throughout history, the utility of armed force remains finite. Even in the information age, to the extent that force “works,” it does so with respect to a limited range of contingencies.

Although die-hard supporters of the Global War on Terror will insist otherwise, events in Iraq and Afghanistan have demonstrated definitively that further reliance on coercive methods will not enable the United States to achieve its objectives. Whether the actual aim is to democratize the Islamic world or subdue it, the military “option” is not the answer.

The Bush Doctrine itself provides the basis for a third lesson. For centuries, the Western moral tradition has categorically rejected the concept of preventive war. The events of 9/11 convinced some that this tradition no longer applied: old constraints had to give way. Yet our actual experience with preventive war suggests that, even setting moral considerations aside, to launch a war today to eliminate a danger that might pose a threat at some future date is just plain stupid. It doesn’t work.

History has repeatedly demonstrated the irrationality of preventive war. If the world needed a further demonstration, President Bush provided it. Iraq shows us why the Bush Doctrine was a bad idea in the first place and why its abrogation has become essential. For principled guidance in determining when the use of force is appropriate, the country should conform to the Just War tradition — not only because that tradition is consistent with our professed moral values, but also because its provisions provide an eminently useful guide for sound statecraft.

Finally, there is a fourth lesson, relating to the formulation of strategy. The results of U.S. policy in Iraq and Afghanistan suggest that in the upper echelons of the government and among the senior ranks of the officer corps, this has become a lost art.

Since the end of the Cold War, the tendency among civilians — with President Bush a prime example — has been to confuse strategy with ideology. The president’s freedom agenda, which supposedly provided a blueprint for how to prosecute the Global War on Terror, expressed grandiose aspirations without serious effort to assess the means required to achieve them. Meanwhile, ever since the Vietnam War ended, the tendency among military officers has been to confuse strategy with operations.

Here we come face-to-face with the essential dilemma with which the United States has unsuccessfully wrestled since the Soviets deprived us of a stabilizing adversary. The political elite that ought to bear the chief responsibility for crafting grand strategy instead nurses fantasies of either achieving permanent global hegemony or remaking the world in America’s image. Meanwhile, the military elite that could puncture those fantasies and help restore a modicum of realism to U.S. policy fixates on campaigns and battles, with generalship largely a business of organizing and coordinating matériel.

The four lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan boil down to this: Events have exposed as illusory American pretensions to having mastered war. Even today, war is hardly more subject to human control than the tides or the weather. Simply trying harder — investing ever larger sums in even more advanced technology, devising novel techniques, or even improving the quality of American generalship — will not enable the United States to evade that reality.

44. marisacat - 14 August 2008


I think I am going to live long enoough to see Bacevich turn anti war. He clearly has years to go. But then we have years and years of wars to teach him.

I’d be taking it VERY personally if a fucking war took my only child and NO POLITICIAN who showed up for the memorial service, of either party, could meet my eyes.

Which he reported in an opinion piece.

45. marisacat - 14 August 2008

The four lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan boil down to this: Events have exposed as illusory American pretensions to having mastered war.

well, there is the truth.

46. marisacat - 14 August 2008


ugh the clip of the militia made me slightly frantic. And they clearly are conducting a “clear the land” plan. Sweeping thru villages, looting and burning.

Not that that makes them special or unique. We do night sweeps and bomb from the air.

47. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

46 – They’re doing what they think they have to do to give themselves some space and some payback. That, and some loot. This is why loons like Saakashvili and Bush are so dangerous: they blithly “let loose the dogs of war” and don’t understand how out-of-control it quickly becomes.

Bacevich seems to be following the same arc Hedges did, only more slowly b/c he was a soldier himself. I think there are some people who put on the uniform b/c they genuinely believe it to be a noble choice. In a sane world, I suppose it could be, I don’t know. One of the interesting things about the post-war samurai films that came out of Japan was their exploration of this process, where warriors face that they weren’t treated with respect or nobility, no matter what their own motivations were. “The 47 Ronin”, “Seven Samurai”, “Samurai Rebellion” … all explore the way that “good” soldiers are used, and how they come to realize that. In the US, I guess “The Wild Bunch” and “Deer Hunter” are similar examinations of the same problem, but it hasn’t sunk in here yet (look how forgotten Smedley Butler is, or the Bonus Army). Maybe it takes the incineration of a couple of cities.

48. marisacat - 14 August 2008

A couple of years ago by accident, thru a columnist in the San Diego paper, I read of a speech that Galloway gave at a university down there… I forget which one. He clearly was close to becoming anti war. He spoke against war and for education, one of the places that when people embrace anti war, they start to really look at.

Never found the speech, but I did find some blog comments by people who had attended the speech.

Bacevich seems to be edging that way…

Well defense of ”the homeland”, your own littoral, that is about it. All of the rest of this is latter day Roman armies. And America persists in thinking we have the right to openly discuss who can have sovereignty and who cannot. So Russian of us.

49. marisacat - 14 August 2008


By Galloway I mean the long time war reporter and author, til he retired, thnk he was with McClatchy/Knight Ridder…

50. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

In the Japanese movies I mentioned they shrink it down even more than defense of homeland. Defense of family. Hell, the “Wild Bunch” defines family as one’s comrades … I know it’s dangerous to put too much on art of any sort, but I really think that is how societies work out these problems.

We try hard not to, and to make it just “entertainment”.

51. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

Galloway has written some great stuff over the last couple of years.

52. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008
53. NYCO - 14 August 2008

On a brighter note… for all the fears about pollution in Beijing, it looks like an absolutely beautiful, blue-sky day there today. At least, wherever they are holding the archery men’s final.

54. wu ming - 14 August 2008

one of the influences on the developmengt of that postwar japanese film themes is the fact that a lot of those guys – kurosawa foremost among them – were propaganda filmmakers during the decades-long (on the asian side) pacific war. working out their own guilt and culpability in the aftermath of a catastrophic, something sorely needed damn near everywhere, but always welcome when it appears.

one of the reasons why we initially had a militia-based military in this country was because of the recognition by many of the founders that war that is not directly connected to defending one’s own community is a wretched cancer that leads directly to tyrranny. that and a nation that was as distrustful of its own government troops as any outsider, as a result of the wars against their british countrymen.

of course, as the history of the caucuses shows, war defending one’s own home can be blood-chillingly brutal and tyrranical as well, but the monsters it gives birth to are a fair amount smaller.

55. CSTAR - 14 August 2008

Madman, thanks for the Bacevich link. In fact I appreciate all your links.

This is also an important conclusion Bacevich drwas:

America doesn’t need a bigger army. It needs a smaller — that is, more modest — foreign policy, one that assigns soldiers missions that are consistent with their capabilities. Modesty implies giving up on the illusions of grandeur to which the end of the Cold War and then 9/11 gave rise. It also means reining in the imperial presidents who expect the army to make good on those illusions. When it comes to supporting the troops, here lies the essence of a citizen’s obligation.

I think there is something which Bacevich missed hitting head on, although he seems to be skirting around the edges of this idea, with his comments on the effect on foreign policy of an all-volunteer army. As Bacevich notes
War’s constant companions are uncertainty and risk. Yet why is it that so few politicians seem willing to avoid this risk and in fact eager to embrace it?

This suggests that there is “moral hazard” (an incentive to risky behavior created by artificially shielding exposure to risk – a term invented to apply only to the behavior of the poor) in the relation between domestic politics and foreign policy. For those in a political position to agitate for a beligerant foreign policy, war is relatively painless. It’s other people’s children that die, it’s other peoples assets that get devalued, it’s other people’s economic sacrifice. And in fact, there is a reinforcing cycle of advocacy for ever higher levels of aggression, part of the morally hazardous political system.

This is not new: war as a distraction from domestic political troubles is as old as war itself. What does seem more alaming to me now, is that all mechanisms of correction seem to have disappeared and both parties are active participants in the hazardous cycle of warmongering.

56. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

Very good point, wu … thanks for that. I forgot the culpability of the filmmakers.

Perhaps Samurai Rebellion is such a wonderful explication of the problem b/c it’s director, Masaki Kobayashi, was a devoted pacifist who refused to fight in WW2. I am moved by that film every time I see it.

57. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

55 – I’m glad you like the links. I think your comment is on to something:

This suggests that there is “moral hazard” (an incentive to risky behavior created by artificially shielding exposure to risk – a term invented to apply only to the behavior of the poor) in the relation between domestic politics and foreign policy.

I think that is very to the point, the problem that we’re dealing with, the reason why it is always so easy to drive Americans to war (going back to the Confederates excitation of poor whites).

58. wu ming - 14 August 2008

i think it will take a catastrophic loss on our own soil to grasp that point. not a couple city blocks damaged, but a war brought home to the american people.

i do not look forward to such a thing, but i really don’t see how we will ever come to grips with this vicious cycle until it bites us back hard, where it hurts most.

59. wu ming - 14 August 2008

in that sense, we are very much like the japanese in the 30s and 40s. all the wars are “over there,” and the experience of being in a battleground isn’t even really concievable to most people. what freed those filmmakers to make that art was the collapse of their world. not just regret for evil done, but a crushing, personal defeat.

60. Madman in the Marketplace - 14 August 2008

58 & 59 – I think you’re right. I used to think that rational argument would win out, prevent disaster. I’m sadly willing to admit that I was wrong.

61. CSTAR - 14 August 2008

BTW above in 55 I meant to say
few politicians seem unwilling to avoid this risk

Spanish speakers of english are always confused by too many negatives.

62. diane - 15 August 2008

Oh jeez, have been visiting down the Anthrax worm hole, and just thought I’d take a quick break and share an
apparently new hairdoo I came upon in my descent

Empty all contents from mouth first.

63. marisacat - 15 August 2008

nu thred…………..


……………. 8) ……………….

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