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red white and blue — and white 23 August 2008

Posted by marisacat in 2008 Election, DC Politics, Democrats, Inconvenient Voice of the Voter, U.S. Senate.
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From Biden’s eulogy for Strom Thurmond:

[W]hen I first arrived in the Senate, in 1972, I met with John Stennis, another old Southern senator, who became my friend. We sat at the other end of this gigantic, grand mahogany table he used as his desk that had been the desk of Richard Russell’s. It was a table upon which the Southern Manifesto was signed, I am told. The year was 1972.

Senator Stennis patted the leather chair next to him when I walked in to pay my respects as a new young senator, which was the order of the day. And he said, Sit down, sit down, sit down here, son. And those who serve with him know he always talked like this.

And he looked at me and he said, Son, what made you run for the Senate? And like a darn fool I told him the exact truth before I could of it, I said, Civil rights, sir. And as soon as I did I could feel the beads of perspiration pop out of my head and get that funny feeling. And he looked at me and said, Good, good, good. And that was the end of the conversation. (LAUGHTER)

Well, 18 years later, after us having shared a hospital suite for three months at Walter Reed and after him having tried to help me in another pursuit I had, we’d become friends.

I saw him sitting behind that same table 18 years later, only this time in a wheelchair. His leg had been amputated because of cancer. And I was going to look at offices, because in my seniority his office was available as he was leaving.

I went in and sat down and he looked at me as if it were yesterday and he said, Sit down, Joe, sit down, and tapped that chair. And he said something that startled me. He said, Remember the first time you came to see me, Joe? And I shook my head, I didn’t remember. And he leaned forward and he recited the story.

I said to him, I was a pretty smart young fellow, wasn’t I, Mr. Chairman? He said, Joe, I wanted to tell you something then that I’m going to tell you now. You are going to take my office, aren’t you? And I said, Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.

And he ran his hand back and forth across that mahogany table in a loving way, and he said, You see this table, Joe? This is the God’s truth. He said, You see this table?

And I said, Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. He said, This table was the flagship of the Confederacy from 1954 to 1968. He said, We sat here, most of us from the Deep South, the old Confederacy, and we planned the demise of the civil rights movement.

Then he looked at me and said, And now it’s time, it’s time that this table go from the possession of a man against civil rights to a man who is for civil rights.

And I was stunned. And he said, One more thing, Joe, he said. The civil rights movement did more to free the white man than the black man.

And I looked at him, I didn’t know what he meant, and he said in only John Stennis fashion, he said, It freed my soul, it freed my soul.

Strom Thurmond’s soul is free today. His soul is free. The Bible says, Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow, come now and let us reason together, though your sins may be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.

“… they shall be white as snow…”

My my, look at how easy it all was…with generous old Southern gentlemen like Thurmond and Stennis to feel the movement in their hearts, and dedicated young men like Biden to have always been there for Civil Rights.

Yes, how easy it all was.

I was honored to work with him, privileged to serve with him, and proud to call him my friend.

His long life may well have been a gift of his beloved God, but the powerful and lasting impact he had on his beloved South Carolina and on his nation is Strom’s legacy, his gift to all of us. And he will be missed.

The British essayist William Hazlett once wrote, quote: “Death conceals everything but truth, and strips a man of everything but genius and virtue.”

It’s a sort of natural canonization.

The truth and genius and virtue of Strom Thurmond is what I choose and we all choose to remember today. To Nancy, to Strom, to Julie, and to Paul, to all his friends, the people of South Carolina who knew him so well and love him so much, America mourns with you. I mourn with you. For I knew Strom well. I felt his warmth as you did. I saw his strength as you did. I was the beneficiary of his virtues, as you were. And I’ll miss him as you will, as we all will.

He lived a long and good life. And I know that today a benevolent God has lifted his arms to Strom. I just don’t know what Strom is saying to that benevolent God, because you know he’s saying something.

So I say, Farewell, Mr. Chairman. We stand in adjournment until we meet again.

Not a dry eye by the funeral bier, I would guess…………

Not to worry! Joey B was there for Jesse as well:

Last month, Biden was one of just a handful of prominent Democrats at Helms’ funeral in Raleigh

Just because I need a laugh:

[T]hen Biden reached a crescendo of his effort to link McCain closely to the unpopular Bush.

“You can’t change America when you know your first four years as president will look exactly like the last eight years of George Bush’s presidency.”

This time, however, the crowd broke into the familiar Obama rally chant, “yes we can, yes we can, yes we can.”

Does that mean they think that Obama can change America by looking like the last eight years? Or that they think McCain can? Or does it mean they weren’t really listening any more to what Biden was saying?

They weren’t listening…

I also laughed earlier when Kathryn Jean Lopez posted to The Corner that she has no trouble finding the gates for her connections to Denver: follow the Obama Wear… 8)

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mlk from china

Ed Jackson Jr., executive architect for the Martin Luther King Jr. National Memorial, appearing before the U.S. Commission of Fine Arts Thursday, stands in front of projected images as he points out the subtle changes on the 28-foot sculpture of Dr. King that will be the focal point of the memorial. [Rick McKay/Cox Newspapers]

Off and on when I would think of it, I have been following the rather tawdry trajectory of the Martin Luther King memorial statue for the planned Civil Rights memorial on the Mall in Washington.

At the hearing, Jackson told the commission that Lei had been selected as the sculptor almost by happenstance. A group had gone to China in search of light brown granite for the memorial and visited the artist’s studio, where they were “rendered speechless” by his model for the King statue, Jackson said.

“His interpretation spoke to us,” he said.

Jackson showed photos of renderings byother artists, but he said Lei’s was the one that captivated the foundation and members of the King family.

After the hearing, foundation president Johnson gleefully announced “We’re moving forward,” He brushed off the recent controversy over the statue as “part of the process” for national memorials.

The “stone of hope” containing the statue is to be hand carved out of 39 blocks of granite and will be partly made in China and then brought to the United States, where Lei will oversee the work of American artists.

Johnson said most of the memorial’s structure, including a wall and walkways, will be constructed from American granite, to be purchased with oversight by Angela Fortson, an African-American granite broker based in Stone Mountain.

The memorial is planned for a site next to the Tidal Basin, across from the Jefferson Memorial.

Do you think, for one from our pantheon of New World saints, we could have found an American sculptor, of any color or race, and GODDAMMIT, some native granite from the South for his memorial?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is from the end of the last thread, and fits here…

Intermittent Bystander

81 – I’m betting the lack of enthusiasm is more about recent Hill(ary) history. After all the poo flung at HRC (the first viable – as in, primary-winning – female candidate, whatever else her campaign signified), each turd (ok, the majority of turds) carefully labeled and targeted for her AUMF vote, her Washington Insiderism, her Big Biz Connections, her I/P Position, her Intolerably Aged Boomerism, or (a boyblogger favorite, everybody gasp on cue) her Insidious Racist Gaffes, along comes Washington White Guy Joe, of the Clean and Articulate Beltway Shit-Eating Grin.

There are bound to be women (especially working women) out there saying, WTF? So much for all those fatal flaws! So much for all those high-falutin’ objections! What’s Joe got that Hill don’t? Unh hunh.

FWIW, two of my family members were very fuzzy on Biden’s particulars, including his participation in Judiciary confirmations. One remembered he was present during Watergate. (The other was fairly pleased by the pick in hopes it would shut down the GOP’s not ready for prime-time angle of attack.)

This looks interesting – interview transcripts from Biden, Hill, and Harvard law professor Charles Ogletree on the (1991) Thomas proceedings: Revisiting the Thomas-Hill Hearings.

Blackhippychick remembers the hearings, too. And she’s ticked about O’s brother George, whose plight made it from Italian Vogue to CNN in the last day or two.

*** close of comment ***

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Ooops!  Here is another from Intermittent Bystander from the last thread (and I replied to it below, comment # 1)

Intermittent Bystande

Clearly many of the commenters at blackhippychick’s post do remember Biden from Thomas/Hill, and found her blog while Googling for echoes in the Memory Hole.

And here’s The Caucus (NYT blog), from today: Biden and Anita Hill, Revisited (Kate Phillips).

For women of a certain age, perhaps, the memories are still vivid, and Senator Biden’s pivotal guidance and leadership on the Judiciary Committee remain a matter of controversy. The advent of the Internet and YouTube preserve and resurrect that era. Perhaps because of Mr. Biden’s failed presidential bid earlier in the cycle, there are several takes of his questioning of Mr. Thomas posted on YouTube. It’s a very interesting spot in time, captured on video. Several takes are now uploaded: One | Two | Three | Four.

“He was basically playing judge,” Susan Deller Ross, a Georgetown University law professor and expert in workplace sex discrimination said of Mr. Biden, adding “the other side was playing advocate” for Mr. Thomas. “I’m sure you remember nobody played advocate for her. I don’t think he did well and he bears responsibility for Mr. Thomas being on the court.”

Ms. Ross, who was one of the lawyers assisting Ms. Hill, asserts that Mr. Biden treated Mr. Thomas too even-handedly because of the racially charged nature of the hearings. (Remember Justice Thomas’ charge that he had been subjected to a “high-tech lynching.”) Ms. Ross said that Mr. Biden “was accused of being labeled racist, so the Republicans were blackmailing him and he pushed the levers to make the case look like there wasn’t a case when there was.”

From not permitting other witnesses like Angela Wright to testify who would have been favorable to Ms. Hill, to not permitting affidavits from an expert on whether a pattern of behavior needed to be established to prove sexual harassment, Ms. Ross concluded: “He did everything to make it be good for Thomas and to slant it against her.” (Mr. Biden and his staff at times indicated that Ms. Wright and others weren’t willing to testify, but the record and books written since appear contradictory, as these women were held waiting in the wings for days.)

Echo echo echo.

In the last few days, as we tried to reach out to people involved in the Thomas hearings, we kept hearing the same thing. Mr. Biden’s role in the Anita Hill-Clarence Thomas saga was so long ago as to not be relevant. It was a long time ago.

Funny how that phrase, though, “get over it” keeps coming back. It’s the one Mr. Obama used in a meeting with supporters of Senator Clinton about how women, once they really learned what Senator John McCain represented on their issues, would “get over it.”

Last year, when Mr. Thomas published his memoir, Anita Hill wrote an Op-Ed in The Times, basically saying well, she wasn’t over it. And in another interview this year, now on YouTube, she talks about the role of gender and politics in the 2008 cycle, although she never mentions Mr. Biden or her own role.

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Comments»

1. marisacat - 23 August 2008

Biden was end runned by a senior staffer for ugh forget whether it was Strom or Helms on the Judiciary…think Strom. Anyway from reading Mayer and others, and the way Wright was denied in her attempts to help, she and her atty remained available and were never called, Biden basically did a job for the Old South, as they pushed their chosen one, Clarence.

And Danforth (that sanctimonious shit) who shepherded CT thru the process, also did an end run on the senate. And over and over I heard R and RW call Thomas “Clarence”, anyone else would have been Judge Thomas.

2. Intermittent Bystander - 23 August 2008

Found the YouTube of (“nonpartisan”) Anita Hill (now at Brandeis) on the 08 presidential race (pre-Biden pick). Here ’tis.

Wonder if she’ll agree to an update now?

3. Intermittent Bystander - 23 August 2008

Anita Hill (on race and gender in 08 prez run, pre-Biden) YouTube went to spam, I think.

(Thanks for the comment propulsions . . . as usual, the elevation gives me feelings of vertigo! But what the hell. . . .)

4. Intermittent Bystander - 23 August 2008

The imported artist and granite are telling. Still can’t cope, except via distant abstraction.

5. Intermittent Bystander - 23 August 2008

Thanks!

(Previous smiley unintended, but this one’s on me!) 😉

Special to ms_x and other summer lifestyle gurus: ponder the following four words: fresh black raspberry mojito.

Ooh la la – délicieux!

Fauxito has got to be tasty too. Lime, mint, black rasp puree, ice. . . .

.

6. liberalcatnip - 23 August 2008

Yet Obama said during last Saturday’s Religious Test Forum that he wouldn’t have voted to nominate Clarence Thomas. Mind you, he added that he just thought Thomas didn’t have enough experience at the time.

7. liberalcatnip - 24 August 2008
8. lurking - 24 August 2008

so you’re all voting for McCain?

9. marisacat - 24 August 2008

lurking, de-lurking, sharonlw — and whatever other sockettes…

that is just so knee jerk of you..but thanks for dropping in…

10. Intermittent Bystander - 24 August 2008

6 – Funny you should mention it.

From the NYT link:

He [Biden] made decisions, they wrote, based on his views of respect for a person’s privacy about what and wouldn’t be let into the hearings – including the pornography rentals and Mr. Thomas’s thin legal record. (At Saddleback, Mr. Obama, a former law professor at the University of Chicago said, “I would not have nominated Clarence Thomas. I don’t think that he was a strong enough jurist or legal thinker at the time for that elevation.”)

(At one point, Senator Biden’s aides and then he told Ms. Abramson and Ms. Mayer that digging in too deep on Mr. Thomas’s intellectual legal prowess would’ve been a problem. One aide said, “it was a racial thing.” Mr. Biden himself said, “There was in fact a concern about whether or not to make the guy look stupid – what would happen if you embarrassed him.”)

11. Intermittent Bystander - 24 August 2008

8 – Non-citizen, myself, so no, I won’t be voting. Nor do I interfere with others’ choices.

Still free to speak my mind, though, right? In the land of liberteeeeee?

12. marisacat - 24 August 2008

“There was in fact a concern about whether or not to make the guy look stupid – what would happen if you embarrassed him.”]

hard to get more racist than that… which of course the right counted on. Running a scam that worked.

13. Intermittent Bystander - 24 August 2008

Yep.

From the Florence Graves link:

BIDEN: “I think that the only reason Clarence Thomas is on the Court is because he is black. I don’t believe he could have won had he been white. And the reason is, I think it was a cynical ploy by President Bush.”

OGLETREE: Biden’s partly right. It was not a cynical ploy by Bush. It was a brilliant ploy by Bush, and I give him credit for it. It was perhaps the single most important decision that George Bush made as president. What he was able to do by nominating Clarence Thomas was to drive a wedge in the civil rights community that separated brother and sister, mother and father in ways that have never happened before.

Because what he said was, `Here is a black man. Now let me see you criticize him. Are you criticizing him because he is black? Are you criticizing him because he is conservative? Are you criticizing him because you don’t think he is competent? Whatever reason you’re criticizing him, it’s no loss for the president, because I will have ample reason to say, `I’ll never nominate (a black) again. I will never put anyone through what he went through.’

So it was a brilliant move on the part of the president. And what he did was show the very soft underbelly in the liberal community that could not tolerate a challenge that really tested the essence of racial politics…

I think that what Bush did was not cynical, but it was from my point of view, and other agree with this, a confirmation that Republicans strongly believe in affirmative action. Justice Thomas was the affirmative action candidate. He was not the best person for the job. He was not the best African American for the job. He was not a brilliant judge…

So I think that the real significance of all this is that the president {Bush I] was able to get what he wanted. He was able to drive a wedge in the civil rights community, and now those, particularly civil rights leaders who were reluctant to oppose Thomas, regret that they didn’t because he’s turned out to be far more conservative than they ever imagined.

14. marisacat - 24 August 2008

To be fair, wihtout knowing the count of days, but I read that McC is choking off his traveling press pack as well… but while i am on it, fuck them all:

Men of the ‘People’

August 23, 2008 6:33 PM

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., hasn’t given a press availability in half a month, since the day before he left for his Hawaiian vacation.

He and his new running mate are currently giving an exclusive post-announcement interview to “People” magazine.

– jpt

15. marisacat - 24 August 2008

Ogletree is wrong, R don’t believe in Affirmative Action – they believe in race based politics when it suits them, and keeping a cadre of conservative people of color, not just black, at their beck and call.

That said, Ogletree’s experienced some brain drain since then. he’s been a big fat irritant in this run. Most recently saying that Obama daughters, despite a wealthy family, should benefit from Affir Action. Because, he said, they would inevitably experience discrimination.

it gets old.

And he is in a dream world. Despite that Affir Action should long ago have become an economic and social strata based government program (or government incentive is better phrasing), Obama will effectively end it.

16. Intermittent Bystander - 24 August 2008

Ogletree is wrong, R don’t believe in Affirmative Action – they believe in race based politics when it suits them

I thought Ogletree was saying just that, more or less sarcasticallly. (What a name, in this context! So hard to decide whether the world is more deeply or trivially ridiculous!}

Unaware of Ogilvy’s pronouncements on the Obama daughters, I’ll have to investigate further tomorrow. Agree that Obama himself would be likely to zotz any programs in favor of preference.

17. Intermittent Bystander - 24 August 2008

Unless, of coursek God were involved.

18. marisacat - 24 August 2008

well regardless of what Obama actually does, Affir Action just ends with his ascencion (sp?). Which I think is part of the plan, imo, the DP wants to be rid of having to do anything for blacks and wants to sharply divest itself of having to do anything for even vaguely anti war.

Not that it matters anymore. One reason it should have gone to straight socio economic was the endless blowback about Affir Action.

Anyway, the demographics of the country are rapidly changing. Black population numbers remain static, for decades now… other numbers are rising… Black leadership that did not move beyond government programs (and they themselves being on the receiving end of the feeding trough to keep them in line) are stuck.

I caught the tag end of a 20/20 (which I normally don’t watch) about the struggle in inner city programs for pregnant teens (mostly of color), with shrinkage of government programs (a place they are really needed) and the absence of private help. A call for help with maternity clothing garnered a single donation. They struggle to have enough pampers to hand out.

And let’s not ignore shrinking availability of abortion (the numbers go down as it is less and less available) as well as subsidised birth control and sex ed. Not a pretty picture

But yeah, let’s elect the lollipop king. The oceans will recede and all of that.

19. Intermittent Bystander - 24 August 2008

I’d like to dedicate that typo (of coursek) to DianeL, if that’s ok (sic).

Despite my non-citizen status, I too would prefer the victory of O v. McC. And not just ’cause I concur re the whining.

Let’s do get on with it, whatever it will be. Time and breath’s been a-wasting!

20. marisacat - 24 August 2008

I had been meaning to look up the 20/20 prgram since I landed on the last quarter of it…

usually Vargas is an irritant, but here she was not.

21. marisacat - 24 August 2008

19

ugh I am more and more worried they won’t make it. And wathcing the Dems hide behind Arnold out here, facilitate his re-election and so on, has been more than I can bear.

I want them to have the whole wedding cake, two boys in tuxes on top, luxury catering and Rolls Royce to the honeymoon suite.

22. NYCO - 24 August 2008

Apparently, GOP blogs are now referring to the ticket as “Obama Bin Biden.”

23. NYCee - 24 August 2008

Thanks for the info several threads back re my query on the birth control shafting, Marisa…

I’m trying to squeeze one or two more beach days out of Lady Summer, so gotta get on the move here.

Yeah, it’s Joe, and whaddahyaknow, he’s blue collar thru and thru.

New meme.

Gee, and I thought it was his great expertise on foreign policy (Gimme a vacation! A break is not enough on that one…) Funny, the bio is heavy with Biden’s dad’s tough Irish “get up get up get up” no matter how often youre knocked down, his riches to rags story, and how he soldiered thru the tough times, imparting oodles of wisdom and grace to his son. Guess bankruptcy was for wimps. Or maybe just not for senators who hail from bank soaked states … like Delaware.

So Joe goes on the stump and pounds his fist in advocacy for the hurtin’ working men and women. Wonder how he will square the vote to cut off bankruptcy relief, especially in what he notes are such dire times for his constituency, when it is needed more than ever. No one mentions it, this shameful vote – him (and Carper D-DE), no no no!!! to just about every ameliorating amendment, as well. Well, I guess he can always ‘splain it as something Dad said was for wimps, not the tough sort who get up again and again and again.

Hard knocks delivered by Congressional reps who say they need your votes to save you from hard knocks…

Aw, just gimme a big white smile and it’ll be all right!

24. NYCee - 24 August 2008

Intermittent By…

It is rich, what you noted. The alleged CHANGE is a MUST! (from old guard Hillary) selling point early on, in BO campaign, and then … Biden!

Gimme a… vacation!

Well, off to scrounge up some towels and sunblock.

Later.

25. marisacat - 24 August 2008

Obama bin Biden. ugh…

But I jsut heard an ad the R have up (KGO ran the audio as part of their news break, not as an ad) with tape of Biden saying (I ididnot catch the date of the quote) that he’d

be happy to run WITH or AGAINST McCain, hat the country would be better off.

I did see some allusion to Eagleton yesterday… which I have never forgotten. It was a jolt a fw months ago when Novak said Eagleton ws his source, before he was selected for VP, of the earlier version of god guns and gays… that McGovern was the candidate of abortion acid and amnesty.

Scrw them all.

26. ms_xeno - 24 August 2008

#8: Awwww… Somebody give lurkeyturkey a sugar tit while I give the unabridged version.

Here we go again with the electoral version of Vietnam Syndrome.

Bawwww !!! We are losing because you evil TRAITORS DON’T BELIEVE HARD ENOUGH !!

Wahhhhh !!! Our leaders suck face with the Right Wing every ten minutes !! The Great Orange Creamsicle of Pwog Blogsites is chock-a-block with self-confessed conservative “former” Republicans !! Our leaders maintain a closed shop and stomp on Leftward stragglers every two minutes !! We ourselves dis the Left because it’s short and funny-looking and smells ! See ? We are team players ![foot stomp] We are !!!

And yet, once again our anointed Plaster Saint and his kapok-stuffed running mate are going to blow it. Once again their very own colleagues are going to waltz away with victory– with the able assistance of Plaster Saint and Veep Kapok across the aisle, a corporate-owned media to which both teams happily sold the keys to (though it was not theirs to sell), and a fucked-up voting system bejeweled with fucked-up machinery owned by private interests !!

But none of that matters !![gnash teeth]IT’S STILL ALL YOUR FAULT, YOU CRANKS !! YOU HIPPIES !! YOU FUCKING UNGRATEFUL TRAITORS !! You betrayed us !! You fled the plantation after we bought and paid for your asses !! Your very skepticism and concern is a VOTE FOR MCCAIN !! It’s not faiiiir !! Sure we stink on ice but we could have won !! If not for you and your TRAITOROUS EVIL !!!

We could have won if you’d only believed !! It’s all your fault !! Guilt is a bitch, isn’t it ? You’re responsible for everything bad and evil because you couldn’t shuffle and grin through yet one more round of having your pockets picked and your intelligence insulted ! Daily !! ALL YOUR FAULT !!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!

27. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008

8 – RFLMO

you’re kidding, right?

28. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008

12 – variation on the scam run by the donks, now.

29. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008

the DP wants to be rid of having to do anything for blacks and wants to sharply divest itself of having to do anything for even vaguely anti war.

Which is why I find the hip hop component in the Green party a slight ray of hope. they’re talking about all of the issues that the donks are throwing overboard. If they could build that party so it won some local elections and got over 5% nationally they could seriously fuck w/ the donks chances and force them to move left.

30. liberalcatnip - 24 August 2008

I was watching the end of the Olympic marathon run last nite and thinking, “What does this have to do with Joe Biden?”

31. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008
32. wilfred - 24 August 2008

Love the photo Marisa. All I could think of was:

Eb-O-Knee and I-Vor-EEE.
Live Together in perfect Har-Mo-Knee 🙂

LOL, speaking of that did anyone see the NY Times story on McCain and Cyndeeeeee yesterday? They talked about who her daddy left the beer distributorship to and each of Cyndeeeeee and John’s kids got a slice of it but the adopted black child got a lesser share. What a hoot these folks are, guess he didn’t want to give her a full share in case she was returned to sender?

33. ms_xeno - 24 August 2008

Madman:

…they’re talking about all of the issues that the donks are throwing overboard.

And 9 out of 10 big-time bloggers still won’t touch ’em with a ten-foot pole– Except as an excuse for all the long-since-born-again Nader voters (so called*) to come out and publicly sweat in their moldy hair shirts some more. It’s a TWO-PARTY SYSTEM !![whine]You have to change it first and no I’m not responsible for the unavoidable fact that my own fucking party and I are instrumental in chloroforming change at every turn !![whine]Bad things happened and it’s all because of Nader !!

So sick of these whiners and their bullshit. Particularly their infantile obsession with Nader, as if he were the be-all and end-all of possibility for change;As if he were going to live eternally as the get-out-of-jail-free card for Democrats too gutless to do anything but play these endless, fatuous games of “show me.” I also doubt that the majority of them really did vote Nader in the first place. I see so many of these born-againers every time the subject of outsider parties comes up that I’m firmly convinced that Nader would have slam-dunked that crucial 5% of the vote in 2000– if all the born-againers were really telling the truth about who they voted for.

34. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008

Criminals dumping weak US dollar for euro

OTTAWA (AFP) – The weakened US dollar has fallen out of favor with organized crime groups to pay for drug shipments or to settle scores, a Canadian government report said Friday.

And if the greenback continues its slide in 2008, as expected, more and more criminals are likely to exchange euros for illicit goods, said Criminal Intelligence Service Canada in its annual report.

35. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008
36. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008

Cue the Curtain: In-Store CD Sales Nearing an End

They’re not alone, either. Reports indicate 2008 will see a huge drop in in-store CD availability across the board, with cuts as high as 40 percent in retailers ranging from Best Buy to Circuit City by the year’s end. And we’ve all seen how few of the standalone music stores are left. Like it or not, the physical manifestation of music is rapidly becoming an endangered species.

So where do we point our accusatory finger? Who’s the demon causing our old friend to breathe his dying breath? Well, Napster’s the obvious candidate. But calm down, Lars…if the once-free music service hasn’t come along at the turn of the century, something else would have done it. If anyone’s to take the fall for physical music’s fall, it has to be technology in general.

It’s pretty simple, really: The demands have changed, and the industry is just now starting to catch up. I see it as a generational shift. A new batch of kids — i.e. today’s teenagers — grew up with music always available with the press of a button. They never knew the joy of heading to the CD store the day their favorite band’s album was set to come out, then heading back home with that cellophane-encased treasure in their hands. To them, music is a concept, not a tangible object. It’s a disposable file, not an invaluable possession. The mindset has undergone a massive transformation, and the stores are seeing the result.

Them, of course, is the general mass. I know there are a vocal minority of young folks who treasure the physical manifestation, and a few of us old folks who still go out and try to buy new stuff (not just TimeLife regurgitations of songs we remember). Sadly, not enuff to feed the bottom line.

37. aemd - 24 August 2008

# 8, I’m not voting for McCain. I’m not voting for Joebama (not as fun as Obamakaine but, chuckle, pretty damn good) either.

Neither wants my vote. From their panderin’ taxpayer money backed promises, they want the votes of the Wall Street gamblers, the evangelical grifters, the arms dealers, AIPAC, Big Big Busyne$$, the neocon lites, the he-man homo/women/other haters and all the usual dead weight lookin’ for an easy, powerful, high payin’ job (Cha-Ching) in the new king’s realm.

The rejection is (sob) tough but I’ll GET OVER IT. Lots of interesting choices to be made at the local level. I better get crackin’, November will be here before ya know it and I don’t want to just give my vote away. 😎

38. lucid - 24 August 2008

And if the greenback continues its slide in 2008, as expected, more and more criminals are likely to exchange euros for illicit goods, said Criminal Intelligence Service Canada in its annual report.

I wonder how that might effect the money laundering that has propped up the market for decades.

39. marisacat - 24 August 2008

Madman # 36 out of moderation… sorry for the delay!

****

But none of that matters !![gnash teeth]IT’S STILL ALL YOUR FAULT, YOU CRANKS !! YOU HIPPIES !! YOU FUCKING UNGRATEFUL TRAITORS !! You betrayed us !! You fled the plantation after we bought and paid for your asses !! Your very skepticism and concern is a VOTE FOR MCCAIN !! It’s not faiiiir !! Sure we stink on ice but we could have won !! If not for you and your TRAITOROUS EVIL !!!

Yup…

40. marisacat - 24 August 2008

32

I missed the article but what should have happened (and maybe did, I don’t know) is that the others make up Bridgett’s share so she is an equal inheritor.

41. marisacat - 24 August 2008

LOL They should have just held it in NO, already kited out with massive federal intervention:

The DNC host city is now outfitted with helicopters, commandos, anti-riot equipment and make-shift protester jails.

So relieved that San Francisco’s “values” are so toxic that neither party would ever touch us for a major hoopla.

42. JJB - 24 August 2008

Imagine a mythical creature, somewhat like the centaur, a jellyfish with a horse’s posterior, except that what is the posterior in the horse is this creature’s face (yes, it has the normal tail, and the tail moves when it talks, so you can just imagine what the manner of speech is).

That creature is Joe Biden.

I remember the first time I saw him, on television. It was during his first term in Congress, shortly after Ford had pardoned Nixon, and he was going out of his way to get some important face time. That dung eating grin was identical to the one he flashes now though the face and hairline were much younger, and the look in his eyes suggested someone who was blabbing the kind of things Senators think to themselves and occasionally whisper to a few trusted colleagues, but never share with the public, and while I have no memory of what he said, I remember the sickly grin with which he said it, and the way that the reporters you could see madly scrambling behind him (camera technology was not what it is today and back then you couldn’t get the kind of tight focus shot that eliminates whatever is going in the background), their gleeful faces showing they were sure some lightweight with no seniority was about to slice off his head with own tongue. I remember thinking “Joe Biden, Democrat of Delaware, probably doomed to one term due to his own idiocy.” Little did I dream that I would one day live in the wretched excuse for a state he represented, and have occasion to wince over this idiotic statements on an almost daily basis. The state’s other Congresscritters (Senator Bill Roth and House Rep Mike Castle) were so much quieter, and actually got more accomplished (not coincidentally).

Which for no reason reminds me, Delaware politicians who get to go to DC (and it’s their notion of heaven) are supposed to make a big deal about how they don’t really live there, and take Amtrak there Monday mornings and come back to the beloved Dupont plantation on Friday afternoons. After 6 years in Delaware, my wife and I decided to move to the DC area (long story mostly having to do with the wretchedness of Delaware’s public schools and the fact that we had a 4 year old son). So I got to spend a lot of time running down to DC for job interviews, and saw both Roth and Castle on several Friday evenings, but never Biden. Nor did I ever encounter him on the streets of Wilmington, where I frequently saw Roth, usually after his no doubt liquid lunch at the Rodney Square Club (he liked to meet people’s glance and smile and wave at them which I’ll admit I found endearing though not enough to vote for him). One time, after 3 DC job interviews in one Friday (talk about hell on earth), I got on an Amtrak train after finding nothing in the Union Station food court appealing enough to eat except a soft ice cream sundae. I was feeling a bit out of it during the last interview, but had but this down to exhaustion. Shortly before the train got to Baltimore/Washington International Airport I realized “my god, I’ve got a stomach virus and I just ate one of the worst things imaginable for that malady” and made numerous trips to the train toilet compartment to toss my not exactly cookies. On one occasion I saw a familiar face and said to myself “that’s Senator Roth.” On another, I saw yet one more FF and said “that’s Congresscritter Castle, he and Roth are both on the same train, sitting about 15 feet away from each other, but they aren’t speaking.” When the train finally pulled into Wilmington, I dragged my seriously dehydrated and sick body to the door (it was wintertime, very cold, just to milk the sympathy factor to the utmost), and found myself standing right next to both of them, who were also standing right next to each other. They didn’t speak, they didn’t even look at each other, or acknowledge each other’s presence. Of course, a year earlier, Roth, who was no longer able to express himself coherently or recognize people he’d known intimately for 3 decades or more, had decided to run for another Senate term, thereby denying easy election to the upper chamber to Castle. Roth’s wife was a federal judge who loved the DC social whirl. So did Castle and his wife (rumored to be a beard), and they were both very anxious to experience it at the Senatorial level. Instead, Roth got that one last term and lost yet another run for office to Tom Carper, Delaware’s Democratic governor (used to see him in Wilmington frequently too, he spent more time there than Dover the state’s capital), who had been the Congresscritter until he and Castle had agreed to swap offices by running against mutually acceptable dupes when Castle was facing unemployment due to the two-term limit for Delaware governors. Castle is still the state’s lone Congresscritter, though I did notice while driving through Delaware today (long personal story I prefer not to discuss though I like to avoid the Delaware I-95 toolbooth so I take local roads into Maryland and get to see things you don’t see on the Interstate like election posters) that he’s putting up “Vote For Me!” billboards, and in most places they’re right next to ones for his opponent. So his safe seat may end up in the Dem column.

Long story short, I REALLY HATE JOE BIDEN, AND I THINK OBAMA HAS MADE AN EVEN BIGGER MISTAKE THAN GORE MADE WHEN HE PICKED LIEBERMAN.

And for what it’s worth, I have a nephew who goes to the University of Delaware, a rather good state university. I used to enjoy rooting for their football team when I lived there. Go Blue Hens!

43. marisacat - 24 August 2008

so perfect:

a jellyfish with a horse’s posterior

so… what a shock… he does not take the train… LOL

44. JJB - 24 August 2008

Nor, I’m sure, did he return to DE, although he loved to brag about coming back home for the weekend and getting a burger and shake at the Charcoal Pit, an franchise chain a cut above most fast food eateries. Which reminds me that a couple of years ago he was interviewed for some article by (I’m pretty sure) Remnick in The New Yorler about John Kerry’s electoral deficiencies, and Biden (portrayed as a Really Good Buddy of JK’s) nonetheless said things about him that no true friend would say to a reporter about another Senator on the record, and blabbed about how good the shakes were at the CP, which made me wonder just how much the burger joint was paying him for a retainer.

BTW, the burgers and shakes in question are highly overrated, Biden’s opinion to the contrary.

45. marisacat - 24 August 2008

LOL I remember those quotes abut JK. I found it so entertaining. Kerry must be chewing his lips off over this…

What a hoot!

Another jerk ticket flies into a brick wall.

46. ms_xeno - 24 August 2008

I’ll take jerked chicken over a jerk ticket any day.

😀

47. marisacat - 24 August 2008

LOL TPM has the vid of the ad I heard the audo to, where Biden says he’d be ahppy to run with or agaisnt McCain.

AND someone popped me this.. Media Blogs from NRO. Neon manger. What more can one say.

48. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008

“Change,” “Hope” … Why They Must be Talking About Joe Biden!

Another shining moment in Biden’s progress in the current presidential term was his conduct in the hearings on Judge Alito’s nomination to the US Supreme Court. From the opening moments of the Judiciary Committee’s sessions in January, 2006, it became clear that Alito faced no serious opposition. On that first ludicrous morning Senator Pat Leahy sank his head into his hands, shaking it in unbelieving despair as Biden blathered out a self-serving and inane monologue lasting a full twenty minutes before he even asked Alito one question. In his allotted half hour Biden managed to pose only five questions, all of them ineptly phrased. He did pose two questions about Alito’s membership of a racist society at Princeton, but had already undercut them in his monologue by calling Alito “a man of integrity”, not once but twice, and further trivialized the interrogation by reaching under the dais to pull out a Princeton cap and put it on.

In all, Biden rambled for 4,000 words, leaving Alito time only to put together less than 1,000. A Delaware newspaper made deadly fun of him for his awful performance, eliciting the revealing confession from Biden that “I made a mistake. I should have gone straight to my question. I was trying to put him at ease.”

49. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008

Targeting Pelosi (and the War Machine)

Frank: Some may laugh when you say, “celebrate victory”. Do you really think you can beat Nancy Pelosi? Also, do you believe it is more effective to challenge the Democrat’s position outside of the party, instead of inside, like the Progressive Democrats of America (PDA) are trying to do?

Sheehan: Well, I always say that there’s not enough laughter in the world today … but seriously, we have a society where “winning” is the only acceptable outcome of any event: from sports, to American Idol to politics. I believe that every day our campaign office is open and functioning and attracting more volunteers and positive energy is a victory. I go to sleep every night convinced of this fact and wake up every morning ready to get back to the important work of confronting what Nancy Pelosi represents to many people: corporate militarism and a fascist police state.

Besides the daily victories, and the major victory of just getting on the ballot as a non-partisan candidate, I do think that this election is winnable. There is excitement from all over the world, really, for this race. We have a comfortable amount of money right now that we are planning to use to wage a fierce-issues based campaign. I can’t really believe that the people of the 8th District would vote for Pelosi when they find out that she knew about torture and sanctioned the inhumane practice as well as her other failures for the people (but victories for the war machine).

I tried working the whole inside/outside strategy of the PDA, and was, in fact, on its national board until they refused to endorse me in my race against Pelosi. I believe that the only way we are going to save our representative republic and restore some kind of peace and economic equality is to challenge the two party duopoly that only suppresses these attributes.

Typical.

Frank: Why did you decide to target Pelosi out of all the bad Democrats out there?

Sheehan: I decided to target Pelosi because she is the number one Democrat in Congress and she was the number one obstacle to ending the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

My reasoning was and is that if she refused to hold Bush accountable, then someone needed to hold her accountable. I am not the kind of person to wait for someone else to do something that needs to be done. So here I am.

50. baypraire - 24 August 2008

8 said.

so you’re all voting for McCain?

im coming down same as aemd at #37. not voting. sitting it out. none of the above.

basta.

better figure out a way to vote three times, democrat.

51. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008
52. marisacat - 24 August 2008

LOL I am wiht Oriana Fallacci, who said of the election between Berlusconi and Prodi that she’d not be sneezing on herself…. 😉

53. marisacat - 24 August 2008

48

I reemmber specifically because I used it in my last letter to Feinstein Boxer and Pelosi, that Jonathan Turley said of the Alito hearings (which were shameful beyond belief) that there was no evidence of a coherent cohesive Democratic party.

54. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008

53 – there was no evidence of a coherent cohesive Democratic party.

Well, except when they cash the checks from the credit card and telecom companies, then they’re pretty united.

55. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008
56. Madman in the Marketplace - 24 August 2008

McKinney on C-SPAN: revised times, house parties on Sept. 7

*Cynthia McKinney* came to DC and was videotaped in the C-SPAN studio in a *half-hour interview for Road to the White House*, which is *scheduled to air on Sunday, September 7 at 6:30 pm EST *(*NOT 6:00 pm *as previously noted) and *again at 9:30 pm EST the same night*. I think this gives us a unique opportunity of having enough lead time to both get the word out far and wide, list it on our website prominently, capture it that night for YouTube and our site, and organize fundraising house parties with Greens AND NON-Greens alike all over the country.

57. NYCO - 24 August 2008

The GOP has their own DNC website up now: http://www.notready08.com (“A Mile High, an Inch Deep”)

Unfortunately, it causes my browser to crash, so I can’t see what charges they are leveling. LOL. The flies are still hurling themselves at that open window!

58. baypraire - 24 August 2008

Anxious Party Hopes to Show Strong Obama

Mr. Obama’s aides said they had learned from what they described as the mistake of the 2004 Democratic convention — when aides to Senator John Kerry’s campaign sought to forbid convention speakers from going after President Bush — and would use their time to draw contrasts with Senator John McCain, particularly on the economy and his opposition to abortion rights.

so thats why bob casey jr and bill ritter were invited to speak. they’re going to challenge mccain’s opposition to a woman’s right to choose! what a great bunch of guys in the male democratic leadership. they’re going to try and scare women into voting by lying to them about how their party is all about protecting their rights and the other one isn’t.

good thing the idiots learned from past mistakes, now they can immediately begin creating new ones.

59. marisacat - 24 August 2008

Meanwhile the R, at their convention, will wear buttons that say ”Vote President Hussein”.

I mean it really is not a match up.

60. marisacat - 24 August 2008

Oh and remember Obama apologised today for saying “hell”. You really have to hear the clip. The stammers, the pauses, the re stating of words and then later the apology.

argh.

61. marisacat - 25 August 2008

via Ambinder:

Vice President Cheney will travel abroad beginning September 2, 2008

[immediately following his speech at the RNC —Mcat].

President Bush has asked the Vice President to travel to Azerbaijan, Georgia, Ukraine and Italy for discussions with these key partners on issues of mutual interest. The Vice President will meet with President Aliyev of Azerbaijan, President Saakashvili of Georgia, President Yushchenko of Ukraine, and President Napolitano and Prime Minister Berlusconi of Italy, as well as senior officials of their respective governments. In addition to meetings with foreign leaders, the Vice President will attend and address the Ambrosetti forum entitled, “Intelligence on the World, Europe and Italy” in Lake Como, Italy.

62. marisacat - 25 August 2008

How Biden and Biden-bites sold Obama and Ob-mites on picking him.

Gag away! Oh and Biden’s father WAS a car dealer. It’s in their genes.
All i can say is Ob better win Scranton, and PA in fact. LOL

63. Heather-Rose Ryan - 25 August 2008

Logging in from vacation to say- OMFG, Biden??? Could it get any worse? What a despicable creep that guy is, with his constant aggressive-chimp teeth-baring. Talk about Bush being the Smirking Chimp, Biden has him beat by miles. In the unlikely event that this ticket gets elected, I dread the possibility that Obama might meet an untimely end and we’re all stuck with PRESIDENT BIDEN. Can you imagine it? I would have to move out of the country.

Obama’s advisers must either be wildly incompetent or have a death wish. Or both.

I’m not voting.

64. NYCO - 25 August 2008

Is it just me, or is this convention theme a little… clunky?

The 2008 Convention: Americans Gathering To Change The Course Of A Nation

Is that what they’re really “theming” it as?

65. marisacat - 25 August 2008

very clunky. considering the design of the stage, they really should theme it Disco Nation, and be done with it.

66. NYCO - 25 August 2008

Wow. First Reagan, then Thatcher.

Britain’s “Iron Lady” Thatcher Has Dementia

I remember, when news came that Reagan had Alzheimer’s, not feeling very surprised. Nothing to do with his political views… it just didn’t come as a huge shock, as I guess I always felt he was kind of doddering even when he was at his sharpest. The most current thinking on Alzheimer’s and related dementia is that it really is set in stone from birth; you’re either going to be sharp into your old age or you’re going to be average or you’re going to go prematurely.

But they also think that mental activity can help stave off “normal” sorts of old-age dementia, which makes me wonder if towering world figures who believe they have done and controlled it all, have no mental horizons left to them after they leave office. I know — two world leaders of a particular political stripe are a very poor scientific sample! Still, one wonders. As my parents get older, I see their behavior changing. It’s not so much they’re losing their memory, but they’re losing their ability to cope with things, they act a little more childish at times (especially when angry at something)… sigh.

67. marisacat - 25 August 2008

My mother’s eldest sister had what was diagnosed, admittedly in the early 80s, as Alzheimers rather than another form of dementia. Two other sisters and one brother certainly never got it… and she was more retiring in a sense than any of the other siblings. Suffered real clinical depression after each birth, not really well recognised in the 30s… and so on…

Interesting illness… now the diagnoses tend, depending on if one has good doctors, tend to be careful to distinguish various forms of dementia from Alzheimer’s.

68. NYCO - 25 August 2008

Yes, I think many people with depressive tendencies mask it well until old age when they no longer have the pressures of life to keep them going. If they ever “get off the horse” (retire, etc) some of them have trouble getting back on and it’s all downhill… Then again, if they’ve coped by remaining creative and inquisitive, maybe it affects them less. My mom was laid off from a part-time job a few years ago (she had taken early retirement due to a health issue) and she has never really been the same since. She’s never been a social butterfly, but at the same time she seems to need a minimum of being on the social periphery, and without a job for the first time in her life (including being a stay-at-home mom, since kids are long grown up), she hasn’t got that; and she’s not a joiner of social groups, so it’s impossible to suggest that to her (and she’s convinced there are no other part-time jobs out there for her, which isn’t necessarily true). But her situation seems to me the sort of thing that can be staved off by keeping her active, giving her fun experiences, taking her places etc so I’m not overly concerned.

69. NYCO - 25 August 2008

So much for unity: nobody can even get their insults straight.

A black delegate for Hillary Rodham Clinton says she was called an ”Uncle Tom” by Illinois Senate President Emil Jones, one of Barack Obama’s political mentors. Chicago political consultant Delmarie Cobb says Jones made the remarks Saturday night while discussing her support for Clinton. She called the remark ”fighting words” and unacceptable. Jones, who also is black, said Monday that he never uttered the slur. He says he referred to Cobb and other Clinton supporters as ”doubting Thomases.”

He is Risen!

But seriously, this is genuinely sad.

70. marisacat - 25 August 2008

well Emil Jones who, according to local S S Chicago alternative press, clearly said in 2004 he was ‘getting himself a senator’ is mimicing what went on agaisnt Clinton black supporters, electeds, from Iowa to the South, in the line up.

Several hold outs were called self haters, told they were afraid of winning with a black man and threatened with Obama backed challengers. It rode under the radar of the louder (and not inaccurate) calls about Clinton racially charged statements.

Good luck to someone. I feel utterly free of the Democratic party, but to observe. Axelrod has long bathed in race politics and Chicago politics, not saying it is rare or anythng new, but he has. From Ferrer in NYC to Deval to Ob

71. ms_xeno - 25 August 2008

hrh, we’re never going to get anywhere if you keep tiptoeing around your real opinions like this. :p

72. marisacat - 25 August 2008

hmm Gil Gross on KGO radio from Denver is saying that Minneapolis will not be the armed camp that Denver is… interesting. Will see what I can find on that later.

73. NYCO - 25 August 2008

I just don’t understand how the Democrats can possibly hope for a meaningful bounce out a convention that is followed up the very next week by their opposition’s convention. Do they normally follow so hard on each other? I don’t see how the Dems can get any memes started.

74. marisacat - 25 August 2008

hmm pretty sure there usually is several days between. IIRC it ws longer than that in 2004, Dems had theirs end of July (I think) and R about three weeks later.

Oh yeah I don’t see any bump for Ob off this. The talk is all Hillary Bill and division and PUMAS and polls and then a little Teddy.

It’s amusing.

75. ms_xeno - 25 August 2008

NYCO, #64:

They should go with Mcat’s old nickname: Gums-A-Go-Go. Short, snappy and informative. Plus you can save money by using a smaller banner to print on.

76. ms_xeno - 25 August 2008

Hah. Sorry. Bad phrasing, Mcat once referred to the DP as Gums-A-Go-Go.

77. NYCO - 25 August 2008

I think Tuesday is the day I’ll tune in. I hope Paterson gets to speak in prime time (his subject: fire and brimstone on the economy), and Hillary’s speech should be entertaining, or at least the crowd should be.

78. wilfred - 25 August 2008

#66 Dementia or just plain demented? If so, how can they tell as I couldn’t decide which both had in the 80’s?

79. marisacat - 25 August 2008

The line up Thursday night is

Jon Bon Jovi then Ob then Springsteen.

What is the free food, I wonder?

80. marisacat - 25 August 2008

Well it seems that Thatcher also suffered a series of small strokes which unless Alzheiner’s was diagnosed first, would indicate it was stroke related. My mother had little trouble til near the end, when she had a series of small stokes, then a slightly larger one nearer the end.

The Guardian.

So who knows.

81. NYCO - 25 August 2008

79. Isn’t it loaves and fishes?

82. marisacat - 25 August 2008

Loaves and fishes… I shuld have realised!

83. NYCO - 25 August 2008

You know… it’s shit like this that reminds me of why Hillary is so unpopular with many in the first place.

84. liberalcatnip - 25 August 2008

I’m voting for McCain.

hehe

So, it’s Wife v Wife Day today. Michelle giving Teh Big Speech (If You Only Knew Barack) and Cindy McCain is off to Georgia (because they need her there, right?). Maybe I should go to Georgia. Seems to be the hot vacation spot this summer.

85. NYCO - 25 August 2008

Supposedly a big “Hillarians for McCain” demonstration on the mean streets of Denver a little while ago. I wonder if they have been remanded to Gitmo on the Platte.

86. liberalcatnip - 25 August 2008

Here we go. I’m gonna cry. Pass the tissues.

🙂

87. liberalcatnip - 25 August 2008

I think Blitzer just had an orgasm.

88. marisacat - 25 August 2008

I’m guessing Cindy is going to Georgia under the auspices of her biggest charity… I forget the name of it.. a cuple ofmonths ago she went to Vietnam.. and iirc a couple of neighboring countries.

89. marisacat - 25 August 2008

Tonight is fast becoming the Love Teddy til He Dies night… Michelle is kinda second string.

Ooops.

90. marisacat - 25 August 2008

I just read, she is going with the UN Food Mission…

91. liberalcatnip - 25 August 2008

It’s still a way for her to try and show up Michelle on the day of her speech. Not that I like Michelle – she seems awfully cranky to me.

92. marisacat - 25 August 2008

nuuuu thred……………..

LINK

……………………… 8) ……………………

93. marisacat - 25 August 2008

91

oh I agree.. I think their angle is ‘we shut and do, the others are all chatty new people, impressed with themselves’. Hell… It may work. If I hear one more time that the Obamas need to reintroduce themselves I will upchuck air.


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