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Just a thread……. thru the night… 16 September 2008

Posted by marisacat in Inconvenient Voice of the Voter.


Anxiety is writ large on the faces of men watching share prices tumble on a stock exchange screen in Mumbai, India. [AP via BBC]

Mind the windows… guard against mass defenestration!




1. marisacat - 16 September 2008

Asia Markets mostly about 5% off… Seoul off 6.10

What a shock. But, remain confident! As Paulson said! We are victorious, closer and closer to our own shores, but we are winning!

2. marisacat - 16 September 2008

The Pakistanis have said, officially, they will fire back. hmm looking for a report…

3. marisacat - 16 September 2008

Oh I am sure they will turn it around. Pronto, whether with Pres Ob or Pres McC:

When General David Petraeus steps down today as the commander of US forces in Iraq however, he will have little time to savour the plaudits from fellow soldiers and the Bush Administration.

Instead the politically savvy paratrooper will swap the Iraqi frying pan for the Afghan fire. General Petraeus will take command of all US forces in the Middle East and Central Asia and with it the unenviable task of turning round the increasingly desperate fight faced by US and Nato forces in Afghanistan — a war that he conceded was “headed in the wrong direction”.

4. marisacat - 16 September 2008

Ken Silverstein in Harper’s on the Bi partisan financial collapse. IN Washington Bablyon and not behind a sub wall.

The last line:

So how will the presidential campaigns and congressional candidates seek to politically exploit the collapse of the financial sector? Very, very carefully.

5. Heather-Rose Ryan - 16 September 2008

From an article about a book on web searches:

Tancer said the current obsession with celebrities was also reflected through web data, with celebrity websites garnering more attention than sites devoted to religion, politics, well-being and diets combined — and no sign that this is waning.

This celebrity mentality had also overlapped into the November presidential election in the United States with surfers looking for images of Republican vice presidential candidate Sara Palin rather than looking for her policies.

“A lot of the focus around the candidates in general is image based. People want to know how tall Barack Obama is and also to search for their families,” he said.

“You have to get far down in the search terms to link the search for a candidate with any issue.”

Well, I have said for years now that the Dems should be grooming a movie or sports star for public office.

But no, they’re too obsessed with impressing the religious types.

6. wilfred - 16 September 2008

I have to say listening to McCain and then Biden on CNBC the difference was as huge as the Grand Canyon. McCain talked in meaningless generalities about ‘time for some regulation’ (toothless of course) and stupid bromides and bringing up Teddy Roosevelt’s name as if it was going to get us out of this mess.

Biden was actually surprisingly impressive. He brought up concrete example after concrete example and swatted the complete lack of regulation and the demanded transparency of these companies. He gave specific examples in regards to Bear Stearns and Lehman and the subprime loans, and riffed easily on these subjects and mentioned twice that bankruptcy laws must be changed to protect the average person, not the corporations. And yes, I know Biden voted for that law after getting three changes he insisted on so he’s not anywhere near pure here. He also talked about putting Americans to work with government help to rebuild the infrastructure. He was channeling Franklin, not Teddy. He blasted the hedge funds and explained why they were a mess from a regulatory point of view. He knew his stuff well.

It was like watching the difference between someone clueless and a mere puppet/figurehead to someone who could come in and actually do something constructive. Who knows if anyone can turn what Bushco has done to this country without a Depression but giving the R’s 4 more years is just insanity.

7. marisacat - 16 September 2008

and riffed easily on these subjects and mentioned twice that bankruptcy laws must be changed to protect the average person, not the corporations.

oh please. He was riffing to the ignorant, there. That ia criminal law. They could nto even bother to protect people whose troubles are from medical bills.

8. Heather-Rose Ryan - 16 September 2008

Yes, McCain is clueless, but Biden is a babbling hack. I don’t trust a word that comes out of his mouth, including “and” and “the”.

This country is in a sad state when these are the choices we’re given.

9. marisacat - 16 September 2008

Be interesting to see how this plays out (via Mike Allen Politico email)

SCOOP – Politico’s John Bresnahan, ‘Cash-poor Obama says no to Reid’:

‘Earlier this month, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid made a personal appeal to Barack Obama:

Help me grow the Democrats’ Senate majority by sharing some of the $77 million you’ve got in the bank. Obama’s campaign said no. Although Democratic insiders say a better deal could still come, the Obama campaign so far has agreed only to let Senate Democrats use Obama’s name – as well as those of his wife and running mate – in mail and online fundraising pitches. The campaign has planned no joint fundraising events with House or Senate Democrats, and insiders say none is likely to be held before Election Day. In rejecting a direct request from his Senate leader, Obama has put a fine point on the financial pressures he’s feeling as the presidential race turns toward the fall.’

10. wilfred - 16 September 2008

oh please. He was riffing to the ignorant, there.

No, he was riffing on CNBC where the analysts who know this stuff backwards will be parsing any mistake he might make to an audience who is a more conversant in this stuff than your average ‘ignorant’ American.

These markets must be regulated and quickly as it’s the only thing standing between us and another Depression, that is if it’s not too late. These mistakes were colossal and avoidable and McCain is dangerously stupid on economics. As far as no difference, i disagree. I’ll take 8 years of another Clinton-like Administration than relive the last 8 years over again. Thanks, but no thanks.

11. NYCO - 16 September 2008

Well CNBC had an “expert” on last night who claimed the economy was “fundamentally sound” underneath all this Lehman / Merrill / AIG nastiness (and plunging world markets), which is rather like saying the planet after a nuclear armageddon is “fundamentally sound” because the sun is still rising and setting and gravity is still sucking.

It’s mainly a mix of very stupid people and marginally less stupid people talking their heads off about it now.

12. Heather-Rose Ryan - 16 September 2008

Who said there was “no difference”? There are plenty of differences, but they both suck.

13. wilfred - 16 September 2008

NYCO, that man was the hard conservative guest commentator who is wrong about everything. If you watch the show consistently you see him undercut later by the ones who know what they are talking about.

It took awhile for me to get the rhythm of CNBC once I took over my own investments and trading. You lose credibility with the investor when you give stupid advice and they bring up what people have said in the past as a track record defines you there. As for bloggers, financial bloggers are more rabid than anything i’ve ever seen on political ones.

14. aemd - 16 September 2008

Interbank lending jumps 3.33 percentage points overnight.

“The overnight dollar rate soared 3.33 percentage points to 6.44 percent today, its biggest jump in at least seven years, according to the British Bankers’ Association. The rate was as low as 2.07 percent in June.”

15. marisacat - 16 September 2008

where the analysts who know this stuff backwards will be parsing any mistake he might make to an audience who is a more conversant in this stuff than your average ‘ignorant’ American.

Who do yo think supported the Bankruptcy bill Wilfred? Business, corps, financial and credit services… To work hard at thisi blog to shore up Biden (and his votes and his partisan electioneering) is the heighth of pushing against reality.

You should table for Obama Biden and register voters… man phone banks and pass out flyers.

As I have said ad nauseum I think he SHOULD win. People should live with the Jesus they bargained with and for. And if he does not, the whining will be infernal.



Thanks for the bloomberg link… I am behind, I spent the early morning on il papa and and Sarko’s unfolding reality.

16. marisacat - 16 September 2008

btw, Charlie Rose had an excelelnt round table last night.. (I don’t know elsewhere, but he repeats the following day at Noon here)… a lot of truths got told. Including the one I popped in at the end of the last thread, that no one, not even for a dollar, wanted Lehman. Their books are known to be a mess.

Lawrence Summers, Charles Gasparino, Andrew Ross Sorkin, Nouriel Roubini, Josh Rosner

– fortunately there was very little of Summers.

link to the vid when up (not yet, I just looked)

17. wilfred - 16 September 2008

Working to shore up Biden? LOL, i slam him as much as I say when he does something well, but i’m only wrong when i don’t slam 24/7?. Thanks, I get enough black and white from the Fundies thank you.

People aren’t all bad or good, sometimes people are good on some issues and bad on others and sometimes in-between. I just call it as I see them. It obviously doesn’t pass the test with you of slam everyone all the time but that’s too black and white for me and you know it always has been all these years. So because I don’t criticize Biden 100% I need to man the Obama tables? My take is there is a mediocre choice and a very bad one.

I know who drove the bankruptcy bill and I deplore it. I’m glad whichever politicians made it even less horrible than it would have been had the R’s and the lobbyists gotten all their way, that’s US politics, always has been and always will be. That bill was also supported by the credit card companies, does everyone at this blog cut up all their cards that day because they supported it?

18. marisacat - 16 September 2008

In addition to this, I read two nights ago that Sharia courts are now fully legitimised in the UK, for disputes and family law. How nice.

Creationism should be taught in science classes as a legitimate point of view, according to the Royal Society, putting the august science body on a collision course with the Government.

The Rev Michael Reiss, a biologist and its director of education, said it was self-defeating to dismiss as wrong or misguided the 10 per cent of pupils who believed in the literal account of God creating the Universe and all living things as related in the Bible or Koran. It would be better, he said, to treat creationism as a world view.

His comments put him at odds with fellow scientists as well as the Government. Former Fellows of the Royal Society include Charles Darwin, who first proposed the theory of evolution. ::snip::

Apparently there is an unwillingness to offend muslim, hindu or fundie children.

19. wilfred - 16 September 2008

#18 I saw that one on the BBC website. Italy, Germany, France and the UK keep swinging harder to the right. I wonder if the recession now arriving in Europe will make it worse or bring about the rise of the left again. The right has been in power there for a year or more in most of those countries so it would be nice for them to get put on the griddle. It won’t be pretty in the meantime.

20. wilfred - 16 September 2008

Market just passed +100 points today, even after the Asian markets tanked. It looked to be a repeat of yesterday but isn’t, so far anyway but the day is still young.

21. marisacat - 16 September 2008

I just read that the Galveston memorial to the 1900 hurricane did not survive.

22. marisacat - 16 September 2008

LOL Makes the author of Londonistan look right.

what a shame.

23. Heather-Rose Ryan - 16 September 2008

21 – I just looked through the news stories – this is all I found:

On the Galveston seawall, which kept back the worst parts of the storm surge, Ike sheared in half the plaque on the statue of victims of the 1900 storm who are raising their arms in mourning.

I hope the statue itself is still OK.

24. Heather-Rose Ryan - 16 September 2008

17 People aren’t all bad or good

Except for Sarah Palin, of course. What would we ever do for entertainment without the female piñatas – so much fun for so many centuries!

Speaking of which, Sullivan continues his onslaught – now he’s agitated about Palin having had amniocentesis, which poses a risk to the unborn child!!!

She-Devil indeed.

25. marisacat - 16 September 2008

hmm it does sound like the statue made it… I had thought the very next morning that I read it did survive… but then seeing a reference that it had not made me wonder.

There is too much news right now! I can’t keep up!

26. marisacat - 16 September 2008

The Sully thing is odd. IIRC he bitched and moaned about the amnio early on, saying it, ahving one, was not compatible iwth her fundie beliefs. But I have since read that amnio can identify things that have nothing to do with opting for abortion. Not that I presume to know much of anything about pregnancy or childbirth. Apparently less than Sully does.

Geesh is he satisfied the baby is hers even.

27. marisacat - 16 September 2008

hmm at Josh Marshall’s

Top Democrats’ Private Plea: Bring In Reinforcements To Attack McCain

Several Dem strategists convened a call last week urging donors to put money into outside groups that can attack McCain in key states.
# Flashback: Obama Called Off 3rd Party Groups In May

Obama Called Off 3rd Party Groups In May

he sure did…

28. Heather-Rose Ryan - 16 September 2008

26 – oh, has he been beating this particular drum before? I missed it.

Well, they all need to make up their minds – is she a hardcore fundie or is she not? If not, then who and what does she represent?

29. lucid - 16 September 2008

More importantly Wilfred, Biden voted to repeal Glass Steagall – which to my mind is the direct cause of the current crisis… nice that he’s playing monday morning quarterback and all, but own your votes senator.

30. marisacat - 16 September 2008

yeah I can’t go back and find the entries here on Glass Steagall, but it was thoroughly discussed here last year… also with Dem Throat and Marie contributing… There were some good diares at Dkos that were linked to here.

I posted a quick google search link the other night. But, G-S is a fundamental to what is happening.

31. lucid - 16 September 2008

So WAMU got downgraded to ‘junk status’ last night, yet it’s shares have gone up 14% today? That makes so much sense!

32. wilfred - 16 September 2008

Except for Sarah Palin,

lol, and Sully evidently. Too bad for all of us that your finger never points toward yourself.

The big difference between those two nightmares is one may be your next leader and perish the thought that either ever will. And unlike you and Palin i assume, I happily took on Sully in front of a live audience at the New School a few years ago and got a nice round of applause afterward. I’d happily do the same with Gov. Palin.

33. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

Amnio is common for older, pregnant women afaik and it’s used to identify potential problems – including those that can be corrected by fetal surgery.

Sully needs to get his head out of Palin’s uterus.

34. marisacat - 16 September 2008

well wilfred… have you calmed your mind over the Palin daughter pregnancy? As to which trimester she is in?

35. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

I’m in spam jail.

36. wilfred - 16 September 2008

#31 Not quite though Lucid. Many times a name stock is bought low while it’s falling and day traders make quite a sum. Fanny and Freddie went to $7.00 when the real shit hit the fan (Freddie always traded lower). Two days later Fanny was trading at $17 before it dropped again. That was a huge 36 hour profit for those investors who timed it right.

There were times when Fanny and Freddie were trading at $2.00 a few weeks later that they would hit $3.00 to $4.00 during a trading day and those traders made a whopping 50% to 100% in one day. It’s very risky and has huge upsides along with those downsides. Not for the faint of heart and not for the long term when it gets to that point.

37. wilfred - 16 September 2008

#33 what makes you think i care?

I commented once the first day that there was a rumor of it (which turned out to be correct) saying it would be ‘interesting’ to know if it was a fact or not and if memory serves nothing since on that topic.

Can i ask, where is this coming from Marisa? You usually have a really good memory of this stuff, are you confusing me with someone who has been posting about the topic of her kids instead of her policies and beliefs?

38. marisacat - 16 September 2008

why would which trimester a 17 year old is in be of interest wilfred? To you?

39. lucid - 16 September 2008

I suppose they need to squeeze the last race out of a horse before they send it to the glue factory… seems cruel and unusual punishment to me. Then again, there are reasons I decided against getting an MBA – this being one of them.

40. wilfred - 16 September 2008

where Marisa, you seem to be alluding to something i have no memory of? I remember commenting once that their was a rumor her teenage daughter was pregnant which turned out to be correct. Where is the trimester stuff coming from?

I just went back to “Hosanna, I’ve seen the Light” on Aug 28 which is the day Palin Veep broke and can’t find anything i said that i wouldn’t say again today. We were all just reporting the facts that we were all finding on her as they came in and I feel the same way then as i do now when i said it appears McCain had picked his own Quayle.

What are you really trying to say Marisa? Exactly what?

41. Heather-Rose Ryan - 16 September 2008

32 wilfred – Sullivan has his good points, but his misogyny unfortunately outweighs them As for taking him on face to face, I would love to do so.

38 MCat – such a topic should not be of interest to anyone outside the immediate family. This is gutter stuff – invasion of privacy mixed with scorn of women.

42. marisacat - 16 September 2008

well here it is wilfred. What do trimesters matter?


43. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008
44. wilfred - 16 September 2008

Tri-mesters don’t matter Marisa. Jeebus. Read that comment.

It was talking about the pregnancy. The topic of pregnancy was presented initially as ‘Palin’s daughter is in her 2nd trimester’ so that was the language used to comment. If the topic was ‘Palin’s daughter is pregnant’ my response would have been phrased the same way. Find anything before or after that shows that train of thought was my intention or interest.

The other question of the day iirc was people were talking about a Kos diary that said Palin’s kid wasn’t hers. The reason trimesters were being discussed amongst people was because that info proved that Kos diary to be untrue.

Here’s a question. After thousands of e-mails over many years and thousands of threads, do you really think the trimester was important to me particularly? If so, why, and for what purpose? I couldn’t be more perplexed.

45. lucid - 16 September 2008

Well hey, at least they won’t be joining NATO anytime soon…

46. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

mcat, you were looking for a link about Pakistan firing at US forces. Here’s one.

47. AlanSmithee - 16 September 2008

The Plaster Saint and his warmongering buddy are raking in the Hollywood dough, courtesy of former Hillary gal-pal Babs. No doubt this will hearten the do-nothing lesser-evil dipshit wing of the demotard party, knowing that Yentl herself is battling in the Chicago Empty Suit’s corner!

48. marisacat - 16 September 2008

The most interesting thing was not about the baby that was just born but that Palin’s 16 year old daughter is possibly in her 2nd trimester.

I dunno wilfred. Indicates interest to me. The game then was to count the weeks. Could both in utero and out of utero be the daughter’s? Was the fmaily lying about how pregnant she was? Maybe she was less than 12 weeks and then both babies could be hers. Tracking the flight SP took the day “her water broke”. Did she give birth? Or what? Sully demanding her medical records be released.

And it was partisan Democrats doing it. Sully is a fellow traveller this season. How blessed the party is! Desperate for anything, anything at all, to knock out an entity that might steal evangelical and pentecostal voters from them. They have spent gazillions to attract the preachers to the Dem cratic party. And made a ton of promises of that I am certain. Having to do with gays and women.

I’ve wasted time gogleing the Dir of outreach for Ob, Joshua DuBois, the former associate pastor of a tiny pentecostal church in MASS.

A church taht is a member of the Assemblies of God churches. He’s been with obama since 2005 – and refuses to discuss his personal view of abortion. At all in any way.

Or googling Kirbyjon Caldwell (formerly of the Bush camp, amrried Jenna), pastor of a “faith and finance” church in suburban Houston. Who wiped his web site clean of “cure the gays” minsitries when gays found all that after Newsweek publicised what a big mover and shaker he is in Obama outreach.

So you know, I am opposed to Palin church, to Biden’s church and to the faith of Obama as well.

But the trimesters don’t add up to anything at all.

49. wilfred - 16 September 2008

Of course trimesters don’t, to me anyway. I read the thread again and it was the same day the Dkos diary was being hashed, which by the way i wasn’t interested in blogging about. What did interest me as it does about all Republicans and too many Democrats is that they are hypocrites and they expound one policy while living another.

Sorry if responding using that same terminology left the impression that was the focus, it truly wasn’t.

In that exact same post i said the scariest thing i learned about Palin that day was that she just got her passport in 2007. Hopefully that puts it in context.

50. NYCO - 16 September 2008

Russian stock market has crashed big time today. 17% down.

51. wilfred - 16 September 2008

Just caught the tail end of something about the FDA and 30 generic drugs made in India. It sounded like a recall or possibly something tainted. I’ll try and find a link.

52. wilfred - 16 September 2008

This sounds like it:

link to wsj

Weak or unadulterated drugs, some of which are AIDS drugs sent to Africa. Talk about life or death…..

53. marisacat - 16 September 2008

Apparently only Carly should be pretzeldentessa (not that any of the 4 should be, either):

I don’t think John McCain could run a major corporation. I don’t think Barack Obama could run a major corporation. I don’t think Joe Biden could. But it is not the same as being the president or vice president of the United States. It is a fallacy to suggest that the country is like a company, so of course, to run a business, you have to have a lifetime of experience in business, but that’s not what Sarah Palin, John McCain, Barack Obama or Joe Biden are doing.

54. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

53. She’s incredibly annoying in a right-wing absolutist kind of way and I get the feeling, when I watch her being interviewed, that she’s a bit miffed about not being the chosen one.

And her quote begs the question: what exactly would the pres and VP be doing then?

55. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

McCain/Palin aka “Peaches & Herb” will be Reunited in Ohio today.

56. marisacat - 16 September 2008
57. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008


mcjoan at dkos:

Building on Biden’s attack on McCain on the economy yesterday, Obama gave a hard-hitting economics speech today in Colorado.

” Obama rejected McCain’s call this morning for a national commission modeled after the bipartisan panel that investigated the 9/11 attacks as a desperate ploy, labeling it “the oldest Washington stunt in the book.”

“You pass the buck to a commission to study this problem,” Obama said, rejecting the measure as unnecessary. “We know how we got into this mess. What we need now is leadership that get us out. I’ll provide it. John McCain won’t.”

Flashback to this past January:

Unfair to Mr. Obama

Robert J. Samuelson’s Jan. 9 column, “Promises They Can’t Keep,” unfairly singled out Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) as not doing enough to address our nation’s long-term fiscal imbalance and entitlement program shortfalls.

Mr. Samuelson ignored, for instance, Mr. Obama’s support for the approach taken in the Bipartisan Fiscal Task Force bill I have offered with Sen. Judd Gregg (R-N.H.). Our bill would create a bipartisan panel of lawmakers and administration officials tasked with drafting legislation to address the long-term fiscal imbalance and entitlement shortfalls — legislation on which Congress would be required to vote.

Mr. Obama has indicated he would like to see several changes to our bill — such as moving back the timing to allow input from the next president and opening the task force’s proposal to amendment. But his support for the general task force approach is significant because it marks a break from the status quo and shows a commitment to seeking a bipartisan solution. Mr. Samuelson was told of Mr. Obama’s support for this approach, but he didn’t follow up with the senator’s staff. That’s not fair.


Mr. Samuelson is right to be concerned about our nation’s long-term budget outlook. But he is wrong to single out Mr. Obama, who is committed to putting our nation back on a sound fiscal course.


U.S. Senator (D-N.D.)

Chairman, Senate Budget Committee



58. marisacat - 16 September 2008

hmm I just heard Rosner, on the Charlie Rose panel, say, when asked “Where the hell are we in this”, that “we are a year a way from a Becorra (sp) panel”, the panel that was convened in the wake of 1929.

We may live in a world where those congressional panels and hearings are a joke, but still…………….

59. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

And they are sometimes a joke but other times they’re very necessary, afaic – especially when they bring in outside experts to clue everybody in. The main problem with them, of course, is the partisan nature of the questioning. Too many lawyer/politicians acting like they’re in a show trial.

60. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

Never a dull moment: Former FCC Chairman Blasts Claim That McCain Invented The Blackberry: He Is ‘So Out Of Touch’

But Al Gore really did invent the internets. 😉

61. marisacat - 16 September 2008

LOL someone emailed me this tidbit

Obama sidesteps reform in Illinois

Dennis Byrne
September 16, 2008

For those of you who still cling to the fantasy that Barack Obama is “about change,” you should note how he, or his minions, want nothing to do with reforming politics in Illinois, perhaps the most corrupt state in the Union.

“Throughout his political career, Barack Obama has fought for open and honest government,” proclaims his campaign Web site. Apparently, no longer. When the Democratic presidential candidate—now his party’s industrial-strength voice for our deliverance from political corruption everywhere—was asked by a reformer if he would help get his political mentor back home to get off the dime and move the most minimal of state ethics legislation toward passage, the Obama campaign sent word back that amounted to a “no.”

State Sen. Emil Jones (D-Chicago) is the Chicago machine politician who might have been most instrumental in jump-starting Obama’s political career. Now, as Illinois Senate president, Jones is the one sitting on the reform legislation, refusing to call it for an expected favorable vote before it officially dies of neglect.

62. Heather-Rose Ryan - 16 September 2008

49 wilfred: What did interest me as it does about all Republicans and too many Democrats is that they are hypocrites and they expound one policy while living another.

I didn’t buy that line of reasoning when it was used by “liberals/progressives” to justify mockery and insult of homosexuality during Gannongate and the Larry Craig airport furor, and I don’t buy it now that it’s used by the same type of people to justify mockery and insult of women.

If we don’t think it’s a “sin” to be gay or have sex before marriage, why put ourselves in the position of pointing fingers and sneering at others for those “transgressions”? We should be saying “Hey, nothing wrong with what they did, it’s too bad the people in their church/party condemn it.”

In the post Mcat linked to, wilfred, you said something about Palin being “unemployed” between 2003 and 2006. Did it ever occur to you that she was in the middle of raising a family? Do you consider that to be “unemployed”?

63. marisacat - 16 September 2008

oh what was that about not being for “dumb wars”?

The American War Moves to Pakistan
Bush’s War Widens Dangerously

By Tariq Ali

The decision to make public a presidential order of last July authorizing American strikes inside Pakistan without seeking the approval of the Pakistani government ends a long debate within, and on the periphery of, the Bush administration.

Senator Barack Obama, aware of this ongoing debate during his own long battle with Hillary Clinton, tried to outflank her by supporting a policy of U.S. strikes into Pakistan. Senator John McCain and Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin have now echoed this view and so it has become, by consensus, official U.S. policy.

Its effects on Pakistan could be catastrophic, creating a severe crisis within the army and in the country at large. The overwhelming majority of Pakistanis are opposed to the U.S. presence in the region, viewing it as the most serious threat to peace.

Why, then, has the U.S. decided to destabilize a crucial ally? Within Pakistan, some analysts argue that this is a carefully coordinated move to weaken the Pakistani state yet further by creating a crisis that extends way beyond the badlands on the frontier with Afghanistan. Its ultimate aim, they claim, would be the extraction of the Pakistani military’s nuclear fangs.

If this were the case, it would imply that Washington was indeed determined to break up the Pakistani state, since the country would very simply not survive a disaster on that scale::snip::


The place and part of th world that sinks empires, Afghanistan and into Pakistan.

64. marisacat - 16 September 2008

Amy had Tariq Ali on

AMY GOODMAN: And Senator Obama has made clear that he does believe that the US should engage in unilateral targets if there are high-value targets there that are not being dealt with by the Pakistani government.

TARIQ ALI: I think this was a big mistake that Senator Obama made. He will regret it, because I don’t think he was briefed on what the situation in Afghanistan is. [whoops — Mcat]

You know, historically, every time the US occupiers are cornered in a country, they try and blame the neighboring country—the same in Vietnam when they started bombing Cambodia, saying it was Cambodia’s faults.

The threats against Iran, even as we speak, and now the missions in Pakistan, the bombing raids in Pakistan, the killing of civilians in Pakistan, when the real crisis and the real problem is a war and an occupation inside Afghanistan which has gone badly wrong.

65. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

Don’t trust a hedge fund!!!!

66. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

Breaking via Reuters: Fed to provide roughly $85 billion bridge loan to AIG, take nearly 80 percent stake: source

67. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

53 – she’s kidding, right? SHE couldn’t run a major corporation, IIRC. MOST CEOs aren’t ‘running’ their corporations, they’re padding their stock prices w/ accounting tricks to puff up their compensation.

Of ALL of the cults of personality running amok in this country, the CEO one is the most puzzling and unjustified.

68. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

67. Oh stop being sexist!


69. marisacat - 16 September 2008

well they begged all day long for a rescue… and .. wow begging does it.

70. marisacat - 16 September 2008


I thought she screwed up HP royally. And I was not wrong… smarter people than I thught that.

71. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

Just as I predicted via e-mail to you, mcat – smelling that bailout. Me, who doesn’t know a hedge fund from a John Fund. 😉

72. CSTAR - 16 September 2008

Its ultimate aim, they claim, would be the extraction of the Pakistani military’s nuclear fangs.

If this were the case, it would imply that Washington was indeed determined to break up the Pakistani state, since the country would very simply not survive a disaster on that scale:

I never heard that before, but it might make sense starting from some strategic assumptions (that is assumptions about desirable outcomes and assumed facts). Somebody in Washington might have drawn the conclusion that a weak failed state or a lawless region with no state at all, and without access to nuclear weapons and located geographically far away from the US might be incapable of posing any threat, other than the occasional nutcase fanatic, willing to blow up a bus, far away, say in Mumbai. This together with a zero-tolerance no nukes policy vis–a-vis Iran, would be the strategy to “keep us safe”.

Hmm. Good lord, if this is true, who dreams this up? The exploding cigars division at the CIA I guess.

73. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

If I wasn’t so lazy, I might try to find out who the principles in Bear Stearns gave political contributions to, and then who Lehman’s did and compare. Toss in AIG and wonder why they waited a day between the sacrifice of one company and the bailout of the other.

Maybe someone in the business “press” could look into that.

I do find myself, tin foil hat firmly affixed, wondering if the sudden disinterest in propping up the failing con is timed so that the final collapse happens around January.

I know, I know … they tell us that the gov’t can’t exert that kind of control (which is why business blows so much money on lobbying, I guess).

74. marisacat - 16 September 2008

hmm I also heard that AIG is worth (whatever this means today) a TRILLION dollars. But were having trouble finding a few tens of billions, so ….

This reminds me of Fitzgerald’s Diamond as Big as The Ritz the bizarre fictional fabulousness of so much to do with America.

75. marisacat - 16 September 2008


well maybe not principles… but links are around to various congressional donations from Fred Fan and others. I have not seen BStearns mentioned. THink I posted the open secrets page for FredFan… and … maybe for Lehman.. but it is a bit of a blur

Too much news

76. marisacat - 16 September 2008

also, one of the roundtable at Charlie Rose (linked up thread) said no one wanted Lehman. “Not even for a dollar”… and commentary was made that their books are known to be a mess.

I did read today that some assets of Lehman will be sold. Again, whatever that means.

All they really do is show us hastily drawn cartoons..

77. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

74. Via Newsmeat, former AIG Chairman Maurice Greenberg donated $30,800 to the McCain campaign.

78. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

Bear Sterns CEO James Caynes’ contributions.

$65,150* Republican
$25,152 Democrat
$64,468 special interest
total: $154,770

79. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

Just one $2,500 donation listed to the RNC for 2008 though.

80. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

I know Fan/Fred gave a lot to both, and there were lots of stories about that, but not about the brokerage houses.

Might be nothing to it, just wondering.

81. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

Found something about Lehman:

A study by the Center for Responsive Politics, a Washington group that tracks campaign finance data, found that Lehman currently ranks No. 4 among all securities firms and investment banks in contributions to federal parties and candidates. Goldman Sachs, a perennial heavyweight on the political scene, leads the pack, having donated $4.3 million in this election cycle on the federal level.

This money comes mainly from individuals and, to a much lesser extent, company political action committees. Corporations are barred from making campaign contributions. Lehman’s donations amount to $1.9 million in this election cycle, after Goldman, Morgan Stanley ($2.7 million) and UBS ($2.3 million).

According to the center, nearly all of the donations from Lehman came from individual employees. A total of 64 percent of the donations went to Democrats, while 36 percent went to Republicans.

When it comes to the presidential race, Lehman employees were among the top contributors to both Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain. Lehman employees gave $370, 524 to Mr. Obama and $117,500 to Mr. McCain. While these numbers may appear small by Wall Street standards, donations to candidates are capped at $2,300 for the primary election and $2,300 for the general.

Among all big donors, Lehman was the 10th-largest donor to the Obama campaign and in 15th place for Mr. McCain. (For Mr. Obama, the top donor was Goldman at $691,930, and Merrill was the top donor for Mr. McCain at $298,413).

The center also calculates that Lehman is on track to spend $800,000 in lobbying this year, having spent $430,000 to date. Given the fact that the company is hoping that Washington might help in throwing it a lifeline, that may be money well spent.

82. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

Bear Stearns:

Political contributions

James E. Cayne, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Bear Stearns, is a Bush Pioneer having raised at least $100,000 for Bush in the 2004 presidential election. [4]

Bear Stearns gave $127,500 to federal candidates in the 2006 election through its political action committee – 25% to Democrats and 75% to Republicans. [5]

Other political campaign contributions:
P. Nicholas Hurtgen, Bush Pioneer, Texans for Public Justice, accessed August 2007.
Douglas R. Korn, Bush Pioneer, Texans for Public Justice, accessed August 2007.
Peter J. Murphy, Bush Pioneer, Texans for Public Justice, accessed August 2007.


83. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

Lehman in moderation, I think.

84. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

Names of current and former AIG execs & directors. I see a couple of Rockefellers there. Don’t know what that means.

85. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

82. Lehman in moderation, I think.

No, afaik, Lehman is in bankruptcy. 🙂

86. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

This story made me smile.

This is Generations of Hope, a nonprofit adoption agency that has designed a community to resemble a nurturing small town, complete with surrogate grandparents. Created out of a shuttered Air Force base, Generations of Hope seeks to rescue children from foster care and place them with adoptive parents who have moved here. About 30 children currently live with parents in 10 homes. The community is also home to 42 older people who have subsidized rent.

The program was the brainchild in the mid-1990s of Brenda Krause Eheart, who has a doctorate that focuses on child development. There are plans to replicate it in 11 other states, with support of about $7 million from the Kellogg Foundation.

The Heinz Foundation recently awarded Dr. Eheart $250,000 for her success in building a “community-based model for adoptive families and senior citizens,” money that Dr. Eheart said would “go back into our work.”

At the outset, Generations of Hope had the advantage of using existing homes left by the closing of Chanute Air Force Base. The new sites, more typically, will need to be developed from scratch, on donated land.

The program’s annual budget for the Rantoul site is $500,000, with roughly half coming from government aid. The rest comes from private donations and from the rent paid by older residents. Adoptive parents earn $19,000 and live rent-free in one of the split-level ranch-style homes built for the base. The older residents, who agree to do community service, like tutoring or yard work, pay a reduced rent of $300.

Dr. Eheart believed the children would thrive with the love of these volunteer grandparents. But she could not have guessed how much the therapy would work in the other direction.

At the heart of the program is the ethos that parenthood and grandparenthood are permanent.

“I know of two ways to raise children: you have them biologically or you adopt them,” said Dr. Eheart, a former researcher at the University of Illinois. “Foster care is an oxymoron.”

87. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

ICH has a number of interesting articles about the financial meltdown.

88. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

72. Or has the US government decided it’s just not interested in protecting India for which a lawless Pakistan would be a nightmare?

89. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

87 – or is a lawless Pakistan an excuse to sell more weapons to India?

90. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

Ghost Of Satire Past

I’ve received a number of emails asking, “Wasn’t Fey great as Palin? Didn’t she nail her to the wall?”

Yeah, I suppose. Imitations are easy, perhaps the laziest form of comedy, much less what passes for parody. Fey was already nine-tenths there on looks alone. Affect a pinched, northern accent, and you’ve got it. What SNL did once Fey got it was the typical lighthearted, breezy bit the show is known for — shape the caricature (Palin’s a perky dope) and repeat it ad nauseum, which I expect will happen with Fey’s Palin throughout the election season. Palin’s camp naturally said that the candidate found Fey amusing, and I’ve no doubt that Palin herself will appear on SNL in the near future.

This is network “satire,” 2008. A comedy celeb gently imitating an emerging political celeb, who could very well be the next vice-president. Nothing too sharp or penetrating. Nothing that exposes the criminality just beneath the false, bleached smiles. Whatever it might have been a thousand years ago, SNL is currently part of the propaganda process, not making public figures uncomfortable, but making its audience comfortable with public figures. The routines are repeated all over the news channels and online, which drives home the perception that it’s all in good fun, that those who seek to rule us aren’t all bad, especially if they laugh along with the comics portraying them.

91. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

87. There’s that too.

92. CSTAR - 16 September 2008

Mesdames et Monsieurs

I am now the proud owner of (part of) 79.9% of a large insurance company.

93. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008

Wow, Louise Slaughter was SUCH a shameless hack in favor of the donks’ caving on offshore oil drilling on Rachel Maddow’s show.

94. Madman in the Marketplace - 16 September 2008
95. CSTAR - 16 September 2008

90 Drill here, Drill now.

96. marisacat - 16 September 2008


3 of Madman’s and one from catnip out of Moderaton…

sorry for the delay

97. marisacat - 16 September 2008


I saw a documentary on that community… one child, in his late teens, had been in 79 homes as a foster child.

98. marisacat - 16 September 2008

This was posted two hours ago ET from BS at Politico.. maybe the boyos running for pretzel have pungled up a comment:

September 16, 2008
Categories: Barack Obama

A few hours after the Fed announced an unprecedented plan to take over a giant insurer, I’ve got statements from Chris Dodd, David Paterson, and (first, of course) Chuck Schumer.

Nothing yet from the presidential candidates though; and while the crisis on Wall Street is obviously now the central issue in the race, it’s if anything slightly less all-enveloping than might have been expected.

By Ben Smith 11:14 PM

99. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

McCain, Obama Campaign Promises Imperiled by Wall Street Rescue

Sept. 17 (Bloomberg) — The casualties of continuing tumult on Wall Street will include campaign promises of the next U.S. president, whether it’s John McCain or Barack Obama.

The federal government has committed hundreds of billions of dollars this year to stimulate the economy, rescue failing Bear Stearns Cos. and American International Group Inc., and take over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It may extend hundreds of billions more to buy distressed mortgage debt, prop up Detroit automakers and stave off recession.

Those expenses, on top of a 2009 budget deficit projected to approach $500 billion, will make it hard for Obama to find money for universal health care, clean energy and early education, or for McCain to enact $3.3 trillion in promised tax cuts over eight years.

“It’s going to be a very hostile environment for major new initiatives,” said Robert Bixby, executive director of the Concord Coalition, a non-partisan budget watchdog group. Paying for financial-industry rescue measures will be the next president’s top task, he says, “rather than some exciting new agenda, like health care for all or taxes for none.”

Good point.

100. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

It’s official. I really am a commie.

101. marisacat - 16 September 2008

at some point they may be propping up the FDIC. One carefully managed vagueness in all of this is how many banks will be affected.

Good luck to someone.

102. liberalcatnip - 16 September 2008

101. Funny you mentioned the FDIC because I was just thinking about what would happen if it went under somehow. Just how much can it handle financially?

103. diane - 16 September 2008

Was wondering myself whether some person/persons at Lehman Brothers stepped on the wrong toes.

Some odds and ends if anyone wants to do any further sleuthing re Lehman Brothers, Annual and Quarterly Reports; all SEC filings

Management/Board of Directors (per the web page):

Senior Management

Richard S. Fuld, Jr.
Riccardo Banchetti
Jasjit S. Bhattal
Gerald A. Donini
Eric Felder
Scott J. Freidheim
Michael Gelband
David Goldfarb
Alex Kirk
Hyung S. Lee
Stephen M. Lessing
Ian T. Lowitt
Herbert H. McDade III
Hugh E. McGee III
Christian Meissner
Thomas A. Russo
George H. Walker

Board of Directors
Richard S. Fuld, Jr.
Michael L. Ainslie
John F. Akers
Roger S. Berlind
Thomas H. Cruikshank
Marsha Johnson Evans
Sir Christopher Gent
Jerry A. Grundhofer
Roland A. Hernandez
Henry Kaufman
John D. Macomber

Too weird, Lehman Brothers ranked 29th of Business Week’s just published (“on newstands September 5th”) “Best Places to Launch a Career” (but ugh, wouldn’t want to work at many places on that list.)

104. diane - 16 September 2008

Hmmmm, ‘fascinating,’ googled Lehman Brothers and Ernst Young (their public auditors ) not a single hit re the bankruptcy ….

105. diane - 17 September 2008

Anyone heard from Bay?

Given the Ike damage, seems there’s a media blackout.

106. marisacat - 17 September 2008


not since she last popped in… I dropped an email I think yesterday, as the devastation is so great and again they are saying weeks without electricity or water. I am hoping her house was in a protected spot

107. marisacat - 17 September 2008

Breaking News from ABCNEWS.com:


108. marisacat - 17 September 2008

just put the news on, Galveston mayor suspended “look and leave”…

109. Intermittent Bystander - 17 September 2008


A car bomb and rocket attack on the US embassy in Yemen has killed at least 16 people, including civilians and Yemeni security guards, Yemen officials said.
Security sources said six members of the Yemeni security forces, six attackers, and four bystanders were killed in the attack, which occurred at about 0830 (0530 GMT).


“It shook everything in my home,” said Saddam Hussein, a Yemen man living about 200 yards from the embassy. “One big explosion, then smaller explosions, and gunfire.”

The vehicle bomb exploded at the main gate, said embassy spokesman Ryan Gliha. There did not appear to be any major damage to the embassy building, Gliha said.

The Yemen embassy has been the target of numerous attacks since 2002. In the most recent assault, three mortar rounds hit a nearby school for girls in March, killing a security guard and injuring about 20 girls and others. Other attacks include one in 2006, when a man armed with an automatic weapon opened fire outside the embassy, saying he wanted to kill Americans. Security forces shot him and captured him, without other injuries.

110. Intermittent Bystander - 17 September 2008

BBC and WaPo links on Yemen embassy in moderation.

Other news this am – both McCain and Obama are releasing new TV ads today on the economic meltdown. Ob’s ad is a 2-minute number, according to this AP report, which includes some details of his Hollywood fundraiser last night.

111. marisacat - 17 September 2008

New Thread………………….


………………………. 8) ………………………..

112. marisacat - 17 September 2008


I will add your comment on Yemen to the new post…


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